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A STATE APOLOGY, redress and access to their birth information should be given to survivors of mother and baby homes, the Mother and Baby Homes Commission of Investigation has recommended.
The commission’s long-awaited final report – which can be read here – was published today.
The document, spanning 2,865 pages, details the experiences of women and children who lived in 14 mother and baby homes and four county homes – a sample of the overall number of homes – between 1922 and 1998.
It confirms that about 9,000 children died in the 18 homes under investigation – about 15% of all the children who were in the institutions.
The report notes: “In the years before 1960 mother and baby homes did not save the lives of ‘illegitimate’ children; in fact, they appear to have significantly reduced their prospects of survival. The very high mortality rates were known to local and national authorities at the time and were recorded in official publications.”
It also confirms that infant human remains were located during an excavation at Sean Ross home in Co Tipperary. These remains appear to have been buried in coffins, unlike the situation at Tuam in Co Galway where bodies were found in a chamber of a disused septic tank.
The Sean Ross Mother and Baby Home was in operation from 1931 to 1969 and operated under the care of the Order of the Sisters of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary.
The report states: “All individuals were less than one years old. The skeletal remains of 21 individuals were uncovered in situ. The remains of a further 11 coffins, indicating undisturbed burials, were evident.
“Four potential grave cuts were also identified and at least six individuals were identified through disarticulated skeletal remains. Therefore, the potential minimum number of possible individuals identified through the test-excavation was 42.
“Coffins or evidence of coffins were located with the majority of skeletal remains (84%). Burials appear to have some organisation, in terms of layout, and there appears also to be concentrations of interments in particular locations within the burial ground.”
Radiocarbon dating of 13 samples of skeletal remains provided estimated dates of death for those individuals in the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s and 1960s, the time of the operation of the mother and baby home in Sean Ross.
“There can be little doubt that they are the remains of children who died in Sean Ross,” the Commission’s report notes.
“Without complete excavation it is not possible to say conclusively that all of the children who died in Sean Ross are buried in the designated burial ground. The Commission does not consider that further investigation is warranted.”
While the Commission found a number of burials at the Sean Ross site “there is very little extra known to [it] about infant burials” at the mother and baby homes examined, it concludes.
‘Highest number in the world’
There were about 56,000 unmarried mothers and about 57,000 children in the mother and baby homes and county homes investigated by the Commission, the report notes. The greatest number of admissions was in the 1960s and early 1970s.
The Commission states that it is likely that there were a further 25,000 unmarried mothers and a larger number of children in the county homes which were not investigated; admissions to county homes were largely pre-1960.
“While mother and baby homes were not a peculiarly Irish phenomenon, the proportion of Irish unmarried mothers who were admitted to mother and baby homes or county homes in the twentieth century was probably the highest in the world.”
The women who were admitted to mother and baby homes ranged in age from 12 years old to women in their 40s. However, 80% were aged between 18 and 29 years and this was “remarkably consistent across the larger mother and baby homes”.
Recommendations and redress
In terms of redress, the report notes that redress “can be financial or can be in the form of enhanced services”.
The Commission considers that “services such as counselling and enhanced medical cards should be made available to those former residents who need them”.
“It also wishes to make clear that many, probably most, former residents are managing their lives very well and it should not be assumed that they are in need of dedicated State support. A number of former residents have also expressed the view that an apology would be appropriate.”
Taoiseach Micheál Martin is expected to deliver a State apology in the Dáil tomorrow.
The Commission states that any decision on financial redress is “a matter for government”.
The Commission “recognises that it is not possible to provide financial redress for all the wrongs that occurred in the past (or, indeed, that are currently occurring)”.
“It is arguable, for example, that unmarried mothers, who were not in mother and baby homes and who reared their children without any financial assistance from the State, have as good a case for redress as unmarried mothers who were in mother and baby homes paid for by the State.”
The report notes that the State has previously paid out compensation to the survivors of industrial institutions and Magdalene Laundries.
“The State does have an obligation not to discriminate between people in similar situations. Financial redress has been awarded in the past to a number of groups. If redress is being considered for former residents of mother and baby homes, the relevant comparable redress schemes are the Residential Institutions Redress Scheme (RIRS) (for the children) and the Magdalen laundries scheme (for the mothers),” the report states.
Information and tracing
Records examined by the Commission show that between 1922 and 1998, 1,638 children who were resident in mother and baby homes and the four county homes under investigation were placed for foreign adoption.
The vast majority, 1,427, were placed for adoption to the United States.
A Passport Office record was found for 1,266 of the children placed for foreign adoption. A passport would not have been needed in respect of the 188 children who went to the UK.
A Passport Office record was found for an additional 265 children who were in the institutions but were not recorded as placed for adoption.
