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SINN FÉIN LEADER Mary Lou McDonald has dismissed claims from former party member Peadar Tóibín who said TDs have “zero” influence over party policy decisions.
Tóibín told the Irish Independent that most Sinn Féin TDs are not permitted to choose their own staff members.
The Aontú leader also said key policy decisions are made by six or seven people, before being “handed down” to TDs, the paper reported.
Speaking to RTÉ’s Morning Ireland today, McDonald dismissed these claims against the party.
“That’s absolutely untrue, and so too is the actually bizzare allegation that somehow the Ard Chomhairle of the party is some sort kind of shadowy force,” she said.
McDonald and her party’s candidates signed a pledge yesterday to be guided by instructions from its ruling body, the Ard Chomhairle, the Irish Times reported.
“I can tell you elected members [TDs] have every influence and actually carry a huge responsibility to shape their workload, to deliver on their portfolio,” she said today.
The leader said she has a team of people including TDs Pearse Doherty and Eoin Ó Broin who “do that admirably”.
Sinn Féin will be launching its general election manifesto later today.
A recent Business Post/Red C opinion poll has suggested that the party is on 19% support. Fine Gael is on 23% and Fianna Fáil is on 26%, according to the poll.
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Out comes the lies and innuendos against SF. People who vote for FF and FG are happy enough for this country to roll along not caring about society but more interested in the banks and big business profit margins. I hope people can be brave enough to vote for a change, its long overdue.
@Sam Greene: I love how this latest guff emerges right before SF is ‘allowed’ onto our screens for the first time this election in a leaders debate. What an amazing coincidence!
@Sam Greene:
The dogs on the street know that sin fein
Are controlled from a small office thats not in the republic.
@Sam Greene: Well it was predicted by many on these pages last week, particularly after the jump in the polls, that this sort of dirty stories would start appearing in the establishment media.
She makes a good point there, do FG/FF and their media budies really expect people to believe Pearse Doherty, Eoin O’Brion and others are really working from scripts written by others every time they appear on TV and during debates?
Does Mickey Martin’s FF party not have a ruling body that makes the day to day decisions of the party? Perhaps FF’s one isnt called an ard comhairle, and maybe its members are appointed by Mickey – while SF’s one are democratically elected by the membership at its annual ard fheis.
I lost a bit of respect for Peadar there. It was a cheap dishonest shot that has only handed more poisonous amunition to the corrupt sisters of FG/FF.
@Larry Whelan: Correction Larry – you mean the dogs in the FG/FF Press office want everyone to know!
@Angela McCarthy: Wake up! Mary Lou couldn’t answer the question.
@Angela McCarthy:
“I lost a bit of respect for Peadar there. It was a cheap dishonest shot that has only handed more poisonous amunition to the corrupt sisters of FG/FF”
Peadar is/was very well positioned to make his remarks. If anyone knows how things work in SF it’s a man that was in SF for 26 years.
Anyway, we know that O’Muilleoir had to ask Howell for permission/consent on things in the north.
@plug’s ear: Oh look, another brand new Twitter account spitting bile about SF. Guess the FFG fraperooms are getting nervous..
@Pascal the Rascal: Play back the tape again, and see Mary Lou was cut short while answering the question and while Mickey Martin was in hyper mode shouting her down.
@Bernard Sweeney: didn’t seem to bother him all those years / now he’s out saying how awful it is. Coincidentally as they’re doing well in the polls.
Which is odd because aside from their abortion position he likely has quite a lot in common with the party.
Nevertheless it does seem like sour grapes tbh.
@The Risen: it was one of SF own that went to the papers about it. Typical SF answer though to blame FF or FG. Peader has a few more truths up his sleeve, the shinners should be worried
@Patrick O Connell: God what absolute drivel.
@Angela McCarthy: You had respect for Peadair Toibín?
@The Risen: All parties have Ard Fheis where motions re eg policies and policy changes,etc are voted on and have Executive boards& also Google Whip systems!
@Angela McCarthy: the Irish media are extremely left leaning and very fair to Sinn Fein from what I’ve seen! (Leaders debate excluded)
@Angela McCarthy: Is she allowed answer the question? Shes a puppet.
@Larry Whelan: didn’t Cowen and Bertie get their instructions from their Banker friends though
@Nuala Mc Namara: do you think every policy is decided at the Ard Fheis. Would it not be a broad policy and then the details hammered out at a meeting of TDS?
@Pascal the Rascal: and who exactly are you. New account with no followers.
@Larry Whelan: better than being controlled from a bank’s board room
@Angela McCarthy: And isn’t there a ‘Whip’,!!
@Bernard Sweeney: all party’s are the same they all show a united front in public any discussion is done behind doors , although saying that some of fg have come out with stupid comments over the year….
@Larry Whelan: it amazes me how so many ffg supporters know how sf works and yet don’t know that ffg are run the same , a td cannot just stand up and go against what the party decides even if they want to….
@Larry Whelan: stop being silly Larry.
