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IN PART ONE of our Speak or Survive investigation, we spoke to survivors of sexual abuse about their experience of coming forward and what changes they want to see, as well as talking to agencies including Tusla, the HSE and groups who provide therapy and advocacy for victims of sexual crimes.
Today, we explore how those who suffered the most traumatic and sustained abuse – particularly childhood sexual abuse – have had poor mental health outcomes in a system that is not structured to adequately support them.
Noteworthy has identified that:
Despite international evidence showing that survivors of childhood sexual abuse can suffer severe trauma and lifelong fallout, many adults in need of psychological supports are not getting appropriate supports in psychiatric institutions.
Some survivors of childhood sexual abuse say that they feel the response to their trauma has been to place them in mental health facilities, sometimes involuntarily in accordance with the 2001 Mental Health Act.
Children who are sexually abused face waiting lists of over a year for therapeutic support.
Tusla is not categorising how many allegations of sexual abuse are deemed “unfounded” and there is widespread concern among advocacy groups that some children may be being returned to abusive situations in which they are not eligible for therapeutic supports.
In 2018, a report commissioned by the National Women’s Council highlighted that 25% of women had experienced a form of physical and sexual violence since turning 15.
In 2013, a sample study of male and female Irish psychiatric inpatients found that 29% reported being raped before entering the institution while an overlapping 26% reported other types of sexual abuse or humiliation, also outside the institution. Part 5 of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse’s report extensively detailed a link between childhood sexual abuse and later mental health problems.
This supports international evidence suggesting that around half of all female mental hospital patients had been sexually abused as children or adolescents, but that hospital staff were usually unaware of this and that only 20% believed they had been adequately treated for sexual abuse. Irish studies have found a link between childhood sexual abuse and adult depression.
Since its establishment in 2000, the National Counselling Service has seen over 40,000 referrals to its service which provides free counselling and psychotherapy to adults who had experienced abuse in childhood.
“While a majority of clients (at the NCS) report sexual abuse as the reason for seeking counselling, this form of abuse rarely occurs in isolation,” said a spokesperson for the HSE. Citing extensive academic research, the spokesperson acknowledged a strong link between childhood sexual abuse and adverse mental health in later life, with victims vulnerable to post-traumatic stress disorder and suicidal ideation.
“The majority of NCS clients present with symptoms of post-traumatic stress [and] approximately 50% experience mental health difficulties for which they attend community mental health teams,” the HSE spokesperson said.
Yet it is precisely because survivors of abuse often present in a psychologically-vulnerable state that many of Noteworthy’s interviewees felt they had been “written off” by those from whom they sought help.
Involuntary admission to psychiatric units
Alice*, who was sexually abused by her father and again when in foster care, has spent 22 years seeking to have the abuse addressed and acknowledged by the HSE, An Garda Siochana and Tusla. We relayed Alice’s fight for justice in part one of this investigation yesterday here.
Alice believes that part of the health system’s response to her claims and the fallout from the trauma she endured has been to medicate and institutionalise her on various occasions, sometimes involuntarily and for a period of months, rather than provide her with appropriate therapeutic support.
“In the late 1990s, [the local health board] were investigating the abuses in the foster home, and I was working with them but they weren’t helping me,” said Alice. “I was self-sabotaging and drinking. On a night out with my friends, I left them to throw myself into the canal but instead I decided to go to the Garda station and report the abuse. I was crying and distraught and told them I was suicidal. I was told I’d be done for public order if I didn’t stop.”
Alice said there was no follow-up from the Garda following her visit to the station that night; an internal report into Alice’s case, published by Tusla this year, supports this claim.
Antipsychotic drugs
Alice’s medical records show that during one involuntary psychiatric admission she tried to “abscond” and was “put into seclusion”. “They dragged me back and put me into a seclusion room that was like a cell. I clawed at the door begging them to listen to what I was saying.”
She was put on risperidone, an antipsychotic drug. “When I screamed out, they’d say it was a feature of my mental illness. They didn’t seem to have experience of people suffering from trauma. I was told that it was for my safety but it felt like punishment.
“How can you prove that you are not insane – just traumatised? You succumb to them and start to think: maybe they’re right, maybe it’s me that’s the problem.”
As documented in part one of this series, Tusla has publicly apologised for admitted failings in her case dating back to at least as far 1987. All of this compounded the experience of being sexually abused as a child, Alice said.
“Of course it is hard to cope sometimes. How could anyone?”
Last December, the Director of Public Prosecutions informed Alice that her father and the abuser from the foster home would not be prosecuted due to insufficient evidence. “I was wailing. I felt like my insides were being ripped out. Nobody made any follow-up call to check if I was alright. I went into a state of trauma. My GP prescribed some Xanax.”
Alice’s GP recommended that she be admitted to hospital for bedrest. He gave her a referral letter explaining her documented history of child sexual abuse and she willingly presented herself to the hospital. An admitting doctor carried out an assessment during which, she said, he quizzed her on her relationship with her parents.
“He asked me if I was suicidal and, when I said I was not, he told me I would not be admitted because I was not a danger to myself. Then I was given a prescription for Clonazepam, a drug I hadn’t ever taken before. I said I wanted support, not drugs. He said this is not the place for me.”
Lack of confidence in the HSE
Mick Finnegan, whose claims that he was abused as a boy by a senior volunteer in the St John’s Ambulance were investigated and described as “founded” by Tusla in July this year, said he was severely traumatised both by the abuse and how it was allowed to happen. His alleged abuser denies all allegations, and has said he will challenge the Tusla finding.
Mick went to England when he was 18 and, for many years, lived on the streets.
“I got help with the NHS,” he said. “Without them, I think I’d be dead: the mental health services for victims of sexual crimes in Ireland are outsourced to underfunded charities.”
Mick’s lack of confidence in Ireland’s ability to correctly care for victims of sexual crime is echoed by Dr Stuart Neilson, who spoke to Noteworthy about his experience of being treated in a mental health setting in Ireland.
In 2018, there were 2,390 involuntary admissions to mental hospitals and other approved settings, according to the Mental Health Commission. Figures from the Health Research Board suggest that men may make up approximately 67% of involuntary admissions.
Stuart suffered sexual abuse while at boarding school in England as a child in the 1970s. He moved to Ireland from England in 1998 and has experience of being involuntarily admitted to a mental hospital in this country.
The abuse Stuart endured at school, combined with his Asperger’s Syndrome, made Stuart vulnerable. He spoke out publicly when the scale of child sexual abuse by children’s TV presenter Jimmy Savile – who had visited his school in the 1970s but was not Stuart’s abuser – began to emerge.
In 2015, Stuart received a letter from the chairman of the school’s governors which said: “I understand that your own time at the school was not happy – or at least that there were unhappy incidents in it.”
The sexual crimes – and the fallout from them – took a heavy toll on Stuart. “I’m 56 years old, married to a supportive wife and have great kids, but I still won’t get in a car, meeting or lift with one man. I’ve been an inpatient in psychiatric units five times. One of these was an involuntary admission after a suicide attempt and, on another occasion, I was told I would be sectioned if I did not stay voluntarily.
