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THE OIREACHTAS IRISH language committee met again this week to continue debating a bill that seeks to strengthen Irish-speaking services across the country.
The Official Languages (Amendment) Bill 2019 aims to supplement legislation enacted in 2003 which formally placed the provision of State services in Irish on a statutory footing.
The bill was approved by Cabinet last October, following a commitment in the Programme for Government to empower Irish-speaking citizens and to allow those without fluency in Irish to feel confident enough to use the language on a regular basis.
Its arrival has been belated – changes to the 2003 Act were first mooted in 2011, but it was eight years before legislation got off the ground – and its passage comes as speakers continue to experience difficulties engaging with the State through Irish.
In 2019, An Coimisinéir Teanga, whose office monitors compliance by public bodies under the Official Languages Act, received over 700 complaints from members of the public.
They included complaints about broad policy failures, such as a local authority’s decision not to issue a language condition for a housing development in the Gaeltacht, to everyday problems like state bodies not recognising the síneadh fada in people’s names.
General Secretary of Conradh na Gaeilge Julian de Spáinn explains how Irish continues to be undermined by a lack of services, despite being the first language of the State.
“It’s very hard for somebody in the general public to know what level of Irish they can expect from a public body and how they can use Irish with them,” he tells TheJournal.ie.
“There is a huge gap in terms of what’s needed. Sometimes it’s just the simplest thing. I tried to get a passport form and I had to go to three Garda stations and a post office before I finally got to form in Irish.
“None of the people I spoke with could speak to me in Irish. Then the Passport Office told me I had the wrong form.
“Why would anybody try to spend extra time looking for something in Irish if that’s the level of service they get? It’s just not good enough.”
The proposed legislation is seeking to rectify some of these issues.
If passed, it would ensure that 20% of new recruits to the public service would be competent in Irish by the end of 2030, and would require public bodies to recognise the use of the síneadh fada where it is used in Irish-language names and addresses.
It would also establish a statutory Irish Languages Services Advisory Committee to increase and improve the provision of services in Irish throughout the country.
However, the bill has been criticised by speakers, language groups and officials for not going far enough to address problems with the status of Irish in the State.
In an annual report carried out by his office in 2019, An Coimisinéir Teanga Rónán Ó Domhnaill warned that the proposed legislation was, in some ways, not fit for purpose.
In particular, he noted that the bill contained no provisions to place a duty upon the State to ensure that those in the Gaeltacht should be well-served by services in Irish.
“I am of the opinion that the bill, as it currently stands, does not adequately address some of the most important issues relating to the provision of public services through Irish and protecting the language rights of the community,” Ó Domhnaill wrote.
TDs have sought to address these issues by tabling hundreds of new amendments that would strengthen the rights of citizens to use Irish.
Among the proposed changes to the bill are requirements for all public bodies to ensure that members of the public can communicate with them in Irish, and that workers in the Gaeltacht should have the right to conduct their work through Irish.
One amendment seeks to ensure that consumers in the Gaeltacht could be served in Irish and to provide all those entitled to be educated in Ireland with the right to be taught in Irish.
Another seeks to re-introduce Irish as a requirement to qualify as a solicitor or barrister from 2025, and to make competence in Irish essential to be appointed as a Supreme Court judge.
But this too has led to more delays: a specific pledge by the Government that the bill would be enacted by the end of 2020 was not met after the Oireachtas was unable to process all of the amendments bilingually before then.
What’s more, the Oireachtas committee’s debates on these amendments can only take place during a two-hour window due to Covid-19 restrictions.
Only 45 of hundreds of proposed amendments have been debated over five sessions so far. The vast majority of these have been rejected by the government as being too costly.
Regardless, speakers believe the proposed legislation is a step forward and that despite delays, it is better late than never.
“It would do a lot for people being brought up through Irish or people just trying to function with it in the Gaeltacht, because they see the status of their language as second grade,” de Spáinn says.
“We see it as a good step forward. There is a lot of people out there, inside and outside of the Gaeltacht, who would like to use Irish more. And surely they should be able to do that within the State.”
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Force it on everyone because we know that worked in the past
@David Saunders: its ours so let’s do something about it and be proud of it
@David Saunders: While I agree with the sentiment express in the last part of your sentence, there is nothing I read here which says that the language will be forced on everyone.
@Earth Traveller: it already is forced in our schools though.
The whole approach is wrong, more often then not people leave school with more French or German then Irish.
@Barry Somers: it’s going to be difficult for people to get a drift or the Irish language, when they already struggle with the daily use of English. It’s than, then than again.
@JG: so you’ve nothing to add?
Thought not.
Rather than address the clear issues with Irish in our education system you try belittle a person.
You wouldn’t happen to be an Irish teacher would you?
@David Saunders: good point David. I hated Irish in School because it was rammed down our throats in secondary school the class rebelled and the teacher had a breakdown the stand in teacher just spoke about his worldly adventures not a screed of Irish was spoken. The mad thing is i speak Spanish and very little Irish I can speak greetings in several languages but when put on the spot to greet in Irish I struggle. I would love to be fluent in Irish and don’t believe I should have to pay to learn it.
@Barry Somers: Yes, there were many issues with how Irish used to be taught badly.
(In fairness I wouldn’t have taken that comment up as “belittling” anyone. We all had some bullying teachers. It doesn’t mean that everyone is like that. If I said 2+2 = 3 online, & someone says no, it’s 4, they’re only setting my mistake straight. They aren’t having a go at me.)
