Comment of the day Gary, champion.

No its not a good deal Killian.We own the resources under our seas and we get a miserly 20% of its value.The deals get sown up and then suddenly they find “Oh we actually have more oil than we thought!”.Our idiotic government get nothing extra.

The Irish government could have gotten help from the Norwegians years ago to help us set up our own state oil company.The Norwegians already own 25% of OUR oil (through shareholding) not to mention 78% tax from their OWN oil in Norway..Their government actually has some sense and social conscience.The peoples oil.

We could have our own state oil company.We could call it The Dubh Óir Oil Company :P We could have untold wealth but our government have no balls and we are worse because we dont fight for what we have and we sit by and watch while our resources are being robbed from under our feet.The government paid out €1.2 billion last month to un-guaranteed bondholders for a bank that no longer exists.An oil drilling rig can cost as little as €20 million to set up in the continental shelf on which we sit.We could have 50 chances of striking oil before we even hit a billion euro!It can be done with expert help which can be bought.If Norway can do it so can we.Why is our government so reluctant to profit from our own resources???

Well said Avarus! Our constitution states that the natural resources of Ireland belong to it’s people. Funny how we call ourselves a democracy but give the people no say over what is rightfully there’s. Any Tax we charge on oil finds in this country can be written off by the big oil companies and we charge no royalties – it’s a joke! We now know that Ireland is sitting on a wealth of oil and gas – the constant new finds are proving that time and time again. This Cr** of it being too big a risk for potentially nothing is spread about by the oil companies to make the people of Ireland believe it’s not worth the bother – I mean why would they tell us the truth – in doing so they’ve more to gain than loose. We deserve at the very least to be making much much much more money off these resources than we currently are, we owe it to the people of Ireland and the future generations – time to stop being scared Ireland and stand up for yourself!

Fintan O’Toole had a good suggestin in relation to this. Bring i the norweigan Governemtn. They’re the world leaders in oil exploration and drilling. Offer them a split of the profits instead of the banana republic deals enriching the oil companies we give out at present.

Not a bad idea, the Norwegians are known for being rich because they have all the fish, all the oil and all the trees, all of which seem to be abundant natural resources in Ireland too.
However we gotta play by the rules of the EU, Norway doesn’t.

Norway is rich because of it oil and only its oil. Their government tax oil companies at 90% and reinvest that money into their economy, primarily education.

@Paddy re Norway not having to play by the EU rules Smyth had an interesting article in the Times a few weeks ago proving that the opposite is the case http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0714/1224320062115.html

And for the likes of Saudi and Norway they can afford to tax higher because the likelihood of large finds is higher … if it looks as if Ireland is becoming a much more reliable source for oil then change the tax structures but lets not forget that this is one of the first commercial viable oil finds in Ireland and its not like the companies have been looking since the start of the summer its taken years …. so I’d agree with people who say that it is not credible to say that the state should have a publicly funded oil exploration company because the likelihood of success isnt comparable to the Middle East or Norway

‘all the oil, all the fish, all the trees’ ..yes, lets plunder that and to hell with the environment and our kids

I agree with Jay. If and when Ireland becomes a more reliable source for oil then we can start charging these firms a lot more. Until then the difficulties and costs involved in oil exploration in Ireland are high enough to scare off the oil companies if we tax them too high.

Avaras do you work in the oil industry. We had a state owed oil company & it was sold. We have one oil refinery in the country. Its so small it cant supply the country. The reason the oil companies have all the aces is because they are oil companies. If they dont make enough they leave it in the ground. An oil rig costs about 1 million per day while drilling. Its a hughly labour intensive business. Get in the Norwegians i hear ye say. Do the research. Do ye think a non eu state will help the eu for free. The beauty of the journal is people that know nothing about the subjects get to make sh##e comments about things they know nothing about. The only thing we can expect from this oil is jobs better opertunities for the service industry in Cork & thats it. The Irish people own this oil? What a load of sh#t. Do the Iraq people own their oil? Germany & the eu own the barryroe field. Do your research. Then let the oil companies come get it out & let a select few in cork & the irish oil sector make money & forget about it. Its time to grow up in this country.

No, I don’t work in the oil industry.I never took heroin either but I still have an informed opinion on it.

My first cousin has worked on both oil rigs and major oil fields for the past 22 years in the North Sea,Nigeria,Mexico and Saudi Arabia.My uncle also works for a very successful Irish run oil company in Britain. I’d say I have a greater insight into the industry than most people because of them.Your ad hominem and badly written argument was interesting.

