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LAST UPDATE | 6 Aug 2020
THE GOVERNMENT THIS evening released the evidence it relied on to justify delaying the reopening of pubs beyond 10 August.
“The opening of pubs/bars represents a unique risk due to the consumption of alcohol and the challenge that represents when trying to encourage patrons to maintain social distancing and practice hand hygiene/respiratory etiquette,” the guidance says, citing a New York Times article from June.
The advice goes on to cite a number of cases in Spain, Australia, the United States, Canada and Korea where clusters emerged in bars.
The evidence released this evening cites 12 news sources including RTÉ, BBC and the Guardian.
The Department of Health did not release the document earlier today when requested to by TheJournal.ie but this evening it said – following comments from the Acting Chief Medical Officer Dr Ronan Glynn at today’s briefing – the guidance would be released.
This evening, when asked by reporters why the evidence of the links between pubs and Covid was not being published, Dr Glynn said:
“There’s nothing magic about this evidence. If you Google ‘Covid… Pubs’ you’ll see this and what could easily happen. It’s happened all over the world: Aberdeen, various states in America, Sydney…”
Earlier today, publicans called on the government to publish the international evidence about the link between the spike in Covid-19 cases and pubs reopening.
The Vintners’ Federation of Ireland Chief Executive, Padraig Cribben told TheJournal.ie that publicans deserve to know what that evidence is, stating that all the scientific data that is being used as the basis to keep their businesses closed should be in the public domain.
“I would like to see the evidence from the other countries, we haven’t seen it,” he said.
Before Cabinet met on Tuesday, the National Public Health Emergency Team (NPHET) gave Cabinet advice, which included urging a “very cautious” approach to the reopening.
In a letter to Government on Tuesday, acting Chief Medical Officer Ronan Glynn said that “internationally, there have been a number of examples of outbreaks of Covid-19 in bars”.
When announcing that pubs would now not be reopening next week, Micheál Martin mentioned the international evidence in relation to Covid cases and pubs abroad as being one of the reasons for why pubs in Ireland should stay closed.
“It would be nice to know what the basis of the decisions are. I mean, we all read the various advice and cases that are out there, but maybe some people might have access to more than the rest of us and we’d like to see it on that basis,” said Cribben.
He said it is “very hard to question the advice, given that we don’t know the basis at which the advice was given. So you know, you can’t question logic if you don’t have the basis of that logic”.
“I think all of the advice should be put in the public domain right now,” added Cribben.
No clusters associated with pubs in Ireland
“One thing that we do know is that pubs are open over six weeks. There have been very few cases in pubs and certainly no clusters,” he said.
Publicans are being punished for spikes occurring in other sectors, said Cribben.
Three weeks ago, areas of concern were highlighted in Direct Provision centres and meat processing plants, he said.
“If you don’t take decisive action against where the issues are. You will be looking at it in three weeks time with the same or worse results, we said that three weeks ago… and unfortunately, we were proved correct because they did not think on the areas that were then highlighted as being problematic, i.e house parties and travel.
“And worst than that, they allowed a situation to develop in meat factories and direct provision centres… and I don’t see that they’ve done anything decisive to address them now either,” he said.
He added:
“We’ve been punished for the sins of others. We’re being punished for the sins of inaction by government. And we’re being used as a pawn in a game to send a message to to the general public. Now that didn’t work three weeks ago, and there’s no reason to believe it will work now.”
Earlier today, when asked why all the documented international evidence had not been published as a matter of transparency, a spokesperson for the Department of Health said a wide range of documentation related to NPHET has been published.
The last NPHET documentation uploaded on the website is in fact three weeks old, dating from 14 July.
The spokesperson said NPHET made its recommendations in relation to pubs and bars based on:
Pubs abroad
Other countries have already reopened bars, and even nightclubs.
Across Europe, several large clusters have been associated with bars and nightclubs, including some where dozens of people were infected.
This week, Aberdeen in Scotland was put under lockdown again after a cluster arose at a pub in the city centre. It should be noted, different countries are at different levels than Ireland when it comes to Covid-19 numbers.
Guidelines for pubs
TheJournal.ie understands that draft guidelines prepared by Fáilte Ireland for the planned reopening of pubs would have seen no limit on the length of time drinkers could spend in a pub.
Had the pubs been given the green light to reopen on Tuesday, customers would not have been required to prebook a time slot – however, these measures wold only be introduced “if physical distancing of two metres is strictly maintained”.
If a pub could not meet the social distancing rules, then the same rules that are already in place for restaurants and pubs that serve food would need to be adhered to. These include the 105 minutes time limit and the pre-booking of a table.
Cribben said publicans have not been given the guidelines, but said they are willing to make any recommendations work for the industry.
“This is the first time we’ve actually seen sight of methods and ideas on what should be in the guidelines. We may have issues with some of the points but, you know, if that’s what the world is going to be, that’s what the world is going to be, give us the guidelines and give us the opportunity to make them work,” he said.
Publicans are in “despair” over this weeks’s news that they will have to keep their doors shut for at least three weeks longer.
Pensioners that own pubs
“We are we have been dealing with publicans who are actually absolutely in a state of despair for five months. Some of these people, they’re actually relying on their old age present because if you happen to be over the age of 66 you’re getting nothing. They are actually using their pension to pay the bills. This is not the household bills now, this is the business bills. That’s an incredible position to put anyone in that age in,” he said.
“The mental anguish that is out there at the moment is incredible,” added Cribben.
He called for the official guidelines to be given to publicans now, and for pubs to “given the opportunity to trade”. Engagement of a support package is needed now, not in two months time, stating that two months time is too late.
Ministers Pascal Donohoe and Michael McGrath are working on a support package for sectors such as hospitality.
Cribben said direct grants are needed now for businesses who are being forced to stay closed by the government.
Kerry TD Michael Healy Rae told TheJournal.ie this afternoon that a county-by-county reopening of pubs should be considered, something the World Health Organisation’s Mike Ryan also advocated for earlier this week.
Healy Rae said there are no cases in Kerry and the current nationwide closure of pubs is not fair.
