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LAST UPDATE | 24 Feb 2021
THE GOVERNMENT IS not going to extend the term of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes, despite mounting pressure from opposition TDs.
A Social Democrats’ motion to extend the commission’s term by one year had broad support but is non-binding and is not being acted on by government.
The government did not table a counter-motion as expected.
During the debate, Children’s Minister Roderic O’Gorman said an extension to the Commission would serve “no practical purpose” now that audio recordings of survivors’ testimony have been recovered.
The Dáil agreed unanimously at midday to the #SocDems motion to extend the #MotherandBabyHomes Commission. A little more than an hour later the government vote down providing time in the Dáil to give effect to this pic.twitter.com/Yo3V7EHvN8
— Cian O'Callaghan T.D. (@OCallaghanCian) February 24, 2021
Speaking after the debate, Holly Cairns, who co-sponsored the motion with Jennifer Whitmore, said: “Earlier today, the Government committed to not blocking the Social Democrats’ motion to extend the Commission of Investigation.
“However, when challenged by my colleague Gary Gannon to give effect to this by allocating time in the Dáil, they voted that proposal down. This shows that the Government is attempting to look both ways on the issue.”
Cairns said the government did not submit a counter-motion “to avert a rebellion of Government TDs and to give the appearance of wanting to do the right thing”.
“It is a disgraceful attempt to effectively hoodwink the Dáil,” Cairns added.
Speaking in the Dáil today, Whitmore, the SocDem’s children’s spokesperson, said the confirmation “late last night, at the 11th hour” that the audio testimony of witnesses could be recovered presents more questions than it answers.
Whitmore said the Commission’s term has been extended a number of times “for the benefit of the Commission, and for the benefit of the government, and this time we’re asking for it to be done for the benefit of the survivors”.
She said the backup tapes “miraculously appeared at the back of the sofa” after pressure was put on the government and Commission by survivors and the public.
Whitmore accused the government of “playing political games” and called on it to extend the Commission’s term so questions can be answered.
During the debate Cairns said that in recent days O’Gorman “went from saying, ‘I won’t extend the Commission because I don’t think it’s legally possible’ … to change tack and say ‘I don’t want to extend the commission because that was scupper subject data access requests’ – that was also debunked. Then when you were backed into a corner, miraculously, the tapes were discovered”.
Cairns: "In recent weeks the Commission said they had destroyed 549 survivor testimonies. When, almost immediately, people questioned how digital files could be truly deleted in this day and age, the Commission said ... they could confirm that the testimonies were unrecoverable."
— Órla Ryan (@orlaryan) February 24, 2021
In response, Minister O’Gorman said he welcomed the opportunity to address the Dáil on the latest developments. He said the government would not be tabling a counter-motion, as was expected.
“I strongly believe that we must focus on real solutions and move quickly to resolve difficulties in a way that best serves survivors…
“The government has not tabled a counter-motion today in the spirit of working together to provide solutions for survivors.
“We are focusing our energies on practical actions, which can assist those who are distressed by the deletion of the audio recordings.”
O’Gorman told the Dáil the Commission has said that each witness at the confidential committee was given a guarantee of complete anonymity, and it was for this reason that tapes were deleted, adding: “I recognise some survivors dispute this point.”
He noted that the Commission has said consent was given by 549 of the 550 witnesses to the use of an audio device and “approximately 80 people who attended the confidential committee sought for their personal information to be redacted”.
O’Gorman said if witnesses “consider that their record is inaccurate or incomplete, they will be able to exercise their rights” and can contact his dept, once it becomes a data controller after 28 February, to “exercise their right to rectification”.
. @seansherlocktd says: "This issue wouldn't have arisen if people felt that their narratives or stories or history was adequately properly reflected in the report.
— Órla Ryan (@orlaryan) February 24, 2021
"So much damage was done by inaccurately reflecting the trauma of people." pic.twitter.com/wMEtXmlVsX
Survivor reaction
Síobhan, a survivor who gave birth to a son in Denny House in Dublin in the 1980s, gave testimony to the Commission in 2017.
