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AMAZON SAYS NEARLY 20,000 of its frontline US staff have tested positive or have been presumed positive for Covid-19.
But the online retail behemoth, revealing the data for the first time, said the infection rate of its employees was well below that seen in the general US population.
The disclosure comes after months of pressure from Amazon workers and labour groups calling for the company to divulge the coronavirus numbers.
Amazon said in a corporate blog that it provided the data as part of its effort to keep employees informed, and to share details and best practices with governments and other companies.
”We hope other large companies will also release their detailed learnings and case rates because doing so will help all of us,” Amazon said.
“This is not an arena where companies should compete — this is an arena where companies should help one another.”
The Seattle-based company said that it examined data 1 from March to 19 September on 1.37 million workers at Amazon and Whole Foods Market across the US.
It said it compared the Covid-19 case rates to the general population, as reported by Johns Hopkins University for the same period.
Based on that analysis, if the rate among Amazon and Whole Foods employees were the same as that for the general population, it estimated it would have seen 33,952 cases among its workforce. That is 42% higher that Amazon’s actual rate.
50,000 tests per day
The company also said it is conducting thousands of tests each day, which will grow to 50,000 tests per day across 650 sites by November.
Companies have no legal obligation to publicly reveal how many of their workers have contracted the virus and few are doing so.
Employers do have to provide a safe working environment, which means they must alert staff if they might have been exposed to the virus, according to guidelines from the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, the federal agency that enforces workplace safety.
Marc Perrone, president of the United Food and Commercial Workers International Union (UFCW), which represents grocery and meatpacking workers, called Amazon’s disclosure as “the most damning evidence we have seen that corporate America has completely failed to protect our country’s frontline workers in this pandemic”.
UFCW is calling for immediate action by federal regulators and a full congressional investigation.
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Point of no return?
When was israels point of no return………………….hypocrites
Putin wants to be the new Hitler.
Stefan
Too late Bibi has that role !
Glen, there you go again. Diverting attention away from the issue at hand and defending Putin. You do admire him. Don’t deny it.
Hey I got to admit Declan a guy that wrestlers bears on his lunch break gets my respect over a guy who plays golf all year round and can’t follow through on any of his promises …. But hey you voted him in …. Ron Paul supporter myself but I’m sure you have that on file in Langley.
Glen, you are not a registered US voter so supporting Ron Paul means nothing.
Now remember hitler and how he wanted a little piece of that country and a little piece of this country. Apply that little piece of info to Putin.
Are you that blind to Putins actions.
Btw, so you admire Putin and support Ron Paul? Do you not realize that is a big contradiction? One is a libertarian and the other has the hallmarks of a dictator. Your comments don’t make sense. Get real glen!
His private life is far from what he portrays himself to be. Imho. Up there with Edinburgh clergyman.
And glen, you disapprove of the CIA. That’s fair enough. But you support a ex KGB officer. Putin rose up through the ranks of that organization.
See! That’s another contradiction. Would Ron Paul support either organization?
Two points I want to make Declan
1 I never said I supported Putin. I said I respect a guy who can wrestle bears.
2 I went over on the Morrison in the early 90′s and I hold dual citizenship therefore I am able to vote in a presidential election.
Glen..in that case you must have swore on oath, “that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies”. You are either a good man or a right hypocrite.
Get Glen out
Let me make my point clear. The EU are imposing more sanctions on Russia The will retaliate accordingly like they have so far but no one notices that the Russians are collaborating with the Chinese we will end up loosing out on trade etc the Russians and the Chinese will make it and as far as i know money is Power and Power is all that Putin wants so to narrow it down this will escalate because Putin will not stop. The end …
I respect a guy who can wrestle bears hahahahahahaha funniest thing I’ve heard in quite a while. You really are stupid.
Stefan, you know nothing about economics. The EU is China’s biggest trading partner and Russia will never be able to replace the commerce between the EU and China. China came out against Putin when he annexed Crimea.
Maybe so i wont argue there but i still have a feeling that something bad is going to happen in the future
@ Ian Walsh .. All China said was ” We understand Russia’s concerns” How did you dream China came out against Putin ? Your off with the fairies Ian.
I see the Russian troll propaganda machine is out in force on the journal today , do you idiots really believe that your pro Putin comments will influence us in any way ?? Putin is a nutcase , a classic egomaniac control freak , corrupt to his core, who has squashed all free speech and the press in his own little dictatorship. A modern day Stalin !
With what proof Karl? He is just being targeted by the West because the want more power and money. Ukraine are the ones at fault here and NATO shot down the passenger plane.
Where in the world can anyone get the idea that Putin has done anything wrong?
Gary, you live in the west where you can express an opinion, be free to criticise the president:government. Try to that in Putins attempt to rebuild the USSR. Try to be gay in Russia. You f uc king left wing communists make my blind boil.
Gary you just have to look at his own propaganda. Riding Horses bare chested posing!!! What normal person does that? He has shown himself to be a narsacisstic meglomainiac.
You mean the Natoites from Natoistan?
Weasel
” you make my blind boil ”
Are you the president of a blind club whose members are furious at the minute?
@Gary Brandon. You call for proof against Putin, so I’m asking, where is your proof that NATO shot down the Malaysia Airlines flight over Ukraine?
As for Putin’s threat about nuclear weapons. Call his bluff, it was shown at the end of the cold war when the inspectors went into the Soviet union that if war had broken out, 86% of the Soviet land based missiles wouldn’t have launched because the silos were full of water.
His submarine launch capabilities are a threat but he needs to be reminded that the west has a far better and more advanced nuclear capability than Russia.
Georgia yesterday, Ukraine today, who tomorrow???
Gladys, you attacked me last week for correcting your grammar. You know exactly what I meant. My wife lived behind the iron curtain, as have my parents in law, this is what Putin wants to restore; communist Russia in charge of a repressed Eastern Europe.
Yes Gary – its Ukraine’s fault for being invaded…
Weasel
Who relieved themselves in your cornflakes this morning ? I wouldn’t “attack” anyone over correcting my grammar …. Was only having the banter lad no need to be a grouch !!
Gary, it’s as plain as the light of day.
Glen, I sense some aggression from you this morning. Insults as well. Pot+kettle+ black.
In our Western media he is a bad my yes, the EU are just looking for more power, they don’t want Russia ruining that,
The United States of Europe is what they want, no singular countries and control from one base.