@Peter donnelly: True but I think the point is that the people holding the whip should be elected officials. If people dictating the party policy are unelected that’s undemocratic, as they have no mandate
@Larry Whelan: Well it seems ffg are controlled by a load of civil servant’s and dinny
@Angela McCarthy: and mary loo didn’t shout anyone else down. Ask Mary loo about Maria Cahill. Ask all the Councillors who left the sf party because of bullying. Ask Mary loo about the pension age in NI. That’s not a party I want in government
@Liam Higgins: yes but many others do.
@Vin: how do you know who is holding the whip are you another one of those who know the inner workings of sf well if so you also will know its the same for ffg, lab etc
@Liam Higgins: well dont vote for them, carry on with ffg for another few years and see how quickly they renage on ALL their promises and how much it will eventually cost for the childrens hospital if they are still in power when its finished….
@Bernard Sweeney: Martin O’Mulleoir requested advice on a very complicated and convoluted situation in regard to RHI. The people he took advice from are very experienced and intelligent. If Only FFG had such advisors then maybe the new hospital wouldn’t be €3 Billion and climbing.
@Vin: FF Ard comhairle lists 76 names as members. 12 of whom are listed as elected reps. TDs or Cllrs!!!!!!
@M Bowe: Who is Ted Howell and why did O’Mulleoir send him this email in respect of the Rhi scheme: ” Would you [Ted Howell] be content if I [Mr Ó Muilleoir] were to sign off the business plan on Wednesday?”. Why does an elected official seek permission from an unelected individual? What are the implications here?
@The Risen: I’m fairly reasonable. Don’t need to spit vile about Sinn Fein their supports do enough of that
@Sim0n: Ted Howell is a very highly regarded and respected strategist and adviser (Leo pays several €100,000 + from public purse)to Sinn Fein.
I have never seen the quotes you make so can only have my interpretation of it, as you can have your own.
It it a question about timing?
Is it a curtesy/ confirmation of advice which MO’M is accepting?
Is it a request for further advise?
Is it asking permission?
Any or none of the above could be applicable.
@Dave Stewart: very true ..with a bit of luck some 1will get in and expose the fn lot of them
Cannot see how you can have a behind the scenes force (people who cheered the murder of Gardai) making decisions for the government running the same same state forces. No it’s not like the GAA, Mary Lou.
@Brendan Walsh: behind the scenes? If only. The man who collected the killers of Garda Gerry McCabe on their release from prison is an outgoing TD, these same killers went on to get a standing ovation at a Sinn Fein Ard Fheis just a couple of years ago.
@Connoroconner: If this is argument in 2020 then why is the UK/Britain a big if not our biggest trading partner import’s/export’s? I believe FFG and Labour have no problem trading with the Empire that previously murdered here…
See what I done there? I deliberately cherry picked facts to suit my argument just like you FFG and Labour fanboy’s are doing! Now try and be balanced with any comments moving forward.
McDonald and her party’s candidates signed a pledge yesterday to be guided by instructions from its ruling body, the Ard Chomhairle, the Irish Times reported.
Is this true? Why would anyone sign up to this, very strange indeed. But then FFG have the citizens assembly who tell them what to do and nobody elected the citizens assembly.,maybe not so strange after all.
@Honeybee: completely different things.
@Shazam37: Not to my way of thinking.
@Shazam37: By the way you said it yourself above ‘Is it right to take direction from someone who is not elected to the Dail’
@Shazam37: so it is true?
@Honeybee: the citizens assembly were not party affiliated, their recommendations weren’t binding, they were appointed fairly across society and educated extensively on the issues in an open forum.
If there’s now difference “to your way of thinking” then i suggest your reassess how you think.
@Sean Davies: I don’t know but MLMCD didn’t deny it last night. Which is problematic.
@Shazam37: which shadowy figures or body came up with the master decision to commemorate the RIC/Tans?
@Angela McCarthy: Christ what has that to do with anything?
The total lack of objectivity is just bonkers.
How do you expect ANYONE to take you seriously with that kind of claptrap.
@Honeybee: Mary Lou is President of the Ard Comhairle Executive which includes Pearse Doherty.Look up other parties Ard Fheis who are the governing bodies of those parties and vote on policies,policy changes,etc& they have also Executive boards elected by Ard Fheis.
@Honeybee: Sure majority of Ard Fheis members of other parties are not elected to Dail and vote re policies and policy changes,etc!
@Honeybee: because SF are the political wing of the IRA. The higher council control both, they haven’t gone away you know!
@Shazam37: she asnked a fair question and deserves an answer….
@Nuala Mc Namara: I can find a published list of FG Party Executive???!
A body which FG website states ‘ takes core organisational decisions for the party’.
Who exactly is on this. People like Frank Flannery who was named in Panama papers????
@Peter donnelly: no she asked an irrelevant question which had nothing to do with the
Topic under discussion. The question was also idiotic.
So now we know what was suspected for years Their ambition is a United Ireland and it does not matter how it comes about they haven’t gone away you know
Fine Gael controlled by one person , dob.
@Divad Nayr: Proof??
LOL! I’m sure we’ve all witnessed these ‘shadowy’ decisions…………being voted on live on national TV and streamed on YouTube every year at their ard feis.
@The Risen: Is it accurate that they agree to take direction from someone who is not elected to the Dáil?
Whether it’s a public election, televised or not, is irrelevant. Why should elected TDs, potentially an elected government be taking direction from some unelected chap from wherever?
