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SHORTLY AFTER THE marriage equality referendum passed in 2015, Ranae von Meding became pregnant with her first child.
“We used my wife Audrey’s eggs and I carried our child,” von Meding says. “We were under the assumption that we would be treated the same as any other married couple. We were having our family and were in a happy little bubble.
“But then we found out that there was no legislation covering reciprocal IVF – where one female partner provides the eggs and the other carries the baby – for same-sex couples.
“To this day, Audrey is not recognised in Irish law as the mother to our children because she did not give birth, and that means our children do not have the legal protection of having two parents.”
She and her wife are among thousands of people both in same-sex or in opposite-sex couples who, under current legal provisions, do not have the same rights as other parents because of how their children were conceived.
On May 5, new laws commenced under the 2015 Children and Family Relationships Act (CFRA) which broaden the rights of children and parents conceived through donor-assisted human reproduction (DAHR) in so-called ‘non-traditional’ families. But clinicians, legal experts and parents say that legislation for children conceived outside male-female sexual intercourse still falls far short.
Over the past three months, Noteworthy has been examining why there has been so little tangible progress in overhauling Ireland’s laws around surrogacy and egg or sperm donation.
Our investigation shows that:
Fertility doctors have huge concerns about the lack of legal guidelines around surrogacy and other forms of assisted human reproduction.
There is particular concern around how a donor-conceived child may discover information about their parentage after they turn 18.
The lack of legislation around aspects of assisted human reproduction has left some children in legally precarious situations. One child born in Spain to a same-sex female couple, including an Irish mother, remains stateless. All male same-sex couples remain excluded from being jointly recognised as parents.
There remains significant confusion about the parental status of same-sex female couples who undertake reciprocal IVF, where one partner provides the egg and the other partner carries the pregnancy. The Department of Health has provided a note to fertility clinics indicating that these women would have full parental rights but has given conflicting advice to parents and could not provide any clarity to Noteworthy.
Correspondence released to us through Freedom of Information reveals tensions regarding the legislation between Regina Doherty, the former minister for social protection and employment affairs, and a proponent of legislative reform on this issue, and former minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan and his officials, who took a much more cautious approach.
Following engagement with fertility clinics, then minister for health Simon Harris made the decision to further delay commencing parts of the laws around donor-assisted human reproduction because couples going through fertility treatments could be negatively impacted.
Representations from conservative groups opposing assisted human reproduction (AHR) comprised only a small part of the correspondence received by ministers and presented to the Oireachtas health committee, with most of the letters and emails coming from parents and prospective parents concerned about the lack of legal recognition from their families. Conservative lobby groups appear to have had relatively little impact on this legislative process.
Rights for families whose children were conceived using donor eggs or sperm, or through AHR, were discussed as far back as Michael Noonan’s tenure as minister for health in 1996.
Shelved for a decade
The Commission for Assisted Human Reproduction, set up by the Taoiseach Micheál Martin when he was minister for health, reported in 2005, but uncertainty around the constitutional status of embryos created during IVF and a lack of political will left it sitting on the shelf for around a decade.
The general scheme of the AHR Bill was approved and published by the Government in October 2017. Throughout 2018 and into early 2019, members of the public and interest groups were invited to give submissions. The joint committee on health published its report on pre-legislative scrutiny of the general scheme of the AHR bill in July 2019, but the bill did not make it over into law before the dissolution of the Dáil in January.
Legislation around assisted human reproduction and parental rights remains limited.
Ireland and Lithuania are the only two countries in the European Union which do not provide public funding for fertility treatments. While the last Government committed to providing €2 million to help people with fertility difficulties, the then minister for health, Simon Harris, said it may “realistically” be 2021 before IVF is available through the public service, because an AHR act needed to be in place first.
Dr Conor O’Mahony, UCC law lecturer and the Government’s Special Rapporteur on Child Protection, has been asked to review issues relating to surrogacy and LGBT+ parenting.
The Supreme Court has repeatedly admonished the legislature for its failure to fully legislate in this area.
On May 5, 2020, parts 2 & 3 of the Children and Family Relationships Act (CFRA) were commenced after a five-year delay. These sections allowed for two female parents to be recognised as the legal parents of a child conceived through physician-assisted human reproduction, provided that the egg or sperm donor is placed on a traceable register so that a child can find information on their genetic heritage when they turn 18.
‘Some parents are recognised, some are not’
“The law as it stands remains very restrictive,” says von Meding. “The new legislation changed nothing for us. Before May, no LGBT+ family had both parents recognised or connected to their children; after, some families do and others don’t, so while we were unequal before, we’re even more so now.
“Strict criteria have to be met: a same-sex female couple using an Irish fertility clinic for intrauterine insemination (donor or partner’s sperm inserted into a female’s uterus) or IVF using [the woman's] own eggs is recognised. Audrey and I used reciprocal IVF – with one mother providing the eggs and one mother carrying and giving birth to the baby – and Irish law only recognises the birth mother.”