Merkel is Hitler without the tash.
Ireland needs out of Europe and need separate themselves from UN murder missions.
Mick Putin is a mad tyrant who wants to wage war on the world , did you know he actually has horns on he’s head … True story !! Heard it on Fox News !!
Mitch you know him so well. LOL
Yes Karl, they believe in Putin. They’re ready to die for him. Comparing to Adolf Hitler in 1939 I cannot see too much differences between them. When west European countries will realise who is Putin?
Hi Gary, you made me laugh. You’re so naive :-)))
Gary, you’ve never been touched by communism. I forgive you.
@ Karl. I’m sure they are only trying to influence the intelligent, not you or maybe just voicing their opinion. Is your middle name Mick.
@ Mitch Connors .. MICK JORDAN IS A CYBER STALKER, A TROLL, YOU INTERACT WITH IT AT YOUR OWN RISK. LOOK AT THE LINK TO SEE HIS CRAZY MIND IN ACTION.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/khodorkovsky-calls-on-russians-to-protest-kremlin-war-against-ukraine-362617.html?fb_comment_id=fbc_581692415273188_582243008551462_582243008551462#f1d2078e83d4314
Don’t think Putin cares what Hollande say’s. Putin has the support of 87% of his people, Hollande has 17% and dropping. Its pretty clear who’s running their country more efficiently.
Those two figures cannot be compared. The media is Russia is far from pluralistic and free.
@John – only problem with that analysis is that in France you are allowed an opinion. In Russia you are told what you think.
Send in Gilmore !
ryan ash
seriously, what do you think of inm and the european media? how old are you? 10?
Does this mean that the lie is more believable than the truth. At what stage does the world react to state terrorism and return to ways of peace.
We are living in dangerous times….
John, Putin does not care what anyone thinks. He knows that the EU and America will not take military action.
Chris the Americans were backing the state terrorism of Israel last month, along with most Western leaders so enough of the b*llshit about standing up against state terrorism when most western leaders are backers of state terrorism. The EU and the US stand for hypocrisy the world over, they continually talk about stopping aggressive behaviour and acts of terror by rogue states but all the time stand by Israel as they do exactly what they attack and sanction others for.
The world we live in rotten to the core, with everyone out for themselves and if there is no gain for the west or their rivals they ignore genocide and grave injustices. Rwanda and Cambodia had nothing to offer the west or anyone else so everyone ignored the genocide of millions in both countries. The Americans, or the EU, or China or Russia all stand for the same thing, power and control over resources!
It is interesting that what EU and US leaders is doing could be best described as warmongering. They first ignited the conflict by funding the operatives behind the Maidan, keep fueling it with supplies, advisers etc. and then sanction Russia without even presenting any real evidence it did anything more than maybe sending their compatriots some equipment (which is, as stated, the same thing they are doing for the other side). It seems they hope Russian leadership will loose their cool and will do what EU&US seem to be waiting for – openly attacks Ukraine. But the don’t. Instead, they broker energy & financial deals with China, India & Iran. And sanction EU back. Who looses most on all this? All those killed in Ukraine so far and European economy.
Hitler had the support of 90% of his people.
Att, got any proof the EU and US funded Maidan? Also you’re blatantly wrong regarding Russia and the rebels, they’ve caught entire Russian units and their equipment deep in Ukrainian territory actively fighting alongside rebel units.
@Eamonn: G. W. Bush had less than 50% of the votes and was elected. Should Russia have invaded to protect the American’s sovereignty?
@ Jason Culligan .. If they had caught entire Russian units and their equipment it would have been all over TV, makes no difference now, Russia will have recognised the independent states before the September election, Porky will have no one to question the election results, and no one to blame for the failures. After that I don’t see Russia recognising the coup regime, that’s going to be like N. and S. Korea trying to join NATO at the same time. America has admitted spending $ Billions on the coup, keep believing it was to plant grass. The $6 Billion is nothing compared to what they will now have to pay for their little adventure.
There is only one solution here and it has been on the table since April. Washington has to insist to Poroshenko to call a ceasefire and negotiate directly with the rebels. The game is up here. The Russians have not invaded Ukraine. The rebels have turned the tide. Support for the war in Ukraine has plummeted. More sanctions hurts Europe not the US. European leaders wake up snd stop being US puppets.
Those plucky Ukranian rebels with all their brand new tanks, artillery and armoured vehicles manned by Russian soldiers on their holidays and commanded by retired Russian officers. Genuine Ukrainian rebels are short on the ground apparently
Couldn’t agree more John. Immediate ceasefire followed by free, fair, transparent and independently monitored elections to chart East Ukraine’s (and Crimea’s) future, without outside influence or armies/militias on the ground to intimidate voters either way. This is what should have happened from day 1 of this conflict.
The Russians haven’t invaded the Ukraine? John, you’re quite frankly delusional if you still think that. There’s a mountain of evidence pointing to the contrary.
It’s not the only option, I mean there are other options.
The Ukrainians could surrender to invading Russians. The Russians could stop invading. NATO could supply the Ukrainians with military support. NATO could destroy the Russian army in Ukraine. NATO could destroy the Russian army within say 200 miles of the border.
I mean there are lots of options.
The US ruled out the military option David. Try to keep up.
Funny russia says it isn’t supporting the rebels too
While all you Russophobic clowns were making apologies and excuses for the burning alive of pro Russian demonstrators in Odessa and muppets like Culligan were guffawing at the “restraint” shown by the Ukies as they murdered innocent Russian civilians, there was still a chance for negotiations. Negotiations were possible all the way since April. Now the tide has turned on the fascists, just like it turned at Stalingrad in 1943. I’m seeing reports now of a total collapse of the Ukraine army. Someone once said, “when dealing with the Russians, play fair or don’t play”. The disgusting duplicity and naked aggression shown toward these people in Ukraine who just wanted to maintain their cultural, linguistic and economic ties to their Russian motherland will, I fear, not be forgotten by the novorussian leadership. Nobody bothered to take their views into account this whole time. They say pride comes before the fall. Somebody on the fascist side will have to put their forked tail between their legs and talk to the novorussian leadership. I have no idea what they will demand but after all the needless bloodshed I somehow doubt they’ll settle for autonomy.