@Barry Somers: Ceap mé go raibh pointe @JG an soléir: tá fadhbanna agat le Béarla freisin. And no, I’m not a teacher of Irish, which – if that’s your version of a put-down – is an indicator of why you might be illiterate in two langues.
@Fachtna Roe: *languages
@Earth Traveller: Well lots of people from my generation had the sh1* belted out them about Irish and catechism!
@Barry Somers: that is changing a lot with curricular development, at primary level at least, major overhaul of leaving cert required.
@Fiona Fitzgerald: its not just an issue with how Irish is taught. Its how all languages are taught. Children could be learning 3 languages from primary school onwards and it should be immersion teaching. Children have the capacity to learn multiple languages relatively easily if they are exposed to the language early and it is taught the correct way. We don’t need to be teaching children written grammar until they have learned to speak it then teach them to read it and then write it. Gaelscoils use immersion teaching for Irish (no English spoke at all for the first 1 to 2 years of school) yet by 2nd class their results in English are consistently better than results in English speaking schools. The method used for teaching them Irish in the first 2 years also helps them learn other languages more quickly.
@Barry Somers: that’s not because it’s compulsory though, it’s because there is a negative attitude and it is taught as a school subject to be endured rather than as a living language. It should be used in the classroom as part of the general curriculum from the start
@Pat Andrews: give it a decent burial.
@David Saunders:
Well it certainly worked for our English conquerors.
Waste of money, let those who wish to speak Irish do so, but making it mandatory for certain jobs other than teaching is crazy. It shouldn’t even be a mandatory subject in school, but hey let’s waste more money creating the illusion that we all love and speak Irish.
@The Firestarter: that’s the whole issue, those of us who want to speak Irish are unable to do so because of the lack of state services available as Gaeilge. If a waste of money is your concern, look at where big money is actually being wasted.
@Cardigan Backyardigan: that’s a non sequitur argument. Waste in public services is a problem. Forcing all public services at point of entry to support a language that is at best, niche, and wasteful – not just financially, but will introduce discrimination against the majority of Irish people educated in this country. Irish will never become the lingua franca in Ireland, and our version of English, which we should equally be proud of, enables us to be a factor on the world stage.
@Cardigan Backyardigan: no state services available in Ogham either :(
@Daniel Wilson: because noone speaks ogham, smartarse.
@Cardigan Backyardigan:
those of us who want to speak Irish are unable to do so because of the lack of state services available as Gaeilge.
Thats just absolute nonsense…there is nothing stopping you wanting to speak irish ….nothing…..the lack of state services….such horsehshit….what % of your average day / week / month is spent engaging with state services exactly….do you spend all your time trying to pay motor tax or applying for passports or what exactly …….this is a red herring and is typical of the nonsense arguments ….by all means take the language and try make it flourish if thats your thing….but spare us the nonsense that the lack of as gaeilge in accessing state services – thats just code for can we please have more cushy jobs in the civil service or state agencies created for irish speakers…and you know it.
@Brynþór Patrekursson: The argument of @Cardigan is cogent. It is your own bias that sees it otherwise; which you incontrovertibly acknowledge by your assessment of what is “wasteful”. In addition, your very British argument that – in effect – we’re better off bowing our neck to the invader and giving up our heritage because they’ve already managed to get so far along the process of invasion is offensive. The rather moronic suggestion of benefits of being English including a position “on the world stage” is redolent of the patting-a-puppy-on-the-head-to-encourage-loyalty approach to Ireland favoured in London, though no suggestion is made to stop using English. Our position, for what it’s worth, will not be affected by having pride in ourselves. Any position comes from more than language.
@Dave Hammond: You wouldn’t be long complaining if you were unable to access services in your language. Apart from which, your argument is the usual invaders hypocritical way of insisting that everyone being like you is somehow best for everyone. “Absolute nonsense” describes well your position, as does any suggestion that it might be anything other than the absence of wherewithal on your part might be limiting your civil service or other employment opportunities.
@Fachtna Roe: Fachtna abú!
@Cardigan Backyardigan: you can speak vulcan if you want but don’t force the rest of us to do something we don’t want to do.
I was forced to do an Irish class every single day from when I was 4 years old until I left secondary school in at 17. Its was a total waste of time I’d maybe know about 50 words. We also got beaten with a stick from a Christian brother to learn that language.
I have no problem with anyone who wants to learn irish but forcing what is clearly a waste of time on those who have no interest is wrong.
Tharr barr! The Systematic Eradication of Irish Language & Culture by England was methodical & calculated, so any bill that would serve to bolster Gaeilge will naturally need to be far-reaching. Delighted that the Irish Legal System is finally becoming de-anglicised. We are sovereign how many years now?
@Cardigan Backyardigan: Ireland isn’t sovereign. That’s an illusion. It’s far from it. Ireland is run by unelected politicians who are under German’s rule
@Cardigan Backyardigan: “Delighted that the Irish Legal System is finally becoming de-anglicised.” How is that happening? Not trying to start an argument, I am just curious. Our system, like those in some other countries, is based on English law practice.
@Earth Traveller: it is more or less identical to English & Wales at present. What’s embarrassing is Irish Courts often look to English Court rulings for guidance on law. So demanding that incoming Lawyers can speak Irish is a step in de-anglicising the Legal System.
@backupanytime: last time I checked I voted for my politicians but dont let facts obfuscate your narrative.
@backupanytime: oh lord , these comments are so funny .. bunch of .