“These mental hospitals are full of people who have been sexually assaulted. It’s so common: between one in four and one in five people have had similar experiences [of sexual crimes].” Stuart said that there were no programmes specifically equipped to deal with sexual assault.
Most of the therapy was group sessions and Stuart felt that it was never the right environment for him to explain what had really brought him there. “I was being treated for social anxiety without them having any understanding of what I was anxious about.”
Stuart’s medical records for the years 2012-17 in Ireland, obtained through a subject access request and seen by Noteworthy, indicate that he was prescribed chlorpromazine, a conventional antipsychotic which treats psychosis (where a patient struggles to distinguish between what is real and what is not), schizophrenia, mania and bipolar disorder, as well as pregabalin, which is used in the treatment of epilepsy and anxiety.
“No intervention, other than drugs, has ever been offered for the impact of child sexual abuse,” said Stuart. “When I was in the hospital, a doctor recommended I attend [a HSE-funded counselling service dedicated to helping survivors of sexual abuse].”
Treatment – but on whose terms?
In appointment letters, the HSE told Stuart that “it is necessary for you to attend the outpatient clinic in order to remain on waiting lists to attend other members of the community mental health team such as the social worker, psychologist etc.”
“Treatment is purely on their terms, and is all or nothing,” said Stuart. “My HSE treatment consisted of six assessments per year by trainee psychiatrists, without access to a consultant. Repeating my history from the beginning to at least two – and usually more – psychiatric trainees every year was very wearing and often extremely upsetting.”
In his medical records, a psychiatrist records that “Stuart has been contacted by Gardaí to provide a written statement re abuse he suffered…This has been very difficult and past trauma has resurfaced. Wife is supportive. Attends [a service provided by an autism charity] key worker and counsellor alternate weeks, feels it very useful.”
Stuart said: “This psychiatrist seems to have simply fitted whatever I said into their own understanding of residential child sexual abuse inquiries. It is extremely tiring to keep repeating the same history, only to see they weren’t really listening anyway. This sounds unduly negative and critical of the service. The staff were not at all equipped to help; they are devoted and caring, but hugely under-resourced. Trainee psychiatrists have no authority to provide anything other than pharmaceutical interventions.”
A HSE clinical psychologist speaks
Under condition of anonymity, we have spoken to an experienced HSE clinical psychologist who has worked with inpatients and outpatients at an Irish psychiatric hospital. We refer to this person as Dr X.
Upon Dr X’s advice, Noteworthy also asked the HSE what procedures or therapies are offered (eg CBT, psychotherapy) where the person’s trauma or psychological illness is primarily or exclusively a result of sexual crimes. They did not respond to this question.
The HSE explained, in detail, how the NCS functions. The HSE said that the waiting times to attend counselling at the NCS vary throughout the country depending on several factors including staffing levels, but that it can vary from 6 to 12 months. “For some clients the wait may be longer when they have additional specific requirements in terms of appointment time, location, counsellor etc. Covid-19 has impacted on service provision significantly.”
There is no requirement to ask about a history of sexual abuse in Irish mental hospitals.
“They are mandated in the UK, although of course there is a difficulty around that being a tick-box question and the reality that you often need to establish a trust relationship before someone will disclose,” said Dr X.
Research shows that up to 60% of victims never disclose their abuse, the HSE said, with male victims even less likely to disclose and, even then, often after some significant delay.
Dr X notes: “Anecdotally, there are huge rates of sexual abuse that are not reported to clinicians, or reported and written down as though as they’re as relevant as what car the patient drives. If someone presents with an illness, such as schizophrenia, clinical depression or obsessive compulsive disorder, we tend to treat the illness, whereas what we need is a more trauma-informed approach – but we are leagues from that. There is no specific treatment for child sexual abuse.”
The World Health Organisation has only recently included complex post-traumatic stress disorder in its list of diagnoses.
“Before this, we had a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder, but someone with a history of ongoing traumatic stress disorder does not typically present as a typical case of PTSD,” said Dr X.
“PTSD is more applicable to a single event of major trauma rather than the clinical issues you see in someone subjected to sustained sexual childhood abuse, which can have interpersonal, intrapersonal, metabolic and neurological effects on the developing brain.
“Survivors can become hypoaroused – underaroused and dissociated as a survival strategy for a child so terrified that their mind almost leaves their body, which becomes reflexive in later life – or hyperaroused, using drugs, alcohol or deliberately self harming.
“Borderline personality disorder, substance misuse disorder, schizophrenia are among the diagnoses given.”
Abigail’s story
Another abuse survivor with whom Noteworthy has had extended contact is Abigail*. When Noteworthy first spoke to Abigail*, she had just been released from an involuntary admission to a psychiatric unit.
Indeed, she has been in and out of psychiatric care for over 20 years.
“I’m scared to keep speaking about what happened to me because they’ll lock me up,” she said at the time.
Abigail’s story is difficult, fragmented and complex. Sometime around late 2014 or early 2015, she made a complaint to gardaí alleging that she had been sexually abused by a babysitter when she was a child.
Gardaí sent a file to the Director of Public Prosecutions on Feb 10, 2015 and that office requested further records from gardaí on May 5, 2015, according to records seen by Noteworthy. At the end of that month, she was informed that the DPP would not be proceeding with a prosecution due to insufficient evidence being available to secure a conviction that would be safe beyond reasonable doubt; this was confirmed in writing from the DPP on September 15, 2015.
Approximately a year later, she made a further statement to gardaí at a station. Over six pages, she detailed how a relative had groomed and sexually abused her over a four-year period, beginning when she was eight years old and ending when she was about 12.
Noteworthy has been able to verify that Abigail met with a garda shortly after this statement was made about the relative, during which the garda explained the process to her.
Abigail’s sister accompanied her to this meeting because the sister alleged that she had witnessed some of the childhood sexual abuse from the relative.
Speaking out – and being dismissed
What is striking about Abigail’s story is how she feels her past attempts to speak out about her abuse had led her to be dismissed as a child and young adult with mental health issues. Her troubles, she said, all stem back to her experience of childhood sexual abuse.
She claims that when she first tried – as a child – to relay the abuse as a child to her mother, she was “locked away”. The Gardaí came to take me to [a psychiatric ward]; my mother rang them to take me. I’ve been in and out of psychiatric care, I was put on medication that I subsequently became addicted to, and when I was right [well], I would fight for my custody of my daughter.
“I don’t know how many times I’ve been in psychiatric care. I was pumped with medication and put into a place that some people still never come out of. It seemed to coincide with when I spoke out about the abuse. I met women of 60 or 70 who were institutionalised. They put me away one time after I went down to request help from a local TD: I had a knock on my door and after a few hours I was back in the ward. The hospital said I had a personality disorder.”
Noteworthy has seen medical documents relating to Abigail’s medications and history of narcotic use.
“I drank heavily and took drugs for years to block out the sexual abuse of my childhood,” she said. “I left school early and went to England when I was 18 to get away. I came back a year later and was put into an alcohol treatment centre. I was messed up over everything, but what I needed was for the abuse to be addressed.
