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LAST UPDATE | 16 Feb 2021
CHILDREN’S MINISTER RODERIC O’Gorman has said the audio recordings of testimony destroyed by the Mother and Baby Homes Commission cannot be retrieved.
O’Gorman said the Commission informed him of the latest development today.
The minister stated: “The Commission have replied today stating that they don’t believe that that material can be retrieved.”
He added that he had “no basis to say that that answer is provided to me in bad faith”.
“I’m assuming it’s a technical answer to a technical question in terms of what can or can’t be done.”
Speaking at a meeting of the Oireachtas Children’s Committee in the Dáil chamber, O’Gorman said it is “problematic” that the Commission maintains it told survivors that the recordings would be deleted while many survivors have said they were not told this in advance.
The minister said witnesses who say there are inaccuracies in how their testimonies are presented in the Commission’s final report can contact his department after the Commission’s archive is transferred to it at the end of the month.
“Any individual who leaves their personal information within the archive is entitled to rely on all the rights of GDPR, including the right to rectification,” he said.
However, opposition members questioned how the record could be rectified if the recordings of around 550 witnesses have been destroyed.
Social Democrats TD Jennifer Whitmore asked O’Gorman: “Can you tell me do you believe that the Commission was within its legal remit to destroy this data? And have you sought legal advice in relation to that?”
O'Gorman says: "In all their communications with me, the Commission have outlined what they believe their rights and responsibilities in the context of GDPR, and the context of data protection are, they said they have acted in good faith in terms of what they did."
— Órla Ryan (@orlaryan) February 16, 2021
The minister replied: “In all their communications with me, the Commission have outlined what they believe their rights and responsibilities in the context of GDPR and the context of data protection are. They said they have acted in good faith in terms of what they did.”
O’Gorman said his department is in ongoing discussions with the Attorney General and the Data Protection Commissioner in relation to this.
He said he has written to the Mother and Baby Homes Commission “to urge them to engage as fully as possible with the Data Protection Commissioner”.
He added “it is really important” that “clarity is given as regards the various processes that were undertaken by the confidential committee”.
"They've given five years of their life and their work to produce the report, but it really cannot end here, and we would urge them not to have it end here," the senator adds.
— Órla Ryan (@orlaryan) February 16, 2021
Fianna Fáil Senator Mary Fitzpatrick said it is “hugely frustrating and disappointing” that the Commissioners haven’t come before the committee.
She asked O’Gorman to ask the Commissioners to “make themselves available on an ongoing basis, and to contribute to the healing that has to take place”.
Extending the Commission’s term
A number of TDs and Senators asked if the Commission’s term could be extended beyond the end of this month in order to answer some outstanding queries.
O’Gorman has indicated the government will not do this, and that his focus is on facilitating access and rectification requests from survivors once the Commission’s database is transferred to his department.
“Looking at the range of considerations that need to be legally put in place in terms of making that call and particularly, my biggest concern is what can I do for survivors.”
Alice-Mary Higgins asks if Commission could hand over archive to O'Gorman's dept at end of month *and* its term be extended to ensure it can work with dept to answer outstanding questions people have. pic.twitter.com/YxfmERQEp9
— Órla Ryan (@orlaryan) February 16, 2021
He said the transfer of the database to his department will provide “a very real and tangible benefit” for survivors.
“I have put on record my concerns about whether that would be possible if there was an extension of the Commission.”
O’Gorman told the committee: “What is foremost in my mind is how can we give the most benefit to survivors.”
He said he wants a “well-resourced unit that can give them the access to the information access that they’ve sought for decades”.
He added that much of this will be “in the context of answering subject access requests, SARs, in a manner that is compatible with GDPR”.
“I believe that it is absolutely crucial to giving survivors information that they don’t already have.”
‘Cold report’
O’Gorman earlier said he understands why survivors of institutions are disappointed in the Commission’s final report.
The minister said: “I know and understand that many survivors have been disappointed and angered by the report, finding its tone and language cold and overly legalistic.
“I recognise that some of the conclusions, grounded in a legal approach and analysis of 1.3 million pages of evidence, can feel removed from the grief, the breach of human rights and the trauma of the lived experience of many former residents.
“I recognise that and am committed to continued engagement with survivors on ways in which we can bear witness to their experience through future research and memorialisation.”
O’Gorman said the report “does not represent a conclusion – rather, it represents the backdrop for the State’s apology to those who have suffered and also a starting point from which we can move forward”.
