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ERNIE O’MALLEY was a senior Republican commander in Co Kerry during the War of Independence, and later the Civil War.
He was also a historian in the making, who interviewed a number of his fellow fighters after the conflict collecting first-hand accounts.
Many Republican survivors of the two successive wars were reluctant to talk openly about their experiences, with many holding secrets even from their own families.
But they were more comfortable talking to O’Malley, who recorded all the interviews in notebooks. His son Cormac O’Malley, along with Tim Horgan, has now collected the interviews for a new book, The Men Will Talk To Me.
Here, two men remember incidents – a raid on a key barracks, and the brutal killing of prisoners – from the fighting in Kerry.
Tom McEllistrim was a farmer in Ballymacelligott who joined the Irish Volunteers in 1915. He led the attack on the Gortatlea RIC Barracks in April 18, and remembers it here. Later a TD, McEllistrim died in 1973.
This was the first real attack. Six of us met in a little hall in Ballymac: Jack Cronin, Maurice Reidy, Tom Mac, John Browne, Richard Laide, John Flynn. We planned to take the barracks by surprise. There were four RIC men in it. We had information that the door would not be locked. We knew that two men went out on patrol. We put one man near to the barracks, right on the railway station to watch the patrol go out; and then he told us when they had gone out.
We waited near the post. It was about 10 o’clock and it was quite dark, so we moved on to the barracks. I walked up to the door. I had a flash lamp and a revolver in my hands. Jack Cronin was behind me and Browne and the others were to follow. When I turned the door handle, I found that it was locked. I knocked and someone inside said ‘Who’s there?’ ‘’Tis me.’ ‘Who are you?’ I said, ‘’Tis alright. Come on and open,’ for the locals often knocked on the door and went in.
And he opened the door. We had masks on us for we were all well known to the police. I was at once to push past and get on in. As soon as he saw the mask, he got startled, but I pushed in past him and the other man in the kitchen made a dart for the room door but I got across into the room and he was trying to close the door against me. I stuck my foot in the door and we had a pushing match at the door for about three seconds. I pushed up the door on him and as I did, the door banged down again and we grappled. He was unarmed and he was an old man. We were tumbling about in the darkness in a very small room and I fell on top of him.
Just as it happened, Cronin burst in the door. He had a double barrelled shotgun and he put it on the RIC man. He put up his hands. I looked into the kitchen and I saw our lads below forcing the other lad to put up his hands and they had. We didn’t want to spill any blood.
Ernie O'Malley, who interviewed the survivors (Mercier Archive)
The rifles were up on a rack. I lifted down a rifle and put it on a cupboard, when all in a sudden, a shot rang out. I whipped round and I saw Browne wheel around and fall in the kitchen; and in three seconds the floor was covered with blood for he had been shot through the head.‘What was that?’ I said. Moss Carmody and I went down to the kitchen and I saw him putting up his shotgun and he fired at the door.
And as I said, ‘What’s that?’ I saw a police cap at the door but the shotgun missed. As I knocked, the 10 o’clock train steamed in. The station was only 15 yards away and we heard the noise of the engine. ‘Could there have been military on the train,’ we now thought. There were five of us inside the barracks, and what would we do. Our course then was to fight our way out and that was an awful setback for a crowd of young lads. We lifted up Browne and we brought him out with us, and also we brought out a new shotgun with us.
Before we went out, there was whispering and Cronin walked up. ‘We’ll shoot them lads now,’ he said. ‘How can we shoot them,’ I replied, “with their hands up?’ and the RIC were in terrible fear. Browne was dead, but we got out without any shots being fired at us. We got to the railway, threw off out masks and were lifting him when three or four shots were fired. We dropped him and we fired back.
They had seen us getting into the barracks and they had ambushed us from the outside. Laide made an attempt to rush in to tell us they were in the station and Sergeant Boyle shot him in the back with a revolver as he came in. Laide got away and he lived only two or three days for the bullet had gone into his stomach. So we had two dead men.
The two funerals were on the same day, but there was no raid made by the police. The police had made their report to suit themselves. They wiped up the blood from the floor inside. They said that all the shooting had been from the outside by us.
Michael Collins (marked with a cross) leaving Dublin Castle with Kevin O'Higgins and WF Cosgrave after the surrender of anti-Treaty forces in 1922 (Tophams/Topham Picturepoint/Press Association Images)
John Joe Rice was born in Kilmurray and worked on the railways. He joined the Irish Volunteers in Tralee in 1914, and led Republican forces in Kerry during the Civil War. He was later active for Sinn Féin, and died in 1970.
We lasted longer in South Kerry for the Staters had to come at us in big bodies. There were 700 to 800 of our lads in gaol in the end, but there only 70 to 80 active column lads amongst them. We kept the Staters on the go. We got a share of arms from GHQ. GHQ told me that they wanted to help the fellows in the North as the British had the numbers of the rifles which they had handed over to the Provisional Government. I collected 80 or 90 rifles in Killarney to send them on. And the division told me that they had a number of rifles in Mallow for exchange and I got them, but I didn’t give any back for them.
The first Free State army in Kerry were local men. Very few of our lads went F/S and only six or seven of them were of any importance. The best of the men stuck where they were. The Free State garrisoned towns.We got a power of stuff out of Kenmare, a couple of hundred rifles we got.