@Shazam37: That is Sinnfein for you. One step away from a Putin like ruled state…
@Lar: They must be one step away from FFG so.
@Shazam37: What a woeful display of ignorance. SF policy is voted on and set democratically by it’s membership. The ard comhairle role is to ensure that the policy decided by the membership is implemented.
@Lar: yea you can park that rubbish too thanks. I’ve asked a fair and honest question.
I’m not interested in hearing sycophantic rubbish from SF diehards nor biased, blinkered and self serving bile from FFFG “I’m alright Jacks”.
@The Risen: Ignorance? It’s been widely reported that members have to agree to take direction from this person.
This person is not elected to Dáil Éireann.
So you’ll potentially have Ministers taking instruction from someone unelected.
That’s a very serious democratic problem.
@Shazam37: Ah yes, ‘widely reported’, wink wink.
@Shazam37: wrong again and you can twist this any way you or your leader want to. Does Leo or Mickey Martin not have advisers in Office?
And no one except FG/FF I Times are saying this thing about a pledge and directions. Truth and elections is like oil and water.
Whats next – Michelle O’Neil is really the norths Deputy First Minister. Shes just sitting in for some unknown scriptwriter, and I suppose the late Martin McGuiness didn’t really want to shake the Queens hand by was instructed to do so. Get real fella!
@Shazam37: So who the heck do you support? Don’t tell me it is the “I only do opposition” Richard Boyd Barrett…
@Shazam37: I don’t know if you heard Peader Toibin on newstalk this morning. He wasn’t sensationalist, he said he had seen no evidence of this army council control but he has seen the paid staff decide on policy and then tell the TD what to do. He said when he questioned it he was met with a shrug.
To think that every single policy is decided on in their Ard Fheis and that’s where all their policies come from is rubbish. Sure the Ard Fheis would go on for a month.
@The Risen: yes the front page of the Irish times counts as “widely reported”.
@Angela McCarthy: Mary Lou didn’t deny it Angela.
Advisors aren’t the same thing as someone TDs agree to be bound by.
It’s on the front page of the Irish Times and a former member is saying it so it’s a perfectly reasonable question to ask.
If they don’t agree to be bound by this person why didn’t Mary Lou say so?
@Lar: I don’t support anyone Lar. I’ve zero time
For your anti SF agenda because you’ve absolutely no objectivity on them. Nothing you say about there is worth listening too because you can’t by rational and reasonable.
The Risen clearly can’t be either.
You can’t undedstand why a non decided voter might consider SF given the state of the country. And Risen can’t stomach a reasonable question about who’s giving ML instructions.
So neither of you are worth listening to.
@The Risen:
All parties take their cues from somewhere. The problem is that FFG take their direction from the Multinationals and billionaires. None of those care about the well being of the Irish public. They want to bleed the Irish public, while they are facilitated by paying hardly any tax at all.
The less they pay, the more we have to pay.
@Shazam37: she was in the process of doing so when Mickey Martin was creaming in her ear on one side and the presenter moved on to the next speaker on the other. Play back the tape and see for yourself.
first though, you will need to change your FF/FG tinted glasses to see the true picture.
@Angela McCarthy: see here’s the problem Angela.
I loath FfFG. And I will certainly not be voting for either of them. SF are in my consideration but this I feel is a significant issue.
The fact that you simply cannot STAND a question being asked of SF without going “oh you’re wearing FfFG glasses” just makes me thing you’re all headcases.
It’s a perfectly reasonable concern – and anyone remotely objective with half a brain cell acknowledges that.
@Shazam37: Well a person that cannot make their mind up is near worthless. Another hurler on the ditch…
@Lar: I’ll make my mind up when I have sufficient information . Blind loyalty is not a useful characteristic – especially when it renders you incapabel of rational thought.
These aren’t football teams or GAA teams. They don’t deserve unwavering devotion forever.
I’ll inform myself and decide who I vote for thanks – like a sensible modern person.
@The Risen: I thought you don’t support the Shinners. However you comment on articles about them. Are you AFRAID to say you support them.
Go on – go on – go on!
@Lar: you have seen the carry-on of ffg over the past few years they ran a 1 party system although 1 of them was supposed to be in opposition while they jointly carved up the country totally destroying the health system building the most expensive hospital in the world and in the worst possible place, selling off everything we had oil ,gas, broadband all though they gave that away, supporting a supposedly independent broadcasting co who only give them support there are very few in this country who think rte is worth what we are expected to pay for , I could go on but I knowe you will only ridicule any thing I write as it doesn’t conform to ffg standards? ….
@Shazam37: so who is this fictional person if what you say is true surely that is a police matter….
@Shazam37: Mary Lou wasn’t asked about a ‘person’ but about a body of people openly elected as by grass roots at Ard Fheis.
@Peter donnelly: Apparently it’s the ardcomhairle – and why would it be a matter for the police?
@M Bowe: But not elected by the Irish people. Which is the problem.
Fair play to Peadar for putting up with such an awful situation for 21 years.
@Tom Thumb:
Scaremongering against SF is disenfranchising their voters. SF is the only real alternative to the 2 incompetent parties that have been legislating for the elite, while letting innocent Irish people die in an appalling health service.