Well said John
Btw Avina etc I said from day 1 the US would lead Europe and Ukraine up the garden path on this one. Just as the tide turns militarily in Ukraine, just as the yanks beefed up the war drums, they blinked. From day 1 it was obvious to anyone with half a brain that nobody is going to back a gang of nazis who wish to attack Russians in a part of the world that’s as close to being Russia proper as makes no difference. In case you missed Porky and the nazis being hung out to dry here it is in black and white. Game set and match to the Russians. So us a favour lads, accept defeat gracefully and concentrate on easier targets like Pashtun bushwhackers in Afghanistan. Your beloved Washington might like to play a hand of checkers against the mad mullahs but they are no contest in a game of chess against the Russian masters on their own patch. Avina I asked my handlers in the kremlin about your little plan to rerun the referenda. They were polite but the basic message was stick your plan where the sub do to shine and think twice the next time you think it’s a good idea to support killing innocent Russians.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/obama-rules-out-us-military-action-in-ukraine-284083.html
# sun don’t shine #
Jaysus lads Avina, Jason, Mick Hellooooo…..? Awful echo in here. Anymore snide remarks about terrorists in the East? Anymore lazy posturings about the Russians? Bit difficult after poor old Washington just had its @ss handed to it and the clock is ticking on this Ukie regime they installed eh? Anymore suggestions from la la land about rerunning referenda Avina? Nah didn’t think so. Stick to cheerleading your Washington heroes in Afghanistan lads. Leave the real geopolitics to the Russians ye won’t look so idiotic in the long run lol
John when Russians are standing in ques for hours for a single loaf of bread that will cost several million roubles we will see who has the last laugh.
Ah the old Russian bread line joke mick lol jaysus ya have me now lol I tell ya there’s nothing like losing a war that’ll sort things out like reverting to good old racist Russophobia. Rings a bit hollow though now that your heroes in Washington have lead you into an embarrassing come down. Oh my word this sweet… And just to think mick, they didn’t even have to threaten cutting off the gas, not to mention doing it!
I hope they are paying you well John.
To be Honest John I for one would have no probleying a little extra for Gas to bring the Russia to its knees
Ah now David please. You see David my story is that my wife is Russian. I was quite sceptical of them at first but then I forgot the Russophobic bullsh2t in the west and do you know what David? I came to realise that the Russians are the best thing since lived bread. That’s because I’ve lived amongst them and grew to love them. David you can know I’m not paid for this because I’m on public record for saying that Putin should have occupied the entire East of Ukraine back in march. That would have saved a lot of Russian lives. But hey, who am I to question the great man himself? In the end it’s game set and match to the Russians and I am one happy man. Peace out my friend lol
# Sliced bread #
You’d be happy to pay extra mick but unfortunately for you the bulk of your fellow countrymen and women are not Russophobic dyed in the wool fascists as you are. Enjoy defeat mick..,
My country men. Are you not Irish too John?
I am mick, our countrymen are not Russophobes as you are.
You would be surprised John. The vary majority of people I have talked to all to a man and woman see Putin’s Russia for what it is.
@ Mick Jordan TAKE YOUR MEDICINE MICK !
I don’t really get it. If it is ok for Scottish people to decide on their future why is it not ok for ethnic Russians in Ukraine, if they are in the majority in some regions to decide the future for themselves in the regions in which they live?
Perhaps because Scotland’s referendum is taking place without any outside interference from a foreign army.
If they’re that keen on being Russian then emigrate to Russia FFS !!
When is a country not a country – perhaps when your neighbour decides he likes your’s better.
Excellent point. Crimea was part of Russia from 1783 to 1954, they voted to return. Get over it
Peter is right the crimeans voted for the Russia despite the face that Russia invaded the Crimea with troops without insignia and then denied they were there. That’s proper democracy in action
Peter the vote was illegal by international and Ukrainian law. You can’t honestly be that naive to think that the Crimean referendum was legal, fair or binding in any way.
Also to add, Russians are not the ethnic majority in eastern Ukraine. Only Crimea has a majority Russian ethnicity with every other oblast in the country comprising of mainly ethnic Ukrainians.
Why was it illegal? Because Europe and the US didn’t like the out come? I only mentioned Crimea. Not Eastern Europe.
Eastern Ukraine*
Peter. Because the result was decided on before a single vote was cast.
He’s not bothered either way … A great leader who does not want to see his country ruined by Liberal EU beliefs..Remember folks there are Far Right elements on the Ukraine that we should all be afraid of
Ah shut up…
Linda what’s your take on the far right in Russia?
Linda
Living in Russia is very different than most people think.
So a nation which hasn’t had independently verifiable free elections in years, run by a man who has bent the constitution to allow himself and his supporters to remain in power longer than was previously legal and invades other countries before his parliament even approves the action isn’t a Far Right element we should be worried about?
Sure the usa is worse by miles . When they have elections there only two parties democrats and republican . Pure shite theyre all controlled by the one crowd . They have a privately own federal reserve who prints money . Whos shareholders anominity is protected .so the president is then instructed to start a war which of course requires a nice loan from the private federal reserve which makes these shareholers enormously rich. It ridiculous and we are so fair down this rabbit hole
Barry, thats gotta be the biggest load of garbage spouted on here for a long time. A privately owned federal reserve that prints its own money ?, thats a classic !!!
Not to mention the fact that there are many political parties in the US, not just two. The Republicans and Democrats hold the most influence on voters but that has been decreasing over the last number of years.
Stephen the federal reserve is privately owned and congress handed authority to it to print dollars in 1913. That’s a publicly verifiable fact. The federal reserve is about as federal as federal express and has no reserves.
Read pls,
The twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks were established as the operating arms of the nation’s central banking system. They are organized much like private corporations—possibly leading to some confusion about ownership.
It says organised like not organised as !’m
Jason .. Why is there so many Europeans after joining anti Ukraine forces ?? Mostly french , Europeans like myself are displaced from the EU , I see it as a greedy corrupt organisation that only serves the rich
What Europeans would those be? Now we do know of Europeans fighting for Ukraine but so far we have only heard of Russians and Chechians fighting for Ukraine the terrorists.
Jaysus Mick there ya are. My friend did ya not hear the news? The yanks have pulled the plug on porky and the Nazis. The clock is ticking on their little Ukie junta. Suck it up mick, the Russians dealt the arrogant war mongering heroes of yours in Washington a fat lip they sorely deserved. Enjoy :-)
http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/obama-rules-out-us-military-action-in-ukraine-284083.html
Deegan, lay off the vodka, you’re coming unhinged. This situation has quite a ways to go yet..