“It is actual insanity,” he said, adding that the Fianna Fáil-Fine Gael- Green Party government is “making the last government look good – that is some achievement”.
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Its a fair request, show them the actual evidence and studies. Also i’d like for the modelers in Ireland to be held account for the alarming predictions they made in March
@Wheresmyjumper: they were forecasts not predictions. And yes there is a difference. And they were used by government as the basis for a lockdown. Even with that 25,000 people that we know of contracted Covid and 1,700 deaths associated with the disease happened. And just for the record, I agree with the publicans on this.
@Wheresmyjumper: When you forecast a terrible situation and take steps to avoid that outcome, and you do avoid it, that’s a good thing. It’s a weird idea I know!
@Wheresmyjumper:
NPHET, the HSE and the Department of Health use their models, assumptions and calculations of R to contril 5m people, refuse to share them and no one finds that unusual? In addition they will not tell us, nor will the Press and Irish politicians ask why NPHET, the CMO, the HSE and the Department of Health ignored the advice of WHO in JANUARY regarding infection prevention and control in care settings and hospitals. They will not tell us why WHO warnings and nursing homes were not discussed in NPHET meetings so there was no plan until AFTER HUNDREDS HAD DIED. Is there a conspiracy of silence on these key issues. The Press has allowed itself to be used as a propaganda unit for the Government to foster anxiety and manage people’s lives rather than inform them. Why has no one within the Press been willing to ask the questions which people ask each other every day? Is it for fear of being denied access and given stories in the future? Ireland has always been a very unforgiving place to those in the Press who dare call out the powerful. There are many examples of brilliant journalists who fell foul of rich and powerful people and ignominously dropped out of sight. Ireland has yet to move on from being the land of the Twitching Curtains and Squinting Windows, with the sad result that anonymous powerful people forever remain unaccountable. More lives will be saved if more people are told more. Make us partners in the fight. Share the information.
@Wheresmyjumper: “studies have shown” and “amount of evidence” is the way government and the media tell us “just do what I say”…
@Wheresmyjumper: those were unmitigated numbers…
@Wheresmyjumper: as of this post 171 people have thumbs upped your opening shart. Incredible stuff…
@David Clements: the modelling comment I mean
@Tony Garcia: someone has to look out for those who are incapable of looking out for themselves!
@MJF Consultants: What “brilliant journalists” are being prevented from working because they can’t get to a pub during a pandemic?
@David Clements: Let’s face it, it’s clear they were predictions and not forecast. Policy seems to be based on gut feeling rather than real evidence
@MJF Consultants: What an embarrassing thing to accidentally post from your work twitter
@Wheresmyjumper: too many gone to the virus … too few its all the same to you, youll model the argument to fit your ends, the government should have bailed out the pubs from the start its awhful they havent, ops should not have to from business costs what kinda island is this? take the pressure off them
@Matthew O’Kane: think you should read the article and the gov advice to google for the evidence!! or use the 3 week old stats they were using, then read the article about 80 cases in meat processing plant!
@Terrence Edwards: how is it so hard for some people to understand that? The restrictions worked. Its not rocket science. Puzzling.
@Terrence Edwards: yep…but given the significant damage and impact lockdowns have – it is not unreasonable to ask the experts to demonstrate the effectiveness of the different measures – for example using the social distance /hand hygiene measures in some countries was equally as effective as not letting people drive further than 2km in a self isolated car – they are very selective in what evidence they use to take major major decisions – the damage to mental health and peoples livlihoods is untold atm. – there is also something very wrong when they spin this ‘all in this together ‘ nonsense when large sections of them are completely unaffected in pay for example while some see livlihoods decimated – all in this together should mean sweeping cuts in pay for everyone to pay for the national pandemic – not luck of the draw that you are a teacher or senior civil servant and on full pay while many others are decimated – it is BS we are all in this together – the inequity is stark.
@MJF Consultants: 100%
@MJF Consultants: the R rate has not been a secret, just becaise you don’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not reported, and I don’t mean in a hidden corner of the Internet somewhere, RTÉ had an article about it being 1.8 yesterday. On nursing homes, NPHET set up a working group to deal with the issue of nursing homes in late March when clusters started to emerge. Believe it or not we are partners in the fight but it requires us to read/listen. Something you’ve just displayed an unwillingness/inability to do
@Mickety Dee: no they weren’t. And if you don’t understand that you have no right to discuss this here.
@Dave Hammond: Nothey are not.
@MJF Consultants: Spot on. All commentators, medics and politicians congratulating the public on adhering to social distancing, hand washing and staying out of crowds etc., while the dogs in the street could see they were not. House parties, cheating and trickery to get into pubs and every TV report showed crowds behaving as they did before.
Garda gave token attention saying only a small percentage of people were not observing restrictions and the virus spread and spread. You only need one person to start a full scale spike. Now with practically no enforcement due to Garda overtime cuts, it’s spreading and heads back in the sand. Only when non-adherence is punished severely will the virus be eliminated.
@David Clements: what’s the difference between a forecast and a prediction?
I want the pubs to open as much as the next person, but the Vintners can take a long walk off a short pier. I don’t trust them with my safety for a second and I’m still salty with the lobbying they did that led to the 10pm off license cut off.
@Terrence Edwards: so what about the ones that are already opened?? Personally I haven’t heard of any clusters. Correct me if I’m wrong.
@Its Me: I’ve been to a few that are opened, a couple were brilliant about how they were handling things and I left a couple because I didn’t feel safe at all. The guards are already shutting places down who are breaching the regs. I truly feel for the businesses that are struggling and I hope there’s some sort of a solution we can find that means an earlier opening, but the pubs are not up to the task of policing guidelines properly.
@Terrence Edwards: and the gangs of young lads,and aul lads partying in houses, up on top of each other ,instead of in socially a distancing environment makes sense ,and the €9 burger makes it better ,they are floundering…there was some authority about Leo and Harris,this new crew are hardly inspiring.
@Its Me: Sorry, to follow up, the places that are open SHOULD be operating as restaurants with plenty of social distancing and limited seating times. Not an ideal cluster situation. If proper bars and clubs are open and one infected person spends a few hours in a sweaty crowd we could be up to a few hundred or thousand cases within a fortnight and we’re right back where we were at the start of march.