The brigade was nearly half the county. It extended from Castleisland to Kenmare and it had five battalions. We had very good fighting ground in our area, really impossible to round up in some areas. The Staters landed at Kenmare Pier. They had The Dublin Guards with them and men from the First Northern Division, a fine lot of blackguards they were.
They were getting it tough, and they had no local crowd to hold the area for them. They had bad information, for they jailed men at the beginning who would have been on their side. They came by boat to Kenmare to Fenit. They swarmed in from all sides, for we had a huge coastline to hold. Reen Pier, at Killorglin, at Cahersiveen. Beating of prisoners at first.
Neligan shot John Connor who joined the Free State afterwards. He was a youngster, not of very good class either. Neligan fired a bullet into his chest. It went out and went in through his arm.
Neligan presided at all the beatings and torturings. Hancock in Kenmare did not act like a rational human being. Wilson who was in Kenmare and in Killarney was very bad. Soon the medium changed from beating to shooting.
The blowing up of our men was an organised affair. Stephen Fuller is still alive. Coffey in Killarney survived. There was a coffin handed over to Fuller’s people with his remains for they thought he had also been included in the scraps left of other men. He ran away under machine gun and rifle fire and got over an eight-foot gate. His cap had three bullet holes in it, his coat was holed but he was not wounded, but he had scratches. Fuller was blown over a road into a field and he found a hand tied to him. The men were roped in a circle, a mine was placed in between them, and it was exploded.
The Men Will Talk To Me, edited by Cormac O'Malley and Tim Horgan, is available now from Mercier Press priced €17.99.
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@The Journal, getting slightly concerned at the amount of anti-public sector articles and polls that are appearing on your page, the agenda of your editorial view is lacking in objectivity, beginning to show perhaps a personal bias held by an editor? Lets get details on Ireland’s top 50 companies and the allowances they offer staff or does that type of journalism require too mucn effort and actual research?
Owen I think if a private company was already bankrupt and being supported by outside money the shareholders of the company would be demanding the answers that you are requesting! For now it is our country that is bankrupt and every business that throws money around on allowances and pay rises like our government is already gone!
Grow up. What I see is that thejournal.ie runs articles that shows up the stuff that every sector and political party would rather keep quiet about, even Sinn Fein at times.
Public sector workers are paid out of everyones taxes, plus billions in borrowing that will be paid by our childrens taxes. So they have even less right to be immune from the mirror of the media, as you seem to be demanding.
“Public sector workers are paid out of everyones taxes”
As opposed to those countries where public sector workers AREN’T paid out of everyones taxes?
Which countries are they again neil?
TooTrueleft you seem to have missed the point of what he was saying and just focused on an point that you have misinterpreted! It doesn’t make his point any less valid!
What do salaries and allowances in private companies have to do with us? Do we pay mandatory taxes every week to them to pay their salaries too? Or do they support themselves through sales to public and innovation?
If we privatised the whole public sector tomorrow, 90% would go under within few years due to horrible customer service, sub standards, costing and efficiency levels.
Why has the journal committed three articles already today about wastefulness in the civil service if it is only restricted to a small number in high positions? Have a look in the private sector too, in that case. Might make your hair stand up… Public expenditure figures are in the public domain. Private expenditure figures are not. Go figure.
The public sector spends our money. The private sector spends theirs. Cop yourself on.
Our taxes pay the allowances of the public sector that’s why it’s newsworthy. What private companies pay their workers is a matter for them and their shareholders.
Examples please….
Well said,John Turkey .It’s our money that the state is spending.The amount that the top guys in the state get is way above European levels.
Ah ruairi your at it again,the truth hurts its about time all the waste was laid out on front of us
The difference in the private sector is we generate out own profits or not and we live or die by it ,whereas on your bubble you still have an expectation to your entitlements even though the tax take had collapsed.
Wake up,my staff all had to take a 20% pay cut and some weeks I don’t even take a wage,but you still think your entitled
@ Mel: The dogs in the street know that the Irish private sector by and large generates SFA apart from grants, subsidies, massive tax avoidance (‘our money’ too) internships (aka free labour) and a lot of self-righteous twaddle.
Ireland does not have a large public sector by European standards. The original question is perfectly valid: why the obsession with public sector waste, while thejournal.ie ignores the flagrant waste on the private sector?
The Private sector spends money it generates through sales which are by and large volunteer to the general public. The Public sector is paid for by state coffers using mandatory taxes. In most EU states Public workers are paid 20% less then private sector due to job security and pensions, in Ireland for no apparent reason they’re paid 20% more?
For what a 3rd world health, prison and education service? A Civil Service who had never once implement a major project on time and budget???? Who constantly make hair raising mistakes? I personally cant think of single public sector area run properly and efficiently.
If those in the public sector dont pay their wages then those in the private sector loose their jobs.
Everyone needs healthcare and education so public sector is essential. Not everyone needs restaurants and clothes shops. You pay us then we pay you. Public needs private needs public…..
Bearing in mind these guys have some of the highest salaries compared to their peers in Europe (and in the world): how can these people claim travel expenses when we all have to pay any kind of transport to get to work…? How is this allowed and accepted????
Travel expenses cover expenses incurred WHILE carrying out your duty, not getting to and from work.
TD’s get paid for travelling from their home to the Dáil…. I am sure they can afford it on their fat salary…. Don’t you think….?
I agree. However, there are 290,000 public servants (the people who this article relates to), there are less than 200 TDs.
sure there sales REPS ??? and they keep their teachers job and pension , on top of all the pensions they accumulate , wonderful job, no wonder the family runs the show,
with all the fathers sons uncles cousins in the dail
How come “former” private secretary’s are getting paid an allowance? Last time I checked ‘former’ meant no longer involved. How can someone get an allowance for something their not doing?
