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Terri Harrison pictured with a photo of her baby Niall, at a protest in 2014. Sam Boal/RollingNews.ie

How a God-fearing Ireland shamed, abandoned and punished its 'fallen' women and girls

‘My mother had been conditioned to feel grateful for the sanctuary of the home as she had committed a terrible sin in having sex outside of marriage and they would take care of her bastard child, me.’

IRELAND WAS A God-fearing nation for much of the 20th Century, some people argue it still is.

But the level of influence and power exerted by the Catholic Church in decades gone by is hard to fathom at times.

Those days often seem long gone but, every now and then, we get a stark reminder of how recent they were and the repercussions they still have.

The long-awaited final report on the Mother and Baby Homes Commission of Investigation was published today.

The document, spanning 2,865 pages and over five years in the making, details the experiences of women and children who lived in 14 mother and baby homes and four county homes between 1922 and 1998.

It confirmed that about 9,000 children died in the 18 homes under investigation – about 15% of all the children who were in the institutions. It also explored how women ended up in the institutions and how they were treated while there. 

The report notes: “While mother and baby homes were not a peculiarly Irish phenomenon, the proportion of Irish unmarried mothers who were admitted to mother and baby homes or county homes in the twentieth century was probably the highest in the world.”

There were about 56,000 women and about 57,000 children in the mother and baby homes and county homes investigated by the Commission. The greatest number of admissions was in the 1960s and early 1970s.

It is likely there were a further 25,000 women and a larger number of children in the county homes which were not investigated; admissions to county homes were largely pre-1960.

Many had to take part in forced labour and their children were taken from them without their consent.

The final report included several references to something we already knew about Ireland.

For many years the worst thing you could do wasn’t commit rape, incest or murder – ‘falling’ pregnant out of marriage was much, much worse. And it had to be punished. 

These ‘fallen’ women and girls brought shames to themselves, their families, their parish – or so the story goes. They carried so much shame there was none left for the men and boys, sometimes their rapists, who got them pregnant.

Tens of thousands of them were sent to mother and baby homes or similar institutions to have their baby in secret and atone for their sins.

People trusted, or feared, the Church so much that their daughters were handed over almost without question. A priest or nun would be called upon – or take it upon themselves – to ‘fix’ the problem and hide the source.

According to the testimonies of some women, such was the trust, or fear, people had in priests, some also doubled up as gynaecologists.

An internal exam by a priest

One survivor recalled how, at the age of 16, she was in a relationship and became pregnant. She didn’t realise she was pregnant until she was seven months along.

She told her boyfriend, who told his mother, who was friendly with the local priest. She was then taken to the priest’s house, by both sets of parents.

The report notes: “She told the Committee that he examined her internally, taking 45 minutes about it, saying that he ‘needed to establish whether (she) had been sexually active for a while’ – because if she had, he said, she ‘would not be accepted into a mother and baby home’.”

According to this woman, her mother called her “a prostitute and a whore”.

The report noted that three of her uncles were priests and her parents were worried about how her pregnancy would affect them.

Both sets of parents were also very concerned, she said, about how “an unmarried pregnancy” would affect the careers of the witness’s brothers: ‘Everyone was being thought of but me’.

At all costs, Ireland had to protect its men.  The Taoiseach put a name on that today: misogyny. This is what it looks like.

Her words were among the many, many harrowing testimonies contained in the report. They paint a picture of how women were shamed, stigmatised, punished and ‘othered’.

‘We were othered’

Micheál Martin said the report “opens a window into a deeply misogynistic culture in Ireland”. The Commission may have opened a window, but the door of the institution was firmly locked.

Mary Harney, who was born in the Bessborough mother and baby home in Cork in 1949 and spent several years in the Good Shepherd Industrial School, says she feels a mix of “anxiety, anger and here we go again” about the report’s publication. 

Mary says women like her mother were “stigmatised in order to ‘other’ them”, so they were viewed as different to other people.

Referencing the work of political theorist Hannah Arendt, who spoke out about stigmatisation, Mary says the method of stigmatisation used in such institutions was that “you create them as fallen women and you then isolate them for the good of the morals of society”. 

The women’s children, people like Mary, were stigmatised too – by being labelled “illegitimate” and not afforded the same rights as others.

download (1) Mary Harney pictured in the Good Shepherd Industrial School in Cork, circa 1955. Mary Harney Mary Harney

Many people were complicit in propping up the system that abused these women and children, but ultimately Mary thinks the buck stops with the State.

“The Constitution of Ireland protected the family big time – Article 41 protected family life – and yet at the same time, the State destroyed the lives of over 162,000 people.

“You cannot claim the moral high ground when you do that. Society was complicit, there is no doubt about that.

There is no doubt about the religious authorities and society, the social workers, the county councils, the doctors, they were all complicit. But the ultimate responsibility belonged to the State, the State could have stopped it at any time.

Many survivors are critical of the fact the Commission says its found “no evidence that women were forced to enter the homes by the Church or State”. This is not the case, survivors argue, saying the same was true in relation to gardaí.

“They took people back to those homes, the Church transported women from England back to Bessborough to have their children. How can they say they were not involved in putting these women into these places? ‘Oh, it was their parents and it was society and it was the County Council.’

“Yes, but who maintains them in there? The Church. And if a woman ran away she was brought back by the guards,” Mary notes.

She says the stance that women “didn’t understand that they were free to leave” is insulting and inaccurate.