“I was on ecstasy, speed and hash and I’d go out all night and leave my daughter with my cousin or my parents as babysitters. I only did it on weekends, but I was trying to block out the abuse. I was young, naive and vulnerable. My daughter was two and a half when they took her from me and gave her to my parents while I was in treatment.”
A relative paid for private treatment in a rehab centre. “I told them about the sexual abuse but they said they only deal with drugs and alcohol,” Abigail claims. “I told them all but nobody seemed to want to address why I was traumatised.”
On March 27, 2001, when Abigail was receiving counselling as an outpatient, her therapist recorded: “Abigail very tearful and angry. Angry at parents for taking [her daughter] into foster care. Denys [sic] using any drugs or taking alcohol. When I asked about what precipitated this admission, became very angry [and] stated that no one would believe her, the mental health service would only listen to her parents.”
When speaking to Abigail, it is clear that she is wary of state agencies including the HSE and the criminal justice system. We have included her story here precisely because it is complex and because, despite having gathered hundreds of pages of documents and presented Noteworthy with approximately two dozen recordings, she has sometimes struggled to present all the different threads coherently.
Presenting as anything less that coherent
Of approximately 30 survivors we have spoken to – including many women who have gone on to campaign against sexual violence and spoke only on background – at least a dozen say that presenting as anything less than coherent and with carefully structured evidence can lead to a survivor being dismissed.
This, in turn, may exacerbate trauma, according to a HSE clinical psychologist who spoke to us on condition of anonymity.
“I needed support,” Abigail said. “I needed to be believed. I wouldn’t have gone through nearly 40 years of this for nothing. I’ve never been given therapeutic support that addresses what actually happened to me and, at this stage, I don’t even know if I’d accept it. I’ve no faith in the mental health system. I feel I’ve been in a lone battle.”
One big change that would make a huge difference is an advocate, she said. “I wish that, when I’d gone to the Gardaí and made my report, there’d been someone there to support me throughout, keep me informed on what was going and make sure I had support.
“I understand that there has to be due process and I don’t want that overturned – it is right that the defendant gets a fair trial, but they’re supposed to get that fair trial because they are one person against the might of the State. Instead, it feels like the State is against the victims.”
In medical records for both Abigail and Alice, doctors have suggested that they may have a personality disorder but they have not received a formal diagnosis.
“Many with that diagnosis – mostly female – do have histories of significant abuse, and the diagnosis is often made, but problems arise from there: huge gaps in availability of evidence-based interventions and over-reliance on medication to treat symptoms, lack of trauma-informed care and fundamental misunderstanding of the aetiology of difficulties with which this patient group present,” said Dr X.
“In standard care, the frontline treatment for most diagnoses and most patients is medication and dealing with the symptoms rather than causes, and it is tricky because if you have someone who presents as floridly psychotic and is talking of abuse, it can be hard to know what is real and what is not.”
Alice said that, in her case, simple consultation between social workers and clinicians would have prevented her from being disbelieved about her abuse.
Medicating trauma
Cliona Sadlier, executive director of the Rape Crisis Network of Ireland, said that “complex PTSD oftentimes mistaken for mental illness and they are assigned lifelong diagnoses and medicated. There is work that needs to be done. We experience this a lot … When we used to medicate and institutionalise mental illness, we had people come to us to get off the prescribed drugs and get out of the mental health system. Trauma is a rational response to what someone has done to you but the system looks at this and medicates.”
When someone is referred as an inpatient or outpatient, Dr X said, a clinical history is taken in a short period of time, sometimes an hour and sometimes three, depending on the pressure services are under.
“I often hear team meetings in which it is said that the patient had ‘no adverse childhood experiences and I think ‘they didn’t report them but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen’, because in my clinical experience it can take years for people to acknowledge, even to themselves.
“A lot of survivors will never come into contact with the mental health services at all, and there can be a huge difference between someone who experienced a single event or a smaller number of events outside the family and who has a supportive and loving family and someone who suffers sustained childhood sexual abuse within the family.”
In three years of training towards their clinical PhD, Dr X said, they had about one day to explore this area. Noteworthy asked the HSE what specialised training is given to HSE psychiatrists and clinical psychologists to support patients who make a disclosure, what are the training competencies and who sets them. They did not respond to the question.
Dr X said: “There is a growing momentum behind the acknowledgement of the impact of adverse childhood experiences but services are still not designed to respond to it. The HSE said that “approximately 50% of NCS clients experience mental health difficulties for which they attend community mental health teams, with suicidal ideation and suicide risk the most common presenting difficulty amongst NCS clients. The NCS works jointly with mental health services to support clients and coordinate provision of care.”
“For a survivor of sexual abuse to be placed on a ward in a mental health facility can be terrifying and potentially retraumatising especially if they’re in a mixed gender facility with people displaying erratic, unpredictable or potentially aggressive behaviour,” said Dr X.
“It feels like there is an intellectual acknowledgement on the part of many in this profession that sexual abuse is the big issue for many of the patients we see, but sometimes they are not joining the dots between that and the patient’s current presentation.”
In 2019, a one-night census of Irish psychiatric units and hospitals found that “one-third of all in-patients on census night had a primary admissions diagnosis of schizophrenia, 16% had a diagnosis of depressive disorders, 10% had a diagnosis of organic mental disorders and almost 8% had a diagnosis of mania.”
It is unclear if the census questionnaire specifically raised the issue of a PTSD approach, but there was no reference in the resulting report to PTSD or trauma-informed approaches.
Are child abuse victims still being failed? The expert view
In Australia, the Blue Knot Foundation is widely regarded as providing a high – if not gold – standard of care for adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse. “They provide excellent guidelines for GPs, mental health teams and the public, from one-page infographics to more detailed treatment guidelines,” said Dr X. “But they’re well-funded; we have nothing like that here.”
Because severely traumatised or addicted patients cannot get the benefit of standard therapies provided by rape crisis centres, some people in institutional settings, who were sexually abused as children, are effectively not being treated for the root of their trauma.
But the problems extend beyond adult survivors to children who are raped and sexually abused today.
https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/3710250/
Before Covid-19, Children at Risk Ireland (CARI), a charity which provides therapeutic supports to victims of sexual abuse up to the age of 18 and supports children showing sexually harmful behaviour before the age of 12, had a waiting list of 85 children. By April, that had grown to 114 children. As of July 31, 2020, there were 165 children on the waiting list. Waiting times are at least a year.
“This means that there is a real risk of placement breakdown,” said Eve Farrelly, executive director of Cari, which relies on donations and some Government funding. “Children thrown off their normal developmental trajectory face a lifetime of struggle and fighting demons. We are still storing up problems for the future and repeating the same patterns.”
Cari only sees children who are not at continued risk of sexual abuse. Some referrals are self-referrals, others come from Tusla.
In 2018, One in Four was forced to close its waiting list to adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse due to a lack of resources.