What does the machine allowance cover?
It seems that The Journal is operating a Kevin Myers style attack on the Public Service this week, so many “articles” attacking the sector. In reality these allowances are small fry, and as said by others, no comment on the expenses and allowances that run high in the private sector. I have worked in both over the years. and as a simple example from my days in the private sector, when travelling on business, tickets were always First Class, because it was expected that the company’s status deemed it necessary to travel that way. As a public servant today, every expenditure has to be vouched for, and I have known Managers to check thoroughly any mileage claims using the Internet Tools so easily available. That never happened in the Private Sector.
Allowances were paid in my private sector employment for exams, where you worked (large town allowance), and nobody seems to get on their high horse in the media about that. Maybe the Journal should look at allowances paid to Journalists and Editors, and their expense accounts….
Private sector companies can pay their staff what the like. It’s not taxpayers money.
That’s right, unless it’s a bank or a building society or a business who borrows capital from one of these, or a semi-state company…….
When the public sector gets off the gravy train the attacks will stop
Paul, 70% of public sector workers earn less than the average industrial wage and 40% of them make less than 20 grand.
Funny sort of gravy train that requires you to claim family income support to put food on the table, isn’t it?
Your figures fall apart when you consider all the Ps workers who job share or when you add in the value of their guaranteed pension
Guaranteed pensions don’t put food on the table now either Paul. My brother recently left his job as a nurse to go work in the private sector as he could no longer make ends meet following the 15% pay cut. In doing so he lost his public service pension.
@Paul @Too Trueleft The guaranteed pension that Paul mentions is, for the 70% less than Avg Ind Wge, only a very small top up on the contributory state pension. Even if you include their (now taxed) lump sum they will never come near getting back what the have paid towards it.
@Liam @Owen
This article is in no way anti-public sector or an attack on the sector.
TheJournal.ie covers matters which arise from parliamentary questions on a regular basis, and this is another one of those matters. There is no bias and no indication or inference that any of the allowances are not justified. These figures are now in the public domain as a result of Seán Fleming’s parliamentary question and the figures are now being reported on.
Thanks, Emer
Emer, I appreciate what you are saying with regard to this article, on a stand alone basis. However, as a regular reader of your (mostly) excellent Journal, a number of articles in the last few days, the sick leave one as another example, seem to be focused on the Public Sector, and certainly pander to those who feel justified in belittling those who work there, see the comment above from @Paul above re gravy trains.
The vast majority of public sector workers do not receive these allowances, nor do they take “fake” sick days, and despite what many believe, do not receive “vast” salaries, By all means expose those who abuse the system, be they TD’s, Permanent Secretaries, or Garda/nurses/clerical staff, but, in my humble opinion, this type of article, and the others currently being discussed, allow the many to be tarnished, for the sins of the few.
Thats the fifth similar article today. The Journal is covering these particular parliamentary questions in some detail…
Wow.
Is the article attacking the allowances the PS get?
No, it’s just showing the facts.
What’s your problem with the taxpayer seeing what they are paying for?
@Liam I understand your frustration, but the comments section does give you a right of reply to such comments, just as it gives the original poster the right to make them.
I was merely responding to inference of bias or agenda on behalf of TheJournal.ie. I have compiled two of today’s stories on the public sector and I can personally assure you that I have no such bias or agenda.
Thanks for reading,
Emer
Its the private sectors blood sweat and tears that pay the salaries of ALL public service workers, regardless of their grade, not the other way around. People are entitled to the full facts of where their money is being spent. The public sectors blood sweat and tears doesnt have any bearing whatsoever on private sector salary and pensions and therefore not newsworthy. And we also find out today that 5 Limierick councillors are to be given an extra 12000 euros for chairing a few meetings.
You do, however, frame your approach to said parliamentary questions with specific regard to the public sector, your poll today regarding sick days uses the example of the public sector before the private sector is mentioned and this message is compounded by the article above, you select parliamentary questions with this bias in mind, I know it’s quick and easy to do so and that your content must also move at pace, but,to be frank, it is lazy to copy and paste an editorial line on a daily basis…..
There is really no need to be attacking the messenger. Emer is doing her job and to infer that she is lazy is disgraceful. I’m sure Emer, like most Journal staff, are at their desks working well into the evening, unlike public sector works who dont work a minute past 5 o’clock unless they’re paid their overtime rate.
Yeah – I’ll take early retirement if I can have me job back next month!!!
But this is the same as a prominent tabloid that said that all Gardaí were entitled to a huge amount of allowances. I’m pretty sure a Garda on the street is not allowed to receive an allowance for Dog Handler and Air Support, but that doesn’t sell papers and cause this divide between Public and Private. In the boom the Private sector worker made a hell of a lot more money and benefits. But it’s recessionary times again so let’s blame front line PUBLIC Servants and lump us all in with the Civil Servants. If I added together every social welfare allowance available and said everyone on social welfare was entitled to the total i could write one HELL of an inflammatory article. Que the red thumbs.
@ Ann Reddin. You’re having a laugh…. “blood, sweat and tears of the private sector”???!!!! When’s the last time you had to extract a dying girl from a mangled car after a road traffic accident…?? When’s the last time you had to resuscitate a newborn baby in the back of an ambulance….??? When’s the last time you couldn’t sleep at night because you had dealt with a nasty suicide earlier…??? I deal with this stuff on a daily basis and get paid less than €500 a week. Can you tell me where the gravy train is because I don’t see it near me anyway…..