Where’s the plug ? Ukraine doesn’t need more foreign troops on the ground and nato hasn’t said it won’t provide logistical support and equipment and intelligence which is all the Ukranian army needs really. On another note the rouble has dropped again and Russia gas never been able to feed itself so let’s see how they get on this winter
Stephen I’m in such a good mood I green thumbed ya for that one. You’re American I think Stephen? Can you correct my following statement where it’s wrong? Washington lead Ukraine (just like Georgia) and Europe up the garden path. Now that the going gets tough she pulls the plug leaving the latest Russophobic suckers she seduced firmly out to dry. Am I wrong there Stephen. I’ll grab another vodka now lol
John maybe you can point out where the US or NATO ever said they were going to put troops into the conflict? That piece is not new news. You really need to try much harder than that. So Unless Russia is planning to declare all out war on Ukraine the Government in Kiev is going nowhere. And as Russia is still lying about have any troops involved in the conflict how are they going to square declaring War on Ukraine with the international community?
Ah mick fair play to ya. You see mick this whole thing got started by the yanks trying to, as we say here in Ireland, “pull a stroke”. The strike fell flat on its face. They demanded war, they got it. They escalated at every opportunity. And when push came to shove they blinked first. Now they have just left the Ukie clowns high and dry. I wouldn’t fancy being an Ukie warlord in Kiev, with a victorious pro Rusdian army knocking on the door any day now and uncle having high tailed it back to Washington would you mick? lol oh lord victory is sweet. Peace out clowns, when the Ukies are finally out out if their misery maybe we’ll talk about what comes next…
Deegan, “Novorussia” would be destined to become the next social backwater. outcast and internationally unrecognized. Putin has been revealed as a fraud based on what he had said up to recently. This is a land grab by Russia. With sanctions the west has made the price of Putin’s policy that much higher. The Russian economy is already starting to suffer. The pact between Putin and the Russian population has been based on their standard of living increasing..like hitler he may not be able to sustain that.
A fraud is it Stephen? Tell me my friend, who told us Saddam had WMDs? Who told us the biggest porky pie that was ever told in 911? I suppose you’d have us believe those buildings just collapsed themselves is it? Who told us Assad had WMDs? Who told us in Ireland that we couldn’t write down any debt when even the IMF wanted to? Who told us the Russians brought down MH17? Oh lord Stephen you calling Putin a fraud is the best one yet. Stephen please you guys have to hang around and allow the Russians to kick ye in the gonads just one more time, I’ll pay good money to watch a repeat performance lol
John. There is no getting away from the simple fact that the Russian economy is starting to crumble and with the new sanctions about to be imposed its only going to get worse faster. You should ask the Iranians about what Western Sanctions are like. And they weren’t even that reliant on the EU to the extent Russia is to begin with.
Nice deflection there Deegan. Saddam Hussein told the world that Iraq had WMDs.
Did you ever wonder why the day after Collin Powell made his presentation to the UN on WMDs that Saddam Hussein never said “hold on, inspectors can come in today and examine every one those purported sites in Colin Powells presentation so we can reveal the US is lying”. He bluffed and got what was coming to him..
Oh mick that’s right you know what? I think those Russians are startin ya crack lol mick try taking out an atlas. Take a look at Iran, take a look at Russia. Get back to me when you spot a difference mick and we’ll pick it up from there for the next lesson lol
Deegan . You really are unhinged. I can picture you giving Putin the “Sieg Heil” salute
Does your atlas show you where China is and it’s proximity to mother Russia? The is a global economy, Putin is forgetting how the world works. You’re going to have a sore head when you wake up.
Stephen you’re getting your cliches mixed up now. After all Stephen I like you. You see the only fly in the ointment for ya is that it was actually the nazis which Washington unleashed who were pulling the seig heil stuff. Did ya mad that bit Stephen? Those lads in balaklavas sporting wolfsengels and shouting seig heil, they were backed, funded and supported by Washington! Oh dear Stephen I think you’ve joined this Ukraine thread a little late in the day. But at least you are right about one thing, I will have a sore head in the morning lol
John. As has even been admitted by your own side the Russian economy is only equal to that of Italy. So bringing it down won’t take all that much. Hundreds of billions have already been pulled out of Russia. The Ruble is on a downward slide, Russian banks are finding it nearly impossible to borrow from the international banking system. And that is only from relatively minor sanctions. What do you think is going to happen when the more serious sanctions start.
Mick in case you are still not getting this, the Russians have this all worked out. They are breaking from the dollar mick, they are making their own system, one which wadhington doesn’t control. But I fear that’s one for another day, it’s getting late..,
Btw lads this just in, DPR forces (that’s Donetsk people’s republic) have just invaded Zaparozhia oblast. Did I hear that right? We’ve been hearing about the imminent collapse of the rebels for two months now. Lo and behold they are capturing territory which they never even claimed when this war began! Lord above lads, it seems a certain main stream media has been blowing a helluva lotta smoke up yer nether regions! At this rate the novorussian flag will be flying over 50% of Ukraine before winter comes… Did somebody say let’s negotiate? Lol
Ah mick , I did have good respect for you until that last comment , I’m not defending isis , they are pure evil that behead innocent people , I’m just saying that the USA created them , funded them and now they are fighting them . A very clever move by the USA I must say
Jaysus Stephen yer gone all quite on me. Do you Yankee boys not like being a loser? I know it’s all winners and losers for ye right? All fun and games when innocent Russians are dying just for your governments sick f@@king geopolitical shenanigans eh Stephen? Bit harder to take when the Russians suddenly turn around and hand yer new b1tches their @sses eh? I didnt see too many American get killed in Ukraine Stephen did you? A lot of Russians did though. Perhaps you can deliver a message to Washington from me Stephen, get the f@@k out of Europe and stop funding the killing of Russians. Am I going too fast for ya Yankee boy?
Stephen , UN investigation led by hans blix for WMDs , UN got full access to all areas , report said no evidence of WMD in Iraq .. Bush ignored the UN , Infact he mocked the UN and invaded Iraq anyway. The invasion was illegal and bush is a war criminal .