The report notes that private adoption placements were not illegal in Ireland until the late 1990s but such practices “facilitated illegal registrations of birth”. In many cases, a person’s adopted parents were listed as their birth parents on the cert.
The Commission states that adopted people should have the right to access their birth certificates and associated birth information. If needed, a referendum on this should take place, the report notes.
“There should be such a right even though it is acutely conscious of the concerns expressed by some birth mothers about this.
“If, as seems likely, a referendum is required to allow for the necessary legislation, then one should be held.”
The report states: “A person’s right to his or her identity is an important human right and should only be denied in very exceptional circumstances. Medical information and adoption records compiled at the time of the adoption should also be available.
“A mechanism could be put in place to allow a birth mother to argue that her privacy rights are being eroded. This could be done through in-camera proceedings in the Circuit Court.
“Both the birth parent(s) and the adopted person should have the right to legal representation and legal aid should be provided for all parties if required.
“The Commission also considers that there should be a central repository of the records of institutions and adoption societies so that information can be obtained from one place.
“The Commission’s database of individuals compiled from the institutional records of the various institutions could be expanded by adding further records to it – see below for further recommendations on records.”
Criticism of Tusla
The report notes that many of the former residents who came to the Commission were “very critical of the information and tracing arrangements in place”.
“There has been quite vitriolic criticism of the Child and Family Agency (Tusla) and its approach to providing information to adopted people. This criticism is unfair and misplaced. Tusla is implementing the law and has no choice about doing so. The problem is not with Tusla; it is with the law.”
The report notes that, under current legislation, adopted people do not have a right to access their original birth certificate nor do they have the right to access information on their families of origin.
“It is clear to the Commission that many adopted people think there is considerably more information about them in institutional and other records than is actually the case. Having examined the available records closely, the Commission knows that the information is very limited in most cases.
“The quantity and quality of the available information is not, of course, relevant to the issue of whether or not there should be a right of access.”
The Commission states it “is aware that this matter has been under consideration by a succession of governments since the 1990s” and “attempts to legislate for this right have, so far, failed”.
The Commission understands that the Attorney General has advised that it was constitutionally unacceptable to allow unrestricted access to birth information for adopted people. The current government and Minister O’Gorman have committed to introducing such legislation,” the report notes.
Such legislation is expected to be debated in the Oireachtas this year.
Burial issues
As was previously flagged by the Commission in its interim reports, it encountered “major issues” in relation to burials at homes in Bessborough in Cork and Tuam in Galway, and a lack of relevant documents.
More than 900 children died in Bessborough or in hospital after being transferred from the home in question.
Despite “very extensive inquiries and searches”, the Commission has been able to establish the burial place of only 64 children.
The burial places of more than 800 babies and children who died while they were residents of Bessborough are therefore unknown, with the Commission concluding that it is likely some of them were buried in unmarked graves.
The Commission considers it “highly likely” that some of these children were buried on the campus, which at one stage extended over 200 acres. However, it does not believe they were buried on the site where planning permission was recently submitted for an apartment complex.
“The Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary who owned and ran Bessborough do not know where the other children are buried.
“The burials of children who died in the three Sacred Heart Homes (Bessborough, Castlepollard and Sean Ross) are not recorded at all. More importantly, there is no certainty about where they are buried,” the Commission previously noted.
In the final report, the Commission says it “remains perplexed and concerned at the inability of any member of the Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary to identify the burial place of the children who died in Bessborough”.
The report notes that although the number of infant deaths recorded in Bessborough during the 1920s was relatively low, mortality rates were relatively high.
“For instance, the 16 deaths among infants born in 1926 represented an infant mortality rate of almost 46%. The infant mortality rate decreased to 13.6% in 1930 but increased incrementally from 1931.
“Infant mortality peaked in 1943 at 75.19%: for every 100 babies born in, or admitted to, Bessborough that year, 75 subsequently died in infancy. Infant mortality rates fell to just over 12% in 1946 and continued a downward trend.
“By 1952 the infant mortality rate stood at 2.15%. In the years 1958-60 infant mortality increased to around 10%: representing nine deaths on average in these years. The mortality rate decreased to around 2% in 1961 and remained in this low range until the closure of the home in 1998.”
Information relating to the age on death was available for 899 children.
Over 96% died in infancy as follows: 13.68% died in the perinatal period (0-7 days); 8.79% died in the neonatal period (8-28 days) and 73.86% died aged 29-365 days. The remaining 3.67% died in childhood aged between 366 days and five years.
Tuam
The Commission was set up following claims that up to 800 babies were interred in an unmarked mass grave at a former Bon Secours home in Tuam, Co Galway – following on from extensive research carried out by amateur historian Catherine Corless.
Excavations carried out between November 2016 and February 2017 found a significant quantity of human remains, aged from 35 foetal weeks to two to three years, interred in a vault on the site.