“Do not insult me or my mother. Do not insult my mother. Do you think any woman would have stayed there if she was free to leave?”

‘Who gave anybody the right to lock me up?’

Terri Harrison gave birth to a son in the St Patrick’s institution on the Navan Road in Dublin in 1973 when she was 18.

She was pregnant and living London but was “kidnapped” by nuns and brought back to Ireland to have her baby.

Now 66, she is still trying to find her son.

“The only thing that’s good that came out today is the fact that we’re being acknowledged at last. Mothers who were locked away and lived with their silent grief will now have the opportunity to be able to talk about it and cry about it. And that’s something.”

After the webinar some survivors attended with the Taoiseach and Minister Roderic O’Gorman this afternoon, Terri contacted some women who weren’t part of the call – women in their 70s and 80s who waited decades to be told “you did nothing wrong”.

Terri has mixed feeling about the webinar and whether or not the attitudes of government towards survivors have changed.

“There was kind of compassion, but to me it was like something that was very staged, very contrived, very polished, very sanitised, and very much so shifting blame onto parents.

I was abducted from London, put on the plane and brought back to this country and imprisoned in Bessborough and then I escaped got put into Pat’s, but it was no parent or anybody, it was the Catholic Church.

She says many other women faced the same fate – they were not in the homes of their own free will or that of their parents.

Terri says she has asked the same question for many years but “I’ve never got an answer”.

“And the question is, who gave anybody the right to lock me up? Nobody. I’ll answer that.

“Today is a prime example of shifting accountability. This is not about blame, this is about acknowledgement. This is about openness and transparency and allowing people to be able to open up about it and for people to learn about us. And then we can start to heal.”

‘Your bastard child’

James Russell (58) was born in St Patrick’s institution on the Navan Road in 1962 “to a young petrified mother who under pressure from the Church and society had no choice but to be there”.

His grandmother and a neighbour signed them out of the home, he believes, in return for a fee. His mother, Kathleen, had been kept away from him in the institution and struggled to bond with him.

She moved to England and James was “given to childless neighbours to raise as their son”. He says they were “good people” but took him out of school at 13 years of age so he could take up full-time work in a factory, “handing most of my earnings up”.

James saw his mother over the years but they were never close, she was always “cold” and he couldn’t understand why.

He says he went on to have “a happy, fulfilled life”, counting himself lucky. He got married and had two daughters, while his mother went on to have two other children.

“She was a good mother to them and that kind of made it even worse. I was thinking, ‘What was wrong with me?’ I couldn’t figure it out.

“You have your own children and you love them so much you can’t understand how somebody could feel like that towards their child.”

When his mother was dying from cancer in 2011, James travelled to England to see her and asked why she left him in Ireland and treated him the way she did.

“She told me that when she was forced into going into the home, she was immediately separated from me after my birth.

Up until then she had been conditioned to feel grateful for the sanctuary of the home as she had committed a terrible sin in having sex outside of marriage and they would take care of the bastard child that she would have. Those were the words they used. Basically, ‘we’ll clean up your mess’.

“She said that she was unable to bond with me due to the separation and trauma that she was going through. She apologised and said that she did love me before she died.

“It was a too late for me, I needed to hear this as a young child needed to hear, not as a 48-year-old man.”

James says he rarely speaks about his experience but wanted to share his story after the report came out today to show “how lives have been affected in many ways from these inhumane homes”.

He says many other people suffered more than he did but his story shows, even if you were only briefly in an institution, the whole course of your life was changed and impacted forever.

“I blamed her all those years, which you would, you feel rejected. It was only when she was dying that I understood where she was coming from and how [the nuns] totally programmed her to break the bond.”

Different survivors want different things on foot of the publication of the report – for Mary, the most important aspect is getting access to records such as her birth and medical information.

She says she and others are used to promises and platitude, now they want action.

“This is what we are used to, this is what we expect and this is what crushes us everytime. You know, people have been asking me today how am I feeling and I want to say: What do you think I’m feeling? It’s a mixture of anxiety, anger, here we go again, it’s the same old same old.

“How long will I have to do this work for justice? I’m thinking to myself there won’t be a time when I can retire from working for justice for the people who were institutionalised in Ireland. I don’t see it, when I can put my hands up and say I’m retiring from this because we achieved to set out to achieve.”

Terri says the main positive from today is that more people will be able to speak about their experiences without shame.

“We’ve waited too long to be able to talk about it. To have what happened to us acknowledged is something, it gave us some hope.”

Terri says if the government doesn’t follow through on promises for redress, and medical and other supports for survivors, the Irish people will hold them to account.

“I’m very hopeful because I realised today, and it really hit me very hard, that every change we have made – and there have been great changes in this country – is all down to the Irish people, not the government, not the church, not the EU, us, Irish people.

“I am going to do everything in my power to get the people behind us today to give us back our dignity and respect and above all to treat us like proper human beings.”

Whether or not Ireland learns the lessons of the past, time will tell. 

The government’s narrative is that the State, the Church and society all need to shoulder some blame – which, it could be argued, is fair. But if everyone is to blame, no one is. 

The Taoiseach said that religious organisations who ran the institutions should make an apology to survivors and also “make a contribution“ towards a redress scheme. Some orders have released statements today – containing varying degrees of contrition.

Survivors have been among those to point out that the Church still owes financial compensation to people impacted by previous reports into institutional abuse, so some are not holding out much hope in this regard.