Speaking to TheJournal.ie today, she said she was frustrated after watching the Dáil debate.
Síobhan is among the survivors who have contacted gardaí and the Data Protection Commissioner about their testimony being deleted.
“All of the speakers (in the Dáil) brought up very, very good examples of why this Commission has to be extended. Because a number of us, including me, have given evidence to gardaí about our about the tapes been deleted without our consent. And I’ve also got an ongoing case with the Data Protection Commissioner.”
She said that during her interview with the Commission she requested a copy of the recording of her testimony but was told this was not possible.
“They never told me then about the tapes being destroyed. So when I read in the news about the tapes being destroyed, I was shocked, absolutely shocked,” she said.
“The Commission said they destroyed because they were only an aide memoire for the transcriber, but now they’re coming out saying, ‘Oh, we did is to make you all anonymous.’”
Síobhan said that while the wishes of the 80 witnesses who wish to remain anonymous should be respected, they should not usurp the wishes of the wishes of the 470 witnesses who did not request anonymity.
Síobhan said her evidence was “misrepresented in the report”, and that important elements of her experience were not included.
Síobhan noted that many survivors have spoken about forced detention and abuse in the institutions, and forced adoption, but the Commission found a “lack of evidence” to back this up.
She said hearing the original recordings of the testimony is vital so errors in the written accounts of people’s experiences can be corrected.
‘Weasel words’
A number of TDs criticised the government’s approach to the situation, as well as the Commission’s final report and deletion of the audio recordings, during the debate today.
Independent Catherine Connolly said “weasel words” came to mind when she listened to O’Gorman’s speech.
She said the majority of witnesses want their testimony to be heard, noting that people have “come forward to say ‘please publish our stories, please listen to us now’.”
Connolly asked, now the backup tapes have been found, who will listen to them, who will make notes and check against the testimony in the report.
Connolly hit out at the “boys’ club” that has defended the Commission in the media in recent days – saying a few women are now unfortunately part of that club too.
She said O’Gorman will have her full support if he seeks to deal with the issues raised by survivors.
RISE TD Paul Murphy said “survivors deserve the truth – but what’s more, they deserve justice and redress”.
“Those who bear particular responsibility, the religious orders who ran (the institutions), should be made to pay for what they did.”
Murphy said religious orders shouldn’t receive “a slap on the wrist and a pocket of public money”, rather their assets should be seized “to fund proper redress for their victims”.
. @catherinegalway says "weasel words come to mind" when she hears Roderic O'Gorman's speech.
— Órla Ryan (@orlaryan) February 24, 2021
She says the majority of witnesses want their testimony to be heard.
People have come forward to say 'please publish our stories, please listen to us now'. pic.twitter.com/V6Ri1azBZb
Solidarity–People Before Profit TD Bríd Smith said the Commission left “many stones left unturned”, adding: “As well as that, there’s been a tonne of cement poured on top of the truth.”
Smith said the unmarked graves of children “littered around the country” are crime scenes and must be treated as such. She added that there are “unknown amounts of dead babies buried” at Sean Ross Abbey and other locations.
TDs from Sinn Féin, Labour and a number of independents also spoke in favour of the motion.
Anne Rabbitte, Minister of State at the Department of Children, noted that some survivors want their testimony to be kept private.
The Fianna Fáil TD also said that some survivors do not support extending the Commission’s term. She said she was not trying to pit survivors against each other, but all voices must be listened to.
Rabbitte says the government is committed to a "survivor-centered" approach and implementing the 22 action points announced in January - redress, counselling, medical support, memorialisation, information and tracing legisaltion, etc.
— Órla Ryan (@orlaryan) February 24, 2021
Rabbitte said the government is committed to a “survivor-centered” approach and implementing the 22 action points announced in January – such as redress, counselling, medical support, memorialisation, and information and tracing legislation.