The Commission identified 978 child deaths associated with the Tuam home, including those which occurred when the home was located in Glenamaddy.
Child deaths include children who died in the Tuam home, children who were admitted to Tuam and died elsewhere (generally children transferred to the Central Hospital, Galway) and children who were never admitted to the Tuam home, but whose mothers were resident there prior to giving birth (generally after transfer to the Central Hospital, Galway).
The Commission located GRO death records for 972 children (99.4% of child deaths).
Most child deaths recorded in Tuam occurred before 1950; 92.6% of deaths occurred between 1921-50. Child deaths spiked in 1926 (41 deaths) and in 1936 (51 deaths).
The worst period, however, was from 1942-47 – 305 child deaths, almost one in three of all child deaths recorded in Tuam occurred over those six years.
The available records show that 79% of deaths occurred among ‘illegitimate’ children and 11% occurred among ‘legitimate’ children – status at birth could not be established in relation to the remaining 10% of child deaths.
Analysis by decade shows that more child deaths (43.5%) occurred in the 1940s than any other decade followed by the 1930s (29.2%); 1920s (18.1%); 1950s (9%) and 1960 (0.2%).
The Commission established that the memorial garden on the site of the former Tuam home contains human remains which date from the period of the home’s operation and considers it likely that a large number of the children who died in the Tuam home are buried there.
Evidence of physical but not sexual abuse
In terms of abuse, the report states that the commission did not hear “any evidence of sexual abuse of child residents”, but did hear “some evidence of physical abuse which, while unacceptable, was minor in comparison to the evidence of physical abuse documented in the Ryan Report”.
“There is evidence of emotional abuse; however, it would appear that the abuse suffered by, for example, former Tuam child residents, came, at least as much if not more, from local residents and other school going children as from the institution itself.
“The major abuse suffered by former Tuam child residents came when boarded out,” the report states.
Social history
The report also discusses the social history of the homes and notes: “The story of mother and baby homes in Ireland is complex.”
“The Commission’s Terms of Reference cover the period 1922 – 1998, a span of 76 years. There was great change in that period: massive improvements in living conditions and changes in attitudes to religion and morals.
“The experience of women and children in the 1920s was vastly different from the experience in the 1990s regardless of where they lived.”
The report notes that Ireland was “a cold harsh environment for many, probably the majority, of its residents during the earlier half of the period under remit”.
It was especially cold and harsh for women. All women suffered serious discrimination. Women who gave birth outside marriage were subject to particularly harsh treatment. Responsibility for that harsh treatment rests mainly with the fathers of their children and their own immediate families.
“It was supported by, contributed to, and condoned by, the institutions of the State and the Churches. However, it must be acknowledged that the institutions under investigation provided a refuge – a harsh refuge in some cases – when the families provided no refuge at all.”
The report notes that improvements in society generally and in the institutions “came gradually”.
“Significant changes included the introduction of free post-primary education in the 1960s and the changes consequent on membership of the then EEC from 1973. 1973 also saw the introduction of the Unmarried Mother’s Allowance; this was the first time a direct State payment was available to assist an unmarried woman to rear her child in the community.”
Underage girls
Some 5,616 residents, 11.4% of the total for whom information about their age is available, were under 18. The Commission did not see evidence that the gardaí were routinely notified about pregnancies in girls.
The number of admissions among women under 18 rose sharply in the early 1960s and it remained at a high level for the next two decades.
While Pelletstown, followed by Bessborough, accounted for the largest number of admissions of women under 18 years of age, Dunboyne was the mother and baby home with the highest proportion of women under 18 years – 23.4% of total admissions.
The report notes that “some pregnancies were the result of rape; some women had mental health problems, some had an intellectual disability”.
However, the majority were indistinguishable from most Irish women of their time. The only difference between the women in mother and baby homes and their sisters, classmates and work companions was that they became pregnant while unmarried. Their lives were blighted by pregnancy outside marriage, and the responses of the father of their child, their immediate families and the wider community.
The Commission states that there is “no evidence that women were forced to enter mother and baby homes by the church or State authorities”.
“Most women had no alternative. Many pregnant single women contacted the Department of Local Government and Public Health (DLGPH), later the Department of Health, their local health authority, or a Catholic charity seeking assistance because they had nowhere to go and no money.
“Women were brought to mother and baby homes by their parents or other family members without being consulted as to their destination,” the report notes.
Women were generally admitted to mother and baby homes and county homes because “they failed to secure the support of their family and the father of their child”.
“They were forced to leave home, and seek a place where they could stay without having to pay. Many were destitute. Women who feared the consequences of their pregnancy becoming known to their family and neighbours entered mother and baby homes to protect their privacy. Some travelled to Britain, for the same reason.”
Government reaction
Speaking about the report, Minister O’Gorman said: “The publication of the Commission’s report is a landmark moment for the Irish State.