In a recent explanatory note sent to clinics, seen by Noteworthy, the Department of Health said that “in reciprocal IVF, the man who donates sperm in the DAHR procedure is the only donor” and that “under the Act, the second parent of a child born from DAHR is the spouse, partner or civil partner of the mother… a parent shall have all parental rights and duties in respect of the child born as a result of the DAHR procedure”.
However, the note is headed with a significant caveat: “This note is for information only and does not purport to be a legal interpretation of the Act.”
“We were told in no uncertain terms that we would not be covered under legislation,” says von Meding. “It was one of the big issues we discussed in our meeting with Simon Harris. We have a legal case against the Government about this, but the Attorney General just came to back us recently saying that we are covered. So we have put in our application to be jointly recognised as parents and are now told we have to wait until September as the courts won’t be processing before then [due to coronavirus].”
‘No clarity’
Noteworthy asked the Department of Health to clarify the legal situation regarding reciprocal IVF. Over seven working days later and despite multiple follow-ups, the department was unable to provide us with a response on this issue.
“It’s not covered. And then it is. There is no clarity,” says von Meding. “And they haven’t reached out to any of the people affected – like me and my wife – who were the ones querying it in the first place.”
Dr Brian Tobin, a law lecturer at NUI Galway with expertise in family and child law, believes that the legislation excluded reciprocal IVF partially because of a lack of knowledge about the practice and partially as a result of a 2009 legal case, McD vs L. This involved a female same-sex couple who asked a gay male friend to be a sperm donor. The couple fell out with the man and tried to move to Australia, but he successfully went to court to stop them and was awarded access rights to the child.
“In 2015, it was decided that excluding known donors meant that two female parents could be recognised without interference,” he says.
“This was done in good faith, but reciprocal IVF was a casualty. The legislation continues to see a genetic mother as a ‘known donor’ but simple amendments could allow reciprocal IVF to be embraced.”
Dr Lydia Bracken, assistant dean and law lecturer at the University of Limerick and the author of Same-Sex Parenting and the Best Interests Principle, says that the legislative gaps and prohibitions are an issue of childrens’ rights.
“Socially, it says these families are lesser, but it also places children in a vulnerable position. If a parent is not recognised, they have no decision-making powers around medical issues and they, for instance, can’t sign consent forms for class trips. The child of an Irish parent may lose out on their passport, citizenship, and inheritance rights.
“The CFRA does include provisions to allow someone to become a guardian, but they have to have cared for the child for two years before they become eligible, and guardianship ends when the child turns 18.”
Gay male couples remain excluded from the legislation. Daragh Nener-Lally met his partner, an Israeli citizen, in 2010. They had a civil partnership in Ireland in 2013 and got married shortly after the 2015 marriage referendum. They began the process of having a child in 2015.
“We went with a US surrogate because it seemed to offer the greatest peace of mind,” says Nener-Lally. “In Minnesota, we could get a birth cert for our child that has our names on it. But this birth cert is not recognised in Ireland which is very frustrating for us, so we can’t get an Irish passport for our daughter without being asked to sign an affidavit stating that one of us is a legal stranger.”
A surrogate is carrying a child for Nener-Lally and his husband. The baby – who will be genetically related to their first daughter – is due around the end of September.
“All we want for our family is recognition of a valid birth document from a country that Ireland has diplomatic relations with,” says Nener-Lally. “I feel let down by my country.”
While there is limited research on surrogates in Ireland, a 2018 survey of 90 countries, carried out by the international organisation Families Through Surrogacy, suggested that Ireland had the second-highest rate of surrogacy per capita in the world.
Tobin says that it is “primarily heterosexual couples who avail of surrogacy”. While international data on surrogacy is relatively scarce, evidence from the Huddersfield Repository, the UK’s Surrogacy Working Group on Surrogacy Law Reform, and the global regulatory framework which mostly prohibits same-sex couples from availing of surrogacy, suggests that the majority of people availing of surrogacy are heterosexual.
Most children born to a surrogate commissioned from Ireland were born overseas because Ireland currently has no regulations on surrogacy. Today, Ukraine - where only opposite-sex couples can avail of surrogacy – is a popular location.
As far back as 2005, the Commission on Assisted Human Reproduction recommended that the intending parents, rather than the surrogate, should be the legal parents. In 2014, the Supreme Court ruled that a genetic mother was not entitled to be registered as the legal mother to a baby which her sister carried as a surrogate – despite the surrogate fully supporting her sister.
The legislature has yet to act.
In the intervening five years since the CFRA, progress was slow but there was a sense of momentum.
In May 2019, parents around Ireland were eagerly awaiting the implementation of parts 2 & 3 of the CFR within weeks. They were about to be bitterly disappointed.