Crowe says some men have "a lot of soul searching" to do.
— Órla Ryan (@orlaryan) February 16, 2021
He adds that the men who fled the country and/or refused to support the women who got pregnant were "the first cog in this process" that saw females sent away to institutions.
O’Gorman did not address the issue of the audio deletion in his opening statement this afternoon, noting he had outlined his position in a letter to the committee.
In the letter, O’Gorman noted that the final report states: “Witnesses were asked for permission to record their evidence on the clear understanding that the recordings would be used only as an aide memoire for the researcher when compiling the report and would then be destroyed. All such recordings were destroyed after the report was added to the Confidential Committee electronic repository of information.”
However, as stated above, many survivors have said they were never told the recordings would be destroyed.
Tracing and information legislation
O’Gorman also confirmed that the heads of a long-awaited Information and Tracing Bill will be ready by late March or early April.
“Access to birth and early life information, including the birth certificate, is a fundamental issue and a top priority for me as Minister.
“My officials are working intensively with the Office of the Attorney General to advance Information and Tracing legislation, with a view to having Heads of Bill by end March/ early April. I look forward to engaging with the Committee on this crucial legislation,” he stated.
In relation to redress for survivors, O’Gorman noted that the Interdepartmental Group on Restorative Recognition (IDG) held its first meeting on 4 February and “has been tasked with reporting back to me by the end of April”.
“It has been asked to develop detailed proposals for a restorative recognition scheme. Its work must take account of the specific groups identified by the Commission but is not limited to those groups.
“Its work will be underpinned by a human rights focus and informed by strong stakeholder consultation and an understanding of criticism that were made of previous schemes,” the minister said.
With reporting by Cónal Thomas
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They are not Irish, they are ‘Traveller’.
O’Brien, Kiely and O’Reilly being renowned traveller surnames
Well if they are not Irish then we can kick them out of Ireland.
Who will sign my petition?
The Todd..did you see the original article monhs ago? Did you see the TV News Reports from Australia? Obviously not because you would know the truth and not be relying on names to identify the ‘ethnicity’ of these criminals.
Ye some of them were travellers. Not all. But sure you go for it there
All of the surnames you listed are on this list
http://www.travellerheritage.ie/parish_records_of_surnames.asp
Haha that lists covers half the surnames in Ireland. Using your logic, anyone that has those surnames are travellers. Come on now, I know it’s the weekend, let’s not get too crazy though
Pibaldshite
Haha, no todd. Mary was just giving you proof that people with those surnames can be travellers! But dont let that get in the way of your little rant..
What rant exactly? Just because they can be traveller surnames doesn’t mean that they are in this regard. No article I have found makes these three men as travellers. But due to Irish people’s ignorance travellers are the most discriminated against and prejudged people in Irish society. We voted on equality only a few weeks ago yet choose to treat these people as easy targets. I’m in agreement that what’s these lads done is utterly disgusting, but why try to use them as a opportunity to slate all travellers. There’s a rant for you
@The Todd;
Mary Louny did NOT assert that anyone whose name is on the list is a traveller.
The list was introduced to counteract YOUR illogical argument that, because of their names) they were NOT travellers.
Before slagging off other people with “… by your logic…” you would do well to have a look at your own, and also learn what the word actually means!
My apologies, but a list with 70 odd surnames wouldn’t be something I would view as conclusive evidence. There has been nothing to say these men are travellers, so it’s quite presumptuous regardless. I think it was the dig all the community in general that got under my skin
Sorry, it was more of a silly deflection to the fact you were wrong than a rant!. With your logic, anybody with the names O’brien, Kiely and O’Reilly cant be travellers?. I agree with a lot of your comments I see todd, but sometimes you just clearly hate being wrong..
Todd..you obviously have access to the internet..go find the original TV news reports and then come back here and inform us that the group involved are not travellers. Don’t be so lazy, do some research before criticising others.
As I said above, some of them were travellers. Sorry maybe I am wrong but it just annoys me how quick people are to slate all travellers with the actions of a few. I’ll take my outrage elsewhere
it’s the scam that suggests travellers, it’s one they have used for years in Ireland and last year in Australia
it is a scam normally associated with travellers though .lowest if the low to do that to anybody. especially the elderly .
They are filth, they deliberately do a bad job and screw the most out of the old and vulnerable. A decent days work is not in their genes. Same people do it all over Europe and the States and indeed at home. Pure vermin.
