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LAST UPDATE | 10 May 2020
TEACHER AND PRINCIPAL representatives have called it “unacceptable” and “completely inappropriate” for students and parents to be contacting Leaving Cert teachers to lobby them about the calculated grade.
They suggested in interviews with RTÉ, of putting in place a protocol to log these attempts at lobbying, to ensure fairness and objectivity in Plan C for the Leaving Cert this year.
On Friday, it was announced that the Leaving Cert exams on 29 July would be cancelled, and students would instead receive ‘calculated grades’.
These are calculated through teachers giving their students an assessment score, reviewed by other teachers and the principal, which will then be sent to the Department of Education for ‘national standardisation’.
This is where percentages would be compared with previous years, and this Leaving Cert class’ Junior Cert results, to come up with a final ‘calculated grade’.
If students are unhappy with their grade, and unhappy with their appeal, they will have the option of sitting a written exam later in the year, possibly in November.
U-turn on full marks for orals and practicals
Teachers union ASTI has said that it would be advising its members to “engage” with estimating calculated grades for their students, after the Department of Education confirmed that this would be a once-off system to assess students.
The ASTI has also called on the Department of Education to reinstate full marks for the oral examinations, after a u-turn was made on this decision, and has also asked that students be awarded full marks for practical projects.
This call has been rebutted with the point that if students are given full marks for all orals and practicals, because the Department of Education wouldn’t be able to compare this year’s grades with previous years’ results, which is a necessary part of the grading system.
At 11pm on Friday, the other major teachers’ union, the Teachers’ Union of Ireland (TUI), said that it had “decided to engage with the system of Calculated Grades outlined by the Minister”.
The TUI said that although written exams were “the clear preference” for the union, that this had “proved to be not possible”. It added that students “have a right to advance to the next stage of their lives”, and a mechanism was needed to do so.
Concerns from the ASTI
After a meeting of the ASTI executive on Friday and at 6pm yesterday, a statement was released after midnight that advised members to engage with the calculated grades system so that students “can progress to the next stage of their lives”.
The ASTI has a policy of teachers not assessing their students for State exams, as it “ensures the integrity of the State Exams process, the value of which is infinitely superior to any other process”.
But, the ASTI also acknowledges that because of the Covid-19 pandemic, it “recognises that this year it is necessary to engage with this new process”.
The ASTI has secured confirmation from the Department and the Minister that these measures are being implemented on an emergency basis and will not be regarded as a precedent or an agreement to operate this process in future years.
Despite this, the union still has “a number of major concerns” with the process which it is calling on the Minister for Education and Skills to address as a matter of urgency.
These concerns are:
Following yesterday’s meeting, ASTI president Deirdre Mac Donald said that these were “extraordinary times”.
“This has been a difficult year for our Leaving Cert students and we are very aware of the stress they have endured to date due to this pandemic.
The process outlined by the Minister is far from ideal.
However, we will be striving to improve the process in order to deliver fairness, objectivity, and equity for all students and protect the professional integrity of teachers.
Teachers being lobbied
Speaking on RTÉ Radio One’s This Week programme, McDonald said that it is “just unacceptable” that teachers would be lobbied by parents and students.
The fact is that we would have to put in place a protocol around that. The integrity of the system depends on an impartial system being put in place. So, a lobbying protocol will most certainly have been put in place immediately.
Clive Byrne, president of the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, said that as part of that protocol, it should be “necessary” should be a written note to say if and when a teacher is contacted by a student or parent.
“If somebody is contacted by student or parent and asked in relation to canvassing or grade or other things like that, a written record should be kept.
“And that must be taken on board when the teachers are making their grades and their rankings with the principal.”
He said that lobbying for grades or canvassing “would be completely inappropriate”.
The ASTI said it will be seeking a number of clarifications from the Department of Education and Skills in relation to its concerns. The TUI has also said that it requires clarifications from the Department about the process.
This afternoon, the TUI joined the call for safeguards to protect teachers from any lobbying.
“A protocol that protects teachers from any form of lobbying or canvassing in relation to their role in terms of the system of calculated grades must immediately be introduced by the Department of Education and Skills. The professional integrity and independence of teachers must be protected,” TUI President Seamus Lahart said.