Deleted audio
Last night it emerged that the recordings could in fact be retrieved.
In a statement, the Department of Children confirmed an IT expert had checked if the audio recordings are retrievable by testing a random sample, and verified that they are “accessible and audible”.
The commission has agreed to deposit the audio recordings with the department.
The department said it is continuing its preparations to become data controller of the Mother and Baby Homes archive from 28 February and is liaising with the Data Protection Commission in their regard.
“The retrieval of audio recordings from the backup tapes and their imminent transfer to my Department now provides another avenue for the people who appeared before the Committee to access their personal data,” O’Gorman said in a statement last night.
“The request of the approximately 80 people to have their identities redacted will be respected and my Department will liaise with the Commission as current data controller in this regard.
“If any of the people who appeared before the Committee consider that their record is inaccurate or incomplete, they will be able to exercise their GDPR rights with the Department once it becomes data controller. This will involve making a request to exercise their right to rectification after the archive transfers to my Department.”
. @MHealyRae calls on Minister O'Gorman to act and "stop going out on the radio and saying one thing, then coming in here and saying another".
— Órla Ryan (@orlaryan) February 24, 2021
He says survivors "deserve the truth" and the Commission's term should be extended. pic.twitter.com/Ev2TBnUGXO
Speaking to TheJournal.ie ahead of today’s debate, Whitmore said survivors still want to ask questions about why the audio recordings were deleted without their consent, among other issues.
“Survivors also have raised concerns about how the final report did not accurately reflect their testimony. The Commission will need to be in existence to provide survivors an opportunity to address these discrepancies and offer them a right to rectification of the information.
“It is welcome that they did not, in fact, delete these testimonies as they had previously stated they had, but it is really only one element of the justice that survivors need.”
Whitmore said the deletion of the audio is at odds with GDPR legislation, which states that the processing of a person’s data cannot happen without their consent, and Section 43 of the 2004 Commissions of Investigation Act.
The latter states that, before the dissolution of a commission, “all evidence received by and all documents created by or for the commission” must be given to the relevant minister. This includes “records of interviews conducted” by a commission.
“These are legal questions that people are asking. It’s not necessarily a criticism of the commission, but people want to know what happened there. And they’ve gone to the Data Protection Commissioner (DPC) to ask about that, and the DPC will need time to investigate that,” Whitmore said.
“I think we need to try to move away from the narrative of saying this is an anti-commission thing, it’s not. This is survivors seeking information about their own information, wanting to exert their legal rights, and also seek justice.
“That’s what we need to keep front and centre – this isn’t about upsetting the commissioner, this needs to be about survivors and them not being forgotten,” Whitmore said.
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I’d be interested in the number of cars being brought in from outside the State. With the current level of Sterling and the cost of cars here I would suspect many people are importing their cars. Even with the VRT a significant saving can be made.
VRT is a disgrace
Aren’t all cars brought in from outside the State? Of course the SIMI would have you think they are inferior making import a dirty word for cars.
I did. Bought a 2013 Mazda from U.K. For a lot less than one here. Bought an SEL NAV with 50,000 for £9600 (13500) at the time, 18 – €19,000 here. Complete inflated. Goes with our insurance and car tax I suppose.
Motor industry lobby the government over reg plates. They forced the government to bring in the reg plates we have now. The year forces people to have the latest car. Your registration should be given with your licence and should be for life no matter what the car. If two people drive the same car or each others car than you can share a regular number. Also government should get rid of illegal VRT tax as per EU law.
@lez ferguson: VRT is not illegal – http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/faqs-vrt.html#question2
To be honest I think a practical solution to the problem of uninsured drivers would be to link car tax and insurance to the number plate. No insurance, no number plate, no tax paid, no number plate. In Denmark where I live they use this system and if you dont pay your car tax or insurance the police take your number plate. As its also illegal to have an unregistered vehicle if you’re not a car dealer you have to get rid of the car or pay up or they seize the car as well. Insurance for first time drivers here is about €1000 highest for comprehensive falling to €300 after 5 years.