For many, financial redress was never the main goal and still isn’t – it’s about accountability, a State apology and an attempt to right some of the heinous wrongs.

“You know we go in with not a lot of hope and we come out with a glimmer of hope,” Mary says of today.

“But we also have the expectation of here we go again. How many times do we have to take this? How many times do we have to do this?”

The State is the one who must atone for its sins now.

Information on counselling services can be read here.

We’ve been covering what’s in the final report all day – on the site and on Twitter (follow @orlaryan  and @conalthomas for updates). If you or a relative spent time in a mother and baby home or county home and would like to share your experience, please email orla@thejournal.ie or conal@thejournal.ie.

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    Mute David cotter
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    Jan 12th 2021, 11:18 PM

    Time for the CAB to start grabbing some serious assist…if they can do it for selling cannabis they can do it for selling stolen babies…….

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    Mute Vonvonic
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    Jan 12th 2021, 11:28 PM

    @David cotter: Absoluely. And there’s more to it than that. All church property should be seized and sold back to communities for rock bottom prices. There are empty schools and parish halls all over the country in communities with no facilities. The money should be used to compensate any and all victims of the church. It’s the only punishment they understand seeing as they can all absolve eachother of sin.

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    Mute Elaine Phelan
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    Jan 13th 2021, 8:41 AM

    @Deirdre McDonnell: I agree… There is a lot of hypocrisy in this country. Kids get christened to get into schools. They do their communion and confirmation as a cultural thing. But anyone who does this is explicitly supporting this institution that has brought nothing but pain, judgement and shame on the Irish people

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    Mute ÓDuibhír Abú
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    Jan 13th 2021, 8:55 AM

    @Elaine Phelan: Take back control of the Schools.

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    Mute Colm Beck
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:22 AM

    @David cotter: If the Guards don’t investigate, nothing has changed.

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    Mute Martin Glynn
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    Jan 13th 2021, 10:01 AM

    @Colm Beck: investigate who? I would guess they r all dead. Yet more waste of time and money.

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    Mute GrumpyAulFella
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    Jan 13th 2021, 10:05 AM

    @Colm Beck: the guards were part of the problem at the time.

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    Mute Jim Lingk
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    Jan 13th 2021, 1:44 PM

    @Elaine Phelan: Most people I know who do this do it to help get their child into school.

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    Mute Anú Ní Shúilleabháin
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    Jan 13th 2021, 3:12 PM

    @Jim Lingk: they made a packet washing linens for hotels, with free labour

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    Mute Paul Power
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    Jan 13th 2021, 4:33 PM

    @Martin Glynn: Dig them up. Put them in a mass grave marked murderers. They never deserved a Christian burial.

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    Mute Elaine Phelan
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    Jan 13th 2021, 8:45 PM

    @Jim Lingk: still hypocritical. There are educate together schools

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    Mute Scott Cooper
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    Jan 17th 2021, 9:03 AM

    @Elaine Phelan: yes. All heavily over-subscribed, leaving people with no choice but to subscribe to the system. Try it as an execise, try to register a child in an educate togerher school near you, then realise your options. Even request the forms, check out the section where you need a stamp from the given parish. Not a member of a church? Very best of luck to you.
    A twisted sectarian system.

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    Mute Billy Big Baws
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    Jan 12th 2021, 11:20 PM

    If God is almighty and powerful…why does it care if we believe in it or not?….A God that decides to punish you for not believing in it sounds like an entity with serious self-esteem issues.
    Appalling what the church done in this country.

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    Mute Jane
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    Jan 12th 2021, 11:39 PM

    @Billy Big Baws: don’t be too quick to equate God with the Catholic Church. Nothing godly or Christian about them.

    202
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    Mute Paddy O Sullivan
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    Jan 12th 2021, 11:46 PM

    @Billy Big Baws: God is a word. Not a being.

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    Mute Dylan Byrne
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    Jan 13th 2021, 1:15 AM

    @Billy Big Baws: God (or whatever you wanna call it) lives in every living creature in the universe, knowing and honoring God is a way to connect to everything!
    Don’t let organised religion ruin your view on this, God is good.

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    Mute Dylan Byrne
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    Jan 13th 2021, 1:20 AM

    @Dylan Byrne: When I say God I mean the divine spark, that lil bitta magic that keeps things running, you know? Who’s to say that has an ego at all, and could even perceive things as we do. Either way, do right by God and you’re doing right by yourself.

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    Mute Paul Furey
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    Jan 13th 2021, 1:48 AM

    @Dylan Byrne: you mean the same god that killed 25 million according to the bible?

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    Mute Dylan Byrne
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    Jan 13th 2021, 2:10 AM

    @Paul Furey: There have been approx 110 Billion Homo Sapiens that have lived and died on this planet so far. Yeah, that God. Alot of stuff has happened Paul

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    Mute Deirdre McDonnell
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    Jan 13th 2021, 2:38 AM

    @Dylan Byrne: Stop preaching nonsense! God my a&€e! Do good and be a nice good person. That’s all you need to be and stop believing in fairy tails!