@Gerry Campbell: The €9 meal prevents you from barhopping, I’m not sure what’s so difficult for people to grasp there. You go to a pub for a few, have some grub, get booted out after a couple of hours – you can’t just move on to the next place without shelling out for more food. You visit fewer places, you come into contact with fewer people, you still get your pints. It makes sense
House parties could become a problem, we’ve just been lucky enough that the cases are CURRENTLY low enough that the chances of being at a party and catching something are equally low. That also changes if cases go up. Just because something hasn’t currently led to an increase doesn’t make it less of a risk
@Gerry Campbell: The €9 meal was to allow restaurants to open. In a restuarant you are seated, there is table service and you tend to remain sober. It is a controlled environment where Social Distancing is easy to maintain. In a pub many people are standing, there tends to be no table service, people tend not to remain sober. It is an uncontrolled environment where social distancing is impossible to maintain.
THAT IS WHY THE PUBS ARE CLOSED.
@sean o’dhubhghaill: agreed on not trusting the vintners, might as well take advice from O’Leary if people are listening to them.
I didn’t know there had a hand in the offies, scrouts.
@Terrence Edwards: you do know even when they open there is no law to say you have to go.. Look after your own health not up to publicans, if you don’t trust them don’t go
@sean o’dhubhghaill: TEND,TEND,TEND = WHATABOUTRY, and just because you use caps doesn’t make anything you say FACT
@Da_Dell: But that is the reason why pubs are closed and restuarants open!
@sean o’dhubhghaill: Yes I agree with you whataboutery is the reason pubs are closed, with a little bit of snobbery on the side.
@sean o’dhubhghaill:
Yes and open the pubs on them strict regulations, pub i go with no food, u go to a table, it’s table service only and anyone who try and go to other tables u are told to sit down.
Actualy the new regulations that they are bringing into the pubs and resteraunts that they have to be closed by 11 am, which would help social distancing
@Terrence Edwards: Frank Fell 1994 world cup strike and banba
@Terrence Edwards: Stay home so
@Declan Sweeney: pm surely….
There is a serious victim complex to the VFI. “We’re being punished” etc etc. Do they really think that the government actually want to close an industry that employs 20,000+ people and brings in huge tax revenues? It’s wild how much airtime the publican lobby gets in this country.
@Alan Barry: whats your feelings on the workers in meat processing plants eh ?
@Alan Barry: Even madder how much time they get in the Dail !
@JP Pilibin: vintners claim to be a ‘pawn in their game’. What ‘game’ would this be?
All pubs should be open with same guidelines restrictions and monitored by gardai or hse
@Richard Doherty: How? Could you imagine A HSE employee going into a packed pub full of drunk scobies? And then telling them they are in breach. Get a life.
@Fred the Muss…:
Any trouble clearing it, call the cops
@Declan Sweeney: would ya stop. Damage could be done by then. Drunk people arent going to give a toss. And I’m dying for a pub session. Will people stop going on like it’s all we live for. The jobs and businesses are the only real concern here at the moment. But that’s not what most peoples agenda is.
@Richard Doherty: yeah right…. For the birds
European Café culture inbound… Irish pub culture going to be extinct shortly
@a politicians promise is as good as a lie:
This idea that pub culture in Ireland is massively different to the rest of Europe is a bit of an exaggeration. There isn’t a massive difference between Dublin City center and Berlin or Paris
@european liberal: ah jaysus there is. Show me anywhere on the continent like a rammed Grogans or Long Hall on a winter’s evening. Not to mention the trad sessions all over every town and village. I’m not saying it’s better but it’s very different.
@european liberal: Even if that were true, which it definitely isn’t, we’re not talking about just Dublin
@european liberal: Not been to Berlin but certainly never saw 8 people sit for 3 hours over two coffees on a Friday night in Ireland. Have in Paris though.
@NotMyIreland: What were you doing watching 8 people for 3 hours. Creepy.
@a politicians promise is as good as a lie: Well Said
This is the only way Rural Pubs will survive in the Future
Food must be Really good and good value for money
Rural Pubs have been Closing down long before Corona
@a politicians promise is as good as a lie: it is going that way and has been for a while
@a politicians promise is as good as a lie: Not a chance in hell that will happen here. There will be some but the pub will always be a pub.
Absolutely spot on too, they can’t produce any evidence because there isn’t any whatsoever.
Blame the pubs despite there being zero clusters from any, blame foreign travel and try and get everyone to stay at home in the rain when the reality is hardly any cases in the last 2 months have been due to travel.
You couldn’t make this up if you tried..the worst government of all time, and I’ve been around a while so that’s saying something.
@Jonny:
Cluster in Zurich the weekend they opened clubs and bars.
@Jonny: Of course there are zero Clusters from pubs. They are closed. The ones that are open are serving food with table service and social distancing.
@Wreck Tangle: that’s Switzerland not Ireland.
@sean o’dhubhghaill: let’s not fool ourselves here, you know as well as anyone many of these pubs serving the €9 covid meal are serving way beyond the ridiculous time limit and rightfully so it’s one of the most bizzare rules any government has ever implemented , and even those who aren’t people in groups are making multiple bookings in numerous pubs so they can stay all night, this alone poses a greater risk as if anyone did happen to have the virus they’d be infecting numerous people in many different pubs, whereas the chances are they wouldn’t feel to need to go on a pub crawl if they could just stay in a pub for a few hours and the situation wouldn’t be as serious then.
I think I’ve made my point here.
@Jonny: agree and no cases from foreign travel. But 11 more cases in Wexford from local travel
@sean o’dhubhghaill: Some places doing a really good but some are not even going through the motions… the quays in Galway is a total joke, its business as usual with a slice of cheese for €11!
@Jonny: Zero clusters from pubs because they are closed. Where they have opened they get clusters.Aberdeen for example
Absolutely a fair call. And while they’re at it, please explain the difference between here and for example Germany where they have opened up with a higher infection rate. The curve has been flattened and hospitals are empty. Keep your end of the bargain government and stop moving the goal posts…
Wow, publicans are secret epidemiologists. Gone be the days when you had to know how to pull a pint.