Deegan is going to have one hell of a hangover when he sobers up! :-D
Avina how’s the campaign for another referendum in Crimea going? Lol you see Avina the Russian government isn’t like the Irish, they don’t rerun the same referendum over and over until a new result appears lol
Mitch you said : “on the evil side is Russia , Iran ,Syria ,Isis and anyone else who stands up to the USA ” Now are you trying to say that ISIS is not Evil?
That’s what I said , on the evil side is isis , why the confusion ?? I’ll spell it out .. When USA pulled outta Iraq , the Iraqi government signed a contract that they would buy all weapons from USA , now Iraq have an enemy isis , Iraq needs a lot of weapons from the USA , also known as the Carlisle group , a privately owned arms manufacturer . War = money .. Isis was created to keep war in the Middle East . Now USA has installed fear in their own people agAin, they can keep going with their main plan .. To continually attack the 4th amendment , they’re succeeding !!
John, it’s easy for the rebels to capture territory when the bulk of the fighting is by Russian Armed Forces.
Deegan, now that’s what I call a Raving Rant.
You should be punished by a bad hangover and having to re-read the stuff you wrote.
Stephen – the US Federal Reserve is a private institution – it is not owned by the USA Government.
A Hybrid of both public and private would be a better description. “independent within the government” rather than “independent of government”. The governor and the board are appointed by congress. Quite successful set-up given the fact that the US dollar since world war 2 has been the most dominant currency in the world.
They are trying to punish Russia for joining BRICS which challenges the US dollar control of the oil exchanges,which keeps the dollar afloat,very simple stuff
The EU should think before making false accusations against Putin.
It will be the farmer, apple grower and beef producers that will suffer with the backlash of any sanctions. Russia will simply seek markets elsewhere and rightly so.
Ablitive don’t talk so stupid, even Russians realise that you have to plant and grow a harvest before you can reap it.
So where are these markets that Russia can simply seek elsewhere. Where does the money come from to buy foreign apples and beef when someone else is prepared to pay a higher price.
False accusations? Your post says everything anyone needs to know about you…
There are reports in that Ukraine Junta Government purchased several scrapped T90 tanks from Hungary recently and had them placed at strategic locations in Ukraine to frame Russia. Ukraine dose not use T90 tanks so what the hell would Ukraine want with scrapped T90 tanks.
Images of these same tanks were recently posted on the mainstream media http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28961080
Russian T-72 Tanks should have stated.
I will save you the time of going to Google Translate. A couple of weeks ago, Ukraine bought some old T-72′s from Hungary for 8,500 dollars each, their value as scrap metal. Now Ukraine does not use the T-72, it uses the later t-80 and t-84. But Russia still uses the T-72.
Did Ukraine buy these tanks to plant near the border and frame Russia for an invasion?
UPDATE: Yes, that was the plan. Today the BBC (Buggering British Children), the news network that reported the collapse of World Trade Center Building 7 twenty six minutes BEFORE it actually happened, is showing photos of T-72s painted with Russian markings in Eastern Ukraine and insisting this is proof of a Russian invasion.
Please post this information everywhere you see the story that “Russian” tanks have been found in eastern Ukraine.
Seriously you post an article in Russian and use it as evidence that the Ukranians have purchased t72s ??? That’s shoddy even for you
This was a copy and paste… I didnt see the BBC part until it was pasted… Mods if you could delete
@ablitive …. Ha ha ha , can’t stop laughing :). The democratically elected Ukrainian government “Planted ” tanks to “Frame” Russia !!! Did they “Plant” those Russian soldiers and tanks and heavy artillery in Ukraine too ?? You morons are good for a laugh if nothing else !
Rian Lynch .. it’s Hungarian and NOT Russian.. Google Translate….
SOLD FOR THE PRICE OF SCRAP ARMY TANKS – ON THE WAY TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE
“A vigilant reader sent in the following photos, which were made in Nyíregyháza railway station on August 2. According to the information provided on the trains headed Záhony, which crossed the state border to the Ukraine. The photo is interesting that these T-72 ever for the average stock of Hungarian Army tanks are visible”….
Ablitive, what are you smoking? The Ukrainians have had some older T-72 tanks in reserve since the collapse of the USSR. If that purchase did happen, it could easily be explained as looking for spare components to keep their reserve fleet of T-72′s serviceable.
Also it entirely depends on what version of the T-72 you’re talking about. Russia has mostly sold off its older T-72′s and maintains the much more modern T-72BA and BM variants which Hungary does not have and certainly would not sell for scrap value as they can compete with modern NATO armour.
Karl .. Its not the fist time the Ukrainian army “planted” something and were later caught with their pants down…
Mainstream Media was full of images of an empty BUK missile carrier travelling across Ukraine in the immediate aftermath of MH17 false flag.. Some vigilant resident spotted a car dealer ship billboard in the background that was located 80 KM off course of where Ukraine claimed to have photographed this empty Buk Launcher.
Car dealership billboard ist picture in DM article.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696847/They-shouldnt-f-g-flying-There-war-going-Ukraine-intelligence-officials-release-phone-calls-claim-PROVES-Russia-shot-Flight-MH17.html
Well excuse me my ignorance. And amazing work by the Ukranians to get 4 scrap tanks into battle readiness in a short few weeks and then transport them to the border and secretly place them into a convoy coming over the border from russia
I’m sorry that article is all about how the rebels shot down the plane? Plus it has transcripts between rebels etc? No where does it say anything about false flags?
Rian Lynch …These are nothing more than props used for propaganda on the mainstream media. They don’t even have to work.
Yes Frank. And you deep an Eye out for those Lizard Men too.
@ Ablitive …. “Vigilant” resident !! Jesus wept comrade ! You really are having a laugh , what’s your thoughts on north koreas dear leader by the way ? Genuine question
Spare parts . Same chasis
Ablution, false ?
Amazing all the concern about Russia but when israeli terrorists invade and occupy land and slaughters its owners it seems to be ok ???
Those who objected to israeli invasion, illegal occupation and illegal settlers are blown to bits from the skies by israeli terrorists with American war planes and it’s no big deal but Russia going into Ukraine is soooooo much more important.
Go figure ….
This isn’t about Israel, this is about Russia. Stay on topic.
Its the usual tactic from the Putinistas. Try and deflect the debate away. Talk about everything and anything else to get it away from Russia.