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    Mute Dylan Byrne
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    Jan 13th 2021, 2:54 AM

    @Deirdre McDonnell: Be good and be a nice person, that’s the main point really. Rather or not you believe in the Divine, it still exists. Your problem is with Creepy Weirdos and their Creepy Weirdo Cult, don’t bring God into it,, he’s on your side even if his ‘humble disciples’ aren’t
    Catholicism has ruined this country, its really the wrong framework to view this whole thing through

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    Mute Deirdre McDonnell
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    Jan 13th 2021, 3:04 AM

    @Dylan Byrne: Prove to me “the Devine” exits and I’ll debate with you, unfortunately I only understand logic and what I can actually see! Your theory lacks evidence unfortunately. Evidence isn’t a bible it’s a story no different from any other fairytale!

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    Mute Deirdre McDonnell
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    Jan 13th 2021, 3:06 AM

    @Dylan Byrne: I have no doubt you are the type of person who for example was in a car crash or needed immediate medical help and you would thank god for “saving “ you and ignore medical staff!

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    Mute Dylan Byrne
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    Jan 13th 2021, 3:13 AM

    @Dylan Byrne: I’m not part of some unfamiliar religion, I only call it God because its shorthand for something that’d take me ages to describe in the comment section of Journal.ie lol

    God is the light in a person’s eyes, its how an acorn knows how to grow into a tree, it’s the urge you get to talk to someone right as they need you. You know what I’m talking about, it’s THAT thing.
    Don’t let organised religions and the corrupt pedophiles running the.paint your view on this, you’ll do yourself a disservice

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    Mute Dylan Byrne
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    Jan 13th 2021, 3:16 AM

    @Deirdre McDonnell: I can see how you’d think that, but really not an accurate description at all. Ive always been an atheist and scientifically minded, it’s quantum mechanics that got me interested in religion.

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    Mute Deirdre McDonnell
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    Jan 13th 2021, 3:31 AM

    @Dylan Byrne: You call yourself atheist yet go on about god? And an acorn grows? Nature. All can be explained with logic and science.

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    Mute Dylan Byrne
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    Jan 13th 2021, 3:34 AM

    @Deirdre McDonnell: Reading comprehension exercises are free and available online if you ever wanna brush up

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    Mute Deirdre McDonnell
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    Jan 13th 2021, 3:40 AM

    @Dylan Byrne: brush up on my religion? No thanks. I’d rather go on a date with Daniel O’Donnell!

    21
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    Mute Dylan Byrne
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    Jan 13th 2021, 3:43 AM

    @Deirdre McDonnell:??? ok

    12
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    Mute Jerriko17
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:02 AM

    @Deirdre McDonnell: And what are you doing….. Preaching!!!! believe it or not… You can do good, be a good person and and believe that it comes from “God”. Believe what you want but let others do the same!!!

    9
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    Mute Ciaran Brady
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:16 AM

    @Dylan Byrne: Any of those mushrooms going spare mate?

    6
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    Mute Pat Conway
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    Jan 13th 2021, 11:19 AM

    @Dylan Byrne: “God is good”? You mean the same god who in the Old Testament commanded genocide?

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    Mute Dylan Byrne
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    Jan 13th 2021, 11:59 AM

    @Pat Conway: Im so sad this awful religion has sanded down out every bit of receptiveness to spirituality in this country.
    But also, if you’d have read my comments you’d see Im not really talking about Thee Biblical Canonical God, but go off sis

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    Mute Pauline Gallagher
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    Jan 13th 2021, 1:24 PM

    @Dylan Byrne: The bible is a work of fiction, and badly written fiction, at that. Jesus teaches forgiveness and to be non judgmental, but god is all about the judgement. Who documented Jesus being tested by Satan in the desert? was it the gospel according to some apostle who wasnt even there at the time? written in a book over a century after Jesus and apostles lived and died? why did god kill people in a big flood, why did Jesus turn water into wine so everyone could get wasted and have an excellent time? WHERE has god and jesus been in the last 2000 years? ill tell you where, in peoples inherited imagination, passed down from generation to generation, the worlds biggest lie: GOD.

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    Mute Julian Friesel
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    Jan 13th 2021, 1:27 PM

    @Pat Conway: he means pantheism.

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    Mute Philip Mckenna
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    Jan 13th 2021, 4:55 PM

    @Dylan Byrne: Why wasn’t he on the sides of the children who were murdered and abused by “his disciples ” was he too busy catching up on Netflix??

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    Mute Philomena Keegan
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    Jan 12th 2021, 11:45 PM

    The “fathers “ of these children were ignored ..none of them had to pay for their sins. What a surprise there ! Men were encouraged to “sow their wild oats”. Not much has changed in that respect!

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    Mute Vonvonic
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    Jan 12th 2021, 11:53 PM

    @Philomena Keegan: Yeah. Men never had any problems with the church.

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    Mute Daniel Dunne
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    Jan 13th 2021, 12:53 AM

    @Philomena Keegan: what a misanthropic statement to make.
    How many young chaps 17, 18, 19 who were fathers but were restricted in doing anything about this.
    Their lives destroyed too.

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    Mute Franny Ando
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    Jan 13th 2021, 7:40 AM

    @Daniel Dunne: Exactly not all men or actually boys got any chance to have a say. Unless you are of the era of the 50′s you won’t understand. Dont get me wrong a lot walked away with no remorse but a lot had no option. A lot were shipped of to the distant relative in England or America without any say in the matter.

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    Mute Galwaygogo
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    Jan 13th 2021, 8:25 AM

    @Philomena Keegan: the parents and families of the girls were the ones that sent them in under sham, the boys and men had no say in the process of family, unless married. Sham on the parents of those girls and women.