@lez ferguson:
Please explain how the number on the plate “forces” people to buy a new car?
I have a sore tooth, can I blame the government for that as well?
No one is holding a gun to peoples heads when they are singing purchase agreements.
Regarding. Your link says the oppsite
@Mick Jordan: Is English your first language?
@P.J. Nolan:
“singing purchase agreements”??
I’m a mean barotone myself
Enjoyed reading the convoluted alternative plate systems. But I can’t think of a dafter reason to choose a car. Unless by horoscope ;-)
If at all possible walk cycle or use public transport. Get rid of the car and get rid of insurance, motor tax and maintenance.
And fuel costs.
How would the Government be able to raise revenue then? If the takings from tax on Fuel, insurance, car purchases etc were abolished.
The air we breathe…
@Niallers: That’s fine for single people, not a hope for most others though. Only city dwellers can get away with that.
@Mr Snuffleupagus: Era the dutch manage it, I’ve seen them fit 5 people on a bike!
There’s the electric cars for those of us with families too… Check on the low tax, no fuel, still stuck with the pesky insurance mind. 2 outta 3 is still better though! :)
@Jane Bresnan: The Dutch have a very good existing transport system, and very few hills! When you have t0 cycle up Patrick’s Hill in Cork (almost vertical), or have to cycle a 10 mile round trip to travel no more than 2 miles as the RSA don;t allow cyclists on dual carriageways or through the Jack Lynch tunnel connecting the northside and southside, you begin to realise cycling in Cork is for students.
I’ve saved about 1,500 cycling to and from work every day. It’s about 8k each way, not ideal at the start or when it’s raining but invest in a decent rain jacket, bike and headphones and you’ll never look back. If I leave during rush hour it’s often quicker to get in and home, plus the government aren’t taxing the hole off you.
Headphones, why would you cycle with one of your key senses impaired. Enrages me when i see senseless cyclists do that. Idiot
Try living outside a city where the closest bus service is over 25km away…
@Mr Snuffleupagus: We manage with one car between the two of us. I get the bus to work. We have a car available for when one is needed. I would imagine it is actually harder for a single person because there are some things you can’t do in this country without a car (especially if you live outside Dublin), so you almost always need access to one at least.
@Fargo Boyle: When cycling there’s nothing to Hear! In urban areas all you can hear is traffic. if its raining all you can hear is traffic, tyre roar, air brakes etc. In rural areas all you can here is the wind, cars approaching etc. (yes you can still hear ambient noise while wearing earbuds)
Listening to music while cycling is no different to watching a movie with a musical soundtrack..it adds to the enjoyment.
“When cycling in Ireland and it’s raining, invest in good head phones…” – brought to you by the Road Safety Authority
Fargo. An enraged individual is more dangerous than a cyclist wearing headphones. Beware of enraged individuals.
Try walking with headphones – the mic often picks up and amplifies sounds. It’s a careless bias. Sirens can be more piercing even with earbuds in. Maybe don’t go by what you see.
Lmao
Alan Kelly,exactly, you need to hear the traffic.
@Paul Whelan very funny lol!!! said nobody…..
@Fargo Boyle: Hear traffic? Why? why do you have to hear traffic?
So you’re aware what’s coming behind you and
From blind spots. Obviously eyes are more critical but countless times some idiot on a bike wearing headphones has swerved out in front of me. Had they had their sense of hearing,I doubt it would of happened. Listening to music in a very personal way i.e headphones is distracting. Your senses can you help you and keep you safe, cycling on a public road with traffic with one critical sense less is foolish and dangerous. I’m not entirely sure but,is it illegal now?
i hate the year on the number plate
makes people think they need a new car which is probably why we have it , does any other EU country do this
@David Cullen: Agreed. Why cant they have month and year , location as the number plate. eg 17 01 D 1234 would tell you, the car is (17) is 2017, month (01) is January, (D) is Dublin and 1234 is the 1234th car registered in that period. Looking at the present system more then 27% of cars are bought in January. This would enhance the second hand value of say November and December cars. (eg 16 12 D 213). They use that system in Portugal. At least it will space out more even cars sales throughout the year. Also help NCT and Motor Taxation queues.
