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HOUSES OF OIREACHTAS authorities are seeking clarification on whether or not Sinn Féin TD Pearse Doherty will be required to pay back €8,000 in travel expenses which he put towards hiring constituency workers.
Controversy arose last week when it was reported by the Irish Independent that both the Doherty and fellow Sinn Féin TD Padraig MacLochlainn had used surplus travels expenses for paying staff in their constituency.
In Doherty’s case he used €8,000 left over from €33,000 he received for travel and accommodation last year for the purposes of employing two part-time workers in his Donegal constituency.
A Sinn Féin spokesperson said that Doherty had been told by Oireachtas authorities on Friday that they would not have an issue if he retrospectively used the €8,000 to pay off the cost of buying a car recently.
However, a spokesperson for the Oireachtas told TheJournal.ie that they were still seeking clarification from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on whether or not this could be done.
Sinn Féin said that if its finance spokesperson has to pay back money then he will. Doherty did not immediately return a request for comment.
MacLochlainn is now examining his expenses with suggestions from Sinn Féin that he was told by Leinster House authorities that he could have been claiming money he hadn’t been.
The party said it does not expect its foreign affairs spokesperson to have to pay back any money but if he does then he will.
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The shinnerbots are very quiet since this story broke the hypocrisy is unreal from within SF.
shinnerbots,,robots do what there told FG/L/FF…TRY Fianna Failures.. Fine Bailers ..Nil-More Party..yesbots
I think this story could bite back against the Indo. What appears to be the case is that an allowance is being used to employ someone else. Most allowances usually end up in TD’s bank account or behind the bar at one function or another.nThe hypocrisy here is that, despite everything that has happened in this country, TD’s expenses are still unvouched for. You have to ask yourself why is this so? Why not produce receipts for accommodation and petrol? Because it doesn’t suit the governing parties or their cronies before that, that is why.nnIt is a simple answer to the issue of allowances – hand in a receipt.
Wrong plain and simple both should resign in shame . If the money was required for the purpose then it was taken wrongly and immorally . Doesn’t matter what he was doing or what hack they were after , is it ok to rob a shop if I give it to charity ??
@ Stephen Downey – they do have to keep receipts and a paper trail. The problem is that they have unlimited expense categories, they can nearly live off the expenses and put their salary into a savings account.
@Stephen Downey
Agreed. I mentioned in another article of journal.ie that it should be the law, just like private companies, that all journeys, lunches, petrol, car parking fees etc. etc. should be paid through proper receipts. These receipts should be checked by the Wages Department before paying out. I really cannot accept that these people feel that they are above everyone else and different to many people like them that have to hand in receipts for expenses.
These monthly expenses, some more than EUR2,500 month should be stopped immediately. If these people, so called representatives of the electorate that put them there, can give half of their salary away, yes, for a good cause, their salaries should be reduced. Yes, I know some of them are well educated, and have 3rd level education (good for them) and probably are entitled to good salaries, but for the sake of children and the unskilled, surely they should at least look into the expenses of these people.
Bloody con men.
Looks to me like a hypocritcal attack from FFg/Labour through their mouth piece the Indo has backfired.
The most sickening part of this entire story is that a Dail TD could manage to use 8,000 euro of an expense allowance to take someone off the dole, while the rest of the TDs sitting in the Dail used every grubby dirty penny of unvouched expenses to fund their Ivory tower life-style.
When are we going to see an end to the corruption in the Dail. Why dod FFg/Labour/FF insist on paying themselves over 50k per year unvouched un-taxed expenses. Are their salaries not enough to see them through, like every other normal person in the country?
And by the by….
Journal link from April really shows how twisted and sick the allowances fiasco in the Dail is.
http://www.thejournal.ie/oireachtas-committee-to-scrutinise-tds-new-expenses-regime-416658-Apr2012/
@Cal1: It’s not his money with which to “take someone off the dole”…! Simple as…
And quit your conspiracy theory/ victim complex stuff too please; the Indo spent 3yrs mercilessly attacking Fianna Fáil & now frequently also attacks the Govt. SF is open to the same level of media scrutiny as any other party without branding all critics “anti-SF”.
In all fairness and in the interest of parity, FF kept an awful lot of 5 star hotel staff “off the dole” queue with “their” expenses.
PAW… FF managed to return 0.5% of their entire unvouched untaxed allowances between ALL of them last year.
Did Doherty not use the money for the betterment of the country (taking someone off the dole). This saved the Irish tax payer.
What constructive work did ANYONE in FF do with ALL the money they used up? Tell me one thing, other than feather their own nests.
By the way, FFg were almost as bad, they only returned 2.5%.
SF returned 3.9%
Tell me, what did anyone in FF/FFg do with all that money? Have they receipts to prove that they didn’t just pocket the money?