On May 23, 2019, representatives from Fertility Clinics of Ireland met with officials from the Department of Health. Following this meeting, they wrote to Harris expressing concerns that patients who had initiated treatments would be unable to continue beyond July if the law came into place.
Harris listened and acted on this clinical advice. On July 11, he wrote to the then minister for justice Charlie Flanagan, and announced that parts 2 & 3 would now be delayed until May 5, 2020. “[This] allows time for individuals or couples to plan to use donor gametes that they have already purchased and stored for future use,” Harris said.
Meanwhile, Minister for Social Protection & Employment Affairs, Regina Doherty, was championing legislation to address parental rights.
Terse correspondence
Between May and July 2019, Doherty and Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan wrote back and forth to each other, often in terse correspondence, about commencing part 9 of the CFRA, which deals with the consent of an intending mother who has a child through donor-assisted human reproduction.
30 May 2019: “Dear Charlie… This mainly affects female same-sex couples who will now be able to have the particulars of the second partner in the relationship registered, using the gender neutral term ‘Parent’, in the register of births,” Doherty wrote.
“You will recall that I received Government approval to fast-track this legislation as a priority at a time when the only other legislative proposals being considered were those related to Brexit.”
Doherty told Flanagan that as the legislation had been enacted, it was vital that he allow the relevant sections of Part 9 (relating to registration of births of donor-conceived children) to commence “immediately”.
27 June 2019: In a response, Flanagan wrote that, “as you are aware”, his department were wary of commencing the provisions of Part 9 without Simon Harris’s department having signed off on parts 2 & 3.
Flanagan sought the advice of the Office of the Attorney General as to whether there may be any legal difficulties could arise if those sections of Part 9 were to be brought into operation ahead of Parts 2 & 3. Having considered the AG’s advice – which was redacted in correspondence sent to Noteworthy under Freedom of Information - Flanagan said he would not make the commencement order for part 9.
9 July 2019: Doherty was not placated. “I would point out that there has already been a very long delay in commencing this legislation,” she replied.
29 July 2019: In a letter, Flanagan said that Part 9 would commence in October 2019, although it could not be fully operable until May 2020, when parts 2 & 3 of the Act came into effect.
Who has been lobbying on the issue?
Over the past six years, the departments of health, justice, social protection and foreign affairs received a significant amount of correspondence from members of the public and interest groups on the topics of AHR and parental rights. Noteworthy has sifted through much of these submissions, released to us under a series of Freedom of Information requests.
At the early stages of the process, fertility clinics appear to have felt left out in the cold. In February 2015, Dr David Walsh, medical director of three of Ireland’s nine SIMS fertility clinics, expressed disappointment to the then minister for children, James Reilly, that he and colleagues were not consulted.
In February 2015, the late Professor Robert Harrison – widely regarded as the pioneer of fertility treatments in Ireland – wrote to the minister for children and youth affairs “with a degree of urgency” on behalf of the Institute for Obstetricians and Gynaecologists.
“We are alarmed at the suggestion that a donor-conceived person applying for a birth certificate after the age of 18 will be informed that there is extra information available about them,” he said.
“This is not in line with international practice in countries such as the UK where anonymity is disallowed. There is undisputed evidence that the MOST devastating thing for those who are donor conceived is to find out at an older age that they were donor conceived. If they find out after the age of 18 (at 30, 40, 50!!!) that their parents have been withholding crucial information it could be devastating – far more damaging than not being able to trace the donor.”
Five years on, it’s a concern that Professor Mary Wingfield, founder and clinical director of Merrion Fertility; associate clinical professor in the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology at UCD; and one of Ireland’s leading experts in subfertility, shares.
“How do we relay this information to someone?” she asks. “There is no guidance. The safest way to do it is for people to be able to apply for it, not have it given without having asked.”
In February 2018, further submissions on the general scheme of the AHR Bill were submitted to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health by 33 individuals and interest groups, including doctors, legal experts, fertility counsellors, bioethicists and LGBT and conservative campaign groups.
Three Christian organisations opposed to assisted human reproduction and LGBT parentage, including the Alliance for the Defense of the Family & Marriage, Human Life International and the Iona Institute provided submissions against.
Dr Joanna Rose, a donor-conceived woman who campaigns for the rights of donor-conceived children after learning that the man raising her was not her genetic father, made a submission alongside Emma Friel, an assistant psychologist with the HSE.
They said that “given… the discontent among the [donor-conceived] community, it must be seriously questioned whether DAHR has any place in a humane and just society”. They also called for parts 2 & 3 of the CFRA to be commenced “without further obfuscation”.
Other submissions raised potential ethical and legal issues but were generally in favour of legislative change.
One mother wrote to Doherty about how she has had “sleepless nights” as her wife cried because she is not recognised as a parent to their son. Several same-sex parents wrote of their distress at not being recognised on their child’s birth cert and of how one of them is considered a “legal stranger” to the child they were raising.