@Matthew Gorman: Well they aren’t good at cleaning the toilets….
@Matthew Gorman: they sound far , far wiser than the government and the epidemiologists that cite those studies that they don’t show or a New York Times article . Go figure
Open the pubs ffs
No government should be accountable to a lobby group! Quick Google search will provide enough info. Best case, look at US where Corona surges are associated with bars being open.
I’m living in Switzerland where despite bars being mainly outdoors at this time of year, there’s been 3 clusters out of bars/clubs.
Easy to believe that the government are doing this for the sake of it but it’s not in anyone’s interest to leave bars shut, especially the government.
@Wreck Tangle: how many bars are in Switzerland? Trying to see the ratio etc, whats the general story there at the mo ? Im moving there in October hopefully.
@Da_Dell:
Life is good here, the swiss can be strange, some islanders can’t handle it but most of us enjoy it. People here are compliant and they don’t whinge. There wasn’t really a lockdown as a result. The bars and clubs are OK, I think Zurich has the highest ratio per head population of clubs in Europe, most cities I’ve been have nine places. You’ll easily pay 10 eur for a beer so drinking on balconies or by a river/lake etc is normal. Easy access to other countries, finish work. Can’t beat leading office early on Friday, working on the train and stepping off in Paris. Climate is really nice. Try to learn the language of whatever region you are moving to now, makes life easier, you’ll b2 level to have an idea what’s going on. Good luck with your move.
@Wreck Tangle: Yes Zurich thanks, expensive, but in a fair way from what ive been able to figure out. Hope Ive made right decision, applied for transfer the day that new gov was formed, and got accepted same day, not my usual style to be that rash, but seeing what has gone on here every day since is confirming to me anyways from my pov
@Wreck Tangle: Agree with you on Lobby groups, but our lot are governed by a lot of unknown ones, it should be made public when a decision is made that any lobbying group had input into.
@Wreck Tangle: Cheers for info, my French is ok, but have been learning German for a while now as work for a German company albeit English is the company language.. They bough a company in Switzerland, who were iin Zug where French is main language i think and moving to Zurich in October where German is main language, I think.
@Da_Dell
Zug is a German speaking town. The name comes from the noun der zug/ which means pull.. Relates to fishermen pulling nets from the lake many years ago. Zurich swiss german and Zug swiss german are quite different, you’ll have fun with it.. Give me a shout on twitter if you need anything. Have a good one
@Wreck Tangle: cheers man, again thanks for info, seems like I getting some miss information from me own bosses
@Wreck Tangle: cheers man, again thanks for info, seems like I getting some miss information from me own bosses
@Wreck Tangle: might meet ya in the middle somewhere
@Wreck Tangle: might meet ya in the middle somewhere
@Wreck Tangle: so if clusters are the criteria, why havent all meat plants been shut down?
@Wreck Tangle: fair play.
@Joan Murray:
I didn’t talk about criteria.
@Joan Murray: There are many fold more pubs in the country than there are meat processing plants and building sites, thus much harder to monitor. Also pubs are frequented by random pockets of people, where as meat processing plants and construction sites are frequented by fixed, traceable groups. Most importantly though, we need food processing plants and construction to put a roof over your head and food in your stomach. Pubs serve to drain people’s finances, put pressure on the health care system and line publican pockets.
Why aren’t the Authorities doing something about the pubs that have no kitchens to prepare food but are open none the less because they have plates with knives and forks on the tables, along with the local takeaways menu…?
@Paul Casey: They are though. Pubs are being checked, not just pubs. I was staying in the Europe Hotel in Killarney the week they opened. It’s a 5 star hotel, outside of Killarney so it’s a destination and the Gardai were in checking on compliance. Funnily enough, as we were going to the main bar (have to check in and residents only) a random couple were trying to get in and were refused as they weren’t residents.
In fact, only yesterday it was reported that 24 pubs were found in breach of guidelines, 22 the week before and 20 the week before that.
So yes, authorities are doing something about said pubs. They are just in a minority, most are being sensible because they aren’t stupid enough to risk their license.
@Paul Casey: were you in one
@Paul Casey: if you’re serving a substantial meal for €9 and adhering to guidelines then what difference does it make whether they’ve a kitchen or not. They’re adapting, surviving and teaming up with another local business. Fairplay
@Reuben Gray: In fairness, 24 out of 3500 is nothing to get your knickers in a twist.
@Alonso: Its against food hygiene laws. Have they temperature records for food served I wonder?
@Paul Casey: law says must buy food for at least €9 nothing about needing to actually have a kitchen or a chef
@NotMyIreland: They are allowed to bring food in from other Food outlets
@Paul Casey: the cuckoo’s nest years ago during the holy hour bona fide house and the rest. The old stage houses that really is where that law comes from serving food.
WOW they literally just Googled “Covid…. pubs” and cited news articles as their evidence, no scientific studies or anything just few News articles, what else do they “Google” for to inform their decisions, it’s farcical
@Thornto84: yip and other info googlers are called tin foil hat wearers.
@Da_Dell: Yeah that’s for sure and well they just lost the use of that in an argument anyways
Not a hugh surprise this lobby group doesn’t care about public health given the bussiness it is in.
@Niamh Hayes: Now Niamh, most businesses dont really. Most play lip service to it, to create a sense of doing the politically correct thing. My crowd while a fairly decent company have all the bells and whistles around health etc, the usual mindfulness blah blah stuff. Most work related health issues reportedly are stress related due to being overworked and/or working long hrs and the nanby pandy mindfulness type stuff is ever going to cure those facts. Imho most of the health type policies even in the most respected companies are completely at odds to the ways of working in those same companies.
@Da_Dell: And I should add to my comments above that I don’t personally expect them to do so either, afaik my health is my responsibility and no one else’s.