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    Mute Franny Ando
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    Jan 13th 2021, 10:05 AM

    @Galwaygogo: No that is completely wrong. Some may have but it was a very small minority. Majority of people back then were terrified of the church. The full blame lies at the feet of the Catholic church and the government(s) that enabled them. As I said before the poor lived in fear of them, the wealthy in fear of the scandal.

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    Mute Franny Ando
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    Jan 13th 2021, 10:11 AM

    @Philomena Keegan: By the way its not that very long ago if a mother died in childbirth or leaving a young family the nuns would turn up at the door pressuring fathers to hand them over. They believed a father couldn’t raise them. A lot had to fight tooth and nail to keep them against church and Government. This would happen within days of the death!! The catalogue of crimes at the door of the church is beyond horrendous.

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    Mute Vonvonic
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    Jan 13th 2021, 11:15 AM

    @Franny Ando: Absolutely. The families were brainwashed, they thought their daughters were going to hell. The Chrirch and government are the only ones to blame here. Society was indoctrinated.

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    Mute Hup Abù
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    Jan 12th 2021, 11:27 PM

    Church and state. .. don’t let them form the narrative that we are all responsible. We were an oppressed people delivered into the hands of a second more insidious oppressor. What ef were we meant to do when every institution was against us.

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    Mute EillieEs
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    Jan 13th 2021, 2:47 AM

    @Hup Abù: not protect the men and boys and shun the girls and women who were sometimes raped? Not treat innocent children as outcasts? No church or state forced anybody to do that.

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    Mute Ger Murphy
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    Jan 13th 2021, 7:59 AM

    @Hup Abù: shocking events from our past. I wonder in 30 years time will we be reading another scandalous report about Direct Provision? Foreign adoptions?
    This weeks report is of little benefit if we don’t use it to reflect on our current attitudes.

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    Mute ÓDuibhír Abú
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:10 AM

    @Ger Murphy: Think of this Scenario; I’m minding some children, because neighbors trust me, but some go missing; never seen again, no inquiries, but I keep getting children to mind. Rumors abound, The Babies are Buried in the backyard, still no inquiries , but I’m still receiving children. 50 or 60 years on, some Bones are found in my back garden, when asked about these, I say; I don’t know as I kept no records, or I must have misplaced the records. Do you think the Police would view me as suspect in the disappearance of those children who were never found. The Bones came to the surface seeking Justice, crying out for the, 900 Buried in the Septic Tank, any one charged. To date, Approx 9,000 are missing, Children unaccounted for and no Arrests.

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    Mute Neuville-Kepler62F
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    Jan 13th 2021, 11:33 AM

    @Ger Murphy: More apologies to come. Housing! Not the control influence of the Church this time but Bank/Developer and their Political Party friends.

    https://i2-prod.irishmirror.ie/incoming/article20644837.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/1_WhatsApp-Image-2019-10-17-at-213457-1jpeg.jpg

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    Mute Cocker
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    Jan 13th 2021, 12:18 PM

    @EillieEs: I think you’ll find the that one of the main findings of this whole report is that it was enforced by church and state through fear and shame

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    Mute Dobby Dooo Dooo
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    Jan 12th 2021, 11:40 PM

    It’s just incredibly tragic and so wrong that anyone was treated like this. Imprisoned and separated from their own children. It’s beyond cruel.

    What repercussions are there for those who were involved? I imagine some are still alive. Will there be criminal proceedings?

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    Mute James Coll
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    Jan 13th 2021, 12:23 AM

    it was the way thing were done in those days. the church was the be-all and the end
    -all. Ireland was an ex colonised country. it had just established its freedom from Britain. and the catholic church took advantage of that, so Charles McQuaid and Develara draughted a constitution. for the future republic of Ireland. and the country would become priest-ridden. whatever a priest said was the gospel in my school days. i was not taught history in a balanced way i was radicalised to hate the brits.I took it with a grain of salt. but it took a long time for the Irish to wake up to their infatuation with the church. Ireland was, so engrossed in history and religion. that most families had a priest in the in the circle. if you didn’t play hurling, or vote ff. you may as well go off to England.

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    Mute maevekearney
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    Jan 13th 2021, 8:18 AM

    @James Coll: absolutely. DeValera
    Said something along the lines of ‘I’m a Catholic first and an Irishman second’ when In government. Never boded well for our constitution

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    Mute Micheál
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:44 AM

    @maevekearney:
    Hi Maeve,
    just to clarify, that quote is by Brendan Corish, TD for Wexford and leader of The Labour Party

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    Mute Donal Desmond
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:46 AM

    @maevekearney: That quote was made by the leader of the Labour party, Stand open to correction but think it was Norton…A Catholic first, An Irishman second, A socialist third….Says it all.

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    Mute Neuville-Kepler62F
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    Jan 13th 2021, 11:35 AM

    @maevekearney: Same Constitution now making children homeless … more apologies in years to come. https://www.change.org/p/irish-referendum-on-family-home-special-status

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    Mute Ciaran O'Mara
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    Jan 13th 2021, 5:20 PM

    @Donal Desmond: it was John A Costello who said this in 1948 on becoming Taoiseach and offering his republican govrrnmemts loyalty to Rome.

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    Mute George Vladisavljevic
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    Jan 13th 2021, 7:35 AM

    It really makes my blood boil when I hear the leaders of our nation say that they cannot oblige or force the church to pay compensation or that we, as a society, are all guilty for years of abuse that went on in the mother and baby homes.