Nocturnal
While I recognise that your blood sweat and tears saves lives, and I have the greatest of respect and admiriation for ambulance drivers and firemen/women, the fact remains that you are paid from taxes collected from the private sector. However it is also my opinion that your salary along with that of fire officers should be at least doubled. Firemen put their lives on the line everytime they are called out and the speedy response of ambulance staff make a huge difference in saving lives. I also think that all ambulance staff should be allowed to train as “paramedics” and be fully paid while doing so which would allow you do your job and save lives more efficiently.
As I stated I am well aware that there are many many pub. sector workers who are struggling but the fact remains that the public are entitled to know where there taxes are going and what they are being used for.
Nocturnal
While I recognise that your blood sweat and tears saves lives, and I have the greatest of respect and admiriation for ambulance drivers and firemen/women, the fact remains that you are paid from taxes collected from the private sector. However it is also my opinion that your salary along with that of fire officers should be at least doubled. Firemen put their lives on the line everytime they are called out and the speedy response of ambulance staff make a huge difference in saving lives. I also think that all ambulance staff should be allowed to train as “paramedics” and be fully paid while doing so which would allow you do your job and save lives more efficiently.
As I also stated I am well aware that there are many many pub. sector workers who are struggling but the fact of the matter is that the public are entitled to know where there taxes are going and what they are being used for.
@ Ann Reddin. All staff who work on an emergency ambulance (HSE/DFB) are trained to at least paramedic level. Some are trained to advanced paramedic level and they perform interventions that usually only doctors do. However we are still paid as EMTs/drivers, infact porters are paid more….
@ Ann:
“While I recognise that your blood sweat and tears saves lives, and I have the greatest of respect and admiriation for ambulance drivers and firemen/women, the fact remains that you are paid from taxes collected from the private sector”
Did somebody not tell you Ann that public sector workers pay taxes too?
“The public sectors blood sweat and tears doesnt have any bearing whatsoever on private sector salary and pensions and therefore not newsworthy.”
What do you think public sector workers spend their money on? Private sector businesses!
Looking at the department of Communications. There is an allowance for a child. What’s this? A child worker? Or do you get an allowance each time you successfully pop a sprog?
Also what’s the franking machine allowance? Is this for using the machine or for sending out post? What sort of post can you send with your allowance?
@Brian According to the information provided by department some pay a child allowance of just over €2 a week to staff who have worked in the civil service since before 1978. This is paid until the child is 21 if they remain in full time education. We believe that this is the ‘child allowance’ referred to in many of the documents.
As for the franking etc allowance… that may be worthy of another story.
The top 20% of the public service are absolutely milking it in this country. They are some of the highest paid public servants in the world. Our country is on its knees and this needs to stop, beginning with scrapping the Croke Park Agreement.
The other 80% of public & civil servants are paid comparably to what they would in the priate sector. They have already taken cuts and deserve no more. However some departments remain extremely inefficient – thinks like 15 minute breaks turning into 30 minute ones is no longer acceptable (I can point to a coffee shop where this is to be witnessed every morning of the week). Also sick days- the average in the private sector is 4% yet in the public it is nearing 9%. I’m not going to be popular for saying this but every nurse I’ve ever know n took the absolute piss when it came to sick days, they saw their 10 days per year as a target, not something to fall back on. Again this has to stop.
But overall people need to get perspective here. It is not the lower grade civil & public servant that are overpaid- start at middle management and work upwards and that’ll pretty much hit the nail on the head.
I genuinely hope you arrive into hospital to be looked after one of those nurses.
Antiquated departments, with antiquated `perks`, protected by antiquated unions.
Brainwashing complete. Next case.
The last time I looked at my wage slip I paid my paye USC and god only know what other taxes. I am a public sector worker and am fed up of private sector harping on about how they pay my wages!!! Would you prefer if I didn’t get paid for the job I do???
Totally agree Sinead, as well as the right to reply we also pay the same taxes as everyone else. There are those who believe we just get a huge pension handed to us for no other reason other than we work in the PS, wrong, we contribute to it, then pay a levy for the privilege of doing so and when we finally see it, if we’ll ever see it, its a small amount, nothing like the fat cats get. In fact its been reported that new staff will pay in far more to their pension than they’ll ever get out of it, and pay the levy for the privilege of doing so. Yeah a great number.
We would prefer if there were at least a third of you and you got paid 25% less
Would you prefer that? Then try getting an ambulance at 3 am for that sick child, and even if you did where are you going to go, you think there’s trolley’s on corridors now? And what about your poor mother who needs a new hip urgently, hmmm sorry it’ll be at least 7 or 8 years. Maybe. Need a fire brigade or the gardai, write a letter.
You have no problem criticing us, then when you have to wait in A&E or your services aren’t there you still criticise us. You can’t have it both ways. You want us or you don’t, who’s going to do the job then? All we ask is to be allowed to serve you, to do our job with dignity and be paid a reasonable wage. Is that too much?