In 2017, a woman wrote to the then minister for children and youth affairs, Katherine Zappone, about how she lacked any parental rights because she and her husband were using a surrogate after enduring six years of IVF, 12 embryo transfers and four miscarriages. She said that she was not entitled to any state benefits during unpaid leave and would not be able to apply for guardianship and adoption of her own child for several years.
Children left in limbo
Another wrote to the Simon Coveney, Minister for Foreign Affairs, in January 2019, about how, in order to secure a passport for their child, her wife was asked to sign a sole guardian affidavit in the presence of a solicitor or commissioner for oaths, stating she was the sole guardian of their child and had not entered into any arrangement with any other person to in relation to parental responsibility (such as her wife). The minister’s office advised that he was bound by the 2008 Passports Act and the legal meaning of guardianship.
Sinn Fein president Mary Lou McDonald wrote to Doherty asking when legislation might be published.
Fine Gael TD Kate O’Connell, who lost her seat at the last general election, wrote on behalf of a family with one Irish and one UK parent, expressing concern that Brexit could have implications as only the British parent is recognised on the birth cert.
Joan Collins, Right to Change TD for Dublin South Central, and Fianna Fáil senator Catherine Ardagh – then an election candidate in the same constituency – wrote to Coveney concerning the case of Sinéad Deevy and her Polish wife Kashka Sankowska, whose daughter has been effectively left stateless. Sankowska gave birth to the child and so is recognised in Irish law as the mother, while Poland will not recognise a birth cert with same-sex parents. The family has not been able to get an Irish passport for their daughter and so cannot bring her to Ireland.
Coveney told Collins that “an emergency travel certificate may only be issued to a person where that person is an Irish citizen or there is reasonable cause to believe that the person is or may be an Irish citizen”.
During the course of this investigation, some parents and prospective parents questioned whether conservative lobby groups such as the Iona Institute or the Alliance for the Defense of the Family and Marriage had been working to scupper or delay legislation. However, it appears that the Government has been primarily guided by fertility and legal experts as well as correspondence from parents in favour of legislative change.
In March 2015, now retired Fianna Fáil TD John Browne forwarded an email from the late Nora Bennis, a long-time campaigner for traditional Catholic morality, to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. Bennis said that the constitutional definition of “family means a family based on marriage of a man and a woman” and could not be changed, although it was indeed changed by referendum just over two months later. There is no record of a reply from the DCYA.
The Department of Social Protection received one email opposing legislative change from an individual who was against all forms of AHR because it involves the destruction of embryos. This individual appears to be the only person that the Department of Social Protection did not respond to.
But if conservative lobby groups didn’t delay the legislation, what else might have?
“It is hard to know why AHR legislation is taking so long,” says Wingfield. “The CAHR, of which I was a member, produced its report in 2005. Irish society has changed so much from a time that people wouldn’t talk about AHR and embryos, but one of the problems is that there isn’t a big patient lobby group because infertility is distressing and a very personal and private thing and people have enough to cope with just getting through it.”
Bracken believes that may be “a lack of political will because this takes a lot of work to get right… we have been talking about it for a long time”.
Senator Ivana Bacik, who has made major contributions to the Oireachtas debates around childrens’ rights and assisted human reproduction, has repeatedly raised concerns about the delays. “It has been very slow coming,” she told Noteworthy.
“It is complex: if you regulate surrogacy, how do you penalise those who don’t follow the regulations, because if you penalise parents, you penalise children. There is no conspiracy but there has been a lack of political prioritisation.”
A spokesperson for the Department of Health said: “Given the comprehensive scope of the legislation and the ethical, legal and social issues which arise from AHR practices, certain areas of the General Scheme are being given further consideration and refined accordingly during the ongoing process of drafting the bill in conjunction with the Office of the Attorney General.
“It is not possible at this time to give a definitive timeline for the publication of the [AHR] Bill and its subsequent passage through the Houses of the Oireachtas,” they added, but noted that the Programme for Government “affirms the Government’s intention to enact this legislation”.
This scheme envisages an AHR authority. “It should be noted that the provisions within the General Scheme do not include the regulation of Irish citizens involved in international commercial surrogacy agreements in other countries,” the Department added.
A case of the cart before the horse?
“The CFRA was rushed through before the 2015 marriage referendum but, ideally, legislation on donor-assisted human reproduction would have followed an AHR act,” says Wingfield. “Most people accept that the cart was put before the horse.”
Wingfield says that there remain many legal uncertainties and that the lack of legislation puts Ireland’s doctors in an invidious position.
“Most countries place a limit on the number of children that can be born from a donor, which is important in a country the size of Ireland. Fertility clinics and embryologists have tried to control this over the years, but it is voluntary. There’s no legislation around IVF so how many embryos do we implant? What age limits should we adhere to?