Ah sure it’s only an invasion paul eh ? Sure what’s the harm !! If only those pesky Ukrainians would do what they are told , Hungary 1956 all over again ..
Jason he is pointing out the hypocrisy and double speak of western leaders which is a fair point. They back state terror in some cases and sanction others. How can they be taken seriously when they sanction some states but support others acting similarly. If they treated all rogue states similarly their opinions and actions would be respected by all but as they aren’t they are simply hypocrites.
Can’t wait till a good auld war is started .. I wonder what the USA & England be like when they’re fighting an army that can equal them if not stronger than them :)
Mitch. You can’t be serious. The Russian army would be no match for NATO. If they tried they would cease to exist as a fighting force.
Putin really knows how to stand up to the USA , he interferes in Iran and Syria , Putin is like the big guy in a school yard who stands up to the bully’s , :)
@ Jason Culligan .. It’s known as supporting evidence, even in courts, what do you fear about others speaking sense ? and why do you to stop free speech ?
The most dangerous threat to peace is NATO war mongering how dare Russia and the BRIC nations try to break free from the dollar and Rothchild central bank system that has us all enslaved
Definitely and how dare Ukraine be an independent country
Independent under European rule working good for us lol
..and what’s your version of not being “enslaved”? Living in North Korea or under ISIS.
How are they under European rule?
There will be a lot of talk but besides additional sanctions nothing will happen. As can be seen the sanctions are not working as Putin looks for more lebans raum….
What do your propose should happen then?
The EU and the rest of the Western world should grasp the nettle and impose a total blockade of ALL trade and services with Russia. Stop tinkering around the edges of the Russian economy but utterly destroy it.
Also, accepting the Ukrainian request to join NATO would put Russia in a very precarious position. Russia may be strong but it is in no position to be entering open confrontation with NATO.
I don’t know Ryan but I do know appeasing someone like Putin just encourages him to try to grab more land….
The EU and the rest of the Western world should grasp the nettle and impose a total blockade of ALL trade and services with Russia.’#
The sanctions are doing more harm to EU that Russia – more wishful ”thinking”.
The only economies that will be destroyed are EU ones .
Russia is looking to the East – eveer hear of the BRIC countries .
Yes Jim. Keep believing that if it makes you happy.
The west are pathological liars and have done nothing but spread fear and lies about the situation in Ukraine, a war started for and by the West. The BBC reports a Russian armoured column in Ukraine 2 weeks ago (lies) NATO release satellite image of Russian tanks in Ukraine(lies) Ukrainian Nazi government accuse Russia of an Invasion of apc’s this week (lies) 1000 Russian troops invade (lies) seperatists shoot down MH17 (lies) After the lies around Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Georgia, Syria (chemical attack anyone ?). You people are still prepared to listen to the crap you are fed. The Nazis knew that people dont believe small lies but they do believe the big ones. If the US wanted to stop the war they only have to instruct their puppet regime in Kiev to stop killing civilians in the east but that would mean their $5 billion investment in regime change would go to waste. russia has invested heavily in diplomacy to de- escalate the conflict but the West refuse to negotiate. The only invasion the Russians have been guilty of is an humanitarian invasion of trucks to the stricken ethnic Russians been pounded on their doorstep.
All due respect James …. But that’s the greatest load of old shite I’ve read on this thread yet !! And that’s saying something ! Hysterical nonsense …
Well said
Well said James.
Well said karl
James, your post is so full of inaccuracies it’s quite frankly dizzying.
You list everything the west has said as lies despite the mountains of evidence to the contrary. You do realise the column you claim the west lied about was in fact confirmed by the Russian government right? Here’s a fantastic idea, why don’t you prove that everything you claimed is a lie is in fact a lie?
Also your comment about the $5 billion is simply wrong. That money was given to successive Ukrainian governments over 20 YEARS.
Crap james, tinfoil hat crap
Jason, Yes… dizzying to the ill-informed. The premise of my post is that you are being lied to (again). I am not pro Russian, anti EU or US, I am just sick of being lied to. I am sure that you would agree that its a fact the Iraq war was based on lies, the Syrian chemical attack was lies, NATO lied with the UN mandate to provide a humanitarian no fly zone over Libya which was abused and NATO attacked the Libyan Army. Do you not see a pattern here? are you realy going to accept the spin again to start another war? Victoria Nuland was caught on tape planning regime change with the US ambassador to Kiev, remember her “F*ck the EU” quote. I could go and get the speech that Nuland gave in December 2013 stating how exactly the 5 billion was spent and I could go into greater detail on my other points that I said were lies but hey , here is a fantastic idea for you. Why dont you go and get it yourself. I have taken the time to inform myself so why don’t you?
A lucid, intelligent and well thought out response their Stephen. I see I am up against it.
Well said James whelan
It’s the lies Jason , the god damn lies .. Propaganda machine that we see everyday. I never heard one post from you , sky news ( rag of a tv station ) or any other bs media that mentions the missing Russian journalist Andrew who was kidnapped by Ukraine forces , I tought kidnapping journalists was something only terrorists do .. Baa baa
@ Jason Culligan .. Most was given to NGO’s…. Exactly which column are you referring to ? Excuse me, but what you have considered evidence in the past is usually a photo, or third party hearsay.
The US should parachute a small army into Moscow, have it assemble in front of the Kremlin waving flags and deny they are there even in the face of incontrovertible evidence…
Just one question… is all this a propaganda exercise to get people in the West to hate Russians and Muslims (and vice versa) so the war machine can catapult us into a third world war? There’s an awful lot of sabre rattling going on!
Dorothy. All you need to do is ask yourself which foreign military have troops fighting in Eastern Ukraine at the moment and you will have your answer.
Well I don’t hate Russians or Muslims , Western media not working on me :)
Russian and Iranian Media is though Mitch.
If they’re not Russian troops then bomb them and see what happens
Not enough balls around to do it
@Karl here a bit of light reading for ya, from a former US Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration, send him a condescending note as well while your at it.
The Reagan admin !! You’re having a laugh now James… Is that the best you can come up with ? The Russians have invaded a sovereign country on the pretence that the poor locals are being victimised … It’s a land grab plain and simple ! The same shite they came out with when they invaded Crimea … Putin is sh@itting himself that Ukraine might actually want to be a democracy and control it’s own destiny , whereas all Putin wants is a load of puppet states around him that do as he says … Or else !! A modern day Stalin who is just as crazy as he was ! If you support such a nutcase then I truly feel sorry for you !