“The Commission’s investigation reveals the truth of what happened, within the walls of Mother and Baby Homes and beyond them, to many thousands of women and children. Importantly, it also inscribes for posterity, those journeys, those heartbreaks, those truths in the words of those who experienced them first-hand.
“The report makes clear that for decades, Ireland had a stifling, oppressive and brutally misogynistic culture, where a pervasive stigmatisation of unmarried mothers and their children robbed those individuals of their agency and sometimes their future.
“Publication of the Commission’s report is an expression of truth. For decades, Irish society was defined by its silence, and, in that, its complicity in what was done to some of our most vulnerable citizens. With its publication, we are affirming that their stories and their truth, will be heard, acknowledged and understood.”
Over the weeks and months ahead, the Government said it “will give very careful and detailed consideration to the report”.
It will do so with a view to developing a comprehensive Government Action Plan spanning eight themes, as follows:
Counselling supports have also been put in place for survivors.
The National Counselling Service will provide therapy for survivors, either face-to-face, by telephone or online through secure video. Former residents may arrange counselling sessions by direct self-referral or by written referrals from health care professionals such as GPs.
An out-of-hours service, Connect Counselling, is also available to provide support and is currently providing an enhanced service from 6pm to 10pm seven days a week.
More information on the services can be read here.
We’ll be covering what’s in the final report today – on the site and on Twitter (follow @orlaryan and @conalthomas for updates). If you or a relative spent time in a mother and baby home or county home and would like to share your experience, please email orla@thejournal.ie or conal@thejournal.ie.
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Time for the CAB to start grabbing some serious assist…if they can do it for selling cannabis they can do it for selling stolen babies…….
@David cotter: Absoluely. And there’s more to it than that. All church property should be seized and sold back to communities for rock bottom prices. There are empty schools and parish halls all over the country in communities with no facilities. The money should be used to compensate any and all victims of the church. It’s the only punishment they understand seeing as they can all absolve eachother of sin.
@Deirdre McDonnell: I agree… There is a lot of hypocrisy in this country. Kids get christened to get into schools. They do their communion and confirmation as a cultural thing. But anyone who does this is explicitly supporting this institution that has brought nothing but pain, judgement and shame on the Irish people
@Elaine Phelan: Take back control of the Schools.
@David cotter: If the Guards don’t investigate, nothing has changed.
@Colm Beck: investigate who? I would guess they r all dead. Yet more waste of time and money.
@Colm Beck: the guards were part of the problem at the time.
@Elaine Phelan: Most people I know who do this do it to help get their child into school.
@Jim Lingk: they made a packet washing linens for hotels, with free labour
@Martin Glynn: Dig them up. Put them in a mass grave marked murderers. They never deserved a Christian burial.
@Jim Lingk: still hypocritical. There are educate together schools
@Elaine Phelan: yes. All heavily over-subscribed, leaving people with no choice but to subscribe to the system. Try it as an execise, try to register a child in an educate togerher school near you, then realise your options. Even request the forms, check out the section where you need a stamp from the given parish. Not a member of a church? Very best of luck to you.
A twisted sectarian system.
If God is almighty and powerful…why does it care if we believe in it or not?….A God that decides to punish you for not believing in it sounds like an entity with serious self-esteem issues.
Appalling what the church done in this country.
@Billy Big Baws: don’t be too quick to equate God with the Catholic Church. Nothing godly or Christian about them.
@Billy Big Baws: God is a word. Not a being.
@Billy Big Baws: God (or whatever you wanna call it) lives in every living creature in the universe, knowing and honoring God is a way to connect to everything!
Don’t let organised religion ruin your view on this, God is good.
@Dylan Byrne: When I say God I mean the divine spark, that lil bitta magic that keeps things running, you know? Who’s to say that has an ego at all, and could even perceive things as we do. Either way, do right by God and you’re doing right by yourself.
@Dylan Byrne: you mean the same god that killed 25 million according to the bible?
@Paul Furey: There have been approx 110 Billion Homo Sapiens that have lived and died on this planet so far. Yeah, that God. Alot of stuff has happened Paul
@Dylan Byrne: Stop preaching nonsense! God my a&€e! Do good and be a nice good person. That’s all you need to be and stop believing in fairy tails!
@Deirdre McDonnell: Be good and be a nice person, that’s the main point really. Rather or not you believe in the Divine, it still exists. Your problem is with Creepy Weirdos and their Creepy Weirdo Cult, don’t bring God into it,, he’s on your side even if his ‘humble disciples’ aren’t
Catholicism has ruined this country, its really the wrong framework to view this whole thing through
@Dylan Byrne: Prove to me “the Devine” exits and I’ll debate with you, unfortunately I only understand logic and what I can actually see! Your theory lacks evidence unfortunately. Evidence isn’t a bible it’s a story no different from any other fairytale!