FG & FF engaging the whip is directing their members votes, so this nonsense about SF directing their members to vote a certain way, is totally disingenuous and engaged in, only to do harm to a legitimate party. I look forward to the day when this disgraceful bias is challenged in the courts. That behaviour can be interpreted as trying to influence unfairly, the result of an election.
@Tom Thumb: And only now, 21 years later, in the throes of Aontu’s first GE he feels he’s had enough and can’t keep it in anymore. Spare me!
@John O’Hara: Youre a total crack pot.
@John O’Hara:
“Scaremongering against SF is disenfranchising their voters”
Good, hopefully they’ll eventually wise-up.
“SF is the only real alternative to the 2 incompetent parties that have been legislating for the elite, while letting innocent Irish people die in an appalling health service”
Wrong – SF is an alternative to the…..(a bad alternative – you want an effective tax rate of 65% instead of 53%[which will be reduced under FG?])
The Irish health service is nowhere near as bad as your hyperbole suggests.
“FG & FF engaging the whip is directing their members votes, so this nonsense about SF directing their members to vote a certain way…”
Really? – How do you square that with how Peadar Tobin was treated? Is Howell a made up figure and O’Muilleoir didn’t e-Mail him asking him for consent?
“That behaviour can be interpreted as trying to influence unfairly, the result of an election.”
SF (and most parties) all tell lies or half-truths to get votes ergo SF in this instance are as guilty as you claim FF/FG are when Pearse bangs on about his ‘fooley’ costed alternative budgets where one budget can correct the wrongs of the last 12 years. SF know full well than they’ll abandon everything in that and support FF or FG (if they ever got into bed together) and then will take credit for everything – they’ll engage in more revisionism by claiming credit for the fruit that will be borne in the next 5 years that was put in motion by FF/FG this last 3 years (give it time, it’s on the way)
I really can’t wait for the children’s hospital to open and everyone will see what a resounding success it will be.
@John O’Hara: was Peader himself not suspended from SF for not following the party line
@Patrick O Connell: In fairness that’s the whip system that exists in every party. It doesn’t make for good politics but without it how would a party keep any sort of single direction on policy. He was suspended for 6 months I believe at which point he choose to resign.
@Bernard Sweeney: ‘ The Irish health service is nowhere near as bad as your hyperbole suggests’ is not based on facts.!
1m people were on combined hospital waiting lists last year according to the Irish Hospitals Consultants Association.
Dangerous overcrowding in hospitals are leading to higher mortality rates in hospitals and there were 118,367 patients on trolleys last year.16% of surgical procedures had to be cancelled according to Royal College of Surgeons.,etc
Not enough consultants and nurses, doctors not qualified as consultants
have to fill in for Consultants, concerns from DPER over massive costs of agency staff,etc
SF policy is to introduce a new income levy on INDIVIDUAL incomes above €140,000& introduce a wealth tax on the wealthiest 0.25% in the State.
The Children’s Hospital is going to be be of the most expensive hospitals built in the world, massively over budget and still climbing!
The Department of Finance costs all the political parties budgets and Department told SF that their budget would also result in budget surplus!
COPE Foundation are concerned about the ongoing mental health crisis where eg waiting lists for children and adults with intellectual disabilities growing & warn of a funding crisis.Also Mental Health Reform said Government failed to address mental health crisis in Budget 2020.etc
I heard Toibin on Pat Kenny earlier. To be honest I was hoping he’d say there were shady characters controlling everything but he didn’t. He did however say that TDs are dictated to by paid staff members appointed by senior SF members. Surely that’s not democratic
@Jane: and how long was he a member for Sinn Fein happy to go along with these alleged arrangements exactly ?? When he was asking us to Vote Sinn Fein did he not think that maybe he should have been more open with the voters about the workings of the party then ?? Seems pretty disingenuous to be saying vote for me and my new unproven party but the last time i asked you to back me I wasn’t honest in how my last party I was with for 20 years was dysfunctional ??? Spare me.
@Dave Hammond: absolutely and his party wouldn’t be getting anything from me. I’m fairly sure he was one of those standing when Pauline Tully finished reading the letter from her incarcerated husband.
That doesn’t mean what he said isn’t true.
@Dave Hammond: money talks with politicians.
Usual pre election mud slinging
@MickN: exactly, try to cast doubt in the mind of the new SF voters because SF are now seen as a real threat to FF FG.
@Derek Lyster: Provisional SF are seen as a threat to democracy. The bleat on about be excluded, yet complain when they are put under the same level of scrutiny as normal democratic parties
@Stephen Kearon: Every member of FF/IMF should be in prison. Every time you write nonsense I’m going to counteract it.
Every election sees FFG and the media play their game of slate SF.
Wind of change is stronger than ever though and that was evident on the 7 way debate by Mehole and Liar.
Vote change,, Vote SF…
@Willy Mc Entire: It will be a change alright if you vote SF. We’ll be taxed to bits, no productivity, no incentive to work hard, no inwards investment, back to the 1980′s.
@Pascal the Rascal: You won’t be taxed any extra on anything you earn under 140,000.
@Willy Mc Entire: no real difference with SF. Same on most policies just spout more populous nonsense.