@Niamh Hayes: well that make absolutely no sense if they open numbers rocket I’ll give you two guesses what would happen……
@Niamh Hayes: no nor never did. Just keep horsing out those pints no matter what the situation. Spent all your money on booze, yeah no problem, we’ll sub you until pay/dole day. No we never destroyed any lives, relationships etc. Now they want sympathy. Not exactly an essential industry is it!
@Premier Fitters: I suppose you do a free health check for your customers etc etc, do ya blame all business for the deeds of their customers or what ? Ever here of personal responsibility eh ? If a publican refused me a drink on the premise of it being detrimental to my health, id tell him where to shove it. I suppose you with your superior morality refuse to do work for publicans ? And I hope Publicans in your area never use your services.
@Premier Fitters: I’ll look forward to never using your services
@Premier Fitters: Banks and Politicians and people themselves destroyed more lives than Pubs.
@Da_Dell: dipstick I wasn’t addressing you
@Premier Fitters: Typical of you, make a comment and then wont answer when questioned on it. I hope you had some time to go over the 2 pages of amazin scientific evidence that the gov spent months on for keeping pubs closed .. I know you cant answer the question on what criteria you require to serve customers, but throw insults instead .. No worries keep it going, your are credit to your business, Id say you are really impressing potential customers and all. maybe better to talk offline someday im passing .. See how good you are at insults then pal.
Now people are moving the goal posts, these are easy questions for the government to answer. Where did the 11pm rule come from and why is it there? That’s what I really want to know, I can’t see any good reason for that rule.
@Shannon butler: incremental imposition of stricter control; that is all. Look forward to curfews… to fight the spread of the virus outdoors at night of course..
@Shannon butler: slow boil of the frog. What I want to know is, when the hell will people start freaking hopping out?
Perspective from abroad here if anyone wants it. Based in Vancouver we had cases from Wuhan and Iran at the start before the wave from Europe and eastern coast of USA. After a couple of months of shutdowns pubs opened up but its all table service here anyways and different capacity tables are spaced out further or existing ones are closed off every second table. All staff wear masks. Menu is online through your phone where you can pay also which is handy. Sanitizer everywhere give name and number on entry. Groups no more than 6. All bars here serve food anyways. Some have screens erected between tables or dividing bigger long tables or at the bar. When nightclubs opened it resulted in clusters and they all pretty much closed quckly. Korea had similar cases. Look at usa
@Niall Carry: Are you saying that opening the pubs was ok, but opening nighclubs was not ?
@Da_Dell: nightclubs they tried and it didn’t work for reasons feared. Nightclubs had no real social distancing no table service its nothing like a bar here. Irish pubs work like a nightclub people stand about hop table to table if that makes sense!? Irish pubs just work in a totally different way table service and food all the time that’s not a carver is a pretty foreign concept to country local pubs. Not really sure what you meant but that answers maybe?
@Niall Carry: ok i get you no worries, makes no diff now really, gov eventually produced an 2 pager with amazin scientific evidence to support keeping pubs closed .. Should be now very interesting to see the evidence to support the decision to open meat processing plants and allow them to remain open after multiple incidents, after the story of the 80 cases in one meat processing plant . If same logic is applied they will need to nuke those plants.
Total Nonesense, police state now
@Mos: when will people say “ENOUGH is ENOUGH”?
They are dead right. We would all like to see the data they are using. I wonder if it has been peer reviewed? They are making it up as they go along. It’s obvious that those in NPHET are anti alcohol anyway. The fake distinction between pubs that serve food and those that don’t is laughable. If I was a publican that had a “wet house” I would be investigating the possibility of taking the government to court for loss of earning at the very least and maybe a class action of employees for the same reason.
@fergal o connor: I agree, but class action lawsuits aren’t used in our legal system, there is a lesser alternative which is rarely used and vaguely referred to as Representative Action Procedure – I say vaguely because it’s not representative of any action without particular stipulations being met to pursue a case, so, all parties have to have one interest and bring a case as a group – which is difficult to ascertain, much less resolve.
So Ronan Glynn actually said to Google Covid and Pubs and this is the acting chief medical officer talking, my God this gets more and more surreal every single day, a shambles of a government making things up as they go along, and an acting Chief medical officer citing Google searches as being evidence, Jesus the lunatics really have taken over the asylum, the worst part is some people take all this as gospel,surreal and bizzare.
@Jonny: it’s like an episode of father Ted but it’s not funny .
@Isabel Oliveira: im actually embarrassed to be Irish with clowns like this running the show, shocking.
@Jonny: it’s crazy I had to read it twice to make sure that’s what he said, how can anyone defend this, it’s and insult really, worse thing is come 6 pm we will have the usual suspects here telling people its the end of the world again and wear a mask, say they googled that too to the info
@Jonny: Ronan Glynn needs to google ‘Israel’ and ‘schools’. Bingo; -another NY Times article.
@longstrides: Wait till he Googles 6ft tall and Covid 19, we’ll all be crawling on the ground
What evidence? Anecdotal evidence…no science behind it?
What set up was there in the pubs where cases happened?
If they’re just basing their response to Covid by Googling it we may as well get rid of them!
@Joe: aye
Not bothered about them. The current pubs in my town that are open don’t give a crap about the rules. Close them too please.
There is no evidence.. Niphet are spinning this.. The numbers don’t tally…The pubs are open in most cases so langer Martin and his merry men are like dogs chasing their tails..
On national tv the other night the Taoiseach couldn’t clarify when phase4 would start now…absolutely embarrassing.
@Barrsball Rebel: do you feel silly now that they have released the evidence
@Tony Lyons: seems like it’s all just anecdotal; a lot of “ifs”, “coulds”, “mights”. No “evidence” though..
@Tony Lyons: Did you read that 2 pages of amazin scientific evidence, it was trully astounding !! The evidence to support the opening the meat processing plants and allow them to remain open after multiple incidents will be riveting .. That evidence prob fitted into a brown envelope !
@Tony Lyons: they read a few articles. It’s probably the right decision but if this is how they came to the conclusion it’s laughable. No direct investigations made themselves, no official data from other countries, just hey the Guardian said etc. Literally anybody could do that.