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Why were all these not addressed before any announcement was made?
@Logan Shepherd: Hey they didn’t tell schools they’d be closing before they announced it on the news. They like the element of surprise!
@Lorraine Mac Rory: no matter what they do or say you will have people moaning and disagreeing with de idioms made. There is no solution that will keep everyone happy.
@Stephen: “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.
@Logan Shepherd: do u not realise it the govt and the TD that prop them up ? U no if it two metre stuff on theri mnds surely open up another room or two or three in schools and away u go plenty of soap and water gloves and away u go ? Or may be all they want is DRAMA to deflect form real hornet that going on in eu . Remember those TD that say aye to a Taoiseach will be saying to him U CAN BORROW ?
So students get to have their cake and eat it? Should be a compulsory choice – a predicted grade OR sit the exam, not both. Also, what’s the big deal about repeating sixth year if a student feels so hard done by? News alert – we’ve all been hit hard by this, not just the “poor” students.
@roberto Mankini: well a lot would be 20 years old if they repeated.
@Tony Stack: there are lots of 20year olds that repeat their leaving Cert???
@roberto Mankini: How can that many people repeat sixth year with all the new students are also moving up into sixth year as well? we don’t have anywhere near the capacity. where would we get all the extra teachers and school rooms?
@roberto Mankini: You’re gas with your “compulsory choice”.
@Fiona Fitzgerald: don’t see the funny side really – explain when you’re finished laughing won’t you?
@roberto Mankini: what’s the big deal? An extra years fees for parents? Room in the classes for extra students? Course changes? They don’t study the same plays etc every year for example.
What an idiotic question.
@roberto Mankini: I think Fiona was merely pointing out that the words are antonyms of each other.
@roberto Mankini: With a comment like this, it sounds like you’re the one feeling “hard done by”. Shows how much you genuinely care to suggest repeating a year is no big deal.
So if you dont agree with your predictive grade, most likely its because it is affecting your course preference.
If there is going to be a test for you in that instance in November 2020 for a course that you cant now attend until October 2021, then why not just sit the LC in June 2021?
Why not let everyone do the course they want to do ( mostly online probably ) and let the first year exam results dictate whether you get to carry on or go to lower
preferences based on your results.
@Padraic O Sullivan: you do realise that there a set number of places in every course? Take PE teaching for example, 60 places in a certain college. You could have 1000+ applicants. Also, imagine the absolute administrative headf*ck of having so many students change course after 1st year because they weren’t up to the task (on top of regular trends in drop out rates and course transfers).
@Padraic O Sullivan: Many courses require facilities that have limited capacities, like laboratories. While you can easily double the size of entirely lecture based classes, you can’t when the students need access to physical resources (computer rooms/studios/science labs/engineering workshops.
@Padraic O Sullivan: Padraic, this is the madness Joe Duffy was suggesting. Everyone can’t just do the course they want, there isn’t space available. In fact, while there will be more spaces overall for Irish students due to lack of foreign students, colleges will need to rethink crowded lecture halls this year further complicating things.
If there were let’s say just 10 exams on the Leaving Cert and you ran just 2 exams per week (so social disrancing not an issue) it’d be all done and dusted in 5 weeks. What’s the problem here? Think solutions not problems, creative thinking?
@Damian Moylan: Gov afraid of litigation in the instance a child/exam supervisor contracted the virus while doing exam. Simple as that. Plus think of the money being saved now (no exam supervisors, no correcting the papers).
@Jonathan Regan: I think they’re worried about students/teachers and by extension, society catching the virus and then dying or overloading the health service. Also worried about the lockdown being dragged out, destroying the economy and impoverishing all of us. And you think it’s the cost of supervising, correcting and litigation? Really?
@Jonathan Regan: Parents should be forced to sign a waiver for indemnity, problem solved! Sanitizer at entrance, distance between tables, masks if deemed necessary. This LC is doable with social distancing – isolated actvity anyway. Not everyone studies physics or geography so by spreading out the exams you greatly reduce the numbers. Just requires a bit of effort to arrange dates for the various exams.