The Health Service wouldn’t be in the catastrophic state, as you mentioned, with trolley’s in corridors, if it weren’t for the gross mismanagement of civil servants running the HSE, they’re still at it. It’s all about streamlining and focusing resources where they are needed, appropriate salaries and benefits in line with public sector norms, stop paying teachers for half a years work, what other job in the world would be paid 12 months for 6 months work? It’s easy to pick the alarmist example of the emergency services for when my head is hanging off my neck, it’s the 20 gougers sitting around the planning office reading the Herald with nothing to do, or the 12pm meetings on Fridays in various Departments which last an hour and then everyone feck’s off home, find me a competent Department in the civil service, provide me with a public sector that serves the public and not their pension pot, scrap Croke Park, and then i’ll feel like my taxes are finally beginning to go to some use, not waste
@You Reacted Ha Ha There are no Civil Servants employed in the HSE.
@ You Reacted. Ok first of all you’re rightly blaming the “catastrophic state” of the Health Service on mismanagement but this is NOT the fault of the vast majority of it’s employees, the frontline staff.
And to be clear I tried to point out to you what would happen if you were to reduce the numbers of the PS by a third, while there are trolley’s in A&E corridors now they’d be in every corridor if this were to happen.
You want to streamline salaries, ok just what do you propose to pay an average frontline worker in a hospital in your world, what about a nurse who studied for 4 years to get her degree? Don’t be shy, tell us what a streamlined salary would be, we don’t get benefits?
You want to stop paying teachers during the holidays, the Summer being the main one I presume. So what do you propose they do, there have been schemes suggested where kids could be taught additional classes, but then they wouldn’t want to would they? Most teachers would have to end up on the dole, not a great idea.
I can’t comment about reading the Herald in Planning offices or 12pm meetings on Fridays then everyone fecks off home but I’ll defer to your expertise on these matters, you seem to know more about them than me. What I can tell you is that the vast majority of Health Service employees are dedicated, qualified and more than competent to do their job, when you or someone you care about get hurt where do you go, to the nearest hospital? Quickly.
You seem to have a twisted view of the Health Service and the PS in general and believe we exist for the sole reason of, in your words, serving their pension pot. Its a miniscule contributory pension, which we also pay a levy on, we also pay our taxes too so you’re not alone. As I said we just want to do our job and be paid a reasonable wage. I find it odd that those who criticise us so much and call for our wages to be reduced wouldn’t be prepared to live on that themselves given a choice. I earn less than €500 per week, what about you?
@You Reacted Ha Ha “The Public Appointments Service provides recruitment, assessment and selection services for the civil service. They also provide recruitment and consultancy services to local authorities, the Health Service Executive , An Garda Síochána and other public bodies.” As I said there are no Civil Servants employed in the HSE. When you can’t get on of the the first statement in your comment correct you kind of negate the rest of it in my book anyhow. Also the core working hours in most government Departments, that is the time you must be present – the rest of the working day you fit in around this, are 10.00 – 12.30 and 14.30 – 16.00 so unless these employees of “various Departments” are all on a half days leave the can not “feck off” one hour after a midday meeting. But most of all I love your statement “provide me with a public sector that serves the public and not their pension pot”. Generalisation of the year. You are either a clown or a troll.
I’m not focusing on health services, I only mentioned them in response to you raising them in your reply, i’m talking about the entire civil / public service, if I get poor service in a shop or restaurant in the private sector, I can choose to shop / eat elsewhere, sadly, in Ireland, poor service is endemic in public sector services as a result of mismanagement and a culture of pay increases without performance, everyone knows the inordinate amount of time it takes to get a satisfactory answer tothe simplest of enquiries, the ridiculously lengthy ordeal of applying for passports, drivers licences, and other required State documentation, the unhelpful nature of the Revenue Commissioners, the sighs and rolling of eyes at counters and general disdain for members of the public, this is the reality, and it’s not good enough, you will repeatedly come across public dissatisfaction with these services, and the fact there are pay increases and ring-fenced guarantees is an absolute disgrace
@ You Reacted So I can assume you’re not going to answer my questions then? As to your asseretions of pay increases, what pay increases? Neither myself or my colleagues can rember the last time we had a pay increase, oh we had promises but then they don’t pay the bills do they? You seem to be talking about a few elite fat cats at the top and blaming over 300,000 people for what they got, because we certainly didn’t.
@Emer – Carry on the great work that you and The Journal do. I will carry on being frustrated at the narrow minds who attack the masses for the sins of the few. Funny how not so many attack the sick leave issues in the private sector, or allowances there – Maybe this is a sign of the times, the easy target can be repeatedly hit, behind the facade of “Irate Taxpayer”. C’est la vie….
Liam
people are not interested in knowing about the salaries, expenses or pensions of managers in Dunnes or Intel or Google. They are not being paid out of the public purse, unlike those paid to the public sector. And unlike civil servants sick pay, those out sick from their private sector jobs are not paid from the state pot. Can you not understand that, private sector pay has nothing to do with anyone because they are not being paid from the taxes paid by private sector workers. Its that simple and I really dont get why you are having a go at Emer and her colleagues for doing their job and reporting what peoples taxes pay for.
@Ann, Is that James Connolly in your profile? The father of Irish socialism, a renowned marxist and the sworn enemy of the private sector and all it’s stands for…and here you are defending the private sector while using him as a symbolic representation of yourself?? He didn’t like hypocrites…..