If there is no accountability (and you guys created the system) then its a pureley corrupt method of putting 50,000 euro per year into your own pockets. Prove me wrong, show me one of the FF members recipts for last year
Doherty published his expenses on his web-site every month in the last 12 months. Check it out.
He wasn’t using the money for personal gain, unlike his FF/FFg counterparts.
@Dermot: And we paid the price for it politically. And now SF should too.
@Cal1: It’s. not. his. money.
Its not FF or FFgs money either. How the hell are they spending all of our money like that every month? Can they prove they are not pocketing it???
Let me answer that for you… NO
They can’t and wont ever publish how they spent OUR money. They returned damn all of it anyway, and you can be damn sure they didn’t take anyone off the dole with it either.
@Cal1: Stop deflecting!!
It’s the taxpayers’ (Exchequer’s) money.
If Pearse wants to donate all his salary to SF party coffers, that’s his right. That’s his money.
He may not donate his expenses to party coffers.
Yeah Paul, FF paid the price politically for their greed and financial incompetence, the rest of us however pay the actual price, it’s disgusting to even think that your buddies in FF who milked the expenses cow for all it’s worth, spent money that wasn’t theirs on perks, jaunts and many other ill deserved privileges, the people who ruined the country are still living in the lap of luxury.
Yep, I agree. Corruption is bad. And Pearse Doherty should be investigated for his putative corruption.
PAW, its our money that FF/FFg are putting into their pockets every month using the unvouched corrupt expenses.
Why did you guys introduce it? Please, tell me, where in Gods wisdom did FF think it was the right thing to do for Ireland…
Or do you mind me being a little cynical and suggest, it was FF looking to maximise the amount of money that the greedy little thieving gits could get for themselves, without breaking the law.
If I am wrong, then prove it and show me one of the FF TDs who didn’t return any of the 50,000 euros expense list and receipts for the year.
And FFg/Labour can’t hide behind FF’s cloth. They have been in power over 12 months, and guess what, Kenny increased hos own expense list this year.
Aw sure, I know… When SF messes up, it’s “the system” that’s at fault… Always…
He funded his party machine with taxpayers’ money. That’s not OK!!
If anyone else did it, from any other party, you’d be screaming “corruption”!
(And I agree about unvouched expenses btw… They were brought in initially for when receipts weren’t attainable for TDs from different parts of the country, but those days are long gone!)
You don’t realise it Cal1 but right now your defending the indefensible which is exactly the same attitude that seen all those people you listed above abuse the system for so long. When do we draw the line or will we always just say ‘ah yeah but they done it too’. It’s about trust and peoples faith in politics and leadership and right now SF and you be being hypocritical and further putting politics
sorry meant to finish that off as …are being hypocritical and further dragging politics into disrepute.’
So, lemme get this right — he defrauded the public of €8,000. When caught he promised to repay it. Now he’s trying to see if he can get away with NOT repaying it after all.
And this, in your world, is it “blowing up” in his CRITICS’ faces?
Jimmy/PAW and even to Hugh O’Connell….
No-one in the media has suggested Pearse Doherty is corrupt. As has been pointed out on the previous Journal articles, he has broken the Oirechatas rules on how he could use his unvouched Dail allowances.
He publicly declared every month how he was using his expenses. That is NOT corruption. Corruption is defined as follows
“In economy, corruption is payment for services or material which the recipient is not due, under law. This may be called bribery, kickback, or, in the Middle East, baksheesh. In government it is when an elected representative makes decisions that are influenced by vested interest rather than their own personal or party ideological beliefs.”.
No one can claim Doherty was trying to conceal what he was doing with is expense money. The same cannot be said of all the FF/FFg TDs who do not declare how they are using their expense money every month.
Gents, if i were you, i would be very careful about how you suggest Doherty is corrupt
As per PAWS quote below:
“Corruption is bad. And Pearse Doherty should be investigated for his putative corruption”.
Cal, you just posted a definition of corruption that made no mention of secrecy whatsoever to ‘prove’ this isn’t ‘corruption’ because Doherty allegedly didn’t make much of an effort to conceal it.
Your own definition says: ““In economy, corruption is payment for services or material which the recipient is not due, under law.”
In other words, corruption includes obtaining payment for staff for your political activities which you are not due, under law. Which, you see, includes making false travel expenses claims and then using the money for self-promotion and political ends. So, yep, this was corruption all right.
Agreed Torkeel, and so is putting 50,000 euro per year into your expense account, with no accountability. This is what FF/FFg/Labour/ULA/SF and the independents are doing every month.
Doherty, if he was as cunning, dirty, etc as the other TDs, should have kept his mouth shut, and publicisied how he was spending Tax Payers money. The rest of them are spending more, and not telling anyone how they are spending it. Which is worse?