@Dylan Byrne: I have no doubt you are the type of person who for example was in a car crash or needed immediate medical help and you would thank god for “saving “ you and ignore medical staff!
@Dylan Byrne: I’m not part of some unfamiliar religion, I only call it God because its shorthand for something that’d take me ages to describe in the comment section of Journal.ie lol
God is the light in a person’s eyes, its how an acorn knows how to grow into a tree, it’s the urge you get to talk to someone right as they need you. You know what I’m talking about, it’s THAT thing.
Don’t let organised religions and the corrupt pedophiles running the.paint your view on this, you’ll do yourself a disservice
@Deirdre McDonnell: I can see how you’d think that, but really not an accurate description at all. Ive always been an atheist and scientifically minded, it’s quantum mechanics that got me interested in religion.
@Dylan Byrne: You call yourself atheist yet go on about god? And an acorn grows? Nature. All can be explained with logic and science.
@Deirdre McDonnell: Reading comprehension exercises are free and available online if you ever wanna brush up
@Dylan Byrne: brush up on my religion? No thanks. I’d rather go on a date with Daniel O’Donnell!
@Deirdre McDonnell:??? ok
@Deirdre McDonnell: And what are you doing….. Preaching!!!! believe it or not… You can do good, be a good person and and believe that it comes from “God”. Believe what you want but let others do the same!!!
@Dylan Byrne: Any of those mushrooms going spare mate?
@Dylan Byrne: “God is good”? You mean the same god who in the Old Testament commanded genocide?
@Pat Conway: Im so sad this awful religion has sanded down out every bit of receptiveness to spirituality in this country.
But also, if you’d have read my comments you’d see Im not really talking about Thee Biblical Canonical God, but go off sis
@Dylan Byrne: The bible is a work of fiction, and badly written fiction, at that. Jesus teaches forgiveness and to be non judgmental, but god is all about the judgement. Who documented Jesus being tested by Satan in the desert? was it the gospel according to some apostle who wasnt even there at the time? written in a book over a century after Jesus and apostles lived and died? why did god kill people in a big flood, why did Jesus turn water into wine so everyone could get wasted and have an excellent time? WHERE has god and jesus been in the last 2000 years? ill tell you where, in peoples inherited imagination, passed down from generation to generation, the worlds biggest lie: GOD.
@Pat Conway: he means pantheism.
@Dylan Byrne: Why wasn’t he on the sides of the children who were murdered and abused by “his disciples ” was he too busy catching up on Netflix??
The “fathers “ of these children were ignored ..none of them had to pay for their sins. What a surprise there ! Men were encouraged to “sow their wild oats”. Not much has changed in that respect!
@Philomena Keegan: Yeah. Men never had any problems with the church.
@Philomena Keegan: what a misanthropic statement to make.
How many young chaps 17, 18, 19 who were fathers but were restricted in doing anything about this.
Their lives destroyed too.
@Daniel Dunne: Exactly not all men or actually boys got any chance to have a say. Unless you are of the era of the 50′s you won’t understand. Dont get me wrong a lot walked away with no remorse but a lot had no option. A lot were shipped of to the distant relative in England or America without any say in the matter.
@Philomena Keegan: the parents and families of the girls were the ones that sent them in under sham, the boys and men had no say in the process of family, unless married. Sham on the parents of those girls and women.
@Galwaygogo: No that is completely wrong. Some may have but it was a very small minority. Majority of people back then were terrified of the church. The full blame lies at the feet of the Catholic church and the government(s) that enabled them. As I said before the poor lived in fear of them, the wealthy in fear of the scandal.
@Philomena Keegan: By the way its not that very long ago if a mother died in childbirth or leaving a young family the nuns would turn up at the door pressuring fathers to hand them over. They believed a father couldn’t raise them. A lot had to fight tooth and nail to keep them against church and Government. This would happen within days of the death!! The catalogue of crimes at the door of the church is beyond horrendous.
@Franny Ando: Absolutely. The families were brainwashed, they thought their daughters were going to hell. The Chrirch and government are the only ones to blame here. Society was indoctrinated.
Church and state. .. don’t let them form the narrative that we are all responsible. We were an oppressed people delivered into the hands of a second more insidious oppressor. What ef were we meant to do when every institution was against us.
@Hup Abù: not protect the men and boys and shun the girls and women who were sometimes raped? Not treat innocent children as outcasts? No church or state forced anybody to do that.
@Hup Abù: shocking events from our past. I wonder in 30 years time will we be reading another scandalous report about Direct Provision? Foreign adoptions?
This weeks report is of little benefit if we don’t use it to reflect on our current attitudes.