@Tony Lyons: Evidence? You mean someone done a quick Google search and decided to keep 1000s of people out of work and business closed, should be sacked for that, people in this country have lost their minds it seems
@Tony Lyons: not really… it’s a copy and paste from what’s happening elsewhere..Study the data…Again its inclusive nonsense.. More spin from leadership..
I would suggest the VFI try Google, below is a link from the Scottish Govt outlining the 28 pubs at the centre of the outbreak in Aberdeen, it’s an expandable list half way down the page.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-local-measures/#Bars%20linked%20to%20the%20Aberdeen%20outbreak
Meat factory in kildare had one case 7 days ago but was only closed today after its 80th case was reported but its the pubs that are the problem. I realise one is a necessary and the other is recreational but the gastro pubs that have opened have had no reported cases thus far yet if the second wave hits hard they will be closed while factories flaunt rules and play with people’s lives. The big meat producers in this country have to much power and they need to start abiding by the rules the rest of the country has to. Give the pubs a chance under the current Failte rules and imidate closure to any pub found flaunting the rules.
@Adrian Boland: what’s wrong is their tracing that’s nowhere up to scratch but they don’t admit it. A cluster in a meat factory and they only closed it now after 80 cases . Bet you they haven’t traced families ? Neighbours etc. We all pay the price by being sentenced to unemployment with a New York Times atléticos as evidence .
The government’s evidence is an article from the New York Times from June ? Just how far down ridiculous road are these guys willing to go ? Clusters in food processing but alcohol ? dahhhh!!!! Are these a government and scientists or a sect of preachers hell bent on having the tourism & hospitality people im mass unemployment ?
@Isabel Oliveira:I know it’s completely and utterly bizzare and surreal almost, actually beggars belief Ronan Glynn has come out with this.
@Jonny: they’re taking the mick now Johnny . Honestly. It’s insulting and many people allow this carry on like turkeys asking for Christmas.
@Isabel Oliveira: they should then read the current NY Times article about Israel’s spectacular fail with the re-opening of their schools. (Subscription needed but still a good read).
@Isabel Oliveira: it’s madness basically keeping 1000s of people out of work and risking people’s businesses and livelihood on a Google search and cherry picking few news articles !!!
@longstrides: fail? Why? Let me guess: “cases”.
It’s a #casedemic now
Let’s all stop living forever so we can avoid dying.
This insanity needs to be ended.
https://twitter.com/newscomauHQ/status/1291267767522533379?s=20
What was flipn updated in this article @ 10.56 ? And where do we look at this evidence that is referenced?
Can you now go and get the evidences to support reasons why Construction sites and meat processing plant were allowed to open and more importantly why allowed to stay opened after multiple incidents dating back to May ?
@Da_Dell: oh sorry, the evidence is on the net and were to google it !!! You couldn’t make this tripe up .. and some people called tin foil hat wearers !!
I would listen to government/experts before I would listen to publicans on the opening of drink only bars. We should wait until it is safe and in the process probably save lives.
@camio55: thats very accepting of you. Have you read the article about the 80 cases in the meat processing plant, with some other incidents dating back to May. I suppose you will be also fully accepting of the govs decision to open these and allow them to stay open !
@camio55: watch out for that Nigerian prince , he will soon be on to you, Id warn you but you prob wouldn’t listen anyways.
@camio55: so your willing to listen to an acting Chief medical officer who actually said to Google Covid and Pubs when asked to produce evidence that there was clusters in pubs in Ireland, are you actually serious
@camio55: why would you need to listen to them you can just Google it yourself cut out the messenger
@Da_Dell: food is essential alcohol is not
@Tony Lyons: Whats that got to do with this evidence malarky eh !! The workers health in the meat processing plants is essential, getting food in a restaurant is not either, nor getting a hair cut .. Read the article on the 80 cases and provide your wisdom their, maybe you can explain the evidence to allow them to be opened and remain open after mutiple actual confirmed incidents
@camio55: our experts just told us to Google the information. So it’s toasties and Google that save lives?
There is no evidence, just like there no evidence of office workers hence why it’s all precaution. Where applicable work from home. Drinking in a pub is not a necessity. (But we all know, we’re intoxication is involved, inhibition goes out the window). Look at meat processing plants. No intoxication involved, but still there is outbreaks imagine if the pubs did open? There may be a rise in cases, to point where the the crumbling health system can’t cope all due to unnecessary actions. Sure they can’t cope with cancer patients as it. . so to you the vinters, go take and run and jump. Your business, like many others has been tested, many have overcome and adapted. Stop complaining and get on with it.
@Thomas: you and your imagination, maybe a case can be made for sometimes wearing a tin foil hat !
I’ve heard people sarcastically refer to Dr Google – now I know what they meant except this time these so-called medical experts are controlling our lives, literally.
Btw, if Google is such an amazing bona fide source of academic-scientific-medical information, why do we need two expert medical councils, as well as the HSE, health dept., health minister and other high paid civil servants in various departments? Not to mention Varadkar who has an opinion on everything – seriously, he’s like Shane Ross, he piggy-backs on every media opportunity so he can get to hear his own voice and punch down the little people of Ireland.
Also, where are the opposition parties?
@Lao Tzu: Oppostion parties have been silenced by the media
.. plus now people cant use the tin foil hat wearer deflection tactic for people using google
@Da_Dell: I should say any disenting voices or narratives have been silenced by the media .. in the early days, when all going well the media were falling over themselves to congragulate leo and simon .. as things start to slide the narrative has chaged to blame people and pubs
Pubs have never closed in Korea. In the outbreak they had in a few clubs, they were closed for a week. Traced everyone within a few days. Why can one country (and others) do it but we can’t?
This would be fun to watch……
The evidence is…. where people meet up there is potential for Covid to be transmitted & in most places people are not consuming a substance that makes them less likely to make good decisions and practice safe social distancing.
@Davis Payne: Resturants are selling alcohol and worse from my pov wine, a bottle of wine has more units than a pint .. in this country drininking a bottle of wine in a sitting is binge drinking
@Da_Dell: Drinking a bottle of wine ANYWHERE by yourself is binge drinking! One third of your WHO recommended weekly limit in one sitting.