Did I say corruption? No, but Oireactas rules state that travel and accommodation allowance is only to be used for travel to and from leinster house and the public reps constituency aswell as providing accommodation in Dublin. Once you attend LH 120 days of the year you get your max allowance which for Pearse was 30k+ for the above. Now if your not using it for its stated purpose as a public rep you have a responsibility to return that money. It’s taxpayers money. Not yours. You don’t hire workers with it, that’s what your public rep allowance is for which he claimed the max for too. You don’t buy a car out of it because that’s taking the mick and you don’t play the innocent by claiming you didn’t know any better when you are one of the people screaming from the rafters about breaching of the rules. What he done was wrong. Face up to it or I’ll have a litany of similar stories soon enough about your guys to fire back at you.
Peter, did you deliberately leave out the end of the definition?
“In government it is when an elected representative makes decisions that are influenced by vested interest rather than their own personal or party ideological beliefs.”
Because, if you only use selective parts of the definition, then ALL TDs are the same.
“corruption is spiritual or moral impurity or deviation from an ideal.”
People are supposed to only use the expenses that they need to get to and from work every day. The 50,000 allowance is supposed to be maxed out only in extreme conditions and not part of the course, like FF/FFg are doing.
And this looks like a hypocritical attack on FF by someone trying to defend the indefensible. Fianna Fail knows where they went wrong, and of course they were punished for it. SF must face the consequences as well without blaming someone else for the problem, as usual
I quoted the relevant part. The bit you’ve quoted there doesn’t support your assertion that because Pearse didn’t hide this very well that makes it not corrupt.
To take that last bit
“In government it is when an elected representative makes decisions that are influenced by vested interest rather than their own personal or party ideological beliefs.”
So when Doherty, an elected representative, makes the decision to take €8000, to pursue his vested interest (his own personal political promotion and advancement) he was being corrupt then? Good oh, glad you agree.
(And that’s leaving aside the fact that any definition of corruption that doesn’t include fiddling your expenses is simply wrong — so even if were to find such a definition somewhere on the internet, it would simply prove the definition wrong, not Doherty innocent).
Folks,
Can we all agree on one thing:
Every TD should prove that they spent their unvouched 50,000 euro in the last 12 months and have done with it.
I am sure they would have credit card receipts for the nights they stayed in Dublin, right? Otherwise, they are not returning money to the state that they should… Correct?
If not, you are a shower of hypocritical party faithful.
I have said Doherty broke the rules. He was the one who highlighted on his website.
Now, either you are really in support of full transparency and compliance with the rules, in which case, EVERY single Dail TD on unvouched expenses must show credit card receipts for their accommodation costs in the last 12 months, or they are just as guilty as Doherty.
What logical argument would there be against this endeavor, for openess and transparency?
By the way, as i mentioned above FF only managed to return 0.5% of all their expenses, and FFg only returned 2.5% of theirs. This is going to be a very interesting open…
If you don’t agree with me, you are hypocrites. If you do agree with me, i am sure the journal would be more than willing to pursue this for us :)
I see you have updated your definition of corruption Cal :)
http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-minister-found-guilty-of-religious-discrimination-495007-Jun2012/
Care to post a link to where you got your new definition from by the way. Considering your statements on the link above, it’s somewhat amusing that you are now advising others to take care when accusing Pearce Doherty of corruption.
Here you go:
Enjoy the read:
http://www.planningtribunal.ie/images/finalReport.pdf
Mahon Tribunal Link:
Page 97- Cllr Marian McGennis (FF)
Page 977 Cllr Marian McGennis (FF)
Page 995 Cllr Colm McGrath (FF)
Page 1030 & 1034 Cllr Olivia Mitchell (FG)
Page 1035-1036 Cllr Tom Morrissey (FG)
Page 1037 Cllr Ann Ormonde (FF)
Page 1050 John O’Halloran (LAB/IND)
Page 1066 Pat Rabbit
Page 1072 Theresa Ridge FG
Page 1092 G.V. Wright (FF)
Page 1166 Mr Albert Reynolds and Quarryvale
Page 1216-1261 Liam Lawlor
Page 1267- 1373 Bertie Ahearne (FF)
I think when you have read all that, you will understand that corruption is defined as someone who takes money from vested interests to maximise their own personal gain, at the expense of others.
Now, either you are really in support of full transparency and compliance with the rules, in which case, EVERY single Dail TD on unvouched expenses must show credit card receipts for their accommodation costs in the last 12 months, or they are just as guilty as Doherty.
Eh, no.
You see, that isn’t what the rule is. Doherty broke the rule. You are now inventing new rules to try and excuse Doherty.