They voted for the bank guarantee too, but they fail to remember when dragging up the economic collapse and bank debt…
@Pascal the Rascal: it would be change, you’d know Pascal O’Donnaghue
@Nioe: they voted for water charges too before flipping
@The Risen: effective tax rate will rise from 53% to 65% – Pearse’s own figures, I’m sure you have a laminated copy to hand.
@Patrick O Connell: No they didn’t. You people seem to have very selective memories. SF came out on record as against both the bailout and water charges from the get-go.
@SJF: actually they didnt. They said at the time they would pay their watee charges and jumped on board after the first large march.
@SJF: look at your history, the shinners voted along with ff FG and Labour Party on that faithful night in September 2008 for the bank guarantee but again sf want to rewrite history
@Pascal the Rascal: Who will be taxed to bits, explain how someone on 40k will be taxed to bits…
@Patrick O Connell: So now the bank bailout is SF fault, lol is this all there is to throw, no wonder they are doing so well..
@Pascal the Rascal: Read their policies instead of making them up!
So the anti SF mud slinging begins in earnest! When you can’t deride their policies…attack the party…old tactic….I’m voting SF
@Ronan Skelly: pretty serious concerns by genuine voters. Is voting SF in allowing an unelected body run our country? Is there still members of the IRA in SF? It’s a yes to both from what I’ve read.
Sf worse than scientology
@Colm Curran: And the prize for the quickest to lose an argument goes to ^^^^^
@Conan Campbell: Its hilarious, worse than Scientology, a dark room of gangsters no ones knows controls them, they will tax workers to bits…. Grasping at straws is what I get from this…Desperation to throw anything and hope it sticks… But dont mention vultures hoarding land or renting out blocks of apartments and paying no tax, cervical, housing , health, insurance 3bn hospital and if they want to talk about men controlling parties lets talk about beef baron no1 or DOB…. FFG need to realise they represent the people and not vested interests until then they will lose more and more votes..
Why did Howlin cut across her when she was skewered on the lack of support for the Central Criminal Court. Got her off the hook.
The murderers of Jerry McCabe got off the hook because witnesses were intimidated. IRA/ Sinn Fein always opposed the CCC.
Now that it is the only option to convict safely the drug barons and Mafiosi thugs she still pulls her punches. Wants a review.
The party is under the the thumb of a clique living on the hog on peace process money and the proceeds of the Northern bank robbery.
Worse still homelessness and the NHS is in crisis in the North where they have been in Government. Check independent Northern Audit Office stats online.
A scary crew beholden to a hidden clique requiring pledges of loyalthy.
@David Glynn: terrible timing by Howlin, hopefully an error and not a strategy to lie down with the Provo apologists
@Stephen Kearon: just grabbing limelight .But maybe. He is too cute just to change subject.
Everyone in fffg got a family seat
@Margaret Kane: ah yeah, old Ashok Varadkar fixhed the road
Perhaps Michael Martin should explain the pledge all F.F. candidates have to make if they wish to stand for the F.F. party. Martin never referred it it on the leaders debate.
@Donal Desmond: Do all FG candidates have to sign pledges, against racist twitter posts etc? bla bla bla
The establishment and vested interests now getting worried about Sinn feins rise independent news papers running a vile orchestrated campaign yet again this is a company who had most of there debt from Aib and Boi written off to the tune of hundreds of millions by us the taxpayer while none of our mortage debt was written off this was all done to facilitate finegael sponsor and major benefactor of state contracts and licences denis (i live in portugal) o brien (Esat mobile licence granted by fine gaels michael lowry )
Unfortunately Brendan Howlin did the Irish electorate a great dis-service last night. Mary Lou was on the ropes explaing SF position on the Special Criminal Court SCC when he interrupted the debate and took it off in a totally different tangent. It was poor show by Claire Byrne to allow him to do so..
SF want dissolve the SCC …. no ifs , buts or maybe’s ..
Why, The SCC came into being in 1972 and driven by the troubles in the North and in its first 25 years it almost exclusively prosecuted the IRA, the INLA for terrorist crimes in this State. There were kidnappings , bank robberies and capital murders of both Gardaí and Irish Defense forces ( the real Oglaigh na hEireann).. basically the State was in danger in 70s and early 80s of potentially collapsing…
SCC helped a lot.
@XvSv: Since the 1990s it’s focused mainly OCGs. It done the nation a great service
Without SCC Veronica Guerin’s murders would never being taken down. The Gardaí and SCC have transformed Limerick city over the 10 years
The SCC is key future of Irish society.
At the weekend thousands of law abiding citizens marched Drogheda in a first effort to try and take back their town from a lawless organised criminal gang. If any of the these guys are going to be put behind bars for savagery they have inflicted , then the SCC is going to be a key element in cleaning up Drogheda and other towns and cities that controlled by OC gangs…. just as was done in Limerick.
SCC sits with 3 high Court Judges and No Jury. So OCG cannot intimidate the jury or witnesses to skew the court verdicts…
@XvSv: Totally agree. This is their soft spot where their lack of integrity and cult nature is revealed. A scary lot, albeit with some excellent politicians.
Cut the old guard adrift and then maybe.