@backupanytime: you need to stop listening to people that think brexit was a good idea. If you think Ireland is run by unelected people you don’t understand a thing
@Cardigan Backyardigan: Personally I’d welcome some Brehon law decisions as being more of a civilised precedent. I suppose fluent translation is a start.
@Cardigan Backyardigan: Why is your comment in the language of the despicable oppressor?
@mmz: Why is yours? Is it the way you aren’t able to only comprehend more than one language?
@Cardigan Backyardigan: it’s not – it is discrimination against those who did not or don’t want to learn a second language that is used by barely anyone. Most people who say they can speak Irish cannot. You can flog a dead horse but it won’t bring it back to life. It would be far better to replace compulsory Irish with an optional Irish studies course and teach students basic phrases, seanfhocal and how the Irish language has influenced our English phraseology
It should be a subject that can be by choice.. my daughter could benefit a lot more by doing a subject that she excels at.. she struggles with Irish and will be forced to end up possibly with a lesser points simply because of being forced to do a language she does not even want to learn. It maybe important for some, but forcing it on is is a mistake, and because of this I have never looked at it again since leaving secondary school, and I hold it responsible for pressuring me to try and study for a subject that I struggled with..
@Roman Walczak-Sadlowski: The same argument could be said of Maths, English etc. Where do you draw the line? Leaving Certificate Maths or English have no grounding in realworld applications of either subject.
Outside of Gaeilscoileanna, the teaching standard Gaeilge is horrific. It is the syllabus and not the pupil that is at fault.
@Cardigan Backyardigan: With all due respect, you couldn’t even attempt to equate Irish with the same importance as English or Maths.
@The Firestarter: I didnt – if you actually read my comment, you’d find that I said the syllabus for either maths or english are not geared towards the real world.
@Cardigan Backyardigan: they 100% are! Not even acknowledging this makes a lot of subsequent point moot.
@Cardigan Backyardigan: The method in which they are taught and the way the curriculum is designed is bad (LC is outdated and needs reform). However, maths and English do teach you important life skills. They aren’t perfect as I said but the things we learn we apply every day in some shape or form since finishing secondary school. I agree with there being a higher importance put on the likes of philosophy, economics, political science, current affairs, civic duty, etc. Within schools but as I said it needs reform.
@Brynþór Patrekursson: Just as your arguments here and elsewhere indicate we may safely set aside your ‘points’.
@Roman Walczak-Sadlowski: And does this daughter know that you’re publicly discussing her academic failings with complete strangers? To make a trivial point that speaks more to *your* failings? Nice.
@Mike Howard: I’m half Slavic half Nordic and I speak fluent Irish, even done all my subjects for the JC and LC in Irish. I’m the co-founder of the most popular Irish dictionary app, focal.ie, and I work as a localization developer through lionbridge as a contractor translating and testing government websites and apps. Also tutor Irish to people of all age groups down south and up north
@Mike Howard: I’m half Slavic half Nordic and I speak fluent Irish, even done all my subjects for the JC and LC in Irish. I’m the co-founder of the most popular Irish dictionary app, focal.ie, and I work as a localization developer through lionbridge as a contractor translating and testing government websites and apps. Also tutor Irish to people of all age groups down south and up north
@Johan Andersson: Maith thú!
@Cardigan Backyardigan: The teaching standard in Gaelscoileanna is awful as well.
But even then, I don’t understand why its teaching as a subject is being brought up in article about language rights.
Having to speak a language you never really learned to get accepted into particular professions sounds like bullying, cohesion and totally wrong
@Marc Power: Bíonn dhá theanga oifigiúil againn sa tír seo, An Ghaeilge agus Sacs-Bhéarla. Ní bhím in ann seirbhisí a fháil trí mo theanga féin i mo thír féin. Is fadhb mór é sin.
Ba chóir céadatán áirithe a bheith líofa as Gaeilge. ‘Is maidir le do phointe, an mbeidh mé post a fháil sa stáitseirbhís le Gaeilge amháin? Dar liomsa gur Tadhg an dá thaobhachas é sin! Tabhair cothrom na Féinne dúinn in ainm Chroim!
We have 2 official languages in this country, Irish and English. I struggle to get service in my own language in my own country. This is a problem.
A certain percentage of civil servants should have fluent Irish. And to address your point, would I be able to obtain a job in the civil service, if I only spoke Irish? That’s the double standard! Be fair!
@TheJournalAsGaeilge: Why the translation? It defeats the whole purpose of your comment as well as giving a semblance of rationality to an otherwise quite insane argument which if presented an gaeilge would allow the average reader to ignore it more quickly.
@David Jones: That’s probably the height of your intellectual abilities right there; to think it’s all down-hill from here for you.
@mmz: Mar tá Éireannaigh dea-bhéasach. Sin cinn de na rudaí nach dtuigeann Sacsanaigh go deo.
@mmz: Goidé do chás?
What’s your point?
@David Jones: Gallbhách. Bíonn boladh caca ortsa toisc go mbíonn tú ag lí tóin na nGall.
Anglophilllle. The aroma of excrement is on you due to consistently massaging the posterior of the English with your tongue
@mmz: because Mims I read it in Irish and you read it in English. That is the point.
@TheJournalAsGaeilge: Is maith liom do chuid Gaeilge. Dathúil ach simplí. Buíochas!
@TheJournalAsGaeilge: My point is that I am an Irish citizen, have lived here for 30 years and am as amazed today as I was 30 years ago to see this same old argument being re cycled every three or four months in the media with the exact same result, that the vast majority reject being force fed “patrioism” or “culture” as reasons to support the extremely expensive seemingly bottomless pit of money supplied by successive timid governments to support the loud mouthed cultural fascists trying without any degree of success to force feed the Irish Language down our throats. As Einstein said ” the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.” On the other hand, maybe the real intent is to foster continual social division in the country in an attempt to provide legitimacy to this decades long failed campaign.