@sean o’dhubhghaill: OK SEAN, I CAN HEAR YOU, NO NEED TO SHOUT, I DO WEAR GLASSES BUT AM NOT HARD OF HEARING!
@Da_Dell: perhaps they shouldn’t be allowed open either.
Whingers with no sense of public duty.
@John Redican: Would ya ever leave the Gov alone, they fully deserve their pay rises and holidays…
@John Redican: Are you actually serious?
@John Redican: yeah . Public duty to preach like pioneers and cite non existing studies while creating mass unemployment in travel and hospitality . Some public duty .
There’s the publicans “Cribben” again….
@Simon Connolly: Cribben is it? Is that actually even a word? Get a grip (and a dictionary). People’s livelihoods are at stake here. The virus will be with us a long time. Why is one sector being destroyed? Look at Israel. Ask them was it a good idea to open schools?
@Simon Connolly: Pity the meat processing workers didnt do a bit of cribben
1768 humans dead is that enough evidence….
@Liam Meade: wow, were did that evidece state they were all pissed and not social distancing in a closed pub ?
@Da_Dell: Ouch! That’s too logical of a thought process you have going on there – get back under the duvet and listen to RTÉ!
@Lao Tzu: I need to get under the duvet, but RTE is pushing it :-)
I don’t think its a good idea, I have no desire to go to a pub, but I am getting to the point where I wish they would just open the pubs, come what may.
Let people do what they want, they won’t social distance after a few drinks as everyone knows and if it all works out then fine, if not and there is a massive rise in covid 19 infections and ICU’s become inundated with people that can’t breathe without a ventilator, then we can decide what we want to do at that point.
Because frankly I am sick and tired of listening to the complaining from both the publicans and people that can’t live without the pub.
@David Van-Standen: im sick and tired of the likes of you concerned about what might happen when plenty to be concerned about what has happened and is happening. Maybe go read the article about the 80 cases in the meat processing plants. ..: or maybe dont as you might need to be hospitalised from the ramp up of you tiredness and sickness.
In fact in glad they closed cause likes if you would be blaming pubs for that too.
@Da_Dell: Isn’t the anonymity of the internet just great for expressing your selfrightous indignation at “the likes of me”
Throughout this entire Covid 19 pandemic, I like others have taken the view that, I have a duty to protect others by taking all possible precautions, social distancing, sanitising and mask wearing since March of this year.
But to a large extent this has been completely undermined by the majority, who once they decided that they personally would not die, even if they were infected covid 19 and this attitude has only increased since the lockdown was lifted.
If any lesson can be learned from this entire episode, it is that regardless of claiming to support front line workers on social media, the majority don’t really care about anything or anyone but themselves.
@David Van-Standen: Fair play to you, keep wearing your mask while you’re being fed propaganda under your duvet – in the meantime, can the rest of us get on with our lives? Who pays taxes towards the wonderful health system to which you are referring? Who teaches our children? Who looks after our more vulnerable members of society? Who puts food on the table while you’re in lockdown heaven scared out of your wits?
Some people like to be controlled and told what to do, I’m not one of them. Educate yourself – Google is a reliable source apparently – take whatever measures you deem necessary, but don’t be so judgmental, paranoid or gullible.
@Lao Tzu: Thanks for your own judgemental comments. I am a essential worker and have asca result spent zero time under my duvet in lockdown.
I am also not scared out of my wits, just applying a pragmatic approach I would to any health and safety issue, by using appropriate ppe and sanitising procedures, based on the available data.
@David Van-Standen: Says the person with no FB profile to his account .. Ive been wfh since 1st week in March pal, Ive been going throught a virtual house confinement, im doing my bit. When Leo relaxed the rules to boost his popularity polls and suit his political career, never mind his drinkin bare chested in the park, nor his house party, the genie was out of the bottle, the toothpaste was out of the tube. You spout anedoctal speel as if its fact .. did u even read the 2 pages of amazin scientific evidence that the gov used to make decision on pubs ? wonder what evidence was used to allow the opening of the meat processing plants and allow them to remain open after multiple incidents eh ! That evidence should be truly riveting, but I suspect it fitted into a brown envelope.
@David Van-Standen: I work with a Francois Van-Standen, I suppose your no relation …
@David Van-Standen: Im glad the pubs are closed now, casue they would be now blamed for the Govs misshandeling of this crisis from the public aspect, they have handled it brillantly in terms ot their political careers of course
@David Van-Standen: How come when all was going well during the early phases of this pandemic that leo and simon were taking all the praise from the media and their paid for fan boys and girls, but once its not its the peoples fault eh !
@David Van-Standen: I’ll say this and no more, seeing as you are such a pragmatic person: where are the taxes to pay your salary as an essential worker expected to come from if we are in Phase 3 indefinitely? We’re still in debt from the monumental f*** up of previous governments, Brexit, politicians’ salaries and expenses, NCH, NBP, NAMA, HSE, Covid-19 payments etc., A vaccine for SARS 18 years ago still hasn’t been created, do you really think we should wait for a vaccine for Covid-19 – or one of Harris’ 18 versions first? Without people working and paying taxes, we have NO money to help people who are ill – Covid related or otherwise – it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy on so many levels.
We are in the early stages of a massive recession which will overshadow the last one by billions, yet, our governments are doing the complete opposite of what it takes to avert a recession – people want to work, people want to get their life back to normal which includes paying taxes, we are social beings – it’s in our nature, but you cannot cripple the entire economy of a nation based on a civil servant’s control over a weak government – particularly when that same individual cites Google as a reputable source of data. If you ever lose your job and need to avail of social welfare/ hospital services then remember that it’s those who want to work, are working/ paying taxes who are tiding you over until your next job and paying your hospital bills.
Michael Healy-Rea calls it “insanity”. When this guy refers to something as insane, it’s got to be INSANE .
@Virus-free Turkey: The original catch 22… You need to be sane to recognise insanity !
@Virus-free Turkey: what crazier is when they may have a point. As many say here when defending our infallible leo, play the ball not the man..