I have to pick you up on a few points.You talk about the EU?What has the EU got to do with Irish oil?We are still supposedly a sovereign nation so we can deal with whomever we want including the Norwegians!If we made more profit from the oil industry (higher oil tax) we could pay off the Germans and the EU and get them off our backs quicker!And who said anything about getting help for free?We would of course pay for expertise and then train our own people, unless you don’t think Irish people can run an oil company?Well, I do!You may want to RESEARCH Aidan Heavey of the highly successful Tullow Oil yourself.

Oil rigs cost between $200,000 and $800,000 a day to run but it depends on the outflow of oil.For example if you have a huge rig producing 50,000 barrels a day that may cost you serious money but we would not need huge rigs as we don’t have that much oil (or we don’t know we have it yet!).Also the rigs pay for themselves over time.If the state hadn’t sold off this Ballyroe field we would have 1.6 billion barrels of oil equating (at todays price of $104 which is very low) tto a whopping $166,400,000,000 over time!!!We cant afford to invest in our own oil industry and WE CAN’T AFFORD NOT TO!!!

Also we are not talking about Iraq or anybody else’s oil, we are talking about Irish oil!That oil is our natural resource and we get virtually nothing from it!If the oil companies don’t want the oil on our terms (our tax levels) then let them leave it in the ground!!With your attitude we should just cave in to big business and take what scraps they leave us.If our government thought long term and actually had some balls to take a risk we could end up a very wealthy little country just like Norway!

Avarus again its not my attitude its the facts. As you have relatives in Saudi tell us who controls that oil. I have friends in Kazakhstan & their people dont control that oil. I never spoke about oil producing rigs only exploration rigs. There will be money earned by the government from this but not on your scale. You reckon its better in the ground than creating work. I disagree. If you think a huge revenue can be earned where is all the North sea money gone. I have serviced some of this field & the revenue you speak of does not exist. You also talk about $104 a barrel? Do you think thats how much these oil companies are getting for it. That price includes everything including speculation. We get one good result off the coast of Ireland & we think we are Saudi. Ffs grow up. The main money from this will be jobs & growth in the Cork area & some money for the exchequer. I doubt we will pay the bank debt with it.

Oh really? It didn’t do any harm to Argentina when they seized control of Repsol. Repsol’s shares fell by around a fifth, in other-words the profits were repatriated to Argentina.

We don’t need them to invest, we can do it without them.

Honestly, do you have the slightest notion about how the oil industry or any industry for that matter works?? You can’t just go around tearing up contracts, it doesn’t bode well for future investment. Particularly as Ireland is heavily reliant on multi-nationals. Please inform yourself before commenting and making yourself look like and idiot.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ecfb241c-889d-11e1-a526-00144feab49a.html#axzz21dDvtK3S

Ah poor Ross doesn’t seem to be able to carry on a debate without resorting to personal insults. The reason for this is because of the weakness of his argument.

I’m well aware of how the Oil industry operates. I’m aware of how they operate in Iraq, I’m aware of how they operate in Nigeria and in other countries.

They operate for profits. What I’m arguing is for the state to takeover their operations and for all profits to be used for the benefit of everyone on this Island. Rather than to enrich already rich people.

Put simply, they have no right to that oil, and no one had any right to give it to them.

Wow, you didn’t read anything I said

The only slight problem with that approach would be the inconvenience of constitutionally protected property rights which also prevents the government from ripping up your contract and kicking you out of your house

I would suspect that if Providence didnt go to the High Court straight away for return of the oil field they’d be looking for mega compensation for the breach and would get it

Plus you’d have issues with the EU who are in the process of levying trade sanctions against Argentina …

I think taking the oil field over would be hugely popular with the people of Europe and it would give them confidence, and encourage the formation of new political trends to carryout similar policies in their own countries.

The constitution is a piece of paper. We can write a new one. The legal and political rights of Ireland and Eurrope are set up to protect the property of the wealthy, obviously seizing an oil field would infringe these privileges. But the gap between rich and poor has grown too much, and the property rights (privileges) of the wealthy should be challenged.

I’d advocate going beyond just seizing one oil field but I don’t see why it couldn’t be part of a European wide trend.

@ Dave Gaughran – “The constitution is a piece of paper”.

Well there you go? Who cares about the rights of the people or guarantees contained in the constitution or any of the laws passed by the state in its near 100 years of existence? Sure, aren’t they all just pieces of paper to be ripped up and rewritten when they prove inconvenient to some part of society. And could you tell me who exactly will do the rewriting? I suppose you’ll nominate yourself since you seem to have all the answer.

So if sombody guns you down in the street, or injures somebody in your family, or burns down your house, or puts you in prison without any trial, can they also refer to this “piece of paper” argument with regard to the rule of law.

@Jim Walsh

Oh for pity sake Jim, these documents are held up on high and hugely mystified. You’d think they were ordained by god to hear you go on.

Unfortunately your communist paradise sounds good but would leave us in the stone age. You really don’t have a clue about how the world works.