@Bramley Hawthorne: táim sásta é sin a cloisteáil!
Glad to hear it!
@mmz: Cuireann sé tuirse ormsa fosta. Ní bhímid ag iarraidh ach comhionnanas a fháil inár dtír féin, ach bíonn cuid mór den mhuintir i gconaí frith-Ghaelach. Ní bheinn in aghaidh stáit nua gaelach a bhunú ar an oileán seo, san iarthar is dócha. Ansin, bheadh Gaeltacht ann do ghaeil a mbíonn suim acu sa teanga, sa chultúr agus san oidhreacht, agus Galltacht do dhaoine a mbíonn gráin acu do gach rud a bhaineann leis an nGaelachas. Bíonn buntáistí an dá thrá ag an smaoineamh sin, nach dóigh leat?
It wears me out too. We’re just trying to get equality in our own country, but there’s so many people here who are always so anti-Gaelic. I wouldn’t be against establishing a new Gaelic state on this island, probably in the west. Then, there would be a Gaelic state for Gaels who are intersted in the language, culture and heritage, and there would also be a “Galldom” for people plagued with a hatred for all things relating to Irishness. The best of both worlds don’t you think?
@mmz: 30 years? Poor you. We’re at this 300 years, and more, and won’t be stopping any time soon. Being Irish isn’t merely a matter of having a piece of paper with that printed upon it. The very fact that you need to clarify your “citizenship” demonstrates that, and clearly.
@TheJournalAsGaeilge: why? You clearly understand English, there are more Polish speakers in this country than irish speakers it would make more sense to have Polish as our second language
I don’t understand how Irish is still being taught in the way it is. In school you learn the Irish nouns, the verbs, the grammar rules but not how to have a simple conversation. Who cares about the poetry and Peig! I came out of school better able to speak French than I can Irish and it’s all down to how its taught IMO.
@Keith O’Hanlon: give your methods, the floor is yours
@Pat Andrews: I really think there should be two subjects. One mandatory one through primary up to Junior cert where all the focus is on conversation and basic grammar structure. An oral exam at Junior cycle would here would do. The other should be optional where it’s exam focused and where the traditional poetry, novels etc. can be examined. It may not be perfect but there is something seriously wrong with the current system where the majority of students have little ability to converse in Irish at the end of their schooling.
@Pat Andrews: method is simple – you teach Irish through Irish not English- it’s called full immersion and it’s the way all babies learn language. Teachers unions would never agree to this though
@Longlin: Taitníonn an smaoineamh sin dom. Ní foirfeach é, ach céim sa dtreo sin. I like that idea. It’s not perfect, but it’s a step in that direction.
I think making Irish obligatory for any position discriminates against the majority population. In addition having Irish language requirements in an organization leads to group think in that a similar type of person with similar beliefs is likely to be attracted. An example of this would be RTE which doesn’t reflect majority Irish culture at all.
@Michael Drennan: Your point being that having one Irish person on staff is bad enough, but the chance you’d attract more is unbearable… do you even hear yourself?
@Fachtna Roe: my point being that more than one “ Gaelgoir” especially everyone being one leads to group think. The majority population are Irish English speakers.Quotas also discriminate against immigrants whose second language would normally be English.
@Michael Drennan: But yet you’re content with the English anti-Irish group-think. I expect most of your social group think the same way. *That* is group think.
But I am more than a bit worried about the inherently racist overtones in your comments. I am reminded of concerns of miscegenation in 1960′s USA, since your points give the impression that one Irish person is for you beyond enough infection, but two is a circumstance to be avoided absolutely.
And you seek to hide behind immigrants, claiming concern for them. It has been my lived experience that immigrants I have dealt with ensure their children learn Irish in school, and respect it themselves.
I see why you hide behind them. They eclipse you.
Are you related to the scribbler in the weekly Fianna Fáil newsletter?
Change how it is taught and remove it as a compulsory subject.
@Jim Lingk: Níl an phointe seo ábhartha.
This point is irrelavant.
@TheJournalAsGaeilge: No, it hits the nail on the head. Irish is poorly taught, make it conversational based then progress the students. I’d love to see primary schools all change to gealscoil. It would give everyone a base in the language.
@TheJournalAsGaeilge: really, are you suggesting that the way a language is taught is irrelevant to a person’s knowledge of that language ?
@David Stapleton: No, ach níl an phointe sin bainte leis an ábhar atá i gceist ag an alt seo. Pointe seanchaite is ea í a mbíonn ar eolas ag cách cheanna féin.
No, but the point is irrelevant to the question at hand in the article. An overused point that everyone already knows.
@Robert Conneely: But that is completely irrelevant to the article. This is about the rights of Gaels to use their language with their own government.
My native language is English- I’ve spoken it since birth. I’ve NEVER needed to speak Irish to get on with my life. I quite like the Irish language as it happens and I’m glad we have signs and stuff but forcing people to speak it won’t work
@Virgil: Neither will denying the rest of us our right to speak our language. (And no, you have not spoken English since birth :)
@Fachtna Roe: Cén fáth a gcaithfidh siad dul i gcion ar Ghaeil? Ní bhainfidh sé leosan.
Why must they impose themselves on us? It won’t affect them.