Your new rule is good. But it isn’t the rule that’s there.
http://www.planningtribunal.ie/images/finalReport.pdf
Thanks for the above. It doesn’t actually contain a definition of corruption, and while it is indeed a shocking display of gombeenism, has no relevance to the topic under discussion.
Are you trying to prove that some of the people named in the Planning Tribunal were corrupt? I don’t think anyone disputes that.
What has this got to do with Pearce Doherty?
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2010/en.act.2010.0033.PDF
Since we are arguing legal definitions…
To all my FF/FFg/Labour detractors here ….
If you read the article, you will see that YOUR party colleagues are bending over backwards to try and accomodate the 8,000 euro expense issue that Doherty broke the rules with.
Why are they doing their best to try and classify the 8,000 mis-use?
Because they want this story buried as soon as possible.
Why do they want the story put to bed as soon as possible?
Because, if the expense issue is delved into too deeply, they will all be found to be pocketing their expense money.. QEF
Why are they concerned about being found to be pocketing the 50,000 per year?
Because when the truth comes out, they will be forced to invoke ALL recipted expenses going forward, and that will be the end of their gravy train.
Mark my words, they will find a way to allow Doherty to expense the 8,000 euro under another heading to ensure the money keeps going to their own pockets.
Actually Cal, only 3 Fianna Fáil TD’s claimed any unvouched expenses which is why the return is so low (going from the spread sheet that appear in thejounral.ie). In future (through internal rules brought in by the party), all FF public reps shall have to vouch all expenses so the return from next year will equal 0%………as there would be none to begin with. There are ways to twist figures to try deflect the argument all you want however the fact still remains that Mr. Doherty and Mr. MacLochlainn have broken the rules and had this story been about any other party, you would have been among the first posters here calling for their resignation and decreeing them crooks.
Personally I think every politician should have to vouch all their expenses. This, complimented with a ban on corporate donations, a register of lobbyists and annually published accounts by all parties would do wonders to clear up the image of the body politic in Ireland. Also, the loop hole on foreign fund-raising should also be closed.
Eoin,
Why are FF/FFg/Labour TDs all bending over backwards to try and accomodate the 8,000 euros then. If they have nothing to hide, why are they not looking to censure him and asking him to resign from the Dail???
Something stinks to high heaven.
This story is about them not being satisfied with his account of where the money want and pressing him for answers. How is that “bending over backwards” to bury it?
Anyway, on your other point, much as it annoys me I don’t think you *can* retrospectively demand expenses receipts – it strikes me as an abuse of someone’s rights to unambiguously tell them they don’t need to keep certain paperwork and then introduce retroactive penalties for not having kept it. The ‘unvouched’ system should never have been introduced in the first place and should be immediately gotten rid of but there’s little that can be done about the period where it’s in place.
Peter, join me now in pushing for the unvouched system of expenses to be eliminated.
We as a country are being fleeced by our elected representatives.
But, i am guessing, there will be no stomach for it in the FFg/Labour Government. Its like Turkeys voting for x-mas.
We heard Pat Rabbit yesterday say that the Government ministers have taken too much pain already when it comes to pay cuts.
Brendan Howlin I think that was.
I remember when I was a young lad, my mother sent me to do some shopping with a 20 punt note. I did my duty, got the shopping, but with the change I bought some comics for my own personal satisfaction. When I got home my mother asked me for the change. When she found out I bought comics I got a right aul trashing. She told me what I did was wrong. I tried to defend my actions by telling her that my brother, when he did the shopping for her the previous week he probably bought comics and that she never asked him for the change. When she heard that I got another sound trashing, for trying to defend my thievery and for trying to pass some of the blame on someone else. For some reason Cal’s many many posts here brought back that childhood memory. For feck sake Cal, at least when the waffle of FFg’s David Higgins gets found out for the nonsensical spin it is he goes away (for a while), but when it comes to defending Sinn Fein/IRA you just go on and on and on and on…. you are not convincing us. Are you trying to convince yourself? I think shinnerbot of the month award goes to Cal.
FF/FG moral watchdog mode activate…….
As Louis Brandeis said, “sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants”…
The Oireachtas seeking clarification is a good thing, if only to give Pearse to give a chance to clear his name.
PAW, as i mentioned above, Doherty published his monthly expense account on his website every month last year. That is how the issue came up about his using some of the money (670 euro per month) to take someone off the Dole.
Have FF or FFg done anything similar… ie publish how they are using their FULL allowance every month to get to work?
Deflect all you like…
Pearse is being investigated now for donating not just wages to party coffers (while claiming to be on the “average industrial wage”…) but his expenses too.
“taking someone off the dole”… Never heard such SPIN in my life!
He used taxpayers’ money to fund his party machine!