@Ross

“You really don’t have a clue about how the world works.”

I’m sure this was the war cry of many a conservative!

I’m not conservative but I am a realist. You have simply dismissed other people’s arguments without reason or pointing out why they are wrong. Your whole argument hinges on the hope that other countries follow suit – good luck with that, what a ridiculous proposition. And even if they did, like I said it would leave us in the stone age.

Yes you are a realist that sees what exists but that doesn’t see the possibilities for change, in other words you are a conservative.

“Your whole argument hinges on the hope that other countries follow suit – good luck with that, what a ridiculous proposition.” Yes just like they followed suit in Venezuela, just like they followed suit in Bolivia, just like they followed suit in Argentina, to name a few, I know history is just ridiculous isn’t it.

Hey and don’t knock the stone age, there is a reason it lasted for 30,000 centuries!

Oh yeah I forgot Venezuela and Bolivia are doing fantastically!! All that oil wealth has brought the crime rate in Venezuela right down. Nationalising companies has made Bolivia great friends in high places such as the US. It too is a beacon of light for all the other countries in the world.

Dream on Dave, I admire your optimism. The thing is you called me a realist which implicitly means you accept that you’re a dreamer. There’s a reason the stone age lasted so long – because people were stuck in it. Like I said your communist paradise is great on paper it just doesn’t work when you actually set about running such a system. I’m all for change but change that works.

The Bolivian people never had any friends in high places in the US, just cold calculating people with false smiles trying to figure out new ways to exploit them, at least now they know what lies behind those smiles.

Realist? I called you a conservative. Or to be more precise a conservative realist. I am a realist. I soberly see the way things really are but I also see the possibilities for change. Why not be honest and say that you are for change provided that it leaves the present inequalities intact?

The reason the stone-age lasted for so long was because it was fantastically stable. If it was so miserable why is it that newly discovered peoples who have remained hunter-gatherers are always reluctant to leave their ways?

Thanks to Chavez investing oil profits in food and other social programs the poor of Venzuela are doing a lot f-ing betting than the poor of Columbia and other right-wing US puppet states who have “friends in high places”

Cop on Ross. A bit of perspective goes along way.

I think you’re the one who needs a bit of perspective when you’re advocating going down the same path as Venezuela and Bolivia. Venezuela has far bigger oil reserves than Ireland and might be able to give the finger to the US for the foreseeable future. Unfortunately, and this is the point you’re not getting, Ireland does not have the oil wealth of Venezuela. It does not have a reputation for reliably producing vast quantities of oil. This is the first commercially exploitable oil resource in Ireland. Don’t kill the golden goose before it has laid its eggs. And don’t bite the hand that feeds.

What you’re not getting is how capitalism actually works. You’ve bought into the b.s that came along with the austerity treaty about “reputation” “international standing” and “stability”.

Even the right-wing economists understand that the market goes buys what’s there to be bought, regardless of all the nonsense of sucking up to Europe. Hence the state would have been able to get money from somewhere. Similarly it’ll be able to sell it’s oil somewhere, even undercutting others (which is still better than giving it all to Shell or whoever).

The US is the largest consumer of Venezuelan oil. The same US that brands Venezuela a dangerous state and attempts to overthrow Chavez constantly, yet their companies buy his oil. The argument that they wouldn’t buy ours because we don’t have enough is hilarious. They’ll buy it once it’s available. For a capitalist, you should really learn more about capitalism.

The only time political sanctions really come into effect and geo-politics trumps the market is when two countries or spheres of power are on the verge of all out war, and even then the corporations pay little heed.

That’s a very good argument and I’d be willing to concede defeat if it actually addressedthe issues at hand. Where does the money come from to drill for oil? How much oil do we actually have?? Should the government invest billions in drilling for oil only for us to find out we have very little oil reserves? I’ve come across a lot of left wing people like you who present what appear to be good arguments and only when you read them again you realise you’ve completely side stepped the issue. Anyway when you come up with an answer to my questions please get back to me.

I wouldn’t describe myself as a capitalist either

Ross Bowe; people are using real world examples like Argentina and Norway. The only real reason we’re not following that example is because we’re a bunch of paddy men who make excuses like that.

Correlation does not imply causation, Derek.

This find is more to do with the price of oil than the state of the Irish economy. It has nothing to do with us being in a weakened position and allowing strong-arm tactics. There is no cheap and easy oil in Ireland.