@XvSv: I’m not against the SCC per se but I think the exclusion of the human rights perspective doesn’t do the debate on it any good. The UN and Amnesty International have both called for it to be ended. It’s a fundamental right that if you are charged with a crime you will be judged by a jury of your peers. There must be a way we can introduce a jury to proceedings but also ensure their safety. We can do this as part of an overall judicial review that also includes a debate on prison sentences fitting the crimes.
@XvSv: Finally Ireland with less 5M people and relatively small geographic area where most people knows someone means traditional witness protection programmes you cannot safely re-locate a family in Ireland in with a new identity.. you have no option but to send entire families to 3rd countries under a witness protection programs …
So a strengthened SCC is only real protection for Irish people and the Irish State to protect us from a few hundred people / families that are running the Organised Crime Gangs in Ireland..
If not we risk going down the road of Mexico which in the past 20 yrs has become the most lawless country on the planet even though they have 100s of thousands of Police , Militia and Soldiers trying to fight a war on drugs that they should have stopped 30 yrs ago.
@Conan Campbell: have you any suggestions on how we would keep witnesses safe. Say for example the current crisis in Dundalk. How would you keep a jury from being intimidated or worse? It sounds so reasonable ensuring the accused have a jury of their peers to decide their fate but these guys don’t have peers. They have set themselves aside from normal people and so now they need to be treated differently from normal people.
@Jane: I don’t Jane. I wouldn’t profess to be the expert on it. Maybe the jury can be chosen randomly across the country and participate in the trial by one way video link, or a variant of that. I understand there is now a growing call to allow the word of a Garda Inspector hold more weight in a trial. I’m not anti Garda Siochana by any means, but have we forgotten the level of corruption that reached the highest levels of our police force a couple of Commissioners ago. It’s reasons like that that a jury is so important.
@XvSv: David Culnane said SF not abolishing the Special Criminal Court & it would be used re drug gangs.Reform is needed as UN Expert has criticized the SCC system.
Sentencing needs to be overhauled and I think also Free Legal Aid.
Prevention of crime and stopping children and young people joining gangs need urgent attention.
Gardai need to be fully resourced for community policing,etctime and again extra resources given after a tragedy,crime.
@Conan Campbell: I can fully recall now but wasn’t there legislation that the senior gardai can use electronic surveillance and recordings that could be used in court or has that been changed?Don’t they do that in US?
@Conan Campbell: Well if you say the SCC has to a jury then you are arguing against the SCC . Its not unusual to have 3 judges and no jury sit in judgement, the French Court system and many others a cross the EU use a similar system for Organised Crime and Terrorist offences.
In Limerick for 20 yrs, 4 families ran the city , 70K persons even though it had 500xGardaí in 1990 when Dublin had 1500 back then. It was the most highly policed city in Ireland . Not alone were witnesses and juries being intimidated , the Gardaí own families were being intimidated. 2009 , after Roy Collins Murder & Shane Geoghan shot dead in a case of mistaken identity , the State acted. It moved SCC to Limerick for 2.5yrs brought Gardaí in from outside Limerick… and they convicted about 12 key people …
@XvSv: The key Gang Leaders are serving sentences of 20-30 years. Limerick city has transformed at least in terms of OC gangs .
All this was principally enabled by SCC . The Gardai know very well the small number of people responsible of running and controlling OCG in Ireland … but knowing it and proving are too different and they do get the proof they need to convict these guys , the OCG try to intimidate both jurors and potential witnesses and sometimes even local Gardaí or usually their families…
The guys don’t really care about the UN charter of Human Rights or the very worthy intentions of Amnesty International.
Ireland has a solid judicial system and if any these convicted OCG members feel they wrongly convicted we have a Crimjnal Appeals Court and FreeLegalAid.
@Nuala Mc Namara: Sinn Fein have being consistent on this policy for many years , they stated time and time they to abolish SCC. This plain and simple fact. But because of the Drogheda situation in the past 2weeks SF have started to back track … and are saying they are to a Review . The General Election threading water speak for saying nothing …
Be under no allusion they want SCC abolished because it put the former Sinn Fein colleagues
In portlaoise prison … and that is the simple plain facts of the matter.
It doesn’t really matter what David Cullinane might have said …….its what is the expressed public policy of Sinn Fein Ard Chomhairle it states and has for many years , is to abolish the SCC.
@XvSv: Nula ; Sinn Fein just published their GE manifesto inside the past hour . Under the heading Crime / Justice there is no mention of their position on SCC….. zero
If SF wanted to clarify their position on SCC this was an ideal opportunity. Yes they say they want more Gardai , but hey who doesn’t , they say they tougher sentences for drug related crimes. Which is all fine , every law abiding citizen would concur with these policies AND all of the other parties are promising the same.
But the key lynchpin for Gardai & the DPP in nailing Organized Crime Gang operations and convicting them and putting them away for 20+ years is what SCC does .. the normal jury trial courts simply don’t work for OCG offenses…
So let’s put myth about SF and SCC to bed . SF want it gone..
Explains the about turns by Macdonald. Says one thing one day and then the complete opposite the next. It’s not a good nights sleep that’s doing it. Good to have a suspicion confirmed by somebody who knows how that party works.