“Our waiting lists are now long, but they are not closed,” said Deirdre Kenny, director of advocacy at One in Four. “We have seen them increase during the pandemic as people have had time to reflect, and our services are being provided online with a slow shift back to face-to-face. But investment is sorely needed, and society as a whole needs to properly recognise the extent to which people can be impacted by sexual violence.”
Of course you have to allow that some cases are correctly handled, said Sadlier. “But when something like sexual crime is too uncomfortable for us, we sometimes turn on the witness – and institutions do that to protect themselves against their own failures. If the system fails it must explain itself, so perhaps it is easier to turn on the witness and say they are mad and bad.”
*Names have been changed. Note: Tusla was established in 2014 and took over HSE social care files, which in turn the HSE had taken responsibility for when it took on the duties of regional health boards in 2005. For legal purposes, however, Tusla is responsible for historic allegations and so, where child abuse allegations take place prior to 2014, we nonetheless refer to Tusla.
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This investigation was carried out by Peter McGuire for Noteworthy and edited by Susan Daly. It was proposed and funded by you, our readers. Noteworthy is the investigative journalism platform from TheJournal.ie. You can support our work by helping to fund one of our other investigation proposals or submitting an idea for a story. Click here to find out more >>
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While this article will get some serious trolling, I think this is a great idea. However, all road users, including cyclists, need to be responsible for heir own actions. I see too many cyclists wearing headphones while in transit, which is equally dangerous. But nothing being done about that…
@Dave Spier: Agreed 100%. I see all road users carrying out some really silly actions on the road, cyclists, pedestrians as well as drivers.
@Dave Spier: and the same for motorists listening to radios? They may have a metal cage around them but there are too many distractions inside vehicles.
@Scundered: in ear headphones isolate external sounds considerably. Radios (at a sensible volume) do not. Traffic noise is not audible to a headphone user
@Scundered: the difference between cyclists wearing headphones and drivers listening to radio is that the headphones block out most of the noise making it practically impossible for a cyclists to hear something around them
@sue: that is absolute nonsense. In ear headphones generally do not isolate noise from external sources when listened to at a level that will not cause hearing damage. I’ve a small experiment for you, try cycling with a pair of headphones in and unless they are now cancelling you will hear every car, truck or bus that is near.
@Gulliver Foyle: most will, even at a sensible volume. Like these: Sennheiser CX 300 II Precision Noise Isolating Ear-canal Phones, Black https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B001EZYMRM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_mGKozbFXA1R8X
@Gulliver Foyle: I walk with headphones and I know they do cancel out a lot. I use sensible volume and have to always double check when crossing the street as I cannot hear the cars
@sue: when you listen to music in the car your windows are all down I take it? Because otherwise you’re in a sealed room. You are no better than the cyclist but safer since you’re inside a cage.
“Cities get the cyclists they deserve. If you have good infrastructure, you will get good cyclists”
@Scundered: yes, I have the window open regardless of whether I listen to the radio. Also cars have mirrors to check the traffic behind, cyclists don’t
@Dave Spier: I think it is a good idea too, don’t worry that motorists are contributing to the economy albeit under duress but banning cars etc from areas where bikes only are allowed; this is bound to highlight the idiots who cycle and have no respect for other people. Without cars around they will have nobody to blame they broke the lights etc. Any consideration being given to reduce road tax in areas you cannot bring?
@sue: yes, was just about to point out myself that in a car, you have three mirrors to allow you to see what’s behind you or coming up either side of you. A cyclist doesn’t have this and instead has to rely on sound a lot more.
I cycle 150 km+ a week through the heart of the city wearing headphones. I can hear traffic around me. 100% of near misses I have with motorists come not from being able to hear, but from drivers not paying attention. I have near misses daily, always caused by bad driving. I’ve been hit by cars, had cars cut me off, had buses driving deliberatelty close to my back wheel because they were annoyed I wouldn’t let them past, had taxis punishment pass me, and on and on and on. This argument about headphones is a nonsense, drivers need to cop on. Ask yourselves, how many times in your car have you felt like you were in mortal danger because someone was cycling with headphones on? I’ve been so close to being knocked down so many times its frightening, I’d be dead if I cycled the way drivers drive, not paying attention, going too fast, speeding through orange and red lights, texting as they drive. There is no equivalence between a motorist and any other road user, because cars kill. Virtually no one dies from any other method of using a road, deaths are caused by vehicles with an engine. It’s not right to feel like you could be dead before you get to work because of the attitudes of people who require a license for the privilege of driving a car that clogs our city and pollutes our air. Much harsher restrictions need to be put in place for cars, and much harsher punishments.
@John Smith: do you have an organ donor card?
@Gulliver Foyle: That only works if you don’t have any music turned on. Most kids don’t hear any thing you ask them to do when their earphones are in.
@Ian Moloney:
They hear you, they just don’t want to answer you.
Not sure how useful my organs would be if/when they peel me from underneath a bus. If you have an issue with a bus driver deliberately trying to push you off the road take down their reg number, bus number and record the time, then lodge a formal complaint. They track down the driver. The more times this happens the more drivers will face their employers for their reckless actions.
@John Smith: You just keep wearing your earphones and pointing fingers at drivers. That’ll solve this problem once and for all. Facepalm.
@Fin Tastic:
Nah mate, removing cars from drivers will solve the problem once and for all. Kids aren’t allowed to drive cars, but morons are. Facepalm.
@Fin Tastic:
And Heisenberg as your avatar, bet that makes you feel cool, so original.
@John Smith: Good luck with those earphones – Darwin awards await you.
I can talk to the others while radio play in the car but hardly having music on my earphones.
@Fin Tastic:
Wow. That comeback is worthy of being immoratlised in stone. Next to “yer Ma” and “I know you are but what am I?”
@Dave Spier: Do you listen to the radio while driving?
@Patrick O’Brien: as pointed out above, three separate mirrors in a car allow a motorist to see what’s behind them.
All a cyclist has is their sense of hearing.
Removing the one thing that a cyclist can use to make them aware of this (headphones) is dangerous.
@Scundered: I use headphones along the off road bike lanes only. Always turn it off or take them out altogether when on the road. Even having them in alone with nothing playing has an impact on your hearing.
@Dave Spier: I’m a pedestrian and many times I went to cross the road when the green light is on and cyclist fly by me many times I’ve nearly been knocked down
@Jho Harris: There’s no such thing as road tax. There’s motor tax, which is a tax on the motor/engine of the vehicle. Roads are paid for out of general taxation, so everyone contributes – pedestrians, cyclists and motorists.
I cycle in Dublin every day. I’ve never had an issue with traffic or pedestrians. Perfectly safe once you use cop on and common sense. The only ones I have a problem with are fellow cyclists who continuous break the rules because the rules are not for them. Irish culture is unfortunately the issue – people don’t care when it comes to “it’s only little old me”. However, those poor people who lost their lives and
*were injured – i cannot obviously say what happened nor would i try to. I am just speaking from my own experience.