“We follow international guidelines but there is no law. Because science moves so fast and the legislature can struggle to catch up, these are decisions that should be in the hands of an Assisted Human Reproduction Regulatory Authority rather than set in legislation.
“It is an ethically challenging and complex area, but that it makes it all the more important for clear guidelines – otherwise it is a free-for-all. People give out about doctors playing God but, in the absence of clear guidelines, we have to make these decisions.”
Due to the Covid-19 crisis, the Department of Health asked Noteworthy and other media outlets to withdraw Freedom of Information requests for a period of time in March. As a result, we have been unable to access significant portions of correspondence from the Department of Health. We have now relodged our requests and will update this story when we receive responses.
This investigation was carried out by Peter McGuire, edited by Susan Daly. It was proposed and funded by you, our readers, as well as with support from the Noteworthy general fund.
Noteworthy is the investigative journalism platform from TheJournal.ie. You can support our work by helping to fund one of our other investigation proposals or submitting an idea for a story. Click here to find out more >>
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I know there’s a lot of people who will take joy in his death but people seem to forget it was the Unionist injustices in places like Derry that got the Nationalist people out marching. Then the marchers were murdered by the British Army. That is why Martin McGuinness and hundreds more young men joined the ranks of the IRA.. Nobody grows up wanting to be involved in shootings and bombings, but sometimes you have to stand up and fight for what you believe in. Pearse and Connolly would tell you the same if they were still alive today..
@Cosmo Kramer: the people who would take joy out of his death are the guys who thought it was their obligation to bear arms to protect themselves from the IRA. The true leaders are the ones like Hume who seen through the arms race that carrying a gun brings. Though you are perfectly right, Connolly and Pearse had absolutely no problem with killing anyone who had a different opinion, and their legacy was made when they were martyred (people generally overlook that Connolly was running around Dublin with guns for a while, and Pearse was a wannabe soldier shooting aimlessly at people on his day of reckoning). McGuinness and Adams are hoping for the same legacy – at least Martin was more honest and transparent about why.
PS: I must admit (even though I’m trying to be honest and not troll in any way), I also miss the red thumbs that show the sway of opinions, even if they would be biased against any anti-ira rhetoric on a day like today.
@Gulliver Foyle: Red thumbs removed to frustrate any investigation into rigging
@Cosmo Kramer: Sorry, but not sad to see him gone and Adam’s next I hope. Killing and maiming people, is not the solution and Gandhi drove British out of India without resorting to violence of that kind.
I hope the Journal allows for legitimate criticism of this man over the next few days.
Please ignore the lies, propaganda and faux-outrage of the legion of SF/PIRA supporters here.
@Gulliver Foyle: Seeing as you miss the red thumbs, you can take it that I have given you one.
@Diarmuid: what a great time you’ve picked for legitimate criticism, hours after the man has passed. I mean you do little else but criticize republicanism most days, why publicly comment that you don’t want your provocative posts removed today? “Lies, propaganda and faux-outrage”, nope, just people expressing their condolences.
Even a proud bigot like Foster can show an inkling of decorum, but not you Diarmuid, safely ensconced behind your keyboard.
And stephen murphy after adams i hope..what a sad person you are stephen.was it ok for the brits to kill catholics ?
@Diarmuid: there’s nothing wrong with legitimate criticism of his past but also there’s nothing wrong with acknowledging the good he did in later life. To ignore either is wrong.
@Diarmuid: McGuinness took up arms against one of the most powerful militaries in the world, fought for his ideals til the last few weeks of his life, while you comment on the Journal day after day hidden behind a fake Twitter account. It’s pretty obvious to me who the coward is.
@Ruairi O Neill: well no, actually it was often cowardly bombs placed in civilian locations, the towns and villages of the north, but feel free to beef up the story if you like to think of him as a hero.
@Scundered: You also spout on about how cowardly he was, also from an anonymous Twitter account.
Nothing in my previous comment denies that it was a dirty war or suggests McGuinness didn’t do wrong. But you are blinkered to the fact that he was one of the main people who helped bring about the current peace in the North.
@Ruairi O Neill:
Diarmuid doesn’t have the deaths of children and other innocent civilians on his hands. ISIS fight for their ideals as well, but when civilians are involved, it’s murder no matter what way you look at it.
No one here is condoning what the UVF, etc and British armed forces. Plenty here seem to condone what McGuinness did.
That he never owned up for those innocent lives is that mark of a true coward and enemy of the Irish Republic.
@Ruairi O Neill: Hear Hear Ruairi, a pathetic snowflake troll is all he is.
