We the tax payers of the country Billy. Out of interest If I was an “established party hack mouthpieces” as you have humorously accused of being a number of time now, why would I be criticizing the government for their surrender to the unions.

Nobody claimed you were a competent party hack Mick.

I’ll be swatting up all weekend Billy

Fair play. And of course not all of the establishment parties are in government. FF for example are pretending they’re in opposition and not part of a de facto coaltion with the blueshirts.

Multiple sources for a teachers salary in Ireland, which are at a set rate and the correct figures are provided on the union’s website which is striking. Yet you call me a clown and you’re the one who puts up inaccurate rubbish!

If the government outlined a time frame towards eliminating the payscale disparity then an agreement could be reached. By breaking the agreement regarding the restored payment of supervision and substitution money the government provoked a row. Poor management of the situation.

@PaulJ: its not inaccurate and you are still a clown by all standards

Yes it is inaccurate, seriously do you have trouble reading? Here is the exact same information from the TUI website. I suggest you contact both unions to have them update their figures to match the crap you put up a link to! http://www.tui.ie/welcome-to-our-website/salary-scales-second-level-.2098.html

@PaulJ: The figures I provided are the average salary for teachers as of 11th October 2016 this is as per the link I posted. On another note, I have looked at some of your comments on other peoples posts and you sir are an insufferable p****.

Incremental pay doesn’t work. The only true block for young teachers are the old ones. Pay people on value and skill not on tenure and we wouldn’t have an issue.

100% correct and that should apply to all public servants. Pay increases should be awarded based on performance and qualification only.

And how do you measure teacher success and skill? Success in exams is heavily dependent on the social economic status of the student, which no teacher has control over. Poorer kids are often coming to school hungry and are coming from homes with little literacy stimulation. Richer kids supplement their school work with grinds and exam prep. America has driven its schools into the ground with teacher assessment rather than acknowledge the effects of income inequality.

Paul, you can’t win here. you present figures that’s are 100% accurate by the people who say teachers are underpaid, and the strike enthusiasts say : No! here is a website where anyone can put any make up pay on, and we’ll take it as fact. next they’ll say “ratemyteacher” is a more accurate measures of performance than international benchmarks. For supposedly educated people, they are surprisingly unfinching and dogmatic in the face of facts. And that, unfortunately, it’s what we have to manage when dealing with a service to educate our kids.

Paul, what he provided was an AVERAGE wage based on experience. The ASTI scale is for teachers who have FULL hours. The reality of today’s climate is that a lot of young teachers don’t have full hours each week and are not paid for holidays. If one is covering a maternity leave or filling in for someone who is out sick long term they don’t receive holiday pay. My first year teaching saw me with a 6 hour contract. People cannot survive on such contracts. I was lucky because I could live at home. Some people have to commute to work so that is not an option.

The unions more that anyone screwed over young teachers , they wanted to make sure all the long timers got out with their very large pension lump sums intact

niamh… it’s also very, very, important to note that your (valid) concerns are not in anyway related to this strike… it is only for full time teachers on post 2011 contracts. The current batch of NQT are left out in the rain, it’s only the big boys in the staff room that strike.

Are you saying that older teachers have less value and skill than younger teachers? That must be your inexperience talking!
You cannot place enough value on the experience of an older colleague. We all learn our trade over time, why ditch the older experienced teacher for a younger inexperienced one?

@brian boru: There not paid for thye summer holidays. They get paid for nine months which is spread out over the year.

*The

@Toirdhealbhach Ó Ceallaigh: if they are paid for 9 months work only, then divide their yearly salary numbers by 9 and multiply by 12 to get a level playing field

Their salary spread out over the year is comparable to private sector workers with similar qualifications. And they have 3 months off each year, plus long Christmas, Easter and midterm breaks. Equal pay for equal work? Not in this country!

Teachers do not have “paid” holidays. Nine months wages are spread over twelve. No holiday pay.

How could you possibly be behind the luas drivers and not the teachers? 6 weeks training to be a luas driver, a minimum of 4 years to be a teacher!