@The Todd… if you feel so strongly about backing travellers, just put up a few stories about all the good travellers have done recently to counter balance people’s comments…
Does it really matter, you can’t choose your biological parents, however nobody can condone what they did, preying on the elderly like that. Sorry boss if my comment offends anyone.
Yes that’s right they are an ethnic group so why are they calling them Irish
David, your surname is on the list above. Are you a traveller? Mark, unfortunately media don’t report any good done by travellers because good news doesn’t sell. There are a small cohort of travellers who give a lot of them a bad name and it’s always media porn. Same with youths, same with migrants, and the same with anyone viewed as “the other”.
@the Todd, what good have you witnessed from them so? or are you basing your defence of them on nothing
I think you got that the wrong way around , there are a small amount of travellers who are good people , but that’s it
@The Todd, small cohort my a**e, in this case alone 7 men and19 women and children were detained after a raid on their “camp”. No doubt, the ones that were deported and not imprisoned have learnt their lesson and wont be bad any more.
On another note, can you explain the wealth of ethnic minority.
I’ve witnessed plenty of good, I’ve very rarely had a bad experience with any travellers. Look at Galway and the work they are doing in reinsulating houses over that way. Plenty work in run of the mill jobs but don’t identify as travellers within organisations due to the discrimination that they face. I’m not denying that there are issues within their way of life, and things that must be addressed, but vilifying them consistently can only further isolate them from general civilisation. This us and them attitude does nothing for anyone and until this is addressed barriers will always remain. I knew I wasn’t gonna get much agreement here but I can only try to advocate for equality, it can only but have positive outcomes for all involved.
Todd.. The traveller culture surpresses women, the women are expected to marry young, often without finishing 2nd level schooling.. But of course their representatives blame the ‘settled’ community for not doing enough to keep them in school.. They are then expected to stay at home rearing families and cleaning. Traveller fathers would most definitely not allow their daughters to marry ‘settled’ people and no one would dare criticise that view…but if a ‘settled’ person said they would bar their children from marrying a traveller then they would be labelled racist.
Travellers bring a lot of problems onto themselves and their representatives do them no favours by failing to acknowledge that fact.
So you’re saying we should ignore facts just to be all pc to a group that has decided they want to treated equally but differently at the same time,while making treating them differently illegal and racist.
And your Surname could be there too Todd if you did not prefer the safe option of hiding behind a pseudonym . My Grandmothers name was Kiely so I am qualified to have an opinion on the subject Boss !
it is them who regularly put forward the US versus them, they say they are a different ethnic group constantly and should be treated differently. 85% of them don’t work (quote from Patrick Collins of pavee point on the journal ) yet they seem to have an abundance of money available..
I did just acknowledge that above. And as a settled person having had a girlfriend who was a traveller, I find your understanding to be ill informed. There are many problems that must be addressed but it’s hard to address them when the biggest issue is that they face discrimination from 99% of the country. Did you know that one in six males commit suicide within the traveller community, which is already disproportionately high to any other group. Their access to health care and non discriminatory education is also a massive issue. In my eye, education is integral to advancing any community but the 99% must also educate themselves on what it means to be a traveller and how much discrimination they face. Rather than rely on the vitriol spewed by media which in any other instance would be condemned
David my auld flower, my name is Stephen Todd, you’ll find me there on Facebook. Todd being my surname of course. I take it that you look like an egg is it? You’ll also find this directly links to my Twitter. Pseudohypocrite maybe
I rely on my own two eyes and my own two ears.
So even though I’ve come up with examples, I’m still undoubtably wrong? I’m away to watch the football
The Todd.. How, where and when are travellers denied access to health care? The schools are available to them but because their culture involves moving around a lot it sort of interferes with regular lessons.
To be sure !
Travellers maybe, Irish yes, so, Mary, your point is ?
You’re all missing the point, they maybe travellers but they are still Irish!
Mary, your list defines them as IRISH, you say they are not. Is your list, provided, incorrect ?
I dont think Tod could find any good in any thing the travelers have done recently or in the past! And…if he supports their behavior…culture etc try employing a few of them and i guarantee he’ll soon change his attitude towards them!
I’ve just outlined it in a post above, and have also worked with many travellers, none of whom I’ve found as much as difficult.
They got very light sentences, pity.
They are in Australia on Irish passports which means they are IRISH. It’s an idiotic argument that tries to say otherwise.