@TheJournalAsGaeilge: Sin nádúr na Sacsanaigh. :(
It was bashed into us and we hated it, if we had have been thought it like they teach other languages and seen a use for it, then it would have worked.
Wrapping a flag around is cheap and forcing people to learn it to get a job is going backwards.
Also the Gaeilgeoir are a strange bunch condescending in the extreme, I worked with people who were fluent in Irish and they refused to speak it to them. They love the language but not the bullies forcing it down peoples throats.
All that is wrong is the way it is forced on us then and now they are trying to do it again. There are a lot of people who resent the way they were treated when being taught it and those memories are fresh for a large part of the population.
If it was actually taught better in school people might actually learn something.. I hated it at school.. and forcing children to learn it is guaranteed to fail..
@Patricia O’Reilly: hated it in school from the mid fifties onwards forced down our necks with a cane as a weapon those who want it let them have it leave the rest of us out of it
@Patricia O’Reilly: I’ll grant you that in the past, a lot were bad-tempered and didn’t want to teach children. Times have changed, though. There are a lot more likeable Irish teachers now who enjoy teaching children and make lessons enjoyable for students who now have fun using Irish together.
@Patricia O’Reilly: is mise Max.. my daughter in junior infant class seems to be learning how to speak it decently.. including bunch of songs she knows in Irish now and I have been picking up bits and pieces.. so doesn’t seem so badly taught nowadays. Though with schools closed it’s impossible to home school a language no one speaks at home..
@Massimiliano Gallo: Maith thú!
@Massimiliano Gallo: Give DuoLingo a try? 15 minutes there builds the confidence with a new language.
@Fiona Fitzgerald: Smaoineamh maith ach tá seans ann go mbeadh sé ródheacair dá iníon sna naíonáin.
It’s a good idea but it might be too difficult for his daughter in infants.
@TheJournalAsGaeilge: Measaim go raibh @Fiona ag moladh sin do @Massimiliano féin, chun cabhrú leis a iníon? An bhfuil aithne agat ar aon uirlisí ar-line bunúsach a bhféadfar leis úsáid le naíonra?
@Fachtna Roe: ah gabh mo leithscéal.
Bíonn go leor rudaí dóibh ar an suíomh seo.
https://www.cogg.ie/gaeilge/
@TheJournalAsGaeilge: Tá an suíomh sin íontach. Grma.
@Patricia O’Reilly: But that is completely irrelevant to the article. This is about the rights of Gaels to use their language with their own government.
It is second grade. Having left school 30 years ago, I’m delighted to say I have never needed Irish in any shape or form.
If a language can’t survive without life support from the state, then it deserves to wither and die. If enough people want it to survive, then it will without any laws.
I object to my taxes being spent on promoting Irish, when so many other services are struggling .
@Dt125: I object to my taxes paying for the lazy bums on the dole etc
@Dt125: Very unpatriotic. Horrible attitude to have.
@Dt125: Aineolach! Ba teanga an phobail go léir í an Ghaeilge seachas na dlíthe a bhí curtha i bhfeidhm ag na Gallaibh!
Ig..norant! Irish would be the lingua franca except for the laws implemented by the English!
@: ty. Have you ever questioned yourself as to whether your definitions of “patriotism” and “culture” might actually be the result of a state of false consciousness on your part? No, I thought not.
@TheJournalAsGaeilge: Excellant, I can’t understand a word of it.
@mmz: *Excellent
@TheJournalAsGaeilge: *Foirfeach! :D
It’s not . I am just as entitled to my view on Irish as you are. I’m not going to force my views down anyone’s throat and I would hope that you would do the same.
@Dt125: Every language needs support from a state. Would Danish survive if no cultural production was supported, the language of administration was English and it wasn’t taught in schools? For a couple of generations and then it would be like Irish.
People seem to confuse a language with who they are. Im a catholic, I cant speak latin even though it used to be the language of the catholic church. They dropped latin to allow catholics to engage more in their fate, they didnt say you had to learn latin or your not a catholic. Im also a european, yet i dont speak any european languages outside of English. I dont expect germans to speak english to me when im in Germany. If you want to speak Irish then by all means do but this is an english speaking country where a largely unused mode of communication is kept on life support to appease a tiny minority of gaelic speakers.
The vast majority have had up to 13 years of Irish lessons and the vast majority cant string a sentance together in Irish, ie they dont want it and dont care about it. I have no issue with people learning it in their own time and speaking it wherever and whenever they want but please stop wasting tens of millions on shoving it down peoples throats until we have solved the homeless crisis, the healthcare crisis, child poverty, social economic ineaquality, climate issues, etcetcetc. There are many many areas the funds are needed to be spent that are vastly more important than appeasing those trying to hang onto the past.
@Rex Tilson: You don’t expect Germans to speak English in Germany, but you object to Irish speaking Irish in Ireland. Where in England are you from?
@Fachtna Roe: It is not the same and you know it. English is the vast majority of the population’s native language. Are there even any people in the country who can solely speak irish and not also speak English?
@Ronan Fahy: It is exactly the same. It is a fundamental right of an Irish person to speak Irish, especially in Ireland.
@Fachtna Roe: I think helping homeless people, children in poverty, spending money on issues that will reduce our carbon emmissions and try and leave the planet in a habitable condition to mention just three issues among many that are a far better use of our financial resources. I dont think people will be thankful that they can put a basic sentance together “as gailge” when their kids are hungry, or environmental issues are damaging their environment or they cant afford a house over their head or cant afford health insurance so have to suffer the pain of not having a hip replaced for years while they wait on the underfunded public system. But hey as long as a tiny minority can fill in a form in a dying language or go to court and have the whole proceedure in Irish. I am Irish, have traced my family back before the famine when most branches of it were forced out due to hunger, but that wouldnt have mattered to the likes of you back then as long as they could speak Irish.