@Ger Murphy: Think of this Scenario; I’m minding some children, because neighbors trust me, but some go missing; never seen again, no inquiries, but I keep getting children to mind. Rumors abound, The Babies are Buried in the backyard, still no inquiries , but I’m still receiving children. 50 or 60 years on, some Bones are found in my back garden, when asked about these, I say; I don’t know as I kept no records, or I must have misplaced the records. Do you think the Police would view me as suspect in the disappearance of those children who were never found. The Bones came to the surface seeking Justice, crying out for the, 900 Buried in the Septic Tank, any one charged. To date, Approx 9,000 are missing, Children unaccounted for and no Arrests.
@Ger Murphy: More apologies to come. Housing! Not the control influence of the Church this time but Bank/Developer and their Political Party friends.
@EillieEs: I think you’ll find the that one of the main findings of this whole report is that it was enforced by church and state through fear and shame
It’s just incredibly tragic and so wrong that anyone was treated like this. Imprisoned and separated from their own children. It’s beyond cruel.
What repercussions are there for those who were involved? I imagine some are still alive. Will there be criminal proceedings?
it was the way thing were done in those days. the church was the be-all and the end
-all. Ireland was an ex colonised country. it had just established its freedom from Britain. and the catholic church took advantage of that, so Charles McQuaid and Develara draughted a constitution. for the future republic of Ireland. and the country would become priest-ridden. whatever a priest said was the gospel in my school days. i was not taught history in a balanced way i was radicalised to hate the brits.I took it with a grain of salt. but it took a long time for the Irish to wake up to their infatuation with the church. Ireland was, so engrossed in history and religion. that most families had a priest in the in the circle. if you didn’t play hurling, or vote ff. you may as well go off to England.
@James Coll: absolutely. DeValera
Said something along the lines of ‘I’m a Catholic first and an Irishman second’ when In government. Never boded well for our constitution
@maevekearney:
Hi Maeve,
just to clarify, that quote is by Brendan Corish, TD for Wexford and leader of The Labour Party
@maevekearney: That quote was made by the leader of the Labour party, Stand open to correction but think it was Norton…A Catholic first, An Irishman second, A socialist third….Says it all.
@maevekearney: Same Constitution now making children homeless … more apologies in years to come. https://www.change.org/p/irish-referendum-on-family-home-special-status
@Donal Desmond: it was John A Costello who said this in 1948 on becoming Taoiseach and offering his republican govrrnmemts loyalty to Rome.
It really makes my blood boil when I hear the leaders of our nation say that they cannot oblige or force the church to pay compensation or that we, as a society, are all guilty for years of abuse that went on in the mother and baby homes.
Over the years, governments have brought in taxes and laws many of which, such as the motor tax, inheritance tax, TV licence, etc… which most people did not agree with or did not want them, but yet they were still imposed on the people of the nation. If one broke the law, the offender in most cases was fined or given some kind of sentence. Now we hear that nothing can be done to those that terrorised those poor women and children and that the nation is powerless to seek compensation from the church.
Listening to the Taoiseach last night putting the blame on Society and saying that society as a whole failed the women and children added up to collective guilt and punishment. The brutality and suffering, for the most part, were inflicted by the church. Be it the priests, nuns, brothers but it was still the church who ultimately had physical control over the poor victims. The government, whose job is to protect the people of the nation by enforcing or bringing in the laws to protect its citizens failed to do their job and, in most cases, ignored the plight of the victims and in many cases were probably complicit in the treatment of the victims.
To blame society as a whole (meaning the citizens of the country) is ignoring the fact that the nation was ruled by the church and the politicians that the masses had no actual control over what was being done in their name, and one dared not speak out bout either the church or the politics of the land because they would be punished by both the church and the laws of the land that were brought in the same politicians that they had elected. Many of whom were taking the best interests of the clergy and themselves ahead of the poor citizens who had voted them in.
To blame society as a whole for what occurred in the homes is also to blame the families and the actual victims as well. Rules concerning children that were born outside of marriage were not brought in by the society as a whole but rather by a small group of people supposedly acting in God’s name and under the noses of the people (the politicians and the judiciary) who were voted in to protect them in the first place.
To hear that we cannot force the church to participate in the compensation just seems wrong. If the government decides to only use public funds to compensate the victims, they are using funds that the victims too contributed to via the taxes that they have paid to the State, the same State that failed them and is the same State that is once again not fulfilling its responsibility by not going after the perpetrators of this horrific treatment of the poor women and children.
The notion of God is a convenient scapegoat for the actions or inactions of people, the biggest problem was that some nuns, priests, bishops and others chose to do evil and hundreds of thousands of others hadn’t the courage to do good
@Moss Cotter: The; One good one stayed Silent is; Guilty by Association.
So Mr Martin it’s society’s fault??And who’s to blame for society? Answer Church and State.All you are doing now is upsetting people who have suffered for decades.You yourself are not that far detached from FF politicians who were in charge in the sixties for example Brian Lenihan Minister for Justice 1964 to 1969 from Castleknock I was born a mile away from there in 1965 in St Patrick’s Navan Road and his government did nothing about what was going on
Two disasters within the one week I don’t think you’ll last much longer.