Two things are certain;
1. Without Mr McGuiness we would have violence in the north
2. Without Mr McCuiness we would not have peace in the north .
RIP
3. Without McGuinness and his moral bankruptcy, the Troubles would never have escalated to the same extent.
4. Without McGuinness and his ilk, so many more innocent civilians would be alive today.
@Diarmuid: You’re a narrow minded little man who can’t grasp the severity of the civil rights abuses that were taking place against the catholics of the 6 counties. Read some history snd understand that every oppressed people stood up for themselves at some stage when they were pushed beyond a certain point. War is never an easy choice or option but sometimes when people are backed into a corner they react with a venom that is detrimental to all . At least when the time came Martin made the choice to lay down arms and make peace with his enemies, much like other revolutionary leaders who are revered today as peacemakers.
@Diarmuid: …and thank God he overcame the likes of you and your bigoted ante-diluvian mindset to deliver the peace everyone on the island of Ireland wanted, you and your ilk being the exception of course.
R.I.P a Political Giant …
Laoch na nGael. Slán a chara. A humble man who resisted British oppression and fought for the indigenous Irish who found themselves on the wrong side of an unjustifiable border.
May Martin McGuinness Rest in Peace. I am intrigued by the bad man becomes a good man analogy especially by those who were not directly impacted and by a lazy media. The bad man experience was borne out of a set of circumstances which saw him and his community oppressed and suppressed by a largely authoritative body. Before we criticise, we need to reflect on why he and others reacted in the way they did. And how would each of us have turned out had we been raised in such an environment. There was terrible violence on all sides. If we are to learn anything it is to ensure that the circumstances which breed inequality, indifference and hate must never be enabled again. So let us start with the true beginning of the story. He was not a bad man becomes a good man. He was a man who reacted to an oppressive set of circumstances. Please do not insult the NI community for behaving badly or being feral, who finally grew up or were tamed by the authorities. These were people who refused to accept that they were secondary or third class citizens, who resisted and fought and who strove to bring about a better life for the future. Derry has to deal with the deaths of two fine men this week who showed remarkable leadership in their very different lives. May you rest in peace martin. And ThanK You and to all others like you for leading people to this place.
RIP
I was born in Belfast, and raised as a Protestant, and am quite proud of my Protestant heritage. But im just as proud of a man who stood up, admitted to his past, and strived to bring the fragile peace to this island. Himself and big Ian saw past the petty propaganda and had a vision for the children of this country. Im married to a Catholic woman and now live in Dublin, with 2 sons who will hopefully never experience the sectarianism and bigotry I did as a teenager. Thank you Martin, may you rest in peace and long may your legacy last.
What I admired about McGuinness is that he was proud of his past but was prepared to work hard at creating peace when the time came. A modern day Michael Collins you might say. I often thought history would repeat itself and he’d go the same way as Collins but thankfully he didn’t. Rip Martin.
I wonder will time treat him as kindly as Michael Collins… When you strip things to bare bones there are alot of similarities …
@Groundhurling: This is an intriguing question. Could it be that Collins had a democratic mandate from the 1918 election, while McGuinness had not? Speculation of course
@The Crant: Collins was involved in armed conflict before the 1918 election, so your attempts to obfuscate the situation are pretty vivid.
@Groundhurling: How many children did Collins kill?
Yeah I thought so..
A sad loss to the people of Ireland. A truly great statesman. RIP
RIP
War and Peace…it was an epic journey and thankfully ended in peace. We should all recognise the legacy of reconciliation he hoped to engender over the last two decades.
R.i.p Martin McGuinness,a true patriot and statesman who will be remembered for his huge contribution toward peace on this island.
Rip martin. A giant fighting for equality for all. He proved that people and their thinking can change and pushed for the talks. He showed dignity when Paisley died and offered condolences to his family, why can’t those on the other side do the same now. How many unionist have come south of the border to shake hands and meet our President or government? A historic day when martin met the queen and showed how much peace was wanted be Republicans.
Strived to bring peace to Northern Ireland and even in ill health he worked tirelessly to the end. Sad day for this island, RIP Martin.
A true statesman and gent. May we see his like again.
@The Risen: Yay more car bombs for everyone
There’s definitely a BIG drop in comments since the revamp. I predict a uturn
@vNblxOSQ: hate this new format . Pandering to the snowflake generation but don’t hold your breath on a u turn.
@Alan Chapman: let the red thumb Rest In Peace they served no useful purpose.
@Boganity: Yes they did. They showed those reading the comment section how the public viewed the comments. It’s just a pity that it was sometimes hijacked to try influence public opinion
He done some awful things in his life. One hopes in his last moments he thought about his victims
@Eye_c_u: B-Grade troll
@Eye_c_u: give his track record as a peacemaker and working the channels even as far back as the hunger strikes I would say he prevented a lot of violence taking place even as a member of the IRA back in the worst of the troubles
@Eye_c_u: freedom is always a dirty fight you clown! Read the history of any occupied land!The privilege you have to right such a comment came from our patriots such a Martin McGiuinness.
To his credit, he did stop committing atrocities at some point. Not sure how that warrants the title “peace maker”, though.
Glad to have met him in the market in Cork when he was on the campaign trail.