@ mooney at least he did not waste the money on ink cartridges like someone else from S.F. , !!!!Hold on a minute, whats going on here , is there a connection here ?
In case you are feeling lonely:
Ivor Callelly : http://www.thejournal.ie/in-pictures-ivor-callely-leaves-dublin-garda-station-after-being-released-338120-Jan2012/
And the mother of all of them
Moriarty Tribunal Link: http://www.moriarty-tribunal.ie/asp/detail.asp?objectid=310&Mode=0&RecordID=545
@Cal1: You can deflect all you want, but all this says is that you’re OK with corruption when it’s from a Shinner but not from anyone else…!
He used taxpayers’ money to fund his party machine. That’s not excusable just because he “took someone off the dole”. It wasn’t his money. It really is that simple.
“He used taxpayers’ money to fund his party machine.”
I’m sorry Paul but FF member should never use the words taxpayer and machine in the one sentence, it opens you up to cynicism, derision and a reminder that one of your members used an awful lot of money which wasn’t his to fund a pet project.
@Hugh O’Connell :
PAWS comment: “@Cal1: You can deflect all you want, but all this says is that you’re OK with corruption when it’s from a Shinner but not from anyone else…!”
Again, i will say to all… Doherty declared publicly on his website every month what he was using his unvouched expenses for. This does not meet the corruption criteria. Breaking expensing rules YES, but it is clearly not a deliberately corrupt effort on his part. Please be careful how you bandy that word around. On the other hand, please read the links above for ACTUAL corruption articles relating to the party of Destiny.
Sad to see this whataboutery from the Shinners. Shameful.
He admits he spent it on employing someone, this is and was not allowed. If you are going to do ‘off standard’ things with public money, you need to inform yourself in advance of what is and is not permissible. Just as ignorance of the law is no defense, ignorance of the rules is no defense here either.
Retrospectively deciding you actually spent the money on something else entirely when you are caught out breaking the rules makes a mockery of the whole system.
He should return the money.
The defense that he is taking someone off the dole is a complete nonsense. It is not his place to decide how and on whom public money is spent. If taking someone off the dole is a good reason to hang on to money that is not rightfully yours, I could just decide not to bother paying tax and instead spend that money to hire a cleaner a couple of days a week. Quite properly, I can’t do that.
He used taxpayers’ money to fund his local party machine!
Typical Sinn Féin duplicity. Their average industrial wage claims etc do nothing to reduce the burden on the states finance. They use it to pay for their political activities.
Yeah, the cheek of them…they should be using it to buy fast cars, bespoke suits, holiday homes, holidays abroad, jewelery………………………………………………………………….
Just hillarious. If this was a Government/FF TD the usual crowd would be all over it like a plague of locusts. But because it’s one of their own there’s deafening silence and deflection away from the incident.
As for Cal Mooney’s repeated posting of articles about other parties’ abuses, weren’t we being told constantly how SF was above all that. So is the new argument “if you can’t beat them join them”?
And no FF/FG/Labour person ever staunchly defended their own when they were found to be quite liberal with expenses claims??????
Heh. It’s getting to the level of some surreal comedy now:
Jim: SF supporters don’t seem to have response to this except whataboutery about other parties
Dermot: But what about the times other parties’ supporters didn’t have a response except whataboutery about other parties.
@ Peter
Indeed!
The Shinners here seem to be adhering to the old British Army adage: our boys right or wrong.
What about Jim and the rest of the red thumb brigade actually replying and stating that defending the actions of a TD is the sole preserve of SF…you may have noticed the question marks?
Point of information Dermot. I did not red thumb your comment.
I do not red/green thumb comments any more. To me the option is a childish thing and I have repeatedly suggested that the Journal remove the option. If somebody has an opinion, positive or negative, I think they should express that in a written way rather than just clicking an icon.
And I’ve made my point very clearly as far as I’m concerned. SF have constantly tried to occupy the high moral ground when it comes to salaries and expenses. But evidence proves that they are just as venal as those they criticise.
Well the one good thing coming out of the party being funded from taxpayers expenses money is at least they don’t have an immediate need to rob any more banks to fund the party!
Nah. They just rob the taxpayer instead.
Why are we being asked to subsidise his car?
Because he’s worth it?
The hypocrisy is outstanding, I can only stand back laugh at the pitiful silence, but here goes my reading of the story…..
1) Shinners on the ground admit to breaking the rules.
2) SF HQ denys this.
3) Doherty claims to be taking someone off the dole with the money.
ISSUE:- Money is not his to use in that way as it has come from the public (Supporters of all political parties, independants and anarchists). He is not allowed use this money as quite frankly I don’t want my taxes being used to fund the SF party machine which has appeared to have veared into the realm of fictional press releases.