Whatever brainboxes are organising children being back to school ‘by the end of August’, quoting Varadkar, might want to google
‘schools’
and
‘Israel’
This Govt has staked its reputation on getting 1million students back in the classroom, full-time.
@longstrides: excellent
@longstrides: Israel? Let me guess: “cases”?
Since the lockdown was lifted for pubs serving food I have been visiting my local.
No time keeping
One in three has food
Toilets still filthy
Garda have visited twice. Satisfied both times.
One other local still closed because they have no kitchens.
Please tell me what is the difference between a pub that sells food and is filthy and another local which is spotless but not allowed open?
This is a very real Irish issue.
@Ciaran Daly: If I were you I’d either stay away from your ‘local’, or, if you’re that concerned, run the pub yourself and show them how it’s done.
P.S. You could also go out with a few friends and just enjoy yourself – bring hand sanitiser and baby wipes if you want…
@Ciaran Daly: I suspect not enough brown envelopes as was received to allow the meat processing plants to open and remain open after multiple incidents and to keep the sheeple arguing over wether pubs should open or not while do not look over there at those incidents.
Ah the Healy Rae’s looking for special treatment again for their constituents (read as profit) of course Kerry people should be allowed drive after 3 pints and of course Kerry pubs should be allowed open, nothing at all to do with their vested interests, just like when they told people not to pay water charges despite earning €1.6 million from contracts from Irish water or the €7 mil they earned from Kerry council over the last 20 years, but of course they just want to do right by Kerry voters
@Simon Carroll: maybe go read the article about 80 cases in meat processing plant and then revisit your great wisdom.
@Simon Carroll: and fcuk the super quango that is Irish Water
Varadkar spin doctor John Concannon repeatedly broke lockdown travelling from Galway to Dublin on dublinlive cannnot add link
Thinking about it. The theory for opening would be that the punters would need to sit 2m apart as they aren’t restaurants.
At the beginning of the introduction of social distancing it was said that pubs would need to run on 20 percent capacity.
A) Would be economically reasonable to open a pub with such rule?
B) would you be fine to pay 50 quids (a figure which was mentioned back then) for a pint?
C) Do you think that pubs would be entertaining if everyone is sitting apart without music to understand the yelling of the conversations?
Doesn’t sound pleasant to me…
@8-Bit-Relic: yes you make sense in a generalistic way , but it shouldn’t be carte blanch approach to all, when im home like now, a particularly small ‘auld lads’ pub id like to go to would only have 4 to 5 people mid week pre covid anyways. Why not allow them open and not sell alcohol etc, maybe coffee etc, I personally dont like going to restaurants, there no coffe shops etc. Just want to get out and not look at screens nor have to go to far and drive etc. There could be many options, but they not been even given a chance, no options given to even try and see if viable etched
@Da_Dell: I don’t know if those publicans have asked if they could run the pub as a cafe instead. The cafes are using 2m at the .moment but at least outdoor areas could be used more effectively this way.
@8-Bit-Relic: Thats kinda my point, they have not been given any options to adhere too.
I heard some say, give us guidance to follow, and then for those that do open and are found to not follow the guidelines to lose their license forever. That would solve it imho. Seems to me that all this back and forth commentary between the keep them shut brigade and the open them brigade suits the powers to be in deflecting from a lot of inconsistencies in the govs handling of this pandemic.
“If you Google ‘Covid… Pubs’ you’ll see this and what could easily happen”.
there, is the one comment from out medical advisors that shows they are being guided fby all and sundry,
anyone who swallows this nonsense needs to look in the mirror
Houston, we have a problem
yeah, one sec and I’ll google it
@Kavsie: slow boil of the frog
When will they start hopping out? It’s up to the people now to take the country back.
Josephina
Thats not evidence!
Rise up!
Publican are dealers of a controlled substance ~ Why are they behaving so badly or are they really as greedy as drug dealers ??
@JP Pilibin: Prob no more greedy than Goodmans group
There are pubs in Dublin that are not conforming in any way to the regulations on food or the amount of time a customer can spend in the pub ~~ Close them all again until they learn how to behave especially the ones on the Northside !
@JP Pilibin: would you ever cop on to your self, some very serious scientific evidence on those two pages alright. Now go read the article on the 80 confirmed cases here in Ireland in a meat processing plant. By your logic they will need to be nuked. Id love to see the ‘evidence’ to support reasons they were allowed to be open and remain open after multiple incidents. That evidence prob the size of a postage stamp on a brown envelope.
Bloody scam
All part of the agenda
Slow boil of the frog
When will you hop?
It’s not even a pandemic now
It’s a #casedemic
They don’t even call it covid19 any more; they call it “coronavirus”. Which is any cold.
When will you say “ENOUGH IS ENOUGH”?
https://twitter.com/newscomauHQ/status/1291267767522533379?s=20
Will some one stick 2 fingers up the vintners rectoms
I laugh at all these people complaining about the pubs being open that have so many examples of when they were breaking the rules. If you don’t agree with the pubs being open then why do you go to so many of them. I haven’t been to a pub since before the lockdown but I have no problem with pub owners opening up to trying to make a living. We need to take responsibility for our own actions and stop blaming business owners for the behaviour of their customers.
Young officer in a relation ship with a drug dealer and we can’t comment
Some of the pub/restaurants that are open are not adhering to social distancing at all . Drinkers packed in like sardines in the one beside me for the last few Saturdays. Amazingly there was only 2 cars in the car park on Sunday morning.
Drink water there’s plenty from the sky,as it never stops raining
I just drove 2000km around the coast of Ireland. found that most pubs were packed especially the ones in tourist spots. The only rule these pubs were obeying was the €9 rule. 1 publican told me I had to order €9 food because they were strict with the Covid rules. I looked around and said you’re not to strict with the distance rule but you’re strict with the money one. Noticed a lot of menus with a lot of options for food for €8.90 as well. In 90% of these pubs/hotels I was in the last 10 days it made absolutely no difference to my chances of contracting C19 that I was sitting there with a €9 toasted special!! And another thing….foreign tourists are NOT self isolating when they arrive. I came across all nationalities, most without Facemasks! So open all pubs but enforce the distance rule.
have your say