@Tom’s: I think that’s the point he was making though. If we simply blame the Church, full-stop, then local government, national government, health services, police and judicial, are all exonerated yet we know they were all complicit. It would be absolutely wrong to let these other groups off the hook.
If you support the church by going to mass and donating. You support the crime’s they’ve committed.
Church should have all it’s asset’s taken off them.
@TheKloppKop: Any one supporting the Roman Church or any, are Guilty by Association.
@TheKloppKop: I think that’s a bit like saying if you contribute to today’s German army Xmas fund then you support Nazi’ism. It’s clear to all that the remnants of the Church in Ireland today is a far cry from the institution that was charged with the running of these homes because the state was incapable. I wouldn’t be in favour of stripping all assets from today’s Church. Certainly assets should be sold to pay compensation but local churches for those who practice a faith should remain. Atheist Ireland would prefer to burn them all down obviously but faith is an important lifeline for a lot of our people.
Don’t worry people, this will be forgotten about and we will be back to being fed the latest about trump & his social media status very soon.
@Full Circle: won’t be forgotten by mother’s of dead or stolen babies my friend……
Unfortunately we are still a major god fearing country. After what the Catholic Church has got away with in the past in this country and still gets away with on a daily basis, It proves that this country will always have a semblance of fear of “god” in Ireland .
@conex: speak for yourself.
@conex: what does it get away with today? I don’t think this nation is God fearing anymore. The church is there for those who want it. For those who don’t, walk on. Most people walk on.
@GrumpyAulFella: They still gave a hold. You can’t marry in church without their mandated marriage course. You can’t get a child christened without a parenting course!! Most if which are done to get a child into school. Church should be removed and disassociated from all schools.
@Franny Ando: Have
@Franny Ando: yeah but I guess if you’re getting married in a church in the first place and having a child baptised then you’re buying into the church in the first place. It’s as much about tradition and culture in Ireland than religious faith.
@GrumpyAulFella: The christening is for the schools. Because unfortunately a lot of small village and town schools are still under Catholic church control.
Some people asking about my mother’s documentary today…she mentioned babies at Goldenbridge in 1950s and 1960s …ifiplayer.ie/dear-daughter
@Buckley Cli: RTÉ or Virgin Media should broadcast it tomorrow. Great documentary.
IMHO – time for a legal and formal separation of the church/state relationship. Remove all religious references from the Constitution especially the opening prayer. Preserve and ensure religious freedom. In the case of schools having a Catholic “ethos” this connection should end. Time for the Catholic Church in Ireland to stand on it’s own two feet and become an independent institution. Non- Christian religions have zero connection to the state and survive, time for the Catholic Church to do the same.
@J Flood: hear hear
This makes me so angry and I was not in any way affected by it. I can’t imagine how those children or mothers are feeling now.
Personally I don’t believe an apology, from the Church or Government is going to be enough. Don’t be surprised if some victims take the law into their own hands….and I wouldn’t blame them.
The route forward is very simple. Seperate Church and State in the Constitution. Also from all Healthcare and Education. Make the Catholic Church compensate all the victims from it’s own assets.
@Nomis Andrews: this. 100%
And yet some people miss the good old days of Holy Catholic Ireland…
Devils Island.
Important to note: we weren’t god fearing, we were church fearing. It wasn’t the great of brimstone and fire, but the genuine, constant threat that we would be shamed publicly, and or families and friends would have to take sides of the church didn’t like you. From birth in a church hospital, to a church run school, to a church oath in court, they were always there.
@James Ward: Proof Of Repentance is need by these Church people, as the saying goes, ‘Put your money where your mouth is’, ArkBishop, Bishops, Priest, Nuns, Sell your multimillion Euros Property’s made on the Graves of 9,000 plus dead Babies. Ireland will never forget what was done to; Little Children by this Church. A church that should have; Stood for what is Right, closed its eyes, blinded by Riches, blinded to the; Suffering of Little children. And now, the NUNS ( Huns) hiding away somewhere waiting for their Press release to be verified by; Head NUN and her ArkBishop.
Enough already,its clear multiple crimes have been committed,follow the usual procedure in such a scenario,investigate and prosecute.
The people who went through these homes are angry. Personally I think it’s a tragedy that people are still this angry a lifetime later. In all honesty they cannot have any memory of the homes and are angry about circumstances, injustice or what they think happened.
I read Catherine Corless pamphlet, it’s very short. As a piece of historical research I thought it was appalling. It made sweeping statements and stoked up this whole dumped baby idea which can’t be helpful to people born there.