4) Doherty admits this was incorrect use of the cash and states he will pay it back (interesting that he has €8,000 lying around on the “average industrial wage” … I don’t know anyone on the average industrial wage with €8,000 lying around but that is neither here nor there).
5) Doherty states he used the cash to infact buy a new car, thus it had nothing to do with taking anyone off of the dole all !!!!
There you have it …. the full circle!! It’s the circleeeeeeeeee, the circle of lies…….
BTW, my post is about Pearse Doherty, please keep it on topic…
I 100% agree …
Every TD should prove that they spent their unvouched 50,000 euro in the last 12 months and have done with it.
I am sure they would have credit card receipts for the nights they stayed in Dublin, right? Otherwise, they are not returning money to the state that they should… Correct?
David you have laid out the facts very well. Cal has got his knickers in a knot trying to defend the indefensible. I do not want my money (I.e. his expenses) to go in any way toward the SF party machine.
Spot on, well said.nnWho’d have thought a Sinn Fein TD would ever be so loose with the truth? Shocking really.
McBab, do you agree with my suggestion or not??
If Not, then please in Gods name tell me why you wouldnt want to know how FF only managed to return 0.5% of their expense money, FFg only managed 2.5%…
Do you really care how the money is spent every year?
Cal1, we agree with you, but right now we’re talking about Pearse Doherty and what he’s doing with his expenses.
Mainly because, well, he’s breaking the law and now he’s lied as well.
If it was anyone else from anyother party he would, as is his way, have gone running to the courts at this stage, it’s just ironic to see him trying every trick in the book to avoid the judiciary.
David, when did he lie … He put the expenses up every month on his website for the last 12 months. The Indo only ran the story as an issue last week, when SF introduced the Bill to repeal the Household Charge.
Obviously they didn’t see it as an issue for the previous 12 months he was publishing it for all to see.
It sickens me that FF continue to use up 99.5% of the unvouched expense allowance every year. Do you not think they must be corrupt as hell, hiding what they are doing with their allowance? Or would you as a FFer think its OK to do this, without any explanation?
So, what you are saying is that, it is OK for Doherty to incorrectly draw expenses while non SF people are not? Just stop being so hypocritical. The general consensus is that all expenses should be vouched, although SF might not be in favor of this seeing as half of their wages and god knows how much of their expenses goes towards funding their Party Machine
I used my expenses to take someone off of the dole… actually….. NO I DIDN’T!!!
That’s a lie Cal1….. that’s a lie.
As an FFer I’d like to see Pearse Doherty put up in front of the courts for breaking the law, and not only for breaking the law, but then lying about how he used the cash, consistently, for 12 months while putting it on his website. So not only did he lie to us non shinners, he lied to his own constituents and party members as well.
I believe, as an FFer, that there should be more openness and transparency into every aspect of our TDs Councellors etc. There was corruption in Fianna Fail there is no denying that, and we inside Fianna Fail are working to put into place struvtures within the party that will never allow this to happen again. I do agree that expenses should be published.
However, I believe that, not only should they be published, they should conform to the laws of the land and not be open to a change of mind period… unlike those expense documents released by Pearse Doherty on his website and the national newspapers.
Cal : “It sickens me that FF continue to use up 99.5% of the unvouched expense allowance every year.”
That is a lie Cal. FF use 99.5% of the expenses claimed, both vouched and unvouched, each year. It just so happens that as a party the 19 FF TD’s have the highest number (percentage-wise) of deputies that have vouched their expenses. You are deliberately mis-representing facts to try deflect from Mr. Doherty siphoning off public money to hire someone to help him do his constituency work and further SF electorally.
I would much prefer if the money Doherty, MacLoughlinn and Aonghus (lest we forget, the appauling waste of tax payers money there for local SF use) was used to hire a couple of teachers/nurses/gardaí and not an SF party hack.
Just thought I’d point out that every TD claims an allowance from the state to employ a secretary. Most TDs, especially those living outside the GDA, have 2 secretaries, one for parliamentary business and one for constituency basis. They are only reimbursed for one and must pay any additional staff out of their own salary. They cannot pump any of their salary or expenses back into their party coffers (if applicable) as this is illegal, fraudulent and highly regulated by the SIPO commission. SF have this great line that they only take the “average industrial wage”, this is the biggest load of waffle ever recorded. Fact of the matter is that their respective P60s look absolutely identical to that of any FF/FG/L TD. They choose to repeatedly flout the law in regards to the provisions laid out to them by SIPO and have done for years. SF are not the angels they appear to be.
Also, just thought I’d point out, in the case of Pearse Doherty “taking someone off the Dole”, the people in question wouldn’t get much more if they were in fact still on the dole and what he’s actually done is used tax payers money to employ someone who was on benefits which are in turn paid for by, wait for it, the tax payer…. Just saying, its a bit of a catch 22….