Scaremongering again from the establishment appealing to the “I’m alright Jack” crowd. Who influences the policies of FFG which have caused deaths due shambolic state of public services ? Hospital waiting lists, homelessness. Plus it says a lot the priorities of those in power when greyhounds get more funding than some badly mental health services.
@Nigel Hayden: the possibilities of election influence those policies in the first instance – as we’ve seen with LV promising more spending and tax cuts.
Once in power large vested interests largely influence FFFG it would seem.
Unsatisfactory as that is it’s a helluva lot different to members agreeing to accept all instructions from one unelected body.
Is this not the same as the party whip in the other parties, six or seven ministers around a table making decisions and then getting the whip to make the rest of that party vote that way
Had a sf canvasser call to my door, asked Qs regarding their election manifesto, his answer was that he was “down south” for the day canvassing and didn’t know and told me to look online.
And there is one of many reasons I dread them getting into government!
@Bleurgh: so you are telling us SF canvassers knocked on the door of the FG Press office looking for your vote?
pull the other one. My answer to you is that’s a load of ‘Bleurgh!
@Angela McCarthy: fg press office? Have never voted for them! I am telling a fact that happened 2 days ago! I respected the sf candidate in my area, until this. I question all candidates canvassers regarding their party policies and to be just told “I don’t know I’m down south for the day helping with canvassing….check the manifesto online” to me is a blatant disrespect to voters and constituents of my area
@Bleurgh: I find that very hard to believe
@Shazam37: why? I can give you the time, date and constituency. Dublin central, Sunday afternoon. I wouldn’t have believed it if someone told me, but, it shows the lack of respect the sf candidate has for their constituents
I doubt you’re reading this Peadar Tóibín, but this is very disappointing. I held you in high regard as one of the politicians that wouldn’t lower himself to this sort of electioneering lies. I had Aontu on my radar because I agree with you on the 8th. (I’m not religious in any way before I get hounded by the usual suspects). But now you can’t be trusted.
@Conan Campbell: maybe hes telling the truth?
@Connoroconner: Who knows who’s telling the truth anymore. For me it’s just the timing. He’s kept this little nugget under his hat for 21 years and BAM! pulls it out the week before an election. If he is telling the truth I’d now be more concerned with his integrity for keeping quiet for 21 years because it suited his agenda during that period.
Let’s be very clear. Nobody that has directed or taken the life of an innocent person should be part of the government. SF supported the campaign of violence. The “war” as referred to by Republicans produced war criminals we need to know that they have no part to play in SF. To intentionally kill innocent people is an abomination and cannot be conveniently forgotten by the electorate today.
Their innocent victims were not watching last nights debate or indeed enjoying some Netflix as their lives were taken away from them by criminals.
@camio55: tell that to the voters who don’t listen to all that crap anymore. Its very last century!
@camio55: have you checked out all ffg credentials ? For starters flanagan appears to support the black and tans were not some ff politicians not involved in gun running to the north when the troubles started or are you suggesting sf should of sat back and done nothing to help their people and if you like to go back further all partys were involved in some way or other in the fight for independence either for or against….
Lol
@T Dawg: SF by high water mark in polls for last election was 20%…no improvement…loony economic policies.
@SF Knee Knockers: Looney if you earn over 140k, brilliant for the majority who dont earn near that
@SF Knee Knockers: What particular policies,?
Give a link & debate them so!
Sinn Fein certainly is a toxic brand. There are enough parties both on the left and the right without voting for people who justified murder.
The fact that they use verbal gymnastics to avoid using the word “Northern Ireland” (despite the nearly 1.5 billion Google hits for it) for example, means that either all members need speech therapy or else everything they do and say is.controlled.
@Supreme Enchantment: Yawn fest from the unidentified troll.
they are called advisers, all ministers,tds, and Taoisoig have them.
@Sean Shanahan: no other parties TDs agree to be bound by their advisors recommendations.
It’s not the same.
@Sean Shanahan: no one else has a terrorist army council acting as puppet masters
@Stephen Kearon: don’t be so dramatic,that’s you being sucked in by fffg propaganda,it’s yours and many other people’s mindset.
The times they are a changing get over it.
@Sean Shanahan: Stephen was a special adviser to the FF government that brought Ireland to its knees in 2007.
https://www.thejournal.ie/former-dick-roche-aide-snaps-up-fianna-fail-nua-website-ahead-of-berties-pal-47865-Nov2010/
@Conan Campbell: Stephen has always believed in the FF way of cutting spending on pensions, welfare and public sector pay to fatten the pockets of wealthy FF benefactors.
https://www.thejournal.ie/married-employed-full-time-income-of-e55000-e75000-55092-Dec2010/
@Stephen Kearon: Wait so you were an advisor to the government that crashed the economy…. Really… ? You cant talk if thats the case you have many suicides on your hands..
nah, if in doubt leave them out .
Deviate from the course = 6 month suspension.
Morals of conscience = 6 month suspension.
TD vs councillor = censorship for TD 6 months suspension for the councillor.
Yeah sure. You all have your own minds.
@LUCY Thomas: what are “morals of conscience” – a bit Makey Uppey?
Its great though. When Peadar was an SF member ye in FF/FG thought he was the devil like all SF’rs, but as soon as he left and told a few porkies on radio, ye now think his a great principled fella!