I,for one, am interested in private sector salaries, pensions and allowances…Google and Intel and only here due to massive state funding and incentives, not to mention the low corporate tax rate that allows their chief exectutive to pay less tax to the state than the person who cleans their offices, I’m also interested in the practice of transfer pricing which allows the likes of intel and HP to pay corporate tax here, yet re-patriate all their profits to the US!! These profits are included in our GNP calculations and have helped to skew our repayment schedule with the Troike…also Dunnes have helped to create the current problem by purchasing prime sites at ridiculous prices in every small towm in Ireland……
Owen
Firstly I am well aware of what James Connolly stood for, equality being one of many of his beliefs. Taking from the poor to fund the rich was another. He must be disgusted that he gave his life for Ireland given he was Scottish by birth.
I’m also sure that he didnt give up his life for public servants to be stuffing their faces at the public trough before boarding the gravey train to financial security. I am well aware that there are civil servants/public sector workers out there that are hard pressed but that does not change the fact that the Journal has every right to report on this as it is in the public interest. And no matter what you say the fact remains that there are no private sector workers out there that are paid from taxes collected.
If you have a problem with Intel and Google and every other multi-national in the country because they avail of our low corporate tax rate then take it up with your local TD or Minister. Blame the system, not the people. As for Dunnes, well if they paid inflated prices for land then we can only blame the greedy councillors and estate agencies and bankers. To the best of my knowledge Dunnes Stores doesnt sell land, if they did it would have been a lot cheaper.
If James Connolly was alive today he would be fighting for the unemployed and the minimum wage worker, and not those who have security of tenure in their jobs and will retire knowing they will be able to feed and heat themselves without worrying in their twilight years.
As for listing all those extra benefits people on social welfare get – go ahead. Private sector workers pay PRSI for a reason and they ARE entitled to get whatever extra allowances that are available to them and do so without being treated by a third class person by condescending pen pushers in their local dole office.
As for private sector business being Connollys foe, he had absolutely no problem with them as long as their workers were given a fair days pay for a fair days work. Nor did he have a problem with the many private companies that were dotted around the country, such as Guinnesses and Jacobs, who provided proper housing for their workers He would however have a major problem with the privatisation of state assets and responsibilities.
Im a public sector worker. I get €36k for a medical job .. I dont get any allowances and Im pretty sick of everyone tarring us all with the same brush.
The public sector and civil service were crying out for staff for years but people mocked the salaries and now people are blaming us for the countrys problems. You should have gotten off your arses and got a job in the PS or CS when they were going instead of begrudging those of us who made the sound decision to do so.
We have no choice but to pay into a pension fund. I would prefer that €350 a month thats taken from my gross now rather than in 30 years. My pension will pay me €12,500 a year ontop of the state pension that everyone gets and a lump sum of €75K. Regardless of people telling me that this is some sort of ‘gold plated’ pension, there is no guarantee that this will be available for me when i retire.
Stop blaming us.
Lump sum of $75k! I’ll be lucky if I get a card and get to keep my stapler
Well then maybe private sector workers should get out there and fight for these things just like Larkin and Connolly etc did for us back in the day. If youre not willing to fight for something, dont complain about those of us who went out there and did just that.
That lumpsum should help go towards any mortgage that hopefully, down the line, I might just be able to afford to save for on a take home salary of less than €500 a week before rent and bills come out too. I am far from rolling in money, much like 80% of public sector workers. I drive a 1995 fiesta and I havent had a holiday since 2005 so stop telling us how good we have it while everyone else starves!
Had a look at a couple of these. Some crazy stuff alright!
Why would the department of social protection need a forklift allowance? I just can’t imagine Joan driving one.
I would imagine Social Protection have quite a large stores somewhere and as there is no ‘forklift driver” grade in the Civil Service, whatever Service Officer drives a forklift gets paid an allowance. In most companies a forklift driver would be paid more than a general operative.
Please remember that Public Sector workers pay Tax as well, and as many here seem to believe that 90% of the Irish population work in the Public Sector (Yes, I am being sarcastic!), then we must be paying our own wages!
The total income tax take from the Public Sector is equal to the pension bill for the Public sector.Just saying.
It always amazes me the total hypocrisy shown by some people on here. When there are large scale redundancies from companies in the private sector there is understandable sympathy for the pain and suffering these job losses will cause to the people who have lost their jobs. Then on the other hand there is constantly people saying that we should cut the public service numbers drastically which will cause the exact same pain and suffering and nobody bats an eyelid. If the government and its lackys in the media have achieved one thing in the last few years it’s to totally divide a nation. Well done lads.
Large scale redundancies in the private sector happen, but don’t worry, there will never be anything near the same in the public sector, just early retirements with a golden handshake only to be re-hired 6 motnhs later as an ‘advisor’ on even more money
You are of course correct but you wish there were and that’s the hypocrisy I’m on about.
I work in the public sector and i don’t get any one of those allowances! Goes to show in the wrong end of public service hey!!! It’s ridiculous but I agree full with Sinead above, I pay my taxes, my USC and everything else which sees me with damn all at te end of a fortnight! We can’t all be tarred with the same brush!
ah the usual bull from the journal.. have got official figures showing the exact amounts of allowances spent and to whom ? you also know that prob 50% of the allces are absolete and no longer used? there are plenty of grades in the public service that have grades that are no longer in existence but are a working title and the allowance remain due to legal reasons etc but don’t actually get paid? good oul journal giving a full and concise version.. thank god its free and I don’t have spend my money on it
Bryan, not the Journal’s fault. They are only reporting what was asked and answered in the PQ. But your point in general is valid. I’ve only glanced at a few Dept’s allowances and when you think rationally about it very few officers would get any allowances.
