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THE HSE HAS again reiterated that there has been a low level of Covid-19 transmission in schools with fewer than five asked to close due to outbreaks since their reopening.
Speaking at a HSE briefing earlier today public health consultant Dr Abigail Collins said 599 facilities – primary, post primary and special needs schools – have required a public health assessment and testing.
More than 15,000 students and teachers have been tested with 384 cases identified and an overall positivity rate of 2.5%. The majority of close contacts who are tested (86%) are students while 14% are staff.
Dr Collins said public health departments have identified around 70 schools in which they suspect there was transmission within the school. In most cases, she said a link is identified in the community.
“When we find and identify cases and we look at their close contacts we can find people in their families are asymptomatic or have other sources of infection,” she said.
The average number of onward cases where there is in-school transmission is three, but she said it is “very unusual” to have a higher number than that. Dr Collins said this was in contrast to the experience in other settings such as nursing homes where transmission can reach very high levels.
She said it is a “difficult judgement” to make whether a person picked up the infection in a school as the students and teachers are still “part of their communities”.
“If you know that there’s a friendship group for example who were socialising out of school how do you say it was because they were sitting at the desk together and how do you say it wasn’t because they were watching a movie together?
“It’s important to bear it in mind in that context, it’s not a black and white, it’s not ticking boxes.”
Fewer than five schools have been told to close due to Covid-19 cases among students and staff, she said.
The number of school-aged children who have tested positive for Covid-19 is “relatively stable”, increasing slightly from 14.5% of cases in August before the schools reopened to 15.6% of cases in October.
Dr Collins said the data collected by public health teams is “reassuring” and has shown “schools are safe places for our children to be”.
However she said as case positivity in the community has increased, the number of cases in the school settings has increased.
“We have to make sure that we don’t deny children the opportunity of their education, of the emotional and social development and wellbeing because it’s so important,” Dr Collins said.
“It is a real population level interdependence and if we can all do our bit in society that will keep our schools safe and open.”
Threat of industrial action
Today Taoiseach Micheál Martin said school will re-open on Monday as planned. His comments came after the Association of Secondary Teachers in Ireland (ASTI) voted to take industrial action unless the government addresses several issues related to Covid-19 in schools.
Among the issues teachers have raised include the redefining of close contacts in schools and the introducing a serial testing programme.
Teachers voted in favour of taking industrial action, up to and including strike action.
Martin said today that he “doesn’t detect that many teachers want to go down that route”.
“Many friends of mine are teachers, I keep in regular touch with them to get a sense of what it’s like, how they’re coping. They want to be in school, they really get the importance of it for the children’s development,” he said.
The Taoiseach acknowledged that the current environment for teachers is “challenging” and that Covid-19 has meant “a different type of learning” for teachers.
“It’s a different type of education, the classroom is a much different place for the children and for the teachers. And therefore it’s not easy, and I don’t underestimate the impact,” he said.
The Taoiseach also said that after this week’s mid-term break “school teams” will be established to see if there are specific areas that could be improved upon.
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There’s more. HSE redefining ‘close contact’ in school setting rendering it virtually impossible to ‘transmit virus within the school’. Deferent standards for schools and society. Convenient.
@Jonathan Regan: different*
@Jonathan Regan: yeah I’m finding this hard to believe – in my town there are 5 schools and 4 have had student pass to teacher that I’m
Aware of. In the next town over 3 schools and all have had reported student to teacher transmission and we aren’t in a county that was deemed high enough to go level 3 early
On the Wednesday 26th August there were 861 cases in the 0-4 & 5-14 age range combined. 861 cases had occurred from March to the end of August (7 months).
As of today there are now 4470 cases in those two age groups combined. That’s an increase of 3609 cases in less than 8 weeks. That’s a 419% increase in 8 weeks.
Individually 0-4 increased 347%
5-14 increased 456%
That’s the largest increase in any age bracket of people.
But yes tell
Me again how kids are not catching it.
@Jacqueline McMahon: eh not once anywhere have I read that kids are not catching it. This article is in fact telling you all about kids catching it. Perhaps you yourself could benefit from going back to school on Monday too?
@David Clements: well it’s said it’s virtually impossible to transmit in a school environment if you read the article
@Beer Belly 0476: thats not the same as saying kids can’t catch it
@Jacqueline McMahon: 100% agree with you. It’s bloody obvious that kids are spread it since they went back to school. I don’t really want to have to home school my kids again but if we were serious about getting numbers down we should close the schools.
@David Clements: I think the general idea is that kids are in school spreading the virus yet the schools remain open as if the kids don’t transmit. They do and the fact the schools will stay open promotes they idea that they don’t spread the virus.
@David Clements: Also, @Jacqueline McMahon’s comment never said kids don’t catch it.
@David Clements: if its saying it cant be transmitted in that environment it’s also true to say it cant be caught in that environment as its caught through transmission. Now what is special about school where 30 in a class room and 1200 in the corridors are less than 2 meters apart often less than one that this virus cant be caught but 6 or more in a house and it runs rampant?