    Over the years, governments have brought in taxes and laws many of which, such as the motor tax, inheritance tax, TV licence, etc… which most people did not agree with or did not want them, but yet they were still imposed on the people of the nation. If one broke the law, the offender in most cases was fined or given some kind of sentence. Now we hear that nothing can be done to those that terrorised those poor women and children and that the nation is powerless to seek compensation from the church.

    Listening to the Taoiseach last night putting the blame on Society and saying that society as a whole failed the women and children added up to collective guilt and punishment. The brutality and suffering, for the most part, were inflicted by the church. Be it the priests, nuns, brothers but it was still the church who ultimately had physical control over the poor victims. The government, whose job is to protect the people of the nation by enforcing or bringing in the laws to protect its citizens failed to do their job and, in most cases, ignored the plight of the victims and in many cases were probably complicit in the treatment of the victims.

    To blame society as a whole (meaning the citizens of the country) is ignoring the fact that the nation was ruled by the church and the politicians that the masses had no actual control over what was being done in their name, and one dared not speak out bout either the church or the politics of the land because they would be punished by both the church and the laws of the land that were brought in the same politicians that they had elected. Many of whom were taking the best interests of the clergy and themselves ahead of the poor citizens who had voted them in.

    To blame society as a whole for what occurred in the homes is also to blame the families and the actual victims as well. Rules concerning children that were born outside of marriage were not brought in by the society as a whole but rather by a small group of people supposedly acting in God’s name and under the noses of the people (the politicians and the judiciary) who were voted in to protect them in the first place.

    To hear that we cannot force the church to participate in the compensation just seems wrong. If the government decides to only use public funds to compensate the victims, they are using funds that the victims too contributed to via the taxes that they have paid to the State, the same State that failed them and is the same State that is once again not fulfilling its responsibility by not going after the perpetrators of this horrific treatment of the poor women and children.

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    Mute Moss Cotter
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    Jan 12th 2021, 11:47 PM

    The notion of God is a convenient scapegoat for the actions or inactions of people, the biggest problem was that some nuns, priests, bishops and others chose to do evil and hundreds of thousands of others hadn’t the courage to do good

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    Mute ÓDuibhír Abú
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:12 AM

    @Moss Cotter: The; One good one stayed Silent is; Guilty by Association.

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    Mute Tom's
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    Jan 13th 2021, 1:22 AM

    So Mr Martin it’s society’s fault??And who’s to blame for society? Answer Church and State.All you are doing now is upsetting people who have suffered for decades.You yourself are not that far detached from FF politicians who were in charge in the sixties for example Brian Lenihan Minister for Justice 1964 to 1969 from Castleknock I was born a mile away from there in 1965 in St Patrick’s Navan Road and his government did nothing about what was going on
    Two disasters within the one week I don’t think you’ll last much longer.

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    Mute GrumpyAulFella
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:43 AM

    @Tom’s: I think that’s the point he was making though. If we simply blame the Church, full-stop, then local government, national government, health services, police and judicial, are all exonerated yet we know they were all complicit. It would be absolutely wrong to let these other groups off the hook.

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    Mute TheKloppKop
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    Jan 13th 2021, 6:53 AM

    If you support the church by going to mass and donating. You support the crime’s they’ve committed.

    Church should have all it’s asset’s taken off them.

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    Mute ÓDuibhír Abú
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:14 AM

    @TheKloppKop: Any one supporting the Roman Church or any, are Guilty by Association.

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    Mute GrumpyAulFella
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:55 AM

    @TheKloppKop: I think that’s a bit like saying if you contribute to today’s German army Xmas fund then you support Nazi’ism. It’s clear to all that the remnants of the Church in Ireland today is a far cry from the institution that was charged with the running of these homes because the state was incapable. I wouldn’t be in favour of stripping all assets from today’s Church. Certainly assets should be sold to pay compensation but local churches for those who practice a faith should remain. Atheist Ireland would prefer to burn them all down obviously but faith is an important lifeline for a lot of our people.

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    Mute Full Circle
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    Jan 12th 2021, 11:40 PM

    Don’t worry people, this will be forgotten about and we will be back to being fed the latest about trump & his social media status very soon.

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    Mute David cotter
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    Jan 12th 2021, 11:43 PM

    @Full Circle: won’t be forgotten by mother’s of dead or stolen babies my friend……

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    Mute conex
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    Jan 12th 2021, 11:50 PM

    Unfortunately we are still a major god fearing country. After what the Catholic Church has got away with in the past in this country and still gets away with on a daily basis, It proves that this country will always have a semblance of fear of “god” in Ireland .

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    Mute Michael Creagh
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    Jan 13th 2021, 8:59 AM

    @conex: speak for yourself.

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    Mute GrumpyAulFella
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:47 AM

    @conex: what does it get away with today? I don’t think this nation is God fearing anymore. The church is there for those who want it. For those who don’t, walk on. Most people walk on.

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    Mute Franny Ando
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    Jan 13th 2021, 10:15 AM

    @GrumpyAulFella: They still gave a hold. You can’t marry in church without their mandated marriage course. You can’t get a child christened without a parenting course!! Most if which are done to get a child into school. Church should be removed and disassociated from all schools.