@Rex Tilson: what a lazy view. Yes those are issues and ones that Irish speakers also experience. But you don’t need to ignore culture and language to address them. When you work on something people will always say ‘why not this’ instead of grasping the basic concept that you can in fact, and should, work on multiple things at once.
And Irish is not dying and is spoken by more and more people each year. The only people who describe it as such are people who don’t speak it and so it doesn’t concern them which is a rather blinkered and selfish view. It’s not important to you, you make that clear, but it is important to many of us and it’s support does not impact on any of the above. You’d want to look to other areas or perhaps devote all of your spare time to then without engaging in any publicly support cultural pursuits. As for the comment that people advocating for Irish wouldn’t have cared about famine time experiences… It’s just a bit daft to be honest. Caring about Irish does not equal being uncaring and it’s hyperbolic to the extreme to suggest as such.
@Rex Tilson: What @Jensen Bhroin said. Plus, the language is not dying despite you playing a part in attempting to kill it.
Let us all redouble our efforts to learn and speak Irish.
Crucial to nation building and we owe it to wide humanity to say;
“This is our language, a repository of our history and it lives despite all”
@Micheál: rogha mol anseo
@Micheál: People learning it are great, but the rights of current speakers being respected would be better.
Was Beaten with A 6 ft came in School forcing Irisj down Mt Thoath don’t mention Iris to Me
@pat seery: Iris should have tried the oul English with you first.
@pat seery: your English instruction was not very successful either. Illiteracy in both languages is hardly a good foundation for your argument. I was beaten more often in school for maths, English and Latin than for Irish. I can still calculate and use enjoy some Latin jokes.
The Irish language is our language. It’s sickening to see such unpatriotic comments here. People are more concerned with money than with our beautiful culture. We must take drastic action. Make childrens education through Irish only and within a few generations the majority of people will have Irish as their first language.
@: several totalitarian states have tried forcing similar dictates on people. It doesn’t end well
@Sara Davis: There is absolutely nothing totalitarian about teaching our children our native language. It is right and proper that it becomes our first language.
@Sara Davis: I agree. Ireland’s had enough of that sort of petty tyranny. Last century we had a whole generation of teachers forced to learn Irish over one summer in order to teach it. They often took it out on the students. And if the orders weren’t issued in Irish, they were given in Latin. That was back when it wasn’t illegal to beat children up. It only held people back educationally. No point in him trying to justify it as “drastic action”. If it had worked well, children would still be suffering the effects.
@Fiona Fitzgerald: Decide who you’re against, please: Ireland or Rome?
@Sara Davis: It is not, by any definition, totalitarian. Of all comments, this is the best way forward and it is unfortunate that it hasn’t been done. There are many things I disagree regarding Israel, however one thing they did get right was having their education completely in Hebrew.
@Sara Davis: Its totalitarian to learn our mother tongue…I’ve heard it all now. What do you make of the fact that we are forced to speak another language every day? Immersing children in a language from young takes no teaching. They are in school anyway. They’d barely even realise they are picking up another language..that’s how well immersion works. We are “forced” to do lots of things in school. Let our mother tongue be one of them. There are literally no downsides to it.
I absolutely love our Irish language and believe it should be encouraged and respected. Unfortunately, the way it is taught in school makes it almost impossible to do that! Young students, learning the language are confronted with so many definitions of what is Gaelic!
The first year they have a teacher from Cork, next it’s Donegal and the following year it’s Connemara. It’s no wonder they’re confused.
@John Fairclough: Bíonn caighdeán ann anois, cosúil le Hochdeutsch.
There’s a standardised version now, like Hochdeutsch in German.
@John Fairclough: once I met a person from London. Another time, I met someone from Brisbane. And, yet another time, I met someone from New York. It’s horrifying that they don’t all speak the same and have the same spellings. It’s really difficult when confronted with so many definitions of what is English. PS: Gaelic is a language family, not a language.
The point over the heads of so many here is painful. This is nothing about ‘how it’s taught’ or the language as a school subject. It’s about putting its Constitutional place as the first official language into practical reality, for the sake of those daily and regular fluent speakers.
If you don’t speak Irish at all, well for ya, but if you feel no-one should be forced to use a language that isn’t their own, then you can say the same for the minority of people whose first language is Irish. Irish will never be the lingua franca of the nation again, but if you think Irish speakers should only use it privately with family and friends, and not be able to access utilities like Bord Gáis or Electric Ireland, or services like Irish Rail or Revenue, in their language of 2 official languages of the state, then congrats – you’re part of the same (post-)colonial attitude that we had under the Crown. Independence was in vain if our language is not amongst the cultural assets we were able to preserve, at least for those who still speak it.
It shouldn’t need reminding to people that Irish isn’t just a mythical language of yesteryear; there’s a sizeable community who are neither civil servant nor teacher, and use the language socially, professionally, or just for themselves. Our taxes support more than just ourselves, and trying to frame it as an economic waste is not only inaccurate, but a cover for a thinly-veiled bias. If you don’t want the infrastructure for Irish speakers today to be able to use the language out from the shadows, then just admit you’d rather see it die altogether. We’d respect that honesty, at least.