Love to see the right-wing crowd come out disavowing the traveller community as Irish. Sure on every article about the government’s continued refusal to grant them separate ethnic status, you all harp on and on and on about the fact they shouldn’t get it because they just want to use it to play the victim. As soon as it suits your agenda, you’re quick enough to claim them as a different ethnicity.
Todd, every Irish person looking for work in Australia is going to hear remarks about these criminals. Pretty sure they’ll work twice as hard to prove they’re not like that. Fair enough to blame the people who did the damage and cheated those people out of their hard-earned money. Are you saying that travellers are going to have a collection to pay those people back? Who wouldn’t respect that? A bit of positive community action would be great to see.
Fcukers! Got what they deserved.
They have the same modus operandi here but get away with it
“26 Irish people were deported from Perth at the time of the men’s initial arrest.”
No prizes for guessing to where they have been deported..
God help us, these travelling tricksters are probably back in Ireland,climbing on the roofs of Irish elderly citizens, as I write.
Could they not have been brought to the centre of the Island (Australia) and left there for the lizards to pick their bones.?
The Aussies will have to be a little more selective in issuing (presumably) holiday visas to the Irish.
@John Bennett,
Will they still have a clean Irish record now?
It seems rather odd that criminal convictions stop at the border and you have a clean slate then at the other side. Its also a problem we have within Europe of course.
@ john you dont need a clean criminal history to get an australian holiday visa or working holiday visa, the question is asked but no proof has to be provided. It is only when going for a permanent residency visa that you have to provide proof.
Well done Australia, in Ireland Pavee Point would have whined and whinged until the local authorities had yet again ignored their criminality and instead paid for this utter filth to get a new house, equestrian centre etc for them to pillage, ransack and burn – They are laughing at us…. Simple.
The cheek of them. Hope karma gets catches up with them good and proper…
Who is karma.?
If Karma was a brand of steel toe boots, then I would agree.
Cowards preying on the elderly. I hope their time in prison is hell on earth.
They are an embarrassment to the Irish community in Australia.
I hope the Australian media labels them as Travellers (if that is the case) as distinct from ‘Irish’.
They entered Australia on Irish passports so they are Irish and where correctly reported in the Australian media as being Irish.
You’ve purposely missed my point.
had to be creamers.give them 10 years hard labour
Jacobs I would say
Disgusting really. Picking easy targets. Some criminals they are
The Todd f it smells like a duck, waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, and it’s name is smith, it’s still a duck…….called smith!!!
S(umbags makes it hard of us irish trying to make a life for or selfs out here.
Hope they get the Boss!
You can’t put me in jail, – dat’s ‘scrimination boss.
Anyone who is convicted of abusing the elderly should get 10 years minimum.
I’d prefer stiffer penalties, like hanging.
I struggle to understand how a judge can describe this as ‘sophisticated’. It requires a level of shamelessness and intimidation certainly, but I don’t see the sophistication.
Unfortunately it is an age old scam that continues to happen in this country, we don’t seem to able to deal with it as efficiently. Sadly the perpetrators target the most vulnerable in society.
At least the Australian police catch them and prosecute. Here, they roam with impunity.
thank the courts for that!
Sadly the ones they deported will return to the luxury us suckers will provide for them for the rest of their lives.
Dirty rotten cream crackers at it again, and now we have their cousins the vermin roma at the same here
Jacobs are foul things aren’t they?
Will this mean that they will qualify for transportation to Ireland on the other side of the World?
Was in Perth for a few weeks, I think they’re getting the worst of the Irish. Possibly could be because its cheaper to get to Perth or maybe Western Oz is still desperate for more people.
That’s quiet a bold statement to make because you were in Perth for a few weeks you think you meet every Irish person. Perth is far from cheap, maybe a few hundred cheaper to fly to but certainly not cheap to live in.
Sucm.
Any scam against vulnerable people should be punished – not on the same scale but my parents were scammed by a telecoms company. the stress and anxiety it caused my father was sickening. I would love to see something similar happen here.
I like that the Oz police don’t take shi*t and just jail and deport – fk human rights .. I wish more countries would approach the Oz laws and processes !!
The police don’t jail anybody…the courts do.
Sure everybody loves the Irish, olé, olé, olé.
Nasty,crafty people.
Everyone deserves a second chance
disgraceful making a bad name for the irish lads and lassies workin hard over there
Lock them all up giving the young lads and ladies a bad that moved over there in bad times to try make a go of it
have your say