@theupsidedown: The “rules” arent fit for purpose. They were formulated with cars in mind. Cars and bicycles are very different and therefore it is idiotic and even unsafe to expect the same rules to apply to both.
I also cycle every day in Dublin and Id say a car pulls out in front of me or cuts me off at a left turn literally every day.
@GunsGerms: the rules should be applied to all regardless of mode of transport but they are not and that’s the problem. I see cars cutting off cyclists but then I also see the same cyclists squeeze past cars in traffic jams and ignore cars indicate going left. I also see plenty of pedestrian and cyclists breaking the lights every day. Apply the rules of the road across the board and treat each other with respect rather than it’s my right to be here, and roads might be safer
@sue: No they shouldnt. Are you saying it should be ok for me to cycle on a motorway because cars are allowed to?
There needs to be most more sensible rules applied to both encourage and promote cycling given that the benefits of having greater volume of cyclists on the streets far out weigh the benefits of having more cars.
@GunsGerms: thanks youve proven my point. Best of luck in wonderland.
@theupsidedown: You’re welcome. Your point wasnt very well thought so happy to oblige. Not much critical thinking evident.
@GunsGerms: I forgot to include use common sense
@GunsGerms: cyclists are not allowed on the motorway as it’s dangerous to cyclists. As I said common sense needs to be applied in all areas of life.
@GunsGerms: well said. Best of luck in alternative reality Dublin. I suspect it’s very misty there. Dope.
@GunsGerms: You do know you have to yield to a car that’s turning left?
@TP Simms: The issue is cars over taking cyclists and then turing left cleaning them out.
@TP Simms: ‘have’ to would be incorrect. If you are ahead of the car and it passes you and then turns left they are in the wrong. If you pass a car stuck in traffic that is indicating and the traffic then frees and the car then passes you and turns left they are in the wrong again. There is an issue of judging time and speed so that is why both sides must pay attention and error on the side of caution.
As a man who needs his van for work in Dublin city an beyond, it’s absolutely shocking the number of cyclists that have no regard gor themselves or other pedestrians. The amount of times per day they cut through traffic ignoring the laws of the road, racing through crossings and more often than not
@Enda Smith: I worked as a sales rep in Dublin, including the city area, for years. As time went on it got harder and harder to get around to see your customers.
Owen Keegans arrogance and personal hatred is directly to blame.
@Enda Smith: I could say exactly for most van drivers. Have you ever heard of the term “white van man”, how do you think that came to be a thing?
@Scundered: I think it came from a man driving a white van ?
@Dave Doyle: Owen Keegan personally hates you? Did you do something to him?
@Rob Cullen: Well done Rob, have a nice day at school today.
What this van driver doesn’t realise is that while some cyclists flaunt rules, the more cyclists there are means the less cars there are meaning he can get around the city faster. Coming over Capel St Bridge yesterday onto Parliament St I was taking the middle lane because I wasn’t turning down the quays. There is no space to pass me so drivers have to stay behind. A van driver speeds up behind and beeps his horn, speeds into the right lane and then back into the middle lane right in front of me. When I cycled up to the red light in front of Dublin Castle I was stopped right beside him waiting for the green, his little manoeuvre got him to the same position as it would have if he had the courtesy to drive properly in traffic behind me. He did roll down his window and apologise for his shoddy driving though, so kudos to that.
@Camroc: Given the chance, i would.
TBH the sooner bikes must have number plates and the cyclist has to have a permit allowing them to cycle the bike, the sooner cyclists will be nearer to being accountable and traceable to answer for their actions. As a cyclist I would have no problem with this.
@theupsidedown: am sure your kids will love all that red tape and monitoring.
@Scundered: if it makes people behave themselves and cop on – yes – a reasonable person wouldnt have a problem. Unfortunately, many (yourself included obviously) believe they are beyond any rule, regulation or law. We’ll take registration plates off of cards so and abolish the obligation to hold a drivers license. Let me know how it works out when you get ploughed out of it on you trike heading off to school and someone is trying to track the driver down when theyve left you for dead.
@theupsidedown: Idiotic analogy. None of your post makes any sense.
@theupsidedown: How many people this year have you heard of that were killed by a bicycle hitting them?
Now how many have you heard of that were killed by cars?
Now you understand.
@Ger Healy: it’s quite simple – even for you – I’m simply making the point that a cyclist is not accountable for their actions because there is no way of tracing him/her when he/she carries on like the way he/she does. That includes verbally abusing and threatening motorists, pedestrians and other cyclists. Therefore the vast majority of cyclists don’t care because there are no consequences. I can’t dumb it down any more for you. You’ll have to come up to everybody else’s level of understanding.
@theupsidedown: having a licence plate does not make you accountable. I have walked into a a Garda I station with video footage of dangerous driving with number plates and they won’t do anything. I see cars break lights daily and nothing happens. I can walk out my front door and tape over 50 cars all breaking parking and road signs within 20 minutes and none will be charged.
If there were plates on bicycles motorists would be sitting in their cars and just report every cyclist plate they see. The amount of visible aggression towards cyclists on the road is staggering. People stuck in traffic regularly pull in against the curb to block cyclists intentionally. Some will do it as you approach. Cars punishment passing happens so regularly it doesn’t surprise me in the slightest.
@theupsidedown: If only a few swear words and ranty threats was the worst that a motor vehicle could inflict on a cyclist! That would have meant Zero cyclist deaths on the road this year and not the 10 and counting who are now 6ft under…Cop onto yourself!
@Geraoid O’Helidhe: English 101. I am a cyclist. Please read everyones posts and then you could channel your energy into something worth while.
@Dub_Right: still doesn’t make it right though.
@Kal Ipers: it does make you accountable if people like yourself make the effort to do something about it. Be brave and come out from behind the net curtains.
@Scundered: well if motor vehicle drivers have to put up with the red tape and monotoring it should not be a bother to you….
@theupsidedown: You really are an arrogant individual. I actually really doubt you cycle. I didn’t think trolls could ride a bike.
@Ger Healy: I didn’t think clowns could type either but there you go.
If cyclists want dedicated roads to be “bike only” during certain hours, then they’ll have to pay tax… a lot of cyclists are ignorant pieces of shit that think they own the road.
@David: This old chestnut…. Lots of people are ignorant David. Lots of people are stupid. Everybody can be one of those things some of the time. Regardless of transport choice. Now what’s this about tax? I cycle you reckon I pay no tax? Cause If I’ve missed some sort of a tax credit or something for owning a bike I gotta call revenue pronto.
@David: speaking of ignorance you just demonstrated your own. You really need to inform yourself before you post on sites like this. Idiot.
@David: you appear to be ignorant to the fact that most cyclists also own a car and therefore do pay tax already.
@Scundered: most? So what about the others? And anyway, consider this. I’d say all farmers who own tractors, or tradesmen who own vans, also already own a car and therefore also already pay tax. Yet if they want to bring that other vehicle onto the road, they have to pay a second tax. No logical reason not to introduce something similar for bikes, to help cover the cost of providing and then maintaining cycle lanes.