If that’s the case then Peader is admitting that for 26 yrs he was nothing more than puppet. In that case then he is nothing more than a Muppet & a bitter one at that.
From Wikipedia
The First Dáil (Irish: An Chéad Dáil) was Dáil Éireann as it convened from 1919 to 1921. It was the first meeting of the unicameral parliament of the revolutionary Irish Republic. In the December 1918 election to the Parliament of the United Kingdom, the Irish republican party Sinn Féin won a landslide victory in Ireland. In line with their manifesto, its MPs refused to take their seats, and on 21 January 1919 they founded a separate parliament in Dublin called Dáil Éireann (“Assembly of Ireland”).[2] They declared Irish independence, ratifying the Proclamation of the Irish Republic that had been issued in the 1916 Easter Rising, and adopted a provisional constitution.
There wouldn’t be Irish people governing Irish people in sight of the other nations and God Almighty if is was not for Sinn Fein.
So I find it vulgar and absurd that other political parties look upon Sinn Fein with disdain.
And I have no shame in accepting every aspect of my country;s cultural history and that very much includes Sinn Fein. And I think they Fianna Fail and Fine Gael should do they same. Respect each other and then you will also be respected. It is a universal law.
@Stephen Kemmy: I don’ t think a Wiki summary can enscapsulate our very complex history particularly around that time… yes it’s factual and largely accurate. but many historians have tried to tease out what might if happened at the birth of our independent nation if different decisions were made at various points along the way between 1916 – 1923.
@XvSv: But what is also true is the SF of recent times are not the SF of 1905 founded by Arthur Griffith… there have being many splits over the years.
So all three main political parties of today can legitimately claim the common heritage of the first Sinn Fein lead Dáil Éireann
1. The pro-treaty split gave us SF and Clann na Gael , CnG became FG in 1933
2. DeValera split from SF in 1926 founding FF the majority of TDS left SF to join him.
3. 1970 SF split into the Official SF. and Provisional SF . Official SF became the Workers Party which split into Democratic Left which turn merged with Labour in 1999
4. Provisional SF came into it own the 1980s particularly after Hunger Strikes in 1981/82… and soo. after it dropped “ Provisional” tag.
Who is real the SF of 1918 ?
@Stephen Kemmy: Deluded
Since when are ff & fg tds speaking their own mind?
Perhaps Catherine Noone should have signed a pledge
Please take a moment to have a look at the profiles of all these Shinner Bots. Just saying………
See the Journal at it again censoring comments as it’s ok to berate and demonise Sinn Fein because they are on the rise . But call out FF/ FG with there corruption stretching back over the last 40/50 years and your comments are removed .
More selective Journalism from the Journal
and disgusting behaviour stopping freedom of speech from the author Orla that is at the epicentre of good journalism .
I am going to break the stale redundant cultural mold of the two F’s and give my vote to SF.
They cannot be any worse than the other pseudo Republican politicians.
And of course we should all first and foremost give ourselves “the vote”.
As Aristotle says…you and I here now talking is being politician.
If know one else is doing a good job at representing your interests as a people then maybe you need to represent yourself. Most people do by emigration.
I think only those Irish people incapable of leaving remain, or else those with a die hard belief system of never ending hope. So I am going to but my hope in Sinn Fein !
@Stephen Kemmy: Due to sacrifice of our forefathers we thankfully live in one the most democratic countries in the World , so you are more than entitled to vote for Sinn Fein . But please refer to my brief history of SF re-your earlier comment about SF .
SF however do not have the right to refer to other main political parties , FF , FG and Labour as “pseudo” republican parties . Do you know the definition of what being a Republican is .. if not check Wikipedia as you did earlier.
Connolly executed in 1916 , a founder of Labour. Collins was leader Clann na Gael following the treaty split and De Valera and FF were ALL part of original SF party and they or many of their comrades died fighting to establish this Irish Republic.
Lab ,FF, FG supporters all cherish our Republic.
@XvSv: Yes the forefathers who were men true and sincere to ideas and who believed beyond man too.
It was I and I alone who referred to the Republic as pseudo and not because it is but more from the point of conspiratorial cynicism. Sometime I wonder if it really is true today to what forefather intentions.
Then why are Sinn Fein vilified and spoken of in a derogatory manner by the other parties.
If Labour, FF and FG all cherish our Republic then it does not seem that they cherish all the people of Irish equally. For example a single man can only qualify for social housing when he is 55 or in some cases 65 years of age.
Says Mary Lou from a pre-prepared statement!
They, tge TDs, are at the same game again tonight on tonight show blaming Joan Burton for increase in pension age which she says, imposed by trokia but it was td elected Kenny taoiseach who chose to follow Lenihan statement to Dail on 10,12*10 to administer deal and voted on legislation need to increase it.
None of them are talking of repealing that act that increases pension age.
Nor are they talking of making election of taoiseach subject to min lay before Dail charging public fund with interest payments on that deal they said in eleven Dail wld send back.. So seems to me they are all playing same card as FG that they get mandate that govt admin the deal and, now has pension funds to deal with exceptional circumstances and they td get paid
And the others have party whips, which keep their members in line…
have your say