What an increased oil price does is:
- Make oil fields in deeper seas, under harder rock, more economically viable to pull out
- Increase the (already significant) profit margins on easily extracted oil
- Allow those increased profits to be fed into investment in new sources and risky exploration

However, oil exploration technology is moving on, out of necessity to extract from new sources. The feedback data on the Providence find will give them a better understanding of our seabed, and presumably they will be better able to target blocks in the future.
Our exploration and extraction licenses were suitable for 15-20 years ago, but now should be revisited with slight adjustments in favour of the state. If any momentum in finds were to pick up, we could then look at more equitable reward sharing to correspond with decreasing risk for oil exploration companies.

Actually I think the last thing we need is to give away a resource that if properly managed, could mean the end of the recession.

I wasnt advocating the willy nilly extraction nor rashly giving the drilling away for basically free.

I was more getting at why the govt would not be able to justify the capital cost of investment in a state owned oil producing company. obviously there is a large profit to to be made but it comes down to the same reason they dont build the large hydo/electrical plants. Money. they dont have it. I wish they did and i wish the country would reap the benefits but unfortunately not.

my comment in relation to someone doing it for free was meant ironically

Lets not forget that this is the 5th commericial find in Irish waters (corrib and 3 kinsale wells) and the first to find oil. That is out of about 130 test drills. Now much of that was in the 70s. But say today we wanted to drill 130 wells the cost would probably be more then the value of the extractable resources of the well (about 18% of total) of the Ballinrobe field. So basically Ireland is averaging 1 in 26 sucessful strikes. Or around 1 every 8 years. Norway strike rate is around 1 in 4. So not really very fast.

I have done research, I don’t just listen to media hype. I know there are bad decisions and bad accidents caused as a result of oil leakages and what not, but the fact of the matter is I would be a hypocrite if I said I hate oil companies and still live in the comfort and luxury they provide. Anybody that has commented here has used an internet connection via mobile, tablet or computer, what are these made of? plastic, what is plastic made from? oil! The fact of the matter is we need them unless you live in one of the rain forests huts you are dependent on oil companies for everyday things.

So Aoife, as someone who is claiming special expertise here, are you saying that you think it’s right that the Irish people, who own where the oil has been found, should get nothing, as in the current arrangement?
I’m not talking about (vastly offset) tax revenues that everone pays anyway, but actually part of the direct revenue.

Aoife – ban on. Recent research by the IMF ‘ We also suspect that the assumption that technology is independent of the availability of fossil fuels may be inappropriate, so that a lack of availability of oil may have aspects of a negative technology shock.’ Oil is going to run out/or the EROEI will become prohibitive. We should leave it in the ground and start looking at long term alternatives

Dave go and read up on stuff before talking rubbish. It is clear that you haven’t a clue about what’s really going on.

Where is this media hype against oil companies? I’d love if there was media hype against oil companies. The sad fact is that there isn’t any such hype.

Apologists for corporations always put the bad side/the ill effects (externalities I believe they call them) of a corporation down to “bad decisions” or down to mere “accident,” you know the idea that there is nothing systematically wrong , it’s all down to a few bad apples. Of course it isn’t the quest for every greater and greater profits that creates the conditions that results in these accidents and bad decisions. They are just honest to god mistakes now move along nothing to see here.

As for Oil companies providing comfort and luxury? You see what you are doing here is spoiling your argument by going too far, by going into the realm of the unbelievable. What you should have done is stopped before you reached this point, because it is indeed ironic that you complained about hype being used against oil companies, but then felt the need to use some of this hype yourself.

Just to make things clear I never stated I had special expertise, I simply said I have done research and studied this area, I am no expert just trying to keep informed.

I can’t change the current arrangement, I’m saying the Irish government doesn’t have the resources or funds to start searching for oil. It’s not right the Irish people don’t get huge benefits from the oil found on our shores but Turkeysforchristam ( too scared to use a real profile) trying to make me look like the bad guy on a public forum isn’t going to change anything, take it to people who can make the change just just type shit into the computer.

I’m all for renewable resources.

Not hype, pure fact! Plastic is made from oil no two ways about it, stating a fact isn’t giving into hype.

Aoife there is little or no point in arguing with these guys. They’re basically fundamentalists and like fundamentalists presenting them with facts will not help your case because they choose to ignore them.

Cheers Ross :) I’ll leave it at that so.

Jim Walsh. You get Comment of the Month.

Brilliant.

Surely if all profits from the oil went to the irish sate not shell the people wouldn’t mind? Theres bound to be sone compromise! Better than shell taking the profits!

A chara, they are one of the top electricity providers in Europe. Far ahead of the privatised companies on the continent you preside over regular blackouts.

As for the salaries – yes those of the top brass are exorbitant. But clearly by paying their lower-paid staff well they are creating a good job satisfaction and the people who work their are dedicated and do a good job as a result. Not everything is about sqeezing the most productivity for the least wage. That model has been proven to fail the human being. Just look at China where the extreme of it is applied and you have people committing suicide rather than go on working long hours for nothing.