Kids after school are the problem. Zero social distancing. I’m not a great supporter of teachers but in this case I feel sorry for them. They stick by the rules, the kids , once they leave the school , don’t. No brainier that the rise in numbers is helped by the schools. This is all like something out of Orwell. Black is white, kids transmitting COVID are not transmitting COVID. You’d despair.
@alan: “I’m not a big supporter of teachers” this is hands down one of the most cringe things I’ve ever read, and I’ve read sh!t from trump fans.
@The Guy is Here: I’m not sure why anyone is anti teacher.. But that guy is.
@alan: What on earth have you got against teachers?
It’s rampant in schools people have no idea. And now all the sanitisers have been recalled. What a shambles
@Jonnie Marre: I blame the saucer people
@Jonnie Marre: schools are rampant? Can you provide supporting evidence of that please? My kids schools have had 0 cases and the other 1 case. Hardly rampant!
@Colette Mullins: There more than two schools in the country.
@Colette Mullins: just look at independently collected data on cases and numbers of schools affected on the Facebook group “alerting parents of outbreaks in schools ireland”. Every single case uploaded there has been confirmed to the admins by a picture of an official letter, email or text the parent received. No wonder the HSE had to warn against using social media in relation to cases in schools, as they are hiding the real numbers. It’s scandalous, really. Almost half of all secondary schools in Ireland now have had cases, some up to 7 or 8 since the reopening.
@Lotta Rossler: yes because a Facebook page is so reliable
@Darren Sheridan: I am aware there are more than 2 schools in the country. However, I know of staff in 4 other schools who have had no cases, and i also know of others who have had 1 case. The claim was schools are rampant. All i am looking for is supporting evidence of that, and not a bloody Facebook page!
Personally I can’t see how it’s safe for teachers. I think the unaccounted community spread is coming from schools.We were in control of this until the schools opened. ( To be fair this was demanded by parents ) The secondary schools without doubt should a mixture of online learning in school. We had all Summer to sort the primary schools, FFG did nothing.
Am sure that positivity rate has nothing to do with refining the meaning of a close contact to artificially keep the numbers low.
Such a lie. Kids or teachers cant spread the disease. Its scientifically impossible. Keep the schools open.
@Lee Galiezitte:……what the…….
@Lee Galiezitte: what?
@Lee Galiezitte: sarcastic, dim or dishonest?
Omg what is going ON. Seriously, we’re being kept in the dark by so many beurocrats did I spell that right. But we’re not children. We can handle the truth. Very frustrating
Not too bad really. There’s thousands of schools in the country
@Mattress Dick: 45%+ of Secondary schools have had cases, but with ‘close contacts’ redefined specifically to exclude the school environment, plus high level of asymptomatic kids, and thus little testing (avg 20 per school with cases), transmission is necessarily ascribed to the household instead. It’s not dishonesty, but it is policy.
@Tordelback: its not dishonesty?
It would have been fine if they simply said: “You can’t have it both ways, it’s either home schooling or we have to shut down everything else and live with high numbers of cases for months”. But don’t claim that school transmission is negligible.
It would have been (barely) acceptable if they admitted “we lock down the country because there’s nothing else we are capable of doing”. But don’t blame it on the people, the overwhelming majority of which already did their part during the first lockdown.
That’s all we are asking.
Shocked. Shocked I tell you. Shocked is I.
(I mean it goes without saying but : sarcasm alert)
Blame the hand sanitizer. Great work from that brand.
Why all the outrage about the definition of close contacts? Schools provide a list of close contacts within the school to the HSE. Contact tracing is then carried out but the HSE.
If students are meeting and socialising outside school, they (the HSE) are supposed to contact these contacts too.
They are separate streams, but close contacts are still people who came into close contact with a person who tested positive for COVID-19.
@EvieXVI: the definition of a close contact is not the same in schools as everywhere else. The HSE don’t deem pupils/teachers close contacts. Students/teachers are not being contacted by the HSE. A colleague contacted them as she was a close contact, once they realised she was a teacher they referred her to a ‘supervisor’ and fobbed her off. I don’t think the public realise this.
@DM Ryan: I know that it varies but teachers are not necessarily close contacts. In my kids’ school (secondary) there has been one case. All children in the core class and those in options classes who sat close to that child were sent home for two weeks. As were the three teachers who had not maintained a social distance.
Outside of school, it really is up to parents of the child to ensure that other contacts are identified.
@DM Ryan: is this not the same as in other settings, such as healthcare? We’re told we’re not close contacts in a work situation as we’re wearing masks. In fact healthcare workers are told to turn off the covid app while at work.