@Jumperoo: no logical reason for someone not to pay Motor tax, on a motorless bike.. Really? That completely ignoring the fact that road maintenance and build for the most part comes from general taxation. Would you prefer the more income tax someone paid the more right they had to the road?…
@Jumperoo: you appear to be unaware of where the money comes from to pay for roads. It is from central taxation, not just motor tax. Therefore all the cyclists and pedestrians and non drivers are already paying for your precious road.
@David: You should pay a tax for ignorant comments like that!
@Jumperoo: The roads are paid for out of general taxation, same as cycle lanes are, so cyclists already pay for cycle lanes the same way as motorists pay for roads. I’m quite prepared to pay motor tax on my bike based on the same criteria used for calculating the tax on motor vehicles, which is based on emissions. My bike doesn’t produce emissions, so the payment due is nil. Yay!
By the way, do you think the relatively puny amount raised in road tax paid for the motorway system we have, which cost multiple billions? Millions are spent on ramps in housing estates because drivers refuse to drive carefully, despite the presence of children. Millions are spent on policing road traffic for the same reason, installing roundabouts, traffic lights, speed calming measures, all because drivers cannot be trusted to be responsible road users. Not to mention the massive environmental damage being done, old cars dumped in the countryside, tyres stockpiled around the country in illegal dumps. Do you think what you mistakenly call road tax covers all that? Motorists are subsided to a massive extent by the general taxpayer.
@Jumperoo: don’t forget @scundered believes there should be no accountability for the actions of cyclists. Jesus, don’t expect them to have to pay a tax as well.
@David: A lot of car drivers and pedestrians are “ignorant pieces……….” as well. But you cannot tar every one with the same brush.. Having reg plates is ridiculous and so is a test. It goes against the spirit of cycling. As for paying tax, most cyclist already pay it but leave their cars at home for their own benefit and ironically for the benefit of the begrudging motorists on here who enjoy less congestion because there are less cars on road.
People seem to forget that positive side effect.
@theupsidedown: Jesus doesn’t read the Journal.
@Jumperoo: It is a motor tax not a road tax so cyclist don’t pay. Motor tax doesn’t pay for the roads it comes from general taxation so cyclists are paying for the roads like everyone else including pedestrians.
@Scundered: neither do you obviously.
@Ger Healy: Don’t feed the troll
@Scundered: so then by your logic motor drivers should stop paying road tax as it “comes out of general tax ” anyway, and as cyclists and jaywalkers dont pay road tax that would even things up, all you fanatical cyclists seem to forget all the items you buy in the shops including your cycle gear gets to the shop by motor vehicle ? prehaps all motor vehicles should be banned from using the roads so you can have a clear path ? but hang on what about bread, milk, and all the other items that cannot be delivered by bycicle ? perhaps we could go back to horse drawn vehicles….
@Peter donnelly: You pay motor tax, how often does this have to be pointed out to you, until you finally understand it, the tx you pay as a motorist, is based on the engine size of your car, and the poisonous gasses motorized vehicles inflict onto the environemnt, why do you think ar electric cars tax exempt?
I used cycle city streets, no more. It’s beyond dangerous at this point.
@Eugene Walsh: there is a dedicated cycle lane along the Grand canal, completely segregated from the road, etc. Cyclists even have their own lights……perfect facility and very much in line with what is in many European cities.
Yet I never see 1 cyclist wait for their green CYCLING light, and all just plough through when the pedestrian light is green and basically force pedestrians to avoid them.
Last night driving home at 11pm, seen 2 cyclists and neither had any lights, yellow vest and were dressed in black. Lights cost about a fiver.
Until the mentality of cyclists changes, cyclists won’t get much sympathy. But hey, it is down the the Gardai to enforce.
@John S: Yes, it’s a pretty nice bike ride if all you want to do is ride up and down 5 junctions by the grand canal.
It does actually make sense to have pedestrians and bikes cross at the same time (going in one direction), but it would be helpful to have markings for pedestrians to stay out of the cycle path on the road, and bikes to stay out of the pedestrian path going across the bikelane.
Too many psycho drivers out there. Completely ignorant to other road users. The volume of car is too much for our narrow city streets. Access to the city centres should prioritise pedestrians and cyclists. Who wants to walk around breathing in car exhaust.
@prop joe: car drivers breathe in more fumes sitting in traffic jams so at least there is some justice.
@Scundered: and you breathe a load of methane with you head up your own arse so there’s a measure of justice there too
@Darren Tully: Maybe next time you’ll show the mental capacity to engage in the debate instead of attacking the poster, but I somehow doubt it.
Have a nice day playing with your sword.
It’s a bit like the dining philosophers problem. The more people get on bikes, the fewer will be in cars, the safer it gets.
@Mick Tobin: for cyclists only mick. Not for pedestrians unfortunately. Point taken though.
@theupsidedown: The outcome of a collision with a cyclist will be a lot more favourable for a pedestrian than if they are struck by a car, so there is in fact an increase in safety for pedestrians also in getting more people on bikes. That is not to say I condone misconduct by cyclists, as I commute in Dublin city by bike myself, and frankly some of the morons on bikes are the most infuriating ones I see, but there are equally bad pedestrians and drivers.
@Paddy Walsh: It depends on how fast the cyclist going and if you fall/how you land. I got a broken wrist from being hit by a cyclist at college green 10 years ago. I had the green man at the pedestrian lights and a cyclist came up the inside of a bus that was stopped at speed and hit me hard enough to knock me over. He told me that I should watch where I am going and cycled off.
@Darren Tully: if it was a car you would be dead.
@Kal Iperers: And that makes it okay how? And no I wouldn’t be dead because if it was a car that came up the inside of the bus I wouldn’t have crossed the road in the first place because I would have heard screams and seen people running from the car driving on the foot path.
But yeah I’ll count my blessings that it was just a cyclist who broke the law by not stopping at a red light, and then proceeded to flee the accident leave me to pay the hospital bill.
@Darren Tully: The point is it is safer. At no point did I say it was OK. I see everybody breaking the law. On that occasion it was a cyclist. I drive, cycle and walk. If you cycle you will have pedestrians walk out in front of you all the time and against lights. The latest thing that baffles me is pedestrians standing with their feet over the curb. Walking in cycle lanes makes the unusable. Their are some people who ignore the rules it doesn’t mean the group as a whole are the same nor responsible. Punish and police everyone. Just because one cyclist broke your wrist means that guy is responsible and seems to be leading you to some irrational hatred of all cyclists. I have never once gone through a light with pedestrians crossing at the same time. I have gone through lights the same as every other road user has.
Some rules of the road for Cyclists, passing out a fellow cyclist, turn your head to see what is behind you, when safe to do so extend your arm to let the road user behind you know you are over taking. Undertaking is illegal, if a car is turning left and you are in a cycle lane, slow down or use a hand signal and overtake the car, red lights apply to all road users, cycle lanes (even the crappy ones) are there for a reason use them, cycling 2 or 3 abreast is the 11th deadly sin (The Pope added it yesterday) and will result in your soul burning in hell for eternity! Brought to you by someone who grew up in Germany where we learned the rules of the road in school and had to pass a test (a road was painted on the school yard) and received a bicycle licence. Police also enforced the rules!