@Scott De Buitléir: I see your argument, however I cannot agree with you on a few points. I think the one of the issues is Ireland’s duality. The island itself is split, we are split on what language we speak. To say it has nothing to do with how Irish is taught, is to say “I am not interested in why you don’t speak it, but I do, and I want my rights protected”. This reinforces that duality. Irish should have been the language of primary and then secondary schools, but it wasn’t. The newly birthed state screwed up and has continually screwed up when dealing with our official languages, and has, by consequence, enforced that duality on us.
@David Stapleton: I’m not sure duality is a blocker at all. Canada has a great infrastructure and approach to using both English and French, and while French has an advantage over Irish in that it’s widely spoken around the world, it’s still a minority language of cultural significance in Canada, much like Irish.
Also, your summary of “I am not interested in why you don’t speak it, but I do, and I want my rights protected” is actually spot on. We Irish speakers don’t owe the majority any excuses for wanting to speak our language, just because you had an awful experience of it in school. It is not just a school subject, which to be fair, has improved greatly even since my own days in secondary. It’s not fair, however, to dismiss the desires of a sizeable community because others don’t like the language as it was taught in school.
Only 6000 census forms were completed in Irish..
@Pete Lee: Plus, yours in crayon.
@Fachtna Roe:so according to you Irish census were filled in in crayons…
Oooooooh…. vulgar nasty comment
@David Jones: Óicé a ghall
Amazingly there are very few comments in Irish…
Hmmmmmm.
@Pete Lee: Do you want people to comment in Irish?
@ᑕᑎíᑕᕼI: If I may…. the issue I have with Irish is the presumption we would all speak Irish if given the opportunity. This is wrong. I just don’t like it and have never encouraged my family to speak it. Also the amount of money wasted, in my view, keeping this punctured balloon inflated is obscene.
@ᑕᑎíᑕᕼI: also only 6000 people filled in the census in Irish?
So there are a lot of bluffers out there
@Pete Lee: I’m not sure who is presuming that, but I hear what you’re saying and if you and your family are not into Irish that’s spot on. I have the exact same opinion about having had to sit through and partake in religion classes when I was in school so I understand where you’re coming from. Each to their own.
In my view …their is an opinion that we would all speak Irish if only given the chance.
NO NO No
. Me and my friends got our kids exempted from Irish….
Worth checking how many do..
@Pete Lee: Gallbháigh iad go léir
@TheJournalAsGaeilge: Maybe… ;-)
Am I right or wrong in thinking a certain generation had Irish rammed down their throat or beaten into them? Anytime there’s an article about the Irish language, this statement comes up. I went to a Gaelscoil 35 years ago, so Irish was just my normal everyday language. Along with Irish I wish we’d have been thought a third language from an early age. Did German for four years, can’t even speak it. Still have alot of Irish thankfully.
@ᑕᑎíᑕᕼI: There was a lot of throat-ramming years back, and some people never got over that. Then they’ll show up at the drop of a séimhiú to whinge about Irish, because they never grasped that they were being taught in a rough manner in all their subjects. Others use that as an excuse to blame others for their own failing. If that logic were correct, I shouldn’t have a word of French, but I do have. It’s not great French, but I don’t go back decades looking for someone else to blame for that, and I don’t go looking for opportunities to denigrate those who speak that language.
@Fachtna Roe: it is, or perhaps, was a bit more complicated than that. It was also how it was taught. I cannot comment on how it’s taught today, but in the 70′s and 80′s it was taught like a dead language. No conversational aspects, just poetry and a book. The expectation on entering secondary was that you had a good grounding in Irish, indeed that you had a reasonably high fluency in it. The reality was that most people did not, and so had to sit through Irish, that was, at best, more or less incomprehensible, or at worst, slow psychological torture, as they were put on the spot and asked to read from a book, the language of, they barely recognised.
@Fachtna Roe: Definitely alot of surround strong emotions, both negative and positive attached to Irish, which probably doesn’t do it any favours. I use whatever Irish I have everyday and if a see or know someone with Irish, I try speaking it with them, especially if I see wee ones from a Gaelscoil. I think the more it’s heard outside of school settings and if just used casually, not forced, the more normalised and less stigmatised it becomes.
@David Stapleton: I personally learn languages best through conversation. I didn’t enjoy learning English or Irish poems and pros in school. Would’ve loved a more interactive way of learning. Lots of fun and interesting ways to teach a language, PE through French, singing in Irish ect. Although as one commenter said, being immersed in a language is probably the only way you’ll become almost or fluent in a language. So it all depends on what outcome we’re after, fluent speakers or people who have a genuine grá and interest for Irish and a society that facilitates those who have Irish and would like to use it as their daily living language. Not sure how you go about it
@ᑕᑎíᑕᕼI: Tá sé ráite agat ansin.
Nail on the head.
Big bag of ssssshhhite
@David Jones: I’m glad you feel comfortable enough to come out.
@Fachtna Roe: is maith liom caca milis
@David Jones: I have no doubt you do. But while you enumerate your preferred self-degradations to the world, I think I’ll just have cáca instead.
@Fachtna Roe: Hahaha
@Fachtna Roe: pair of nonces
It’s really difficult to learn a language fluently unless you’ve been immersed from a very young age. Most Irish people have made the decision not to subject their children to that as regards Irish. Therefore it doesn’t matter how many government white papers you publish or how much you force the language on children in school it’s not going to work. The only way to revive the language in any way is to remove the compulsory element and let the language stand on its own feet. It might work – it’s never been tried in the Free State
@Virgil: An don’t be talking sense
@Virgil: Caithfimid seirbhísí a chur ar fáil do dhaoine as Gaeilge agus deiseanna a thabhairt dóibh chun a gcuid Gaeilge a úsáid sa ghnáthshaol.