I have to say after reading the Department of Arts list of allowances that I can’t understand what most of them relate to, how much they actually cost in total, and to how many people they apply. What is a €2.39 per day “subsistence” allowance? And the €113/year children’s allowance? And the franking allowance? And who and why gets a €1.71/day “eating on site” allowance? It’s small change for the most part but it makes public sector pay maddeningly obscure.
Anyone know if any jobs are available in the civil/public service. I pay out of m own pocket €80 per week on petrol alone to get to work which is18% of my net salary and don’t get an allowance……
Dominick, do all Civil & Public Servants not pay out of their own pockets to get to work?
Duh, Dominick! Allowances are paid for travel done whilst at work as, unlike the private sector, company cars are not provided,
People just want to be sure that the money taken from their wages each week is used properly and transparently. People work approx 20 hours a week to pay taxes to run the country. If they’re lucky they get to keep the money for working the other 20 hours to pay for rent/mortgage, food and bills etc.
All the different allowances muddy the water.
A basic wage should be paid and do away with unvouched allowances.
@brian. I have clients who broke their back working as nurses in the hse. The way some of them are treated, particularly when they have suffered psychological trauma or physical trauma is little short of appalling.
I think there are plenty of savings that could be made in many areas without hitting hard workers. But it involves making the public service more accountable and giving pay increments based on productivity. The upper management , top down, had to be savaged because the book stops at them in terms of inneficiencies.
When these threads and stories come out it should galvanise lower level public servants against those considered to be on the state gravy train. Any reasonable person would defend lower level, hard working public servants against the wasted management and administration departments that get rewarded for just being employed.
I never get the chance to discuss this topic rationally because I always get called a basher which does nothing to defend the case of hard working people.
@Oran I think we’re both singing form the same hymn sheet here, at least I hope we are. I have no problem making upper management accountable but the problem with giving increments to frontline staff, those on low pay, based on productivity is that they don’t get to make these decisions. Nurses, support services and porters etc are not given the independence to make decisions but instead have to follow those made by umpteen managers. They don’t need this pointed out or galvanised, they’ve always known it, it’s those outside the Health Service who don’t realise it. I had a friend several years ago, he worked in the Private Sector, I used to tell him what it was like working in the Health Service but when he lost his job some years ago he applied and was successful. About a year later he told me he thought I was joking or at least exaggerating, he couldn’t believe it was that bad, that they could get away with things like that in this day and age. I tried to warn him.
I don’t doubt you have clients who have suffered psychological or physical trauma, in fact I honestly believe some day someone will do research to see how many people working in the frontline in the Health Service have suffered from psychological trauma. You can’t be around death and sickness day in day out and not be affected, if you’re there long enough you will become physically sick, you will eventually catch something. I did.
Defending “lower level, hard working public servants against the wasted management and administration” is not being a basher. As I told someone else we just want to do our job with dignity and be paid a reasonable wage, surely thats not too much to ask?
@turkeyforchristmas Ireland does have a bloated public service the other countries you are talking about have much bigger armies than ours which distorts your figures
Also how the private sector generate and spend their wealth is up to each small business such as myself it has nothing to do with the waste in the public sector ie it is tax payers money funding your jobs do therefore it’s totally reasonable that we get a clear picture how and where our money is spent
For your information my business pays all it’s taxes and ridiculous rents and I know where every penny goes ,I don’t have a fairy godmother ie the dept of finance ,to write a cheque for ridiculous allowances
So, we have an efficient army. No credit for that when we are lambasted for having a ‘bloated’ public sector, even though it seems to be a crime when we have more.
Would you care to dig out the comparative chart on the size of OECD public sectors? Perhaps thejournal.ie could do a spot of (cough) research of (cough) facts on that one for the edification of all us. Or maybe the word ‘bloated’ is within easier reach when you’re more interested in whipping up anti-public worker hysteria.
Most small businesses are run with massive tax let-offs on everything imaginable compared with PAYE (and let’s not even start with farmers). Please don’t try to pretend otherwise.
And does the public sector charge you those exorbitant rents?
Dept. of social protection has a ‘forklift’ allowance???……sweet Jesus I’ve heard and seen it all now
See my reply to CanadaAbu’s comment. Makes perfect sense when you think about it.
They need the forklift to move the bucket loads of money they give all us lazy scroungers on social welfare and the massive allowances we get!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can’t understand why those commenting about how wonderful the PS is, aren’t working there!
It seems that any piece of information published anywhere about anything within the public service that suggests anything other the that it’s an efficient, cost effective service , is “an attack”.
It would be laughable if people didn’t believe it.
I suppose by criticising certain vested interest groups for their use of a rhetoric phrase (used to guilt people into thinking they are actually attacking somebody), I too must be attacking loadsa people because I find the phrase “attack public servants” offensive.
I could go into more details on my views but I end up getting branded a basher and some other ridiculous negative things. They are just strategies used by certain people who are incapable of debating the financial cost of the public service in an objective manner.
@Oran Some parts of the PS may be efficient or cost effective , but I doubt it and I can see your point. The problem is that we all know damn well the PS is mismanaged, from the top down, and that means from the very top starting with the Minister then the minions who’s names we never really get to know.
The problem is when the media attack the PS or if it’s criticised here its always the foot soldiers, the frontline staff who’re in the firing line. Time after time we hear about sick leave, when in reality it averages out to less than 2 days per person per year, we hear about all the entitlements in the PS but the frontline staff don’t get any of those either, in fact many work in Dickensian, sometimes illegal conditions. Their take home pay has been driven so far down its a joke, people working day after day to save lives, surrounded by death and sickness get no respect from the public, just look at the remarks here. Morale is so low it’s an insult every time you hear a politician offer false praise to some hospital they’ve never even seen the inside of.