@Noel McGivern: you forgot the carry on cycling onto a roundabout. That’s another classic.
@Noel McGivern: “Undertaking is illegal” – assuming you are using the common misonomer for passing on the left, it is not illegal in the general case, please read the Road Traffic Act if you doubt this (and this supersedes the ROTR, which are an interpretation of the legislation, so please don’t just try to quote something from that book). It is only illegal if the vehicle is indicating left, and there is a reasonable expectation of the vehicle actually turning before the cyclist gets past.
As for “cycle lanes (even the crappy ones) are there for a reason use them”, please read Statutory Instrument 332/2012 where mandatory use of cycle lanes was repealed, and specifically the explanatory note where this is explicitly stated. This was done because some cycle lanes that cyclists were obliged to use were downright dangerous, so stop spewing rubbish, please.
Frankly what is legal or illegal in Germany is not necessarily the same as what is legal here (rightly or wrongly), so please be aware of the IRISH road traffic laws if you are going to use roads in Ireland.
@Noel McGivern: Yep, I admire the cycle lanes in Germany, shame our crowd can never think ahead. Came across it only yesterday evening, 2 cyclists, no Hi-Vis jackets, 2 abreast around a bad bend on a main road (100km speed zone) with ZERO margin on this particular road. Complete and utter stupidity.
@Noel McGivern: if a car is turning left across a cycle lane, the car should yield to the cyclist not force the cyclist to have yo go around him
@Kate: Just because the speed limit is 100 km/h, doesn’t mean you have to go 100 km/h, you should always drive according to the condition of the road, and be prepared to stop, the two cyclists could have been a slow moving vehicle like a tractor too, do you expect all tractors to be painted hi-viz, and to jump out of the way of ignorant drivers like you?
@Noel McGivern: Noel cycling 2 to 3 abreast is in some cases the safer option because it allows motorists overtake cyclists over a shorter distance. There is logic behind it.
@Noel McGivern: you obviously weren’t paying attention at your German cycling classes so – bike lane usage is not mandatory.
@Larissa Caroline Nikolaus: I wasn’t doing 100, never do on that road but go ahead and jump to conclusions…. My point is, they have a responsibility and should cycle safely where they can too. Nope I don’t expect a tractor to wear a hi-vis, a tractor would have their lights on at that time of the evening dear. Do read fully before you reply.
Whilst proper segregation is needed in high density areas like central Dublin most of our towns and suburbs could simply use pavements as shared space. The bicycle needs to be classed as pedestrian transport rather than vehicular transport and rules adjusted to reflect their pedestrian behaviour because even the most shallow minded can see that they are vulnerable and don’t mix well with traffic.
Took up cycling, nearly got killed, gave up cycling.
I don’t get on a bike because I’m to lazy.
Why cant cyclists just use the path like a normal person? A car needs licence, tax, nct, insurance, laws, rules and probably more things yet cyclists can do what they want on a road? They have nearly caused me to crash many times!
@JustBeingHonest: you’re driving half a ton of metal at speed and the momentum to kill easily. It also pollutes the air, damages the roads and paths via its weight. That’s why you pay.
@JustBeingHonest: Are you being deliberately ignorant or just like spouting old rubbish?
@Scundered: all the more reason for cyclists to cop themselves on and minimise the risk by abiding by the rules. Unfortunately cyclists generally don’t and so accountability is needed to force them to take responsibility for their actions. But of course you believe there shouldn’t be any accountability. Nice.
@Scundered: well who is going to fund these cycle lanes? The happy sweaty cycle club or me, the car driving road paying tax guy? And like another guy said, in germany cyclists need to earn a cycle licence, theres many out there that dont know the rules or dont care because its not enforced for them to know like get off my road sweaty gooch
@JustBeingHonest: Maybe it’s time for a refresher course and a retest if an incident like that nearly caused you to crash because you were obviously not driving with due care and attention.
@Ger Healy: nothing wrong with my driving in those instances, ive had a cyclist fly through a red light and into my path because you know he was above the law of the roads
@JustBeinghonest: Passing a simple driving test only Once in your life DOES NOT make a driver a good motorist…
@Dub_Right: i never said that it does, in fact i completely agree with you. You must be a member of the sweaty gooch club?
@JustBeingHonest: You’re either a really bad troll or have an IQ equal to your shoe size…
@theupsidedown: You do realise that this line about “no accountability” I’m supposed to support has been invented in your own imagination? Sorry to have to point that out to you, so now stop making a fool of yourself on the internet. Everyone can see what was said and they are not thick.
@Scundered: I’d doubt if could support your own body weight judging by your comments. Or maybe thats a conscious choice.
@theupsidedown: Try that again but in English next time.
@JustBeingHonest: Are you saying cyclists don’t pay taxes? Wow, never knew that, will have to address this issue with revenue, as I think, they’ll owe me a smal fortune in this case, what with all the taxes that I’ve paid so far, also, the bike license being compulsory in Germany is utter rubbish, the bicycle “license” is issued by schools, or the police as a kind of certificate for children , that they know the rules of the road, but it has absolutely no legal meaning, and you don’t need a license to cycle
@Scundered: ask the teacher can you sit at the front of the class next year. That should help.
I totally agree, I’ve bikes, am fit and like cycling. But feck that, their are very few bike lanes around me… One bad driver, I’m goosed… The mortgage doesn’t get paid and my family would end up in a hotel room.
Ha ha! The usual ranters on here, Uhhh Tax..Urrgghh..Insurance…Urmm..Licence plates…Urpp…dress up like a construction worker..!! Same Bee ol, locks over and over.
Where’s CanaryBlue with their baseball which was stolen by a bicyclist a few years ago?
Try crossing Grand Canal street bridge as a pedestrian at rush hour, huge amount of cyclists ignoring their traffic lights
The common denominator to all the anecdotal examples that walkers, drivers and cyclists have is that it’s not the activity itself that’s the problem, it’s that there’s a lot of stupid people out there. Also, in today’s society, attention spans are very short for a lot of people and so many lose their attention and focus a lot of times during their trip.
Segregated cycle lanes makes the most sense for everyone but not at the cost of worsening the traffic situation by narrowing roads to 1 lane etc.
From a walker, cyclist and driver.
@RogerRamjet: More cycle lanes = less motorised traffic = less need for wide multi-lane roads… Get it?
@Dub_Right: I do, do you? Don’t think it’s that simple my friend.
Build more greenways and bicycle lanes, like in Holland
There is no way I would cycle on the roads as they are – lethal.
@Austin Rock: Roads don’t kill cyclists….
@Dub_Right: Roads do kill cyclists quite regularly as they cause cyclists to fall. The problem is dangerous driving close to a cyclist hitting a pothole makes it much worse.