@Waltzing Matilda: that’s my point- I don’t think it’s any different in schools thank elsewhere
@EvieXVI: healthcare workers and teachers have been told to turn off their apps are they are not considered close contacts. You are incorrect here. Teachers/healthcare workers are being treated differently. The HSE assume that as we are wearing masks we are safe. I know that a lot of my students wear the same, unwashed mask every day to school. And I constantly have to ask them to pull them up over their noses. I don’t think it’s correct to say that having spent 80 minutes in a room with 30 students that I am not a close contact of theirs?
@DM Ryan: not all healthcare workers and teachers have been told to turn off their Covid-19 app. I know people working in both sectors and none has ever been asked this. If someone is asked, they are entitled to say no. And no employer had the right to chew I anyway.
My point is that a close contact is defined as someone within 2 meters of a confirmed positive for more than 15 minutes. Whether this is in classroom or a shop or an office, it’s the same. So teachers are not defined as close contacts by default, but may be in some cases.
@DM Ryan: it makes no sense at all. Sure, people who are shopping in a supermarket are also wearing masks, and definitely are in close contact for a lot shorter than teacher and students in classrooms. Yet, if you meet someone with C19 in a supermarket, your app would probably alert, no?
@EvieXVI: can you please just do a bit of research. Teachers who are within 2m of a positive case are not considered close contacts by the HSE. Full stop.
@EvieXVI: the definition of a close contact in schools is actually different to what you’ve stated above. They redefined it – now if a child is in contact with a positive case for more than 15 consecutive minutes at a distance of less than 1m without a mask they can be considered a close contact. That is totally different to what you’ve stated above. They are basically only checking students who spent time with another student at lunch. The dept of education have been asked to clarify this but have yet to respond officially. This is why some teachers are not happy.
@DM Ryan: ‘close contacts will be determined by proximity and interaction with the index case; class placement; classroom structure; common travel; social networks and friendship groups etc. ‘
https://assets.gov.ie/86158/573fe99d-e847-4bb6-b865-456e5c03b7e4.pdf
As pointed out, this has been refined so now includes more, but proximity was always considered., and was within 2 meters.
@EvieXVI: that is from the 24th of August… there has been multiple revisions since then. The latest being what I posted above..
@EvieXVI: should have specified I’m taking about Post Primary schools
@Saorlaith: yes, this section is specific to post-primary schools.
I was replying to @DM Ryan and his claim that teachers aren’t considered close contacts. From the first iteration of this document, they have been, just not always. As is the case in any situation involving human interaction, it will vary for individuals.
@Lotta Rossler: The phones need to be in prolonged contact (through Bluetooth) for the apps to record and store a number. If you simply walk past someone or are on the other side of the aisle for no more than a few minutes, then the app won’t register the contact.
@EvieXVI: I don’t think you understand. It has been pointed out by a few people now. The HSE do not deem secondary school teachers (wearing masks) close contacts of students under any circumstances. I can’t make this any clearer for you. We are being fobbed off by contact tracers.
@EvieXVI: But if you look at how close contacts are now defined in schools it should be obvious that teachers aren’t really classed as close contacts. You wouldn’t have a situation where an unmasked child and teacher are having a conversation without masks for 15 consecutive minutes. Even if you teach a class of 30 for 80 minutes and have a child (who tests positive) less than 2 m from you not wearing a mask properly, the teacher will not be considered a close contact nor the children surrounding the positive child. It doesn’t fit the very narrow definition of a close contact in an education setting.
@DM Ryan: I can’t be any clearer – I don’t understand why this is happening. Because that’s not right, that’s not in the guidelines we have, and is not the experience I’ve had.
If you’re suggesting that contact tracers are making mistakes, I wholeheartedly agree.
The guidelines/rules/laws are being misinterpreted – true. But they do not say that a teacher is never deemed a close contact.
As a parent, an employee and a regular citizen, I know I have a right to question a ridiculous suggestion and refuse to be ‘fobbed off’ by someone who doesn’t understand the basics
@Saorlaith: the narrow setting has been – rightly – broadened. Again, my point is that this narrow setting was being applied to the general working population.
We all have a right to contact a GP and ask for a test.
@EvieXVI: The original point was that schools and the rest of workplaces have different definitions of close contacts. You disputed this. A 2 m distance for more than 15 minutes in other workplaces is still the accepted definition. The definition in schools is much more narrow. It hasn’t been broadened to my knowledge.
The HSE wouldn’t be able to cope with the amount of people being referred to contact tracing if the 2m rule was applied in schools. This is why they narrowed it. Kids and staff in schools and their families are suffering as a consequence.
@Saorlaith: except that they’ve actually narrowed it – to say 15 minutes, even with a mask – over the course of a day, not 15 consecutive minutes.
Narrowing, in this case, means including more, not fewer, contacts
And for healthcare staff, it is, and always has been, 1 meter.
@Waltzing Matilda: rubbish
@DM Ryan: nonsense
I saw a group of six or seven teenage girls in school uniform a few days ago. Two of them were sitting on top of a bottle bank with their legs stretched out as if they were at home on the couch. Impeccable hygiene.
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