@Damian Moylan: there are at least 34 subjects, some of which are 2 papers long.
@Damian Moylan: there are at least 34 subjects, some of which are examined over 2 papers.
@Damian Moylan: “If there were let’s say just 10 exams on the Leaving Cert”
This is where your idea falls down. The ‘if’ plays a major part. If there was no pandemic right now……
@Georgina Smith: As i said 10 subjects per week meaning 20 exams, 10 at higher level and 10 at lower level. So if you did 1 exam per day (3 hours) 20 days to cover 20 exams. Seems doable logistically. Sitting exams is an entirely isolated activity. Where there’s a will there’s a way.
@Peter Clancy: Ok, let’s take even 30 exam papers, 1 per day in 30 days with social distancing, that’s 30 days of exams
@Damian Moylan: Would you sign an indemnity to supervise? Would you even touch all the answer books being handed in by the students? Would you spend hours handling every page of answer books while correcting? Maybe you should consider of all that!
@Ger McDonnell: Yes I would: 1) latex gloves 2) face mask 3) hand sanitizer dispense at entrance. I’ve seen lots of people working in shops just using common sense / social distancing measures. As an invigilator there is no contact with students. Where there’s a will there’s a way to implement social distancing measures. I follow these measures at work every day.
@Ger McDonnell: If….the virus landed on an exam paper during the exam it would be long dead by the time it came to correcting the exam paper…
@Damian Moylan: Gloves are more dangerous, according to the expert advice.
And given that most people are currently cleaning everything coming into their homes, including packaging, you’ll excuse me of I don’t expect anyone to risk their health on YOUR opinion!
I’ll rely on the ACTUAL experts, who made the decision re L Cert.
@Ger McDonnell: HSE guidance on social distancing employed not my opinion. Some good info relating to half life testing of Sars-Cov-2 on various types of material including, plastic, stainless steel, copper, cardboard can be found on the following report from The New England Journal of Medicine;
https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMc2004973
@Ger McDonnell: Gloves are not more dangerous than not using gloves, depends on how you use them. The exam invigilator has to touch paper twice 1) putting exam papers on tables 2) removing exam papers from tables. A separate pair of gloves can be used on both occasions and he/she can also used hand sanitizer. In comparison shop workers touch products thousands of times per day.
@Damian Moylan: when do you think theLC would be finished October. Students aren’t robots.
@Johnny O’Hooligan: I reckon some people see invigilation as a no-contact role in Darth Vader costume. I’ve sat plenty of exams and invigilated a few. Students are human. They have whispered queries. They panic. They sneeze. They run out of pencils, tissues and time. I’ve known adults to arrive with cog notes that had to be taken away during the exam. People knock water over. You don’t sit in a fume cupboard in isolation to invigilate from afar.
@Fiona Fitzgerald: people think they’re experts on the running of state exams just because they did one. It’s a joke.
@Damian Moylan: it’s what happens when you put public servants in charge of anything. Decisions are driven by fear and a$$ covering.
@Damian Moylan: Forced health wavers to do exams. A it if thinking. Do you not think that a lot of people have been thinking about this and this was the compromise that was considered the best. A tub of handsanitiser and it will all be fine!!!
@Oracle Steve: Public servants out comes the old favourite. It was decided by the health issues by doctors.
Sell the exams off, simple as that for the private sector brigade.
We mightn’t agree with Predictive grades, especially the portion where ‘school profiling’ may alter the mark but it’ll be done for the sake of the students.
@eric nelligan: I feel so sorry for the students doing the leaving this year. The whole this is a mess. It must be causing huge anxiety in n many houses. Students have been left dangling for months now, not knowing what form the exams they were preparing for would take.
@Dec: You would think there was some sort of pandemic going on to cause such disruption.
@eric nelligan: I’m sorry but a system which excludes students studying independently from going to college this year can not be considered in the interest of the students.
@Rochelle: what’s your solution then? What is the answer that will keep everyone safe.