Most people correct themselves and point out that the meant to target the managers, the well paid fat cats, and we understand that, its just as frustrating for us, but when a remark is targeted at the PS in general it can seem to be personal.
@ tommy. Who is blaming the public service? Please Stop saying things that just don’t exist.
We have a budget deficit and the government has to shore it up. It needs to do a mixture of raising taxes in different areas, reducing the welfare bill and yes reducing its overheads in public service. It really is as simple as that. I know it’s personal to you but it’s an economic exercise , not an attack.
@turkeyfor Christmas ,an efficient army ,give me a break there is more retired soldiers on the payroll than actual soldiers,letting them retire at 50 years of age ,what a joke
Also in reference to your rent question the answer is no.however I do get charged ridiculous rates by the council ,the same council where the county manager is paid more than the king of Spain ,I kid you not !!
This PS vs PS debate is ridiculous…. Notice my choice of acronyms?
I’m in emergency services and I don’t get any of them!!
Sarah they are all central government departments allowances!!! We would never get a sniff of anything like that yet its assumed that we all get it!!! It’s do annoying!
Most people seem to target their anger at the high earning managers, the fat cats in the PS and CS, the vast majority of us don’t get any allowances, we haven’t seen a pay rise in over a decade and earn less than €500 per week. We only want to do our job and earn a decent wage and most people don’t have any problem with that. Most people.
There are always going to be those who believe that everyone working in the PS or CS, no matter what level, are on a permanent doss reading the paper, drinking coffee, assuming they come in at all and availing of their 6 months sick leave every year on top of their 2 months holidays. They only come in at all to fill out the forms for all their extra entitlements one assumes. It boggles the mind why the people who actually believe this never joined the PS or CS, either they just didn’t want to be bored or they failed the psychological tests. These same people want our wages to be cut by up to 30%, so if we were to earn €500 and cut it by 30% that would mean a wage of €300. This would of course be illegal. The minimum wage is €8.65 per hour so that would mean at least a minimum wage of €337, and even that’s paying the absolute minimum wage.
Public Service Lol Self Service is the Word
Really? When was the last time you matched blood for your transfusion, checked your own biopsy for cancer, checked how your heart enzymes were, inserted your own drip, cleaned your own bedpan etc?
Mark honestly is that the best you can come up with? Look beyond the great workers in the health service, Mark you rely on public servants for your day to day needs. If it was such a handy number why during the boom did many turn their nose up at it as a career?
Oh for gods sake….
Is it time for prayer Sara?
I hope you get the Public Service you wish for
@tommy c,explain to me why you feel entitled to 75k of a tax free lump sum?
Where do you think that money comes from,you didn’t contribute a penny towards it ,it’s BORROWED by a bankrupt state.
You had a job for years= job security
You will have a subsidised pension,and yet you feel Entitled to more money
In most EU countries public servants are paid at least 20% less than the private sector because of these facts buy not in good old Ireland it’s the opposite!
Tommy C in entitled to a 75k lump sum, which is NOT tax free (from 01/03/2012) because over the course of a 40 year service he will have paid roughly 240k towards his pension, based on the 15% of salary towards pension rate. Tommy C will also have paid enough pension contributions to cover 13.2 years of his €12,500 pension on top of the state pension which his prsi payments are supposed to cover. Tommy C is fully covered up until he is close to 80. Once again Mel you are wrong. You are Trolling.
Go back to work people in the PS (public and private!). I wish I had the time and/or freedom to be posting such ridiculous, bitter and inflammatory remarks. Ireland can do without people like you! Go back to work!
Much of what is written in the comments section here is inaccurate and misleading, which only serves to fuel the Public/Private divide. But lets get a few things straight:
A) Those in the PS pay their taxes the same as those in the Private sector, so obviously EVERYONE working funds the PS. I constantly see people using PS services do whatever they can to screw the system, not seeming (or caring) to realize that we are ALL paying for this via our taxes.
B) PS pensions for many workers are RUBBISH! After 20 years of paying into it, plus paying the pension levy every week, I will get the princly sum of €33 a week!!! So those who keep parroting on about the golden PS pensions – get real! The big cushy pensions are only for those small few at the top, which is why you have to laugh at those who go on about ‘subsidised’ pensions! Add up how much is paid compared to how much you get at the end and it’s not pretty!
C) Since there is no OT paid, and no new employees hired, many are working countless hours of unpaid OT so that the job can be done – none of that is ever mentioned in the anti-PS diatribes
D) Most allowances are only available to a few – mostly long-term, or higher paid PSs; the majority don’t get ANY allowences. I, and all of my colleagues, don’t receive any allowances whatsoever. I use my car for work (to travel to & from patients houses), get a very minimal per-mile payment which in no way covers the costs, and, unlike those in govt, have to account for every single mile/trip I do (which is the way ALL expenses should be!)
E) Public sector employees have taken a huge salary hit in the last few years, add the pension levy on top of that, and also the lowering of mileage rates and it’s easy to see why many qualify for FIS. Yet, as full-time workers, they qualify for nothing else.
F) I know that the HSE cannot re-hire retirees; not sure about the other PS areas
Agreed Brian on all fronts!
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