@Karl..Yes a former Secretary in the US government and editor of the Wall street journal saying you are being lied to
IS the best I can come up with. You on the other hand clearly have nothing, no knowledge of what is going and you are ignorant to both the facts on the ground and readily believe the tripe you are being fed and for that I truly feel sorry for you. Invasion, invasion , land grab ..now who is being hysterical?
So all the leaders of the western world are In some sort of giant conspiracy is that it james ? And Russian troops on ther “holidays ” are not in Ukraine .. And the ten Russian paratroopers captured inside Ukraine had just got ” lost ” …. Now who is deluded James ? You are a Putin mouthpiece that vomits propaganda, lies and deceit … Plain and simple … Conversation over !
Believe what you want Karl I’ve wasted enough of your time, im sure you have Fox news or the X – factor to watch
The biggest problem is that all sides are ‘bad’. Bolstered by western support, the Ukrainian government didn’t enter into negotiations with the separatists. The Ukrainian army is made up of private right wing militias funded by god knows who. Separatists supported by Russia. Ukrainian tv is owned by poroshenko and Russian dictated to by the Kremlin. Western media has been a joke. According to Ukraine interfax there are no journalists on the ground as it’s too dangerous. All we’re getting is hearsay and facebook posts.
Meanwhile people are being killed and refugees are fleeing mainly, as far as I can tell, into Russia
Hold on. The separatists have refused ever single offer to negotiate. Yesterday one of their leaders Alexey Mozgovoy said there would be no talks until the final victory.
Well said
Anne Marie you know Russia you’ve lived there. There may be no angels here but how many Americans have died in Ukraine? Who instigated a coup being caught red handed doing it in feb? Whose direct national security came under threat after the coup? Which country feels threatened by an illegal overthrow of a government on their doorstep and the new gov openly hates them? Are 20% of Ukraines population Americans including half the separatist oblasts? Which side had citizens burned alive for expressing their political views at Odessa? Which side has as it’s front men masked Nazis? Which side attacked the other?
Jesus your really stretching there John. Ukraine was a direct threat to Russia? How exactly?
I Posted this yesterday but I will post it here again for those that missed it.
Time-line of Terror
November 1998: 4 months after Putin takes over KGB/FSB, pro-democracy Kremlin critic Deputy Galina Starovitova is murdered
Aug 1999: Putin becomes Prime-Minister orders a massive bombing campaign against Chechnya. Massive civilian casualties. Poll Numbers drop.
Sept 1999: 94 people killed in Moscow apartment bombings. A week later 118 people killed in another bombing. FSB blame Chechen separatists. With little opposition left to war in Chechnya. Russian forces invade.
March 2000 -2002: Former KGB head becomes President. War in Chechnya escalates, with human right violations committed by Russian forces.
Russian Journalists investigating human right abuses in Chechnya begin to die. In 2000 alone, reporters Igor Domnikov, Sergey Novikov, Iskadar Khatloni, Sergey Ivanov and Adam Tepsurgayev are murdered in Moscow.
April 2003: Liberal Russian politician party co-chairman Sergei Yushenkov is gunned down at his home. Yushenkov had been investigating charges that the FSB were responsible for Moscow bombings as part of the ‘Kovalev Commission’.
May 2003: Putin’s popularity slides. Mikhail Khordorkovsky emerges as a strong opponent in next year’s Presidential election
July 2003: Another member of the ‘Kovalev Commission’ is poisoned and dies. Tests show that thallium is used (regularly used by Russian security forces). The commission’s lawyer is charged and jailed for espionage, after a trial held in secret. Another member is severely beaten.
As the presidential election cycle begins Khordorkovsky (client of Political Communications) is arrested and convicted for tax fraud and sent to Siberia.
March 2004: Putin wins 70% of the vote in a Presidential election
June 2004: Anti-racism and human rights activist Nikolai Girenko is shot dead.
July 2004: Paul Klebnikov, editor of Forbes (Russian edition) is shot dead. He had been investigating charges of corruption that went to the highest level of the Kremlin and FSB.
September 2004: Viktor Yushchenko – Pro-Western candidate for the presidency of Ukraine is poisoned by Dioxin. Pro-Russian candidate and former mob enforcer Yanukovich wins a much disputed election. There are widespread allegations of vote-rigging and other electoral fraud. Following peaceful demonstrations and intervention from the Ukrainian Supreme Court, a run-off is arranged and Yushchenko wins easily.
September 2006: First deputy chairman of Russia’s Central Bank is shot dead. He was investigating corruption linked to Kremlin and FSB.
September 2006: Anna Politkovskaya – author on human rights abuses in Chechnya and Russia is shot dead. She was the most prominent anti-Putin critic.
November 2006: Alexander Litvinenko, KGB defector, is poisoned with radioactive material after writing a book claiming Moscow bombings were a KGB plot to justify intervention in Chechnya.
March 2007: Daniel McGrory, Journalist with ‘The Times’ reports on developments in the Litvinenko case in a program for MSNBC. Five days before the broadcast, he dies at home. Causes unknown. Another contributor to the program, Georgian independence activist Paul Joyal is shot in London (in an apparently random street shooting) after returning home after having dinner with KGB defector Oleg Kalugin.
August 2008: During the Beijing Olympics Putin invades Georgia in a five day war, claiming the lives of ethnic Russians were at risk.
January 2009: Russian Human Rights attorney Stanslav Markelov is shot dead as he left a press conference. He was to sue the Russian state on behalf of his client murdered in Chechnya.
July 2009: Leading human rights journalist Natalia Estemirova is abducted, shot dead and dumped in a gutter. She had been continuing the work of Anna Politkovskya
December 2013: Peaceful protests in the Maidan square in Kiev (following the rejection of an EU trade agreement) are violently broken-up by Berkut riot police.
January 2014: Under pressure from Moscow, Ukrainian President Yanukovich enforces infamous ‘dictatorship laws’ that outlaw demonstrations. A few days later the first protesters are killed by police. Euromaidan activists are kidnapped, tortured and found dead. Dozens would die in the following month.