Personally I think there is no solution because no matter what decision they make or say it will not suit everyone. I do feel for the students but they have to accept that it is unprecedented times we are living in.
@Rochelle: They might be doing what’s in the best interest of the greatest number of students given the emergency in which we find ourselves – there may be no ideal solution to this crises, but there might be a least worst. Do you have any ideas to suit independent students? I’m actually curious!
@Stephen: Hold the exam in August with social distancing. If that can’t happen by that stage then schools and colleges won’t be sitting this year anyway and it’s a repeat year for everyone.
This notion that it’s too dangerous to hold an exam for a small number of students in August so we must predict the grades so a large number of students can congregate in colleges the following month is actual lunacy.
@eric nelligan: there should be outside authenticator’s brought in to schools. After all top marks can’t be given to everyone just so schools jockey for top schools position in Ireland.
In Holland Seconary Schools are shift based typ. 0730-1300 and 1300-1930. You might have to come in for a physics lesson in the morning, go home and return for maths later in the day. This to cater for thousands of students attending the school. So why not some creativity to get schools open again / distancing.
@Damian Moylan: Bet they have state organised child care system!
@Ger McDonnell: Not sure tbh but i was quite surprised to learn this back 30 years ago when i went there. They told me how else do you think we manage to get 2000 sudents into the local school! Just it’s just their modus operandi, big population 18odd mln
They urge members to engage with a system they’ve highlighted as lacking fairness and objectivity? It completely stinks if teachers objected to giving up holidays in July / August but will accept this.
@Rochelle: teachers were actually on board to work in July (which they’re not contractually obliged to do btw). Teachers get paid for the days they’re in school, but have their salaries spread across the whole year (how do people still not get that?!). I don’t think any teachers voiced concerns about giving extra/free/voluntary classes to 6th years in July. Classic ‘teacher/summer holiday’ jealous comment out of you. Go back to trolling rugby articles and winding big Jim Demps up!
@Rochelle: Can you give me a link to something where teachers objected to giving up holidays? All parties involved had said that they were happy for leaving Cert to go ahead in July and to teach the 6the years for a few weeks before. Where is this narrative coming from, that teachers didn’t want to give up holidays?? Management, parents, students, health officials pushed for the Leaving to be cancelled, yet it is teachers getting the abuse online. As I said before, soon someone will say a teacher caused the pandemic by eating a bat on holidays.
@Rochelle: It would stink, but they didn’t object.
@TheHeathen: By using secondary schools, primary schools local churches or GAA hall’s the LC could have went ahead. There is no reason it could not have went ahead considering most of the country will be back open by then. In any year a few weeks before the actual exams 80% of students would choose predicted grades rather than having to sit exams. The teacher’s union’s are toxic there plan was to ensure that teachers stayed on full pay until the summer and then that teachers holidays would not be impacted. It was a game for the unions. The students/government suffer while the teachers get stick online. These are the same unions that shafted the new graduates.
@Edwardson Mike: What are you on about? Where does this narrative that you are imagining fit with the fact that management, parents, students and health officials all wanted it cancelled? Anything about what the other stakeholders wanted? What about the main issue, a pandemic in the country and the fear that a second wave will undoubtedly happen, leading to further chaos or cancellation of the exams again. I don’t mind that you have a bias against teachers, but to spread lies because of the chip on your shoulder is unfair and demeaning to a profession who are trying their best to deal with an extraordinary situation. We are in this together as a country, like it or not.
@TheHeathen: Why was the LC called off almost 3mths before it was supposed to happen? It makes no sense to call it off even before phase 1 of reopening the country has started. Don’t even try compare teachers to front line workers. They are working remotely with no accountability costing the country millions every week.
@Edwardson Mike: The leaving Cert was called off because of pressure from health officials, parents, all opposition parties, students, school management. How many times does that have to be repeated?
Nothing about this pandemic makes sense, very little is understood about this, everything is new.
I never compared teachers to frontline workers, again you are building a false narrative because of your giant chip.
I might have accepted the 350 a week to do nothing, it’s pretty close to my fortnightly wages. But then what about the students? Ah what do you care anyway.