RIP Patriot
May he rest in peace
I always had an admiration for McGuinness’ honesty, he never shied away from his past, but acknowledged it. His hard work for lasting peace in Northern Ireland will ensure his place in history.
RIP Martin McGuiness a true son of Ireland he brought peace to N/Ireland in our time
Must have killed Foster to say something positive about the man.
@Andrew Corcoran: her interest is in maintaining the divide, she’s not fit to comment on the life of this man
A true statesman, the likes of which a nation rarely produces in a generation. He was a great leader who led from the front and was fearless in defence of his people during many many years of repression and suffering. He took risks for peace, gave example and challenged others. He has gone far too soon but his example and legacy will continue to grow and mature among the Republican people he was part of until his goal of a united, free and equal society is finally realised in Ireland.
The simple fact is That Martin Mcguinness was the one who brought the peace in Northern Ireland. The other people involved assisted him.
But HE was the one who was the Architect of the project and will be forever remembered for it.
I hope and pray that they can resume to a power sharing arrangement. It would be a fitting tribute to this great man that was Martin Mcguinness.
Rest in peace Martin,you done your job..
Thank you.
@Gerry Fallon: I guess you have never heard of John Hume in that case.
@Scundered: there’s always someone to ruin the moment isint there.
If you could just think before you spew out your sarcastic comment and try understand what I am really saying,and that is HE made the IRA realise that democracy was the only way forward and as he always admitted He WAS a member of the IRA who could talk to them.
John Hume played his part and done a great job but Martin Mcguinness Guinness was the key ok.
So chill and stop being so cynical.
@Gerry Fallon: Hume didn’t have the blood of hundreds on his hands, that’s the mark of a man of peace.
We’re now being told to “stop being cynical”aboout an organisation that bombed indiscrimately and waged a war or terror for three decades, killimg countless innocent adults and children, while at the same time claiming to be in favour of civil rights. Give me strength.
The number of people here that are utterly oblivious to the track record of english/british history on this island for centuries is shameful.Anywhere else it would be put down to patriotism, lesser evils or even collateral damage.Of course there were tragic victims and atrocities on both sides but even someone who struggles to count to twenty can see the record was massively imbalanced towards the irish people.THAT is the reason young men like martin fought and in many cases gave their lives so ponces sitting in front of a pc 30 years later would find the concept alien. I fcuking despair.
@Raymond Power: They planted bombs under innocent children for no reason other than that they were British.
A freedom fighter, a visionary, a peacemaker and a class A politician. RIP Martin McGuinness, a man who will go down in history as a true Irish patriot.
If there had been no armed struggle in 1916 – 1922 some form of independence might have been achieved here anyway, likewise in 1969 in the North. Bloody Sunday was a barbaric act by the British. All this trouble proves that invasion or uncontrolled immigration can turn a majority into a minority and leave natives strangers in their own country. Native Americans being a prime example, with the Irish impacted too. Trump see this and acts, yet he is condemned.
Martin McGuinness did work for peace, for that and saddened at his early passing, I say. Rest in Peace.
@The Crant: Did you just compare invasion to “uncontrolled immigration”, relate it to Native Americans ramble along some more, then essentially call Trump the Saviour? The same Trump willing to ploughing ahead with a pipeline endangering Native lands in North Dakota?
F*cking try harder, man. Jesus.
@The Crant: What armed struggle? If you think car bombing towns and villages is some sort of romantic textbook “armed struggle” god help us.
Rip you did well to turn things around
Red thumbs
Perhaps we should all stop commenting and just write “red thumbs” til they come back.
RIP
IF there is a heaven and IF he gets in, what do you think he will say to all those he helped to get there earlier than they should have? Especially the children?
I’m sure he’d have a hard time finding them with all the dead Iraqi, Syrian, Libyan, Vietnamese and many more children that were murdered at the hands of the British and their friends!
RIP Joanne Mathers and Mary Travers.
Dominent figure for people of Martins age from this neck of the woods. I would like to think that History will be kind to him. Will be missed on Inch. Thoughts and prayers for his family and community.
Its very easy for people from the Irish republic to comment on the dynamics of Northern Ireland’s conflict and people like Martin McGuinness or on loyalist side like David Irvine experiences in life were shaped by a political intransigence at best or total distain which suited the British political class in the uk for cultural politically and financially when most Irish southern people who comment on the violence or blame the Nationalist community refusal to continue to accepting a 2nd rate role in the affairs of the towns and communities they lived in have never crossed the border into Northern Ireland.
Southern Irish political establishment and Catholic Church even during the Hunger strikes sided with Maggie Thatcher’s world view washed there hands of the Nationalist community suffering.