@ Mc Daid Clare: Yes – we all know that, it’s been said more than once here. The point is kind of moot though isn’t it? The nine months salary is still comparable to a similarly qualified private sector worker who gets paid for 12 months…and during the nine months that teachers are working they have 2 weeks off at Christmas, 2 weeks at Easter, plus at least another 2 for midterm.

I agree Alan, still can’t understand how anybody supported the luas drivers. Most teachers are not looking for extra money, just a level playing field. Seems like a no brainer.

@EvieXVI: We all went to school, every Irish person knows that teachers get long holidays. The strike has nothing to do with holidays, so why are you going on and on about them?

Because it’s relevant. Teachers have shorter working hours and longer holidays than any other group – public or private sector. If you want equal pay for equal work – which is what this this thread is about – why shouldn’t the number of hours being worked be taken into account? As I said, compared to the private sector, teachers are already being paid – on an hourly basis – more than the private sector, but yet consistently compare their salary to other sectors. Their pay comes from all of our taxes.

Actual lol. Having worked both private and public sector, I can tell you for a fact I do more hours working as a teacher. You dunno what you are talking about. You are just making assumptions. Shock horror, public servants salaries aren’t tax free. we all contribute to public services, and rightly so

Just to be clear, billy, you support fully equal pay for equal work. so do you support overpaid teachers pay being “equalised” to a common pay for all teachers? and i would think that, say, 1.5 x the average industrial wage would be a good benchmark. I’m tally curious as i do, and if you were a socialist you would to, but for some reason, you only support strikes when the pay scale eventually exceed 50/60k? Look deep in your heart – are you a socialist for equality.. or do you just jump on bandwagons to get votes. i thought you guys were a change, but instead you are just populists for any cause and couldn’t care less for the impact on normal paye workers.

just start fairing them one by one

‘Fairing?’ Few drinks last nite Michael?

Evie XVI. As a teacher of English I would like to say that I work a lot more than 22 hours a week. That is just contact time with students. It does not include all the preparation that goes into my lesson plans, or correcting copies, exams, essays. With new texts bring added to the LC course every year and the list of texts changing every year one has to start from scratch to prepare for those classes. A fair portion of my Christmas break is spent marking Christmas exams. February break is spent marking mocks. I always end of correcting copies in October and Easter. So those breaks are never entirely my own. It’s a tough job, and it is only getting harder with parents supporting their children and not the teacher these days. Gone is the respect that we showed when I was in school myself. There shouldn’t be a two tier pay scale in any profession. I pay my taxes too which helps other people out in our society.

Oh god , it comrade billy . When is the revelation kicking off Billy? Not before 11 in the morning id guess , the AAAers won’t be up

@EvieXVI: Have you seen the teachers salary? You’d swear they were paid a fortune. You don’t sound like you understand the problem teachers have; they don’t want a pay rise. New teachers are doing the exact same work as their colleagues who have been in the job before 2011. But these new teachers aren’t being paid the same rate, and never will be on the current salary scales.
You make it clear that you have a dislike of teachers and their massive amount of holidays, but come on, even you can see how unfair that is. Is it teachers fault that students get a long holiday period? Would you rather that they go into school during the summer and teach empty classes while their students are off on holidays?

@EvieXVI: You’re also smoking something seriously high if you think teachers get paid more than most other sectors. Most teachers work 9-5 on Monday to Friday (not all get the coveted half day mid-week). Not to mention if we decided to reduce their pay because as you mention, they get paid far too much which is BS, then who would become a teacher? How would our country fair without teachers who were up to standard, or with a lack of teachers?

You know countries like Norway and Finland pay their teachers extremely well and it’s a highly sought after job? All because teachers are respected as is their role in society. As a result, the learning flourishes and they have a highly educated workforce.

@Tadhg: Yes, I have seen teacher’s starting salary – €31,009 for new teachers this year. The average salary for an Irish graduate is now €28,461. The average graduate in the private sectors works a 40-hour week, 48 weeks a year. Is any of this inaccurate?