Education costs money, it is not free but we are high up on all international league tables, yet our investment is one of the lowest.
At least these millions being paid will go into the economy and keep some parts of it going, much like the 350 payment.
Hope that helps reduce your huge chip but I doubt it. You’ll be back with lies pretty soon.
@TheHeathen: No chip at all, my partner is a teacher. She isn’t happy that the LC is cancelled and has informed me to the real reasons. She’s also an older teacher on the better pay scale and can remember how the older teachers shafted the new graduates. By the way how have PE and other type teachers being teaching online? She reckons they should have been redeployed to help out country from the day the school’s were closed.
@TheHeathen: Did you see the latest, ASTI calling for all non written exams to be given full marks. They are toxic and should have no say. You haven’t ventured into the real world :-)
@Edwardson Mike: The real world? You think teachers have never worked in the private sector? Was there for years, nice life, no fulfilment though. Anyway it was where you are with your imaginary life, chip, ridiculous suspicions and tin foil hat rubbish.
@Edwardson Mike: the real reasons?! Do tell please! PE teachers possibly could have been redeployed alright if they weren’t doing anything with their classes maybe. Most would have a second subject like Geog, Maths etc. so she’d want them redployed to help out the country and keep the bit of online teaching going then as well is it?! And you think the teachers unions should have no say in what happens with the Leaving Cert? You’re having a laugh again today surely?!
@Rochelle: boring!!!!!!!
@Joe Kennedy: Joe the Teacher claiming not to be a teacher but rushing to the defence of teachers like a knight in shining armour.
@Edwardson Mike: haha….that seems to be bugging you is it?! You can’t believe someone who’s not teaching could be defending them?! Think that says more about you than me! What’s even more strange is you claim to be married to one, and yet don’t defend them. If anyone was attacking my wife’s profession they’d see me defending that too.
@Rochelle: Teachers were prepared to work in July.
@Edwardson Mike: I think you don’t like teachers and certainly you didn’t benefit from them judging from your grammar. Cop on teachers did not cause this shitstorm and have been working their backsides off trying to help students. They offered to work the summer are doing their best to be flexible with this solution but its not enough for people like you. I am not a teacher btw.
@Edwardson Mike: No accountability? I don’t know about your other half but in my school since 12th March i’ve been accountable to my colleagues in working together to provide the best remote learning experience we can to pupils. I’m accountable to the vice-principal and principal who keep track of everyone’s work. I’m accountable to the parents who i phone regularly and who have my email address. I’m accountable to the Dept and the teaching inspectorate in the planning I do and the records I keep. currently the inspectorate has started reviewing how schools are operating during this crisis including interviews with parents.
You clearly know nothing about the profession from an adult point of view. Believe me there is so much accountability these days it interferes in teaching at times.
@Lorraine Mac Rory: uh uh. How many teachers are fired every year for non performance? How many have been let go from your school in the
Last 18 months? Any?
There’s no such thing as accountability in the Public Sector or government .
@Edwardson Mike: Primary Schools with chairs a foot off the ground? Churches with kneeler and no tables? Are you for real?
@Shazam37: haha…..she actually listed out all the people/bodies she is accountable to and she even forgot to mention the Teaching Council, so unlucky on that one lad! Seems like there’s more accountability than many other jobs by the looks of it. Any one can take a case to the Teaching Council against a teacher nowadays too I believe, for ‘non performance’ (whatever that even means!), as well as any other grievance they might have.
@Joe Kennedy: can’t be fired then you’re not held accountable. Simple as that.
@Shazam37: haha….not that simple obviously!
@Joe Kennedy: well it is that simple actually. If you’ve never any risk of losing your job what’s theIncentive to perform or modernise?
@Shazam37: It’s very difficult to “not perform” in a classroom filled to the brim with children. People who don’t perform usually leave the profession pretty rapidly. And yes, teachers are let go every year – at least a third of contracts are fixed term or temporary. Teachers who have proven themselves and have been offered a permanent contract are pretty secure. They are able to perform but should they decide they’re tired or fed up they generally leave. Some coast along performing in a mediocre fashion and are then sidelined for promotions.