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    Mute Franny Ando
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    Jan 13th 2021, 10:15 AM

    @Franny Ando: Have

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    Mute GrumpyAulFella
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    Jan 13th 2021, 10:27 AM

    @Franny Ando: yeah but I guess if you’re getting married in a church in the first place and having a child baptised then you’re buying into the church in the first place. It’s as much about tradition and culture in Ireland than religious faith.

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    Mute Franny Ando
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    Jan 13th 2021, 6:23 PM

    @GrumpyAulFella: The christening is for the schools. Because unfortunately a lot of small village and town schools are still under Catholic church control.

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    Mute Buckley Cli
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    Jan 13th 2021, 1:59 AM

    Some people asking about my mother’s documentary today…she mentioned babies at Goldenbridge in 1950s and 1960s …ifiplayer.ie/dear-daughter

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    Mute Tom's
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    Jan 13th 2021, 2:43 AM

    @Buckley Cli: RTÉ or Virgin Media should broadcast it tomorrow. Great documentary.

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    Mute J Flood
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    Jan 13th 2021, 8:00 AM

    IMHO – time for a legal and formal separation of the church/state relationship. Remove all religious references from the Constitution especially the opening prayer. Preserve and ensure religious freedom. In the case of schools having a Catholic “ethos” this connection should end. Time for the Catholic Church in Ireland to stand on it’s own two feet and become an independent institution. Non- Christian religions have zero connection to the state and survive, time for the Catholic Church to do the same.

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    Mute Julian Friesel
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    Jan 13th 2021, 1:36 PM

    @J Flood: hear hear

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    Mute TonyB
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    Jan 13th 2021, 5:57 AM

    This makes me so angry and I was not in any way affected by it. I can’t imagine how those children or mothers are feeling now.

    Personally I don’t believe an apology, from the Church or Government is going to be enough. Don’t be surprised if some victims take the law into their own hands….and I wouldn’t blame them.

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    Mute Nomis Andrews
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    Jan 13th 2021, 8:28 AM

    The route forward is very simple. Seperate Church and State in the Constitution. Also from all Healthcare and Education. Make the Catholic Church compensate all the victims from it’s own assets.

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    Mute Julian Friesel
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    Jan 13th 2021, 1:36 PM

    @Nomis Andrews: this. 100%

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    Mute Paul Jude Redmond
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    Jan 13th 2021, 1:54 AM

    And yet some people miss the good old days of Holy Catholic Ireland…

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    Mute Paul Power
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    Jan 13th 2021, 2:08 AM

    Devils Island.

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    Mute James Ward
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    Jan 13th 2021, 8:57 AM

    Important to note: we weren’t god fearing, we were church fearing. It wasn’t the great of brimstone and fire, but the genuine, constant threat that we would be shamed publicly, and or families and friends would have to take sides of the church didn’t like you. From birth in a church hospital, to a church run school, to a church oath in court, they were always there.

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    Mute ÓDuibhír Abú
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:23 AM

    @James Ward: Proof Of Repentance is need by these Church people, as the saying goes, ‘Put your money where your mouth is’, ArkBishop, Bishops, Priest, Nuns, Sell your multimillion Euros Property’s made on the Graves of 9,000 plus dead Babies. Ireland will never forget what was done to; Little Children by this Church. A church that should have; Stood for what is Right, closed its eyes, blinded by Riches, blinded to the; Suffering of Little children. And now, the NUNS ( Huns) hiding away somewhere waiting for their Press release to be verified by; Head NUN and her ArkBishop.

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    Mute Michael Creagh
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    Jan 13th 2021, 8:50 AM

    Enough already,its clear multiple crimes have been committed,follow the usual procedure in such a scenario,investigate and prosecute.

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    Mute Gerard Carthy
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:04 AM

    The people who went through these homes are angry. Personally I think it’s a tragedy that people are still this angry a lifetime later. In all honesty they cannot have any memory of the homes and are angry about circumstances, injustice or what they think happened.
    I read Catherine Corless pamphlet, it’s very short. As a piece of historical research I thought it was appalling. It made sweeping statements and stoked up this whole dumped baby idea which can’t be helpful to people born there.
    There was no effort whatsoever to contextualise the situation in the TUAM home with wider society at the time, nor reference the very high infant and child mortality rates, nor correlate high death rates on specific years with measles outbreaks, which would have been as dangerous as Covid in a nursing home with no treatment.
    Ireland was a religious, intolerant, pious, vengeful, shameful and unkind place half a century ago.
    The public health act of 1947 was the beginning of bringing down infant mortality, free secondary education didn’t arrive for another twenty years and a social safety net for ‘unmarried mothers’ until 1971.
    We should all be ashamed of this past, and not try to blame it on dead nuns. Maybe then we could learn something from it, besides indulging in blame and indignation.

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    Mute Michael Creagh
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:12 AM

    @Gerard Carthy: dumped baby idea!!!are you for real?context!!!are you for real???

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    Mute Gerard Carthy
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:39 AM

    @Michael Creagh: Yeah As real as the mass grave for still born and indigent infants inside the gates of Glasnevin. Or Mount Jerome. Or the back garden of the Coombe Hospital.
    It was completely standard until relatively recently.

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    Mute Franny Ando
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    Jan 13th 2021, 10:21 AM

    @Gerard Carthy: Crawl back under your stone. Your ignor-ant comment has no valid merit whatsoever. It was the likes of people like you that were the problem. Unfortunately after reading that dis-gusting diatribe they still exist.