And where did I say that we should ‘reduce their pay’?

The ASTI and TUI members signed up to the Croke Park deal in the first place, selling out younger entrants could get sold out to save existing teachers). Many members of both unions were aware of the implications, and voted to reject it. Now, the unions have put themselves at odds with other trade unions by refusing to sign up to Landsdowne road agreement, which would have seen pay for new entrants restored.

So please stop with the personal insults, I have experience of working in both the public and private sector, and, like many people, am angry with the unions, not the teachers.

Lastly, I have always insisted that my children (who are the ones directly affected by the proposed strike) treat their teachers with respect. But it will be difficult for them not to feel badly let down by their teachers.

Shorter working hours? Are you for real? 9-10 hours a day in the school, little to no breaks as the kids are banging on the staff room door all of break/lunch requiring doctoring, mentoring, counselling you name it. Dealing with threats, abuse, intimidation in every single lesson, even first years! But with the attitudes of adults on here no wonder the kids have little to no respect.

Become a teacher then. Enough said.

@Evie: Mentioning the facts isn’t backing up your case at all. So teachers should suffer in their wages because of their holidays? I don’t see what hours worked or working in the private sector has to do with this issue?

Teachers don’t want a blanket pay rise. They want pay equality for all of their teachers. The LRA didn’t see pay restoration for new teachers, which is why the ASTI didn’t sign up to it. There was a move towards restoration, but it is not parity – it’s still far from it.

@Tadhg: I’m not trying to back up my case. I’m responding to your comments.

You asked ‘ Have you seen the teachers salary? You’d swear they were paid a fortune.’ And said ‘You’re also smoking something seriously high if you think teachers get paid more than most other sectors’. I answered theses comments, I have seen the teachers salary, and yes, new teachers earn more than average starting salary. Can you deny that my answers are correct?

I did not, at any stage, suggest reducing teachers pay.

You also said that I ‘make it clear that you have a dislike of teachers.’ Again, I never said this. My problem, again, is with the unions.

You also said that I don’t understand the problem. As I’ve already said, I do understand the problem, as do most of us. The ASTI is out of step with most other public service unions, the ASTI has created this problem of pay disparity, and now wants the government to solve the problem by giving money that is simply not there.

Please, Tadhg, read my answer before jumping to conclusions.

There’s no jumping to conclusions Evie. You were slating teachers over their long holidays and better pay per-hour than most private employees. I was defending them by informing you that it’s not as black and white as you make it.

@Tadhg: What are you defending? I was not ‘slating teachers over their long holidays and better pay per-hour than most private employees.’ I was pointing out that your assertion that when you said ‘You’re also smoking something seriously high if you think teachers get paid more than most other sectors.’ you were ignoring that fact, that the starting salary of a new teacher is, in fact, above the above the average starting salary for a graduate. The figures are available. If you feel that the figures are not accurate, please show me how.

I’ve answered you, I have explained my rationale, and you interpret my response as ‘slating’ but it is not. And, again, to point out your lack of actually reading the comment to which you are replying, at what point did I say it (or anything) is black and white?

@Billy Mooney:

The only disastrous consequences for society are you and your trotskyist mates extracting resources from this country through extortion, blackmail and a full on media campaign (if i see Ingrid Miley one more time….), ultimately leaving the country sick, uncompetitive and broke.

Unions are like a cancer, leeching nutrients from an otherwise healthy body.

Your banker mates exacted € 100 + billion from this nation and this is why the teachers and everyone else’s living standards have been decimated. We’re taking back what is ours Johnson and you had better get used to it.

So no answer but I’m guessing no services will be cut but magically all workers will earn more yeah. You’re delusional and the language you use is from a century ago, no wonder your party are known as the loony left!

We should be able to identify those who are paying over 50% marginal income tax by the neighbourhoods they live in and the make of car they drive.

Perhaps we ordinary people should march on their homes? We’re wasting time with the Government who are only the middleman elected by the capitalist elite.