There was no effort whatsoever to contextualise the situation in the TUAM home with wider society at the time, nor reference the very high infant and child mortality rates, nor correlate high death rates on specific years with measles outbreaks, which would have been as dangerous as Covid in a nursing home with no treatment.
Ireland was a religious, intolerant, pious, vengeful, shameful and unkind place half a century ago.
The public health act of 1947 was the beginning of bringing down infant mortality, free secondary education didn’t arrive for another twenty years and a social safety net for ‘unmarried mothers’ until 1971.
We should all be ashamed of this past, and not try to blame it on dead nuns. Maybe then we could learn something from it, besides indulging in blame and indignation.
@Gerard Carthy: dumped baby idea!!!are you for real?context!!!are you for real???
@Michael Creagh: Yeah As real as the mass grave for still born and indigent infants inside the gates of Glasnevin. Or Mount Jerome. Or the back garden of the Coombe Hospital.
It was completely standard until relatively recently.
@Gerard Carthy: Crawl back under your stone. Your ignor-ant comment has no valid merit whatsoever. It was the likes of people like you that were the problem. Unfortunately after reading that dis-gusting diatribe they still exist.
@Gerard Carthy: Wow. Just wow. WHAT do you know about it? You are actually claiming that the people who have been through this are what, overreacting? These babies had no bonding with their mothers, during very formative years in their lives. They could have been killed, they were lucky to survive at all! How can you even dispute the fact that so many bodies were found, dumped liked waste? F the nuns responsible.
@Gerard Carthy: I have never read anything more patronising in my life than your comment void of empathy. you must be an 3vil man. probably the kind that would have taken part in the stigmatisation of “fallen women” and felt justified in his judgement. I feel like i need a shower after reading your comment.
Back then we lived in a patriarchal society. Politicians, nearly all men, cowered before the church, which was all men, and society was dominated by men. The church ruled the country, took over our education system, with the assistance of the state, and terrorised women. Women were second hand citizens and were abused by all of the above. Look at the laundries and mother and baby homes. But don’t forget the borstals and the psychiatric hospitals which were also overflowing with family embarrassments and unwanted or troublesome family members. The vast majority of Ireland’s dirty history was caused by men and driven by churchmen. The nuns, still guilty, were doing what they were told. Sadly a lot of them revelled in the abuse.
Abhorrent is the only word for this. However we haven’t learned from our past. In 50/60 years time we will be awaiting the report on historical homelessness and blaming…… someone else. I wasn’t their in the 50’s, I don’t or can’t understand the power the church held. It’s easy for me to say that the people are the church, the government, they should have done more. Back then it was probably best to look the other way. Just like we step over our homeless today!
Dev and McQuaid
Society was to blame, from the church to the family to the neighbours, to the fathers.
We must not forget this, but no land grab or money will ever sort this out. Nothing can fix this !
Do we all live in shame from now on?
@Galwaygogo: Society was not to blame. Blaming society blames the victims. And there are many victims. The church ruled this land with an iron fist. Dev’s Fianna Fáil party allowed it. Mícheál Martin needs to apologise for his own party’s involvement in the subjugation of the people.
@Galwaygogo: you’re right. Martin was actually right to some degree. This was the Church, local government, national government, health services, police and judiciary. All were complicit. But he overstepped the mark by saying all of society. Granted I’m sure there was an “acceptance” by the public, or at least knowledge, that certain things happened in these homes but the state services and local big wigs presumably knew exactly what was happening. They remained silent.
@Galwaygogo: No it wasn’t and no matter how many times you post it won’t make it correct.
Absolutely disgraceful how these women have been treated for such a holy country we were brought up in the church should be ashamed of them themselves
HOW A GOD PREACHING CHURCH SHAMED, MENTALLY TORTURED (some times physically)AND EXPLOITED VULNERABLE WOMEN WHO NEEDED HELP
More apologies to come …. Housing crisis and its impact on children .. 3000 evicted from their homes EVERY year …
Not the Church controlling this time … Banks/CentralBank/Developers/PoliticalClass.
https://www.change.org/p/irish-referendum-on-family-home-special-status
@Neuville-Kepler62F: & still we turn a blind eye…..
It was interesting how this was reported by the Irish TV news.
Almost as if it had been controlled by the state.
Sky news was much more truthful.
Hit the churches were it hurts their collection plates, don’t go and confiscate all their property’s here and sell them and give the proceeds to their victims? Then kick them out of the schools for once and all
The problem in Ireland is that we’ve never taken religion seriously. It was always about ‘respectability’. In Germany people take religion seriously (if they profess to be religious) and send their children to communion classes after school if they want them to have a holy communion. Here in Ireland religion has been mixed up in education and so you get the situation of parents having their children making their holy communion when they’ve never set foot in a church. There has to be strict separation of church and state and then people will bring up their children as Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or Star Wars or whatever and this constant conflict will stop
Questioning the word fallen in the headline
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