Great post Gemma!
Just resting in my account.
@cal1 Could you not just make your point once, and move on?
It’s a little annoying seeing the same thing posted again and again, especially because your point about widespread abuse of the system is taken – nobody is disagreeing with you about that.
Katie, what issue you disagreeing with me then? It would be great to see it explain.,
i have already said Doherty broke the rules, but the hypocrisy of FF/FFg on this thread is breath-taking.
Good god, man, you’re actually over on another news story on this site *complaining* about a non-SF TD who’s giving half his wages away to charity to pay for a teacher in a school. While in this one falling over yourself to argue mitigating circumstances for an SF one who misappropriated thousands of the public’s money to spend on his political staff.
You must have some sort of special hypocrisy gland in action that the rest of us can only dream of.
In fairness to Cal he wasn’t complaining about Brendan Griffin.
When there are no rules on expenses, this is what we waste time on debating. There were no proper preceedures for FAS, Rural TD’s and other quangos. If this lot were running a business with no proper proceedures they would have failed long ago. Make the rules on expenditure (including expenses), publish them and then take immediate action on those who abuse privilages…
€33,000 for expenses just shows how wrong this country is. They should pay their own expenses/travel to work like normal people. Double standards
Barry, its worse again … FF claimed on average 55,000 euro expenses between 2011-2012.
55,000
They returned 0.5% of that as un-needed.
The entire system was designed by FF and is supported by FFg/Labour as a means of topping up their already exorbitant salary. And they do not need to provide ANY receipts. The only reason this story broke was because Pearse Doherty publicised what he was doing every month on his web-site
The rest of FFg/Labour/FF are cursing him, becuase this may end up stopping their gravy train. But funnily enough, i think that FF/FFg/Labour are going to find a way to allow Doherty to write off that 8,000 under another expense item, to avoid having a big inquirey into the whole system
That is seriously sickening. The system is designed to maximise the amount these thieving gits pay themselves, while not breaking ANY rules, so they can’t legally be called corrupt.
The entire system needs to be addressed.
The Dail sits for 177 days a year. At 100 euro per night in an hotel, that works out at 17,700 euro. These robbers are getting 50,000 a year.
As is Doherty! If he feels that strongly about expenses then why doesn’t he introduce a bill to the Dail to scrap unvouched expenses?
Cal you’re hilarious.. the reason this is a story is because he lied about what he was spending his expenses on ….
Thomas: The average expense rate for FF is 55,000 … The average expense rate for SF is less than 50k.
So, can i imply by your posting, that FF are more corrupt than SF?
Cal1, travel expenses are awarded based on how far one has to travel to and from Leinster House so you’d have to account for that, for example Micheál Martin travels from Cork City, Gerry Adams travels from Dundalk, naturally Micheál Martin’s mileage is higher and as a result it costs more for him to get to and from LH therefore, he gets higher expenses. Plus when you account for the fact that there are more FF TDs than SF TDs, then obviously simple mathematics would suggest that the FF average would be higher. Its not an accurate measurement I’m afraid. Plus it may interest you to know that FF gave back more money in terms of unused expenses than SF did, for example, Micheál Martin gave back over €3000 whereas Gerry Adams gave nothing.
Cal, again you are twisting facts here to fabricate a lie. Fact is, all of FF TD’s come from outside Dublin and therefore receive more expenses as they actually travel further. SF have quite a few in the GDA and therefore should have a much much lower average expenses claim. At the end of the day 3 FF TDs did not vouch their expenses. How many SF TDs did not vouch theirs? Stop twisting this and spinning it to look like this is not about SF and answer the facts of this case. If Doherty knowningly and willing did something illegal with state funds under the SIPO (2001) legislation should he not resign? That is “if” however. The man should be given due process to clear his name and the entire facts of the case should be revealed first. (And lest anyone forget, ignorance of the law in any area is not a defense).
How can people, supposedly on basic industrial wage, afford houses in, Donegal, 6 counties, Dundalk and some owning a 6/7 bedroom with electric gates in Dublin 7? Just asking.
If its actually true that he took someone off the dole with this then I don’t see the problem. I could be someone just trying to get some experience so they can get a full time job elsewhere. It’s not like he spent it on himself.
He also tried to buy a car for himself…
True but he could of just claimed the lot and said nothing. The rules should be changed so every cent is accounted for.
What really annoys me is how their spin machine tried to claim that using taxpayers’ money to fund the party machine is excusable because he “took someone off the dole”.
Also hate how they constantly blame “the system”.
He DID spend it on himself. It’s being spun like crazy, but Doherty hired staff whose job it was to look after Doherty. When you do that, that’s spending money on yourself.