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    Mute Pauline Gallagher
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    Jan 13th 2021, 1:31 PM

    @Gerard Carthy: Wow. Just wow. WHAT do you know about it? You are actually claiming that the people who have been through this are what, overreacting? These babies had no bonding with their mothers, during very formative years in their lives. They could have been killed, they were lucky to survive at all! How can you even dispute the fact that so many bodies were found, dumped liked waste? F the nuns responsible.

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    Mute Julian Friesel
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    Jan 13th 2021, 1:46 PM

    @Gerard Carthy: I have never read anything more patronising in my life than your comment void of empathy. you must be an 3vil man. probably the kind that would have taken part in the stigmatisation of “fallen women” and felt justified in his judgement. I feel like i need a shower after reading your comment.

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    Mute Jjohn Cconway
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:13 AM

    Back then we lived in a patriarchal society. Politicians, nearly all men, cowered before the church, which was all men, and society was dominated by men. The church ruled the country, took over our education system, with the assistance of the state, and terrorised women. Women were second hand citizens and were abused by all of the above. Look at the laundries and mother and baby homes. But don’t forget the borstals and the psychiatric hospitals which were also overflowing with family embarrassments and unwanted or troublesome family members. The vast majority of Ireland’s dirty history was caused by men and driven by churchmen. The nuns, still guilty, were doing what they were told. Sadly a lot of them revelled in the abuse.

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    Mute Tony Harris
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    Jan 13th 2021, 8:32 AM

    Abhorrent is the only word for this. However we haven’t learned from our past. In 50/60 years time we will be awaiting the report on historical homelessness and blaming…… someone else. I wasn’t their in the 50’s, I don’t or can’t understand the power the church held. It’s easy for me to say that the people are the church, the government, they should have done more. Back then it was probably best to look the other way. Just like we step over our homeless today!

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    Mute William Bryan
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    Jan 13th 2021, 9:46 AM

    Dev and McQuaid

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    Mute Galwaygogo
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    Jan 13th 2021, 8:20 AM

    Society was to blame, from the church to the family to the neighbours, to the fathers.

    We must not forget this, but no land grab or money will ever sort this out. Nothing can fix this !

    Do we all live in shame from now on?

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    Mute Seán Óg
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    Jan 13th 2021, 8:59 AM

    @Galwaygogo: Society was not to blame. Blaming society blames the victims. And there are many victims. The church ruled this land with an iron fist. Dev’s Fianna Fáil party allowed it. Mícheál Martin needs to apologise for his own party’s involvement in the subjugation of the people.

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    Mute GrumpyAulFella
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    Jan 13th 2021, 10:03 AM

    @Galwaygogo: you’re right. Martin was actually right to some degree. This was the Church, local government, national government, health services, police and judiciary. All were complicit. But he overstepped the mark by saying all of society. Granted I’m sure there was an “acceptance” by the public, or at least knowledge, that certain things happened in these homes but the state services and local big wigs presumably knew exactly what was happening. They remained silent.

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    Mute Franny Ando
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    Jan 13th 2021, 6:26 PM

    @Galwaygogo: No it wasn’t and no matter how many times you post it won’t make it correct.

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    Mute Maura Lafford
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    Jan 13th 2021, 8:19 AM

    Absolutely disgraceful how these women have been treated for such a holy country we were brought up in the church should be ashamed of them themselves

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    Mute Carlin Ite
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    Jan 13th 2021, 8:55 AM

    HOW A GOD PREACHING CHURCH SHAMED, MENTALLY TORTURED (some times physically)AND EXPLOITED VULNERABLE WOMEN WHO NEEDED HELP

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    Mute Neuville-Kepler62F
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    Jan 13th 2021, 11:57 AM

    More apologies to come …. Housing crisis and its impact on children .. 3000 evicted from their homes EVERY year …

    https://www.thesun.ie/news/3486281/heartbreaking-moment-girl-4-bursts-into-tears-as-shes-told-shell-spend-a-third-christmas-homeless/

    Not the Church controlling this time … Banks/CentralBank/Developers/PoliticalClass.
    https://www.change.org/p/irish-referendum-on-family-home-special-status

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    Mute Tony Harris
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    Jan 13th 2021, 2:55 PM

    @Neuville-Kepler62F: & still we turn a blind eye…..

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    Mute billy bound
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    Jan 13th 2021, 11:33 AM

    It was interesting how this was reported by the Irish TV news.
    Almost as if it had been controlled by the state.
    Sky news was much more truthful.

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    Mute Philip Mckenna
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    Jan 13th 2021, 4:52 PM

    Hit the churches were it hurts their collection plates, don’t go and confiscate all their property’s here and sell them and give the proceeds to their victims? Then kick them out of the schools for once and all

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    Mute Virgil
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    Jan 13th 2021, 10:50 AM

    The problem in Ireland is that we’ve never taken religion seriously. It was always about ‘respectability’. In Germany people take religion seriously (if they profess to be religious) and send their children to communion classes after school if they want them to have a holy communion. Here in Ireland religion has been mixed up in education and so you get the situation of parents having their children making their holy communion when they’ve never set foot in a church. There has to be strict separation of church and state and then people will bring up their children as Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or Star Wars or whatever and this constant conflict will stop

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    Mute Anú Ní Shúilleabháin
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    Jan 13th 2021, 3:14 PM

    Questioning the word fallen in the headline

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