The root of the issue are the big earners in 100k households who are reluctant to hand over more of their earnings to the ordinary people.

Wally, are you with me?

Ah yes, the “looney left” who loaded € 100 + billion of private banking debt on to the people’s backs and broke the economy. Oh no wait. ….that was the entire right wing political establishment of FF, FG and Labour. This isn’t a Q&A session you clown. I’ll respond precisely as I wish to your neoliberal drivel and you’ll be grateful for any bone I throw you.

Eh no Alpha. The only ones with you are your blueshirt mates.

But I thought we were brothers in arms?

Comrades against the majority of the country who vote for FG & FF, against the well heeled, against the conservative hardworking employed, against the tax payers and the savers, against those who invest their years of hard work in pensions – they are the enemy Wally!

Don’t chicken out now! We can have them, it will all be ours to share equally amongst the ordinary people!

It will be beautiful. We can raid Dame Street and start printing money once we are in power! Just a few keystrokes and we’ll all be swimming in cash!

You thought wrong Alpha. You’re a painful establishment mouthpiece and I’m fairly sound.

And the money doesn’t originate in Dame St anymore since your kind led us into the monetary trap of the Euro. Dame st is just a regional branch of the ECB now which of course is why Trichet was able to bounce Ireland into the Troika stitch up in 2010.

Bully, showing his true bullying colours.

How about making massive multi nationals actually pay the 12.5 percent corporation tax, then maybe we could look at employers prsi contributions which are around the lowest in the oecd group, and let us not forget the vulture funds benefiting from section 110 which has still not been fully closed. After that we could fully nationalise the health service which would provide savings of millions every year and perhaps provide a descent living wage for everyone.  Oh yes, and get our gas back from the corrib peninsula that we gave away for buttons.  I won’t mention digisat or the d.i.r.t. Scandal or ansbacher or any other scandal for already wealthy people to avoid paying their dues to society.

teaching is not a vocation. its a vacation.

One assumes you know nothing about education.Extra classes are actually the norm in most schools especially in honors maths classes.

*honours. One also hopes you’re not an English teacher.

Not at all. I must have been misled but I thought same striking teachers voted for screwing their younger future colleagues. This must have been something I dreamt up.

Lots of teachers do hold extra classes, particularly for exam year students, every year regardless of whether there were strikes that year or not. I did my leaving cert in 2010 and remember teachers holding extra classes in the run up to exams both before and after school. I am now a qualified teacher myself and glad, but not surprised to see that these extra classes are still common coming up to exam time. This is of course on top of teachers helping out with extra curricular activities after school.

Ian, I think it’s fair to say that, by any reasonable measure of objectivity, you’re full of garbage.

Thomas, one should always support there hypothesis with evidence. Could you provide some please?

Don’t know why you’re getting red thumbs for stating the facts. This madness of restoring every public sector members pay to pre crash levels is crazy in the current environment. The levels of pay were already increasing at unsustainable rates by FF in the years leading up to the crash and we are in a worse position now than we were then. That said this two tier system for teachers is b*llix, but don’t forget the slimey unions and older teachers themselves were the ones who sold them out a few years ago. How any young teacher could join these unions is beyond me!

People who go on strike can’t really claim to have a vocation. Will they be striking during one of their mid term breaks? No they’ll screw over their students and their parents instead.

Who’s going to strike on a day off in fairness?

@Cian Mac Eoin: Ricky Spanish. He seems to approve of the strategy. Maybe he could spend the time reading up on the facts behind the teachers actions instead of peddling the usual troll stuff.

Well they get so many it might be hard for them to avoid it.

I certainly wouldn’t let my children in a room with the “dregs of the earth”. I presume based on your disdain of teachers you home-school yours?

I’m a retired teacher. best job in the world. best paid best holidays little stress

@Gerard Creedon: ‘greeting too much fist place’, Really? What will they do next!

“fist place”……ooooooooooooooooooo Matron!

Gerard, you obviously didn’t spend much time in school yourself.

50 hours plus a week actually. And it’s still not enough time to get all the work done for 400 pupils.