Until recently there were huge potholes on the bridge in Drumcondra which meant it was safer to stay in the centre of the lane. Cars would still try and pass and also tailgate cyclists and they then hit the potholes themselves. Roads are a huge factor with their bad design too. You should look at the new cycle lane by Kilmanham jail to see an accident waiting to happen. Blizzar merging cycle lanes and ones that stop dead in the middle of nowhere.
@Kal Ipers: Not my point… I could easily cycle through Drumcondra and Kilmainham at 6am on a Sunday with no motor vehicles around and in safety….
Make that 6pm on a Monday and that pothole or bad design could bring me into conflict with a truck, bus or a texting car driver that could end up with their vehicle rolling over my head…
@Dub_Right: no cyclists stupidity does, I live in the country and there are a lot of twisting roads in the area and it is not unusual to come round a corner and come across a group of lycra clad cyclists comeing at you two and three abrest and some times on the wrong side of the road and give you abuse when you beep them to move over as they bare oblivious to everything else other than themselves….
@Dub_Right: what about he texting cyclist ? seen onethe other week head down texting using both hands O and also on the wrong side of the road, drove past carefully as I diddnt want to startle him in case he lost his balance and fell in front of me, this is no joke I found it hard to believe….
@Peter donnelly: It’s legal to cycle 2-abreast on the roads, also when you come across a group cycling like this it may appear from the back that they are cycling 3 or 4 abreast, especially if the group is making a right turn…
Also what gives you the right to beep another group of road users out of the way, just because you’re in a larger vehicle, sounds like you may need to carefully review the manner in which you drive.
@Peter donnelly: No set of road users are perfect, however this person you witnessed is most likely to injure himself, so all you can do is ensure you don’t come into collision with said person…
While a great percentage of all road users do something while not paying attention that may cause an accident. I see more cyclists breaking red lights at speed , more cyclists crashing into people forcing people to jump outta their way on footpaths then I do see cars and pedestrians doing. At one section of lights at the five lamps every morning I witness cyclists nearly getting themselves killed then they then try blame the driver who had right of way or by cycling up and down from the road to footpath and road again not watching were vehicles are coming from.
@Frankie James: You see loads of cars breaking the speed limit on every road during every day, though you are unable to determine that based on casual observation so much easier to pick on the cyclist!
Apart from the inability to fully perceive motor traffic law violations you failed to mention that the southbound cycle lane from Newcomen Bridge to the 5 Lamps is on the footpath!
I also think what we are seeing is a very good example of “Suppressed Demand”,
i.e. much more people want to cycle than are actually cycling, this is mostly due to the perceived and real danger of city center cycling and also inadequate bike lock and storage facilities.
@Enda Smith: it’s called filtering and it is perfectly legal for cyclists and motorcycles to overtake slow or stopped traffic
I usually cycling wearing headphones. I’m sure that isn’t helping me while cycling, but not causing any troubles as well. You just need to be sure about what are happening around you when u are cycling. When are using headphones, usually you SHOULD be checking around you to be sure that is safe to do any movement that you intent to with your bike, just it. I never have any kind of problems regards the headphone, but I always try pay attention on everything around, its my life that is in risk, not the bus/tax/generic drivers that are in risk.
I think they need to just prioritize just a few main arterial segregated cycling routes in the city center. The suburbs and inner suburbs are generally ok.
Really the quays are a big problem. Also, the whole area from O’Connell Bridge, D’Olier Street, Pearse St, Dame st, College St, College Green, Westmoreland st…
There is a constant stream of cyclists in these areas and its a nightmare.
Ive noticed a two-way cycling path has been laid on the west side of O’connell bridge and this will lead south along westmoreland street and onto college green and dame st….so this is a big improvement and a step in the right direction
The comments here stating that cyclists don’t deserve adequate infrastructure until they “learn the rules of the road” should be applied to motorists too. Until we learn how to drive properly as a nation lets start closing some roads. I’d start with the Liffey quays.
A lot of this discussion is getting very petty.
People need to wake up to the fact that the future of Dublin inner city is public transport, cycling and pedestrianisation.
The density of the inner city is increasing by the day. There is a building boom of 1000′s of student apartments and 10,000′s of offices right now. These people will rely on the above transport to get around, so it needs to be prioritised.
A lot of the city road network was planned at a time when the car was king, suburbs were expanding and the inner city was dying. Now the opposite is happening
@Steven Feldman:
So Owen Keegan doesnt hate cars, what he is, is a visionary who is planning for a sustainable future.
I cycle through the city & it does feel dangerous, particularly on street you can’t avoid. I generally feel very nervous on Pearse Street, College Green, Dame Street, the Liffey Quays, around Christchurch.
I agree that cyclist need to observe rules of the road, but I don’t think some drivers realise how scary it is with very fast moving traffic passing close to your bike, while pedestrians, buses, taxis, car doors can pop out at you from the left at any second. A single accident could mean death.
What about the roller bladers ? I hear thats becoming a thing again
“Even under quiet conditions, then, the sense of hearing can at best provide an unreliable warning of a vehicle’s presence, and an inaccurate idea of its position. And while the sense of hearing can indicate that something is there, it cannot indicate that nothing is there. Most bicyclists learn quickly not to trust the sense of hearing to warn them before turning or changing lane position”
@Alan Kelly: If you cycle along Phoenix Park by park gate street there is strange audio illusion when cycling. Cars going at speed on the opposite side of the road appear to be coming from behind. There are number of spots like this about Dublin but some are only caused by the type of traffic weather and speed. It can be disorienting and I have seen cyclist reacting strangely when a truck goes by for what I assume is this effect .
@Kal Ipers: If your hearing is “compromised” on Parkgate Street, All the more reason to wear headphone and listen to music.
3 last year, 9 this year, it cubes on an annual basis – 81 mamils dead next year.
@David Cagney: many victims have been women, and not fitting with the mamil description at all.
@Scundered: Mamils, mawils, who cares? 81 is the target.
We need drivers to take their heads out of their phones and stop killing people
@ed w: That one I agree with wholeheartedly. As a road user for almost 30 years I’ve seen a staggering amount of selfish stupidity by people who simply refuse to leave the phone alone whilst driving. I was knocked off my motorbike by a doctor who decided to do a u-turn while on his phone without checking if it was safe to do so.
I’m not even reading the comments on this because it’s the same old morons saying we should ban cars and make way for the bicycle. Well let’s do just that shall we? Oh wait, we can’t. Because the amount of revenue generated by the Irish motorist through tax via the disc in the windscreen, call it what you like d1ckheads, it’s a road tax, and the tax on petrol, more than 90% of the cost of a litre of fuel goes to the gov. Not to mention the tax contributions by the members of the motor industry, from your local mechanic to the executives in the dealerships. It all adds up to a serious amount of money in the government coffers. Now, by comparison, what does the government make from the sale of a bicycle? Please, discuss……..
Agree,moved from normality(bishopstown) to Carrigaline ,few years back,and bike is in the shed mostly,roads are shit here,drivers in the main are not on the ball,in general unsafe I feel,certainly wouldn’t let my kid out on a bike here,,,, find in the city,drivers are more thoughtful,or maybe there’s more of a chance of a lawman pulling you
J
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