We must provide services for people in Irish and give them opportunities to use the language in everyday life.
The real way to solve this is to introduce it as mandatory in the education system if teachers do everything in irish all students from low babys up will speak enough irish going into first class to start a full education in irish and through irish by time you get two generations finishing the leaving cert 1/2 of the population + would be semi fluent to fluent in the national language. Most teachers have irish so that’s how you do it kids at low babies age are easier to teach it and make it stick, their minds are more open to learning. Everything done through irish in schools from the begining of the state then 95% of us would be fluent in our language. Low babys should be an introduction to that process. Like it is to school in general.
@Aaron92utd: that was tried. My grandmother taught primary school kids through Irish for twenty-five years and near the end of her life she said: ‘not a word of it spoken in the county after all my work’
@Aaron92utd: Beidh deiseanna chun í a labhairt sa ghnáthshaol ag teastáil uainn fosta.
We would also need to be given opportunities to use it outside of school.
An Gorta Mor was not only the knife through the heart of over a million innocents but the annihilation of the language that both have never recovered nor the Irish Nation over 170 year’s on.
33 Governments and the National Museum of Ireland have expunged and erased this part of Irish history from it’s building. A National Stain of Shame.
In school we need to concentrate on conversational Irish. Not boring students to tears with old poems & stories. Advanced Irish lovers can study that if they want. Give kids/teenagers time in the classroom purely for talking to each other as Gaeilge. “What did you do the weekend” etc. Some people will disagree but my take on making Irish easier is adding more fadas to the language. When you are reading Irish & see 3 vowels together it’s often not apparent which to pronounce. Put fadas over the vowel to be stressed like in Spanish. Languages can evolve & be tweaked. Look at American English, colour/color etc. No big deal. #addmorefadas
the resistance to the use of Irish will diminish as all of those who had it rammed down their throats from their first day at school right up to their last are finally at peace six foot under where leather straps, bamboo canes and flying dusters no longer hold sway.
How is welsh taught in Wales does anyone know. They seem to have a good grasp of their language.
@Sue OB: I réigiúin áirithe, ní bhíonn ACH scoileanna lán-Bhreatnais, agus bíonn deiseanna do dhaoine a gcuid Breatnaise a úsáid sa ghnáthshaol fosta. Bhí clár iontach ar Youtube ón BBC faoin ábhar seo, ach tá sé scriosta anois. https://coveredrachel.wordpress.com/2015/10/06/film-make-me-welsh/
In certain regions, there are ONLY Welsh medium schools, and there are opportunities for people to use their Welsh outside of school too. There was a great programme from the BBC on Youtube but it’s been removed.
@David Jones: Always a ghall.
Madness
Should Ireland take example from Ukraine or Latvia where the governments are doing everything possible to forbid people to speak their mother tongue (russian). Or should we insist that these semi-european countries follow Ireland’s example and accept a foreign nation’s imposed language which all citizens are actually comfortable with?
yawn
@David Stapleton: Is gall é dar liom.
He’s a gall to me.
@Fachtna Roe: I thought that ‘ghal’ meant foreign, and not specifically an anglophile?
@Fachtna Roe: curry sauce
@David Stapleton: I was punning on the Cork/Limerick word “ghoul”, meaning an absolutely irredeemable eejit. The subsequent contributions of the ghoul in question demonstrate the term to be most aptly used.
@Fachtna Roe: nonce
Why not educate our children from primary to secondary school in the Irish language. Make all schools gaelscoils, from playschool through to 6th yr. Full immersion is the best way. My 8 yr old attends a gaelscoil and can already speak more Irish than I ever had.
@Chris Martin: Because very few people actually want to speak Irish
@Pete Lee: Being bi lingual makes it much easier to learn and pick up other languages. There are literally no negatives to learning our national language this way. Plus it has been proven that children who are immersed in and taught about their own heritage and culture are more likely to be open to and more respectful of other cultures so it would help combat racism too.
@Chris Martin: i speak french and german which I use…which is yhe difference
@Pete Lee: The difference is this is Ireland and we are Irish.
@Chris Martin: Chris I honestly cheer anyone that can and does speak Irish – and fair play – that is your choice. The issue I have is when someone else’s choices are being forced on me – I do not need or want the Irish language, it would not help me (IN MY VIEW) in anyway in my business or private life.
@Pete Lee: You don’t have to speak it if you don’t want to and you dont even have to learn it which is fine. Bilinguality is never a bad thing regardless of the language. But let us gift our younger generation by immersing them in their national language and make all schools gaelscoils. There are literally no downsides to it.
@Chris Martin: not for me or mine
@Pete Lee: Slán so!!
bíonn rósanna dearg, ‘s gorm an spéir, is tusa an ghrian ‘s na réaltaí go léir
@ni_ni_s: Oiriúnach don lá seo. Maith thú!
@TheJournalAsGaeilge: rat boy
People need to value the language more, then more people will speak it. Young people don’t care about it one bit. People need to realise this is our language, and without it, what makes us any different from English or American people? Nothing. It’s tragic to see it happening. Half the kids these day talk in American accents and it drives me round the twist.
Tír gan teanga is tír gan anam.
Another one that knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Sad.
@TheJournalAsGaeilge: youre a rrat
Is Maith liom caca milis agus an bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithreas?
@John Lyons: caca milis= sweet faeces
have your say