So if I rob a bank and use the cash to hire a cleaner for my house is it ok because I took someone off the dole? Oops is it ok to mention bank robberies in a thread about SF?nnJesus Cal, if I had your powers of evasion I’d be out fighting crime.
No you wouldn’t :-D
Yet another side show !!!! Real issues please. There are people starving out there. Get off ye’re asses and do something constructive like create jobs.
Ignore corruption?
Embezzlement or fraudulent conversion…take your pick.
and we all have the party tit for tat and its forgotten about and we move on. last week it was mick wallace and whats been done, NOTHING! I am still trying to get over 50 grand in expenses nevermind unvouched, there are old people on trollyes in hospitals while these lot stay in hotels.
Just under 10k a year on the dole per person – and he got two, albeit part timers for 8k – he should be our Finaince Minister !!
I’m glad it’s a SF expenses story today, it gives the FFG contingent something to complain about, all them other stories about the decrepit state of our education and health services under the FFG/Labour stewardship are kinda hollow without their self righteous indignation.
Well if you’re going to have a holier than though attitude as a Political Party…. you better actually be a party that is Holier than thou!!
I think your apparent conviction that SF supporters shouldn’t be, and aren’t, concerned about this as much as anyone else says rather more about SF than it does about anybody else…
Indeed David, I don’t know if your assertion was intentional but yes, there’s no point FF/FFG or labour scoring points off SF when they themselves were…and are… a complete travesty of a government rife with expense abuse, nest feathering, cronyism, nepotism and overall incompetence.
:P
You’re speaking in riddles again Peter but go ahead, read into my comments what you will and i’ll just state my conviction that the FFG/Labour posse are always absent from threads involving…oh I dunno….the rise in numbers of people on hospital trollies…………strange thing that…strange but not suprising
i think Pearse Doherty will not be too worried about most of the comments on here ..looks like most Fianna Failer defectors to Fine Bailers are blowing off some steam after been shafted by their own respective partys .The days of been proud to think that been a supporter of a party in government might give you some kind of advantage in life are over and unless your a wealthy banker or are in the esteemed golden circle and i mean not just playing golf every sunday and pooling together with your buddies to buy a crappy speedboat then your in the shite with the rest of us ..say Goodbye to middleclass Ireland wit FG/FF/L governing ye and i suppose when it finally dawns the likes of Pearse Doherty will have to fight for ye too even though ye despise him…met alot of people who taught they were smart and rich there handing back the keys now and wondering why they voted for the unified party that is FF/FG/L ..it will all come crashing down ye’l only realize when its too late and come runing to a party that cant do jackshit because the middleclasses and so called intellectuals left it too late ..keep worrying about the Pearse Doherty scandal ye craturs..
Yes that’s the smart man. Lambasting everyone else while sticking up for Pearse, defender of the little guy,……………who is taking your money out of the exchequer and therefore directly responsible for the cutting of front line services all so he can pay a couple of people to help him get re-elected. A true champion of the people is Mr. Doherty! Jesus, have you ever read such condescension from someone to whom basic spelling and grammar are too far of a stretch?!?! The Shinners have been shown up consistently as the most devious for fiddling the system of them all and not only that but openly flaunting the law in doing so. Paying staff from your travel expenses is ILLEGAL, get over it. Your blue eyed boy is now forever tainted and the dark-shadow of criminality that SF have done so much work to try and ditch over the past decade is very rapidly catching up with them all over again. Ignorance of the law is not a defense. The hypocritical nature of SF posters on this site and others is mind boggling. Not even one of you can honestly say that if this TD was in FF, FG or Lab that ye would not all be here in force calling for their resignation! Instead, you’re all on here trying to defend the indefensible. Either he broke the law and paid people with tax payers money he should have refunded to the exchequer or he lied to everyone about what he did with it and instead tried to buy a car on the people’s dime. Which is it?
who,s your party cratur,,oh and i bet you went to college ..so jeaous well you didnt learn much about wtf is really going on..who’s your party cratur
and you think he tried to buy a car with your money ..haha bet you drool over the sindo dick in hand having one off over The Pearse Doherty scandal..you should be looking at your own blue eyed boy because h’s going to shaft you too..just on here defending a man i believe to be honest couldnt give a shit what your saying to be honest and not going to spit the same shit just for green thumbs..time will tell would you agree ..and because my grammer isnt good i have to listen to academics like you had enough of their waffle to be honest ..
who,s your party cratur
There are some things the average industrial wage can’t buy……. for everything else, there’s Expenses :-)
It’s the Sinn Fein way …. that’s your party.
it is indeed let me guess all the pretend neutrals back the policies of Dear Leader and hate him for it but hate sinn fein even more because they might just shake things up.. as i said time will tell
if i get one green thumb il be sickened ..
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