February 2014: President Yanukovich flees to Russia with billions in state following an impeachment vote in the Rada by democratically elected deputies (and refusal of the army to fire on protesters)
March 2014: A week later, armed ‘militants’ take over key government installations in Crimea. They are highly trained but wearing unmarked uniforms. Russia officially annexes Crimea, following sham of referendum. After initially denying Russian forces were in Crimea, it later admits there were in fact Russian forces in the region to ‘protect’ ethnic Russians.
Very succinct ,, lol
Regarding the shooting down of the maylasian airlines plane. I dont think we should accuses either side . But maybe consider who would benefit from a passenger airline being shoot down over separtists territory or maybe it was an accident who knows nobody does and i dont think we ll every find out .funny though how west media has proclaimed things true with very little fact based information .
Keep an open mind you say.
While inferring a western stitch up….
Sick of reading about this , will Putin just attack and be done with it .. Or is he a big chicken ?? It’s clear that the EU are provoking Russia into war… No better nation than Russia to fight a good war
The EU didn’t put a gun to Putin’s head and tell him to annex Crimea. They didn’t put a gun to his head and tell him to send weapons and soldiers to wage a fake rebellion.
Eh .. They kinda did Jason , when they announced Ukraine would join the EU , he just gave the same reaction the EU leader would give if the old Soviet Union was forming up again . He sees the EU as a threat , and he’s right
He’s playing a subtle game of brinkmanship gambling that the west had no stomach for a real fist fight with Russia and he’s right, that aint gonna happen. In the end it will all blow over and he will get the indirect control he really wants.
Some sort of ceasefire and contrived peace settlement will be arrived at where on the surfaceutin will seem to be the peacemaker but will be controlling behind the scenes
Putin that is
It may seem far away but experience of folks like Putin is that when they get away with it in one place, they repeat the experience elsewhere. So that’s why it’s important to punish him.
If Russia does attack Europe , what’s the chances of pro Russian or anti- EU groups popping up all over Europe & causing havoc ,
How are the EU provoking russia? ? Did covert EU actions in Crimea force putin to invade and annex it?
Rian .. Merkel was seen pushing Putin & taking he’s lunch money
Mitch. The Only Aggressor here is Putin’s Russia. It was them that began this conflict because the Ukrainian people stood up to Russian bullying and told Moscow to F*** Off.
Mick we are never gonna agree on this , I know yourself & Jason are doing your bit for Ukraine on this , I have no faith in the EU and I don’t trust the USA , actually I don’t trust them at all that I question the downing of the Malaysia airline , we know CIA are capable of doing something like this for their own perverted needs .
For someone that thinks ISIS is less a threat to civil society than international Banking you place your trust in some Strange people.
You Wrote on another Thread:
“Isis are scary & barbaric but not half as scary as the federal reserve , rockefellers & Goldman Sachs”
And I stand by that statement mick , did u ever wonder why Iraqi & Kurdish troops surrender so easy to isis?? Their generals surrender , but why mick :) even tho Kurdish army is much larger . Isis is the richest terrorist group in history , who supply’s them ?? Why did USA delay arming Iraqis even tho a contract was agreed , Iran ended up supplying them with weapons !! There’s a reason for everything mick .. Did u know CIA gets funding of 50 billion per year … Wow :)
Mick .. You are wrong … and your comment about the ‘Only aggressor’ is both naive and disturbing.
this conflict began with the US instigating regime change. An elected albeit unpopular government was ousted by a hijacked and legitimate popular protest. Nuland (true to her word) installed a Nazi anti Russian government whose first act was to ban the Russian language and enact numerous other anti-Russian laws. Of course the Russians did not like this but the Russian speaking people of the Donbass and Crimea voted to separate from the Ukraine because they could see what was coming next (remember the Donbass and Crimea are historically Russian handed over to Kiev by a drunken Soviet dictator) the response to the separatist vote by Kiev was to attack its own people so naturally they defended themselves. Although Russia accepted the vote in Crimea they refused to accept the Donbass request to join the Russian federation. The Donbass region then declared independence for which they were called terrorists and were shelled in their homes for the crime of defending themselves. Now , a few months later , the Separatists are winning and the Ukrainian Army is in full retreat hence all the crap about a Russian invasion. “Russian artillery units have invaded Ukraine” I mean , you really have to look (not to hard though) of the source here, Michael “aluminum tubes” Gordon (who, not surprisingly, co-authored pieces with infamous Judy Miller in the lead up to the Iraq War) from the NYT. This man is a proven liar. I urge you to look at the video link below which is a press conference to the western media by members of the Donetsk National Republic. It is very telling and informative about what is actually going on.
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ie/2014/08/watershed-press-conference-by-top.html
Mitch. You must not understand what the Story is. So Just for you.
ISIS have control of Oil fields and believe it or not are selling that Oil to the Syrian regime they also managed to capture the Iraqi reserve Bank that had several Billion in cash in its vaults. So combine their income from the Syrian regime and the Cash on hand from the bank and add to that all the equipment abandoned by the Iraqi army when they turned tail and ran away. The Kurds may have more men but until now had only access to leftovers from the Iraq war.
James. It is you that is naive. Russia has been constantly and persisting interfering in Ukraine since it gained independence. Even going so far as to poison Viktor Yushchenko because they wanted their puppet Yanokovich in charge.
So it’s as simple as that mick .. Good vs evil , light vs dark .. On the good side is the USA , EU , and the justice league , on the evil side is Russia , Iran , Syria , Isis and anyone else who stands up to the USA . Then behind the scenes is the CIA , the unsung heroes who is protecting earth :)
Mick, My naive charge is that you believe that Moscow is the only aggressor here when clearly they are not.
Mitch. At last the mask slips. Defending ISIS. You should change you’d flag to that of ISIS or Hamas they are one and the same anyway.
James. I don’t believe the EU or the US have invaded Ukraine. Nor have they so far given the Ukrainian Government any weapons. Russia has both given the terrorists weapons and sent troops into Ukraine. And don’t start with the coup BS. Yanokovich resigned just before the unanimous vote in the Parliament (by the Democratically Elected members) to impeach him for Criminal activities.
Well then you are indeed naive
Not afraid of his radiated bread….putin ur a nut!!! In a looser country
Does anybody get the feeling that America and the EU are sleep walking into a major war. Pump funds into opposition groups and suggest its democracy, Russia were always going to react and I can’t believe all those well educated advisors did not see that coming. Which begs the question why ? It really makes no sense.
have your say