@Shazam37: You’re right a teacher with a permanent contract can’t be fired and a poorly performing teacher is a lead weight and source of anger and frustration to colleagues. So if you’re happy to have no job satisfaction, no friends in your workplace, be a source of ridicule and irritation, be sidelined for any arising opportunities and all this when you’ve long since proven you can do the job and that’s why you were offered a permanent position in the first place then you can be a mediocre teacher. You’ll still be in a classroom teaching 6 hours a day. Now if you happen to be downright bad then parents will complain, other teachers will complain, a case can be taken and even a permanent teacher can lose their position.
@TheHeathen: what medical advice? National psychology group NOT medical or infection/public health
Does anyone know what the college are doing about the final exams, and is it consistent? Leaving Cert results are never a factor when I interview, the points system will for the most part balance things out so I’m not too bothered if the Leaving Cert results aren’t comparable to last year’s.
@Gordon Walsh: Yes and no. Mainly trying to cope with an unprecedented problem and be as fair as possible.
This fiasco really highlights the ineptitude of assessing 14 years worth of education in a 2 hour exam.
Adopt continuous assessment, bin the horror that is the leaving cert, enough of us are still emotionally scarred and have 90% of course work completed and assessed ahead of your final exam.
This will also make it much easier to predict points and manage placements so there aren’t several rounds of counts like you’re trying to be elected to office and it would introduce students to third level assessment standards earlier, potentially better preparing students for 3rd level education and reducing drop out rates. For every student repeating their leaving cert because they didn’t get the course they want, a student in that course drops out. Movement between courses needs to be more fluid.
My son had 434 in his mocks. Would have expected in excess of 456 for leaving and then got covid-19 from my wife, a nurse. He has had 6 weeks of no study and still not well. So do I think what’s put in place is appropriate, absolutely Yes. It’s only the last minute slackers that will really suffer. Kids from disadvantaged backgrounds or with poor broadband can only gain an advantage so lobbying is just to “help my poor Johnny!”. Over zealous parenting. Health at this time outways any leaving cert.
600 pints for everyone?
@Clurichaun:
And 600 shots to follow!
@Clurichaun: At that age they couldn’t drink six pints without falling over when celebrating six hundred points.
Unacceptable and inappropriate, that won’t stop sone parents. How would the deot t of education not think this was not going to happen?? I’ve no one for leaving cert, but maybe Joe duffy is right. Let them all in to college, no foreign students able to come this year so there’s more spaces. Give our irish students a fairer chance for a change. Colleges have been giving more and more foreign students places to the detriment of Irish students due to the fees they get them …
@Patricia O’Reilly: If you only have 30 places in a laboratory you just can’t let an undefined number into a course which uses that lab.
@Patricia O’Reilly: Blame the government for not funding education, the Public for electing people
Who don’t care about falling educational standards and the older Generation for bankrupting the country.
@Patricia O’Reilly: maybe they should deduct marks from any student where either they or their parents tried to lobby teachers. That should put Stop to it!
Few people in this saying that LC will be looked down on by employers and academics. Firstly you crawl back into what place you came from and secondly it’s being signed into legislation so you can file for discrimination if somebody can have the audacity to undermine 14 years of education if you aren’t going to college. Finally it’s not as if LC students will be heading to accountancy looking for work they still have to get their degree. People like to pick and choose their arguments firstly the LC didn’t matter when a big fuss was being made and now it does seem to be the be all and end all. Make up your mind.
I agree that people shouldn’t be pestered by students and lobbyists, They should be on to the government and education departments. On the other side , pretty much all my teachers said i would never even pass the leaving cert, and ended up with a successful career in engineering because they couldn’t tell the difference between laziness and absolute exhaustion and chronic insomnia due to working all hours from the age of 12 or so.
I think calculated grades are great news for all but specially for all the students that are under so much pressure due to this exam. My daughter is certainly delighted and so am I! Life goes on and everything will work out just fine! Here’s to the holidays!! ☀️
Why don’t they just give a student the same percentage for their orals and projects as they get for their paper. Failing that why not give all students the marks they received in their mocks
have your say