During this period, after the outbreak of armed conflict in Northern Ireland in 1969, O’Brien developed a deep hostility to militant Irish republicanism and to Irish nationalists generally in Northern Ireland, reversing the views he articulated at the outset of the unrest.[18] He also reversed his opposition to broadcasting censorship imposed by the previous government, by extending and vigorously enforcing censorship of Radio Teilefís Éireann (RTÉ) under Section 31 of the Broadcasting Act. In 1976 he specifically banned spokespersons for Sinn Féin and the Provisional Irish Republican Army from RTÉ. At the same time, he attempted unsuccessfully to get Britain’s BBC 1 television channel broadcast on Ireland’s proposed second television channel, instead of allowing RTÉ to run it.
Two additional notable incidents affected O’Brien’s career as minister, besides his support for broadcasting censorship.
In August 1976 Bernard Nossiter of the Washington Post interviewed O’Brien regarding the passage of an Emergency Powers Bill. During the course of the interview O’Brien revealed an intention to extend censorship beyond broadcasting. He wished to “cleanse the culture” of republicanism and said he would like the bill to be used against teachers who allegedly glorified Irish revolutionaries. He also wanted it used against newspaper editors who published pro-republican or anti-British readers’ letters.O’Brien mentioned the Irish Press as a newspaper which in particular he hoped to use the legislation against and produced a file of Irish Press letters to the editor to which he took exception. Nossiter immediately informed Irish Press editor Tim Pat Coogan of O’Brien’s intentions. and stifled any comments under Section 31 of the Irish Republics broadcasting act was brought in by a then Labour Minister Coner Cruise O Brienn who later became a member of the unionist party in the North and O Brians family politicial background of the old Irish Parliamentary Party broadcasting act to people deemed unacceptable to the Dublin based Irish political class. The Dublin based media still are a mouthpiece for southern Neo Con Unionist mindset as per FG /FF/LAB that still comments in RTE and newspaper agendas. RTE has always swings from a Pro EU Pravda or West Brit FG/FF/LAB British Government /Unionist stance on reporting on Northern Ireland. We have the majority of the newspapers in the north controlled by unionist owners and their fellow UK based newspapers always followed a Unionist slant. Any debates was always a one sided agendas at play.I have travelled extensivley across the norhet from 7 years old to I’m my 50′s now and can say without any bias the the media in there reporting has added to the mess.
Its with great sadness I awoke today. A comrade, a leader, a gentleman passed today.
As a proud republican, it was people like Martin that showed their was a better way forward, one without guns and bombs.
To say I’m truly devastated is a massive understatement, my heart is heavy with nothing but sorrow.
RIP Martin it was a pleasure to have had conversations and listen to you speak, A true legend, Ireland has indeed lost another of its bravest sons.
Absolutely devastated :(
McGuinness and the republican movement generally used Bloody Sunday to justify the intensification of their armed struggle, but the deaths of innocent nationalists was only a concern when it could be exploited for political ends. That armed struggle saw the Provos murder more nationalists than the Paras ever did, yet there wasn’t one expression of remorse from these hypocrites. Even after the ceasefire the murders continued. Garda Jerry McCabe, Paul Quinn, Robert McCartney and others were all murdered by an organisation whose raisin d’etre was supposedly the protection of Irish nationalists. In the case of the latter, it was the south Belfast IRA unit who’d just returned from Derry following a Bloody Sunday commemoration that decided a totally innocent man should die. It takes hypocrisy to a whole new nauseating level.
@Catherine Blake: Catherine, the day after the bloody sunday atrocity, there were scores of young men queuing up in Derry and across the north. As happened during and after the hunger strikes. As happened after the Ballymurphy massacre. The biggest recruitment sergeants the IRA ever had were the British army generals and politicians like thatcher.
@Andrew Corcoran: Exactly. And following Bloody Friday- and every other indiscriminate attack before and after- the ranks of loyalist gangs became filled with people intent on revenge. That’s why the ‘armed struggle’ was counterproductive and doomed to failure: the more the IRA murdered, the more determined and radicalized unionists became. This lack of foresight by republicans who supported a murder campaign that was designed to deliver a united Ireland has retrospectively been sold to those naive enough to accept it as a campaign to deliver civil rights. By 1969, all the demands of the civil rights movement had been met and by 1972 housing allocation had been removed from local councils but for the IRA, civil rights were only a means to and end, not the end itself.
Glad the red thumbs are gone, it thwarts the shinners from trying to manipulate public comment, and voting down genuine people all the time, although they can still bombard forums like this and make negative comments about others, but at least it`s a start
@Patrick James Walsh: You another snowflake ?
In a divided land with a divided people he was a kind of mediator in the middle. He now faces judgement from the almighty who mercifully decides the good from the bad. RIP
@Michael Maher: nothing says mediation and balance as much as a car bomb in a town centre.
@Scundered: nothing says collusion like several car bombs in Dublin and Monaghan planted by British agents, assembled by British soldiers and covered up by west Brit blueshirts.
Great man rip
A great leader and true faithful man Who served his country and people to the fullest May he Rest In Peace Amen
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