I have an 09 Opel (well Vauxhall its a UK import) its running well and is in good condition. It has over 200k miles on it, mostly put on it by me, but why would I change for a 171 reg when the only real difference between them would be the numbers on the clock, straddle myself with circa €400 a month of a repayment bill to drive basically the same car as I have now, as cars haven’t really changed in the last ten years. Plus a second hand basic spec from the UK has the equivalent spec as the mid to top range spec in Rep of Ireland. The NCT (which is a massive scam) now means that cars are effectively worth nothing after ten years no matter how good of condition they are in. There should be some system where by if a car receives a certain “score” in the NCT test then the cert will last 2 years, between score A & B then the cert lasts a year, between score B & C then the cert lasts 6 months and below score C then it fails. This would actually encourage people to take better care of their older cars.
@Anthony O Reilly: Nct is a scam promoted by the simi and helped by the AA, Working in the trade for over twenty years Ive see stupid fails and some unbelievable passes,
We obviously need to break the registrations down to quarterly or even monthly now to keep the registrations active !
Have to admit that I really taken with the idea of an electric car. I have always been a true petrol head from my first mk1 savage cortina , capri’s , Granada’s and even a Manta 400 right up to our RX7 but I was greatly impressed with a friends Nissan leaf. I think it might very well be my first new car.
@Michael Clinton: but they’re so ugly… can’t wait to see how much Tesla Model III will cost here…
I know Daniel but I never said I would get rid of the RX7 , The “leccy” car would be the daily and the RX7 would be the weekend special. Mind you Completecar.ie have done some super reports on Hybred/electric cars.
@Daniel Dudek Corrigan: You better have a look at the new Hyundai Ioniq, it is certainly not what you call so ugly. No VRT either.
@Dave Green:
Do Hyundai pay their staff well Dave?
@P.J. Nolan Do any car manufactures pay their staff well.
@Dave Green: What about Renault Zoe? How does it compare performance wise? I’m thinking of getting electric car too?
I wonder what the increase in NOx emissions has been since the introduction of the new motor tax system.
Exactly. People got too hung up on the CO2 emissions when the NOX are far more harmful to humans (and far higher in diesel cars)
Yep. There are rumours that Honda plan to ditch diesel engines in the near future.
People were pushed into Diesel cars by the Greens. If you can afford a large BMW saloon car with €190 tax why wouldn’t you buy it.
As for Electric cars – we need to look at the end to end life cycle from production through use to disposal. They might not have as good green credentials as people think.
@Ted Logan: I drive a 2002 Mercedes. I could go out and buy a new one tomorrow, and I wouldn’t need a bank loan for it either. Personally. I think new cars are a phenomenal waste of money. I’ll let others worry about depreciation, and pick them up years later with low mileage and a good service history.
I paid 1500 for my current car 3 years ago and it has cost me nothing to run it beyond petrol, insurance, car tax, tyres, and a few bulbs and the annual service. . That’s 3 year of ‘cheap’ driving to date. In that time my insurance has rocketed to 1k, my car tax is close to 700 and my petrol consumption about 40 a week. So. I’m getting away lightly. I won;t change it until it costs too much to fix. If it lasts another 10 years, I’ll still be driving it.
Good point. Still, fewer components, so I guess the first wave might trade in all right if upgrading to a more streamlined one. Be good to see how they hold up. If they came down in price secondhand, more first-time drivers would try one.
What defines a new car being ‘sold’…On PCP finance?
PCP is the work of the devil.
As a a self employed person If I bought new van now in 12mths it would need a doe even if it has only 10km up on it.
Now why would i ever bother buying a new van/car van etc. For me personally if the doe was 100k or after 3 years then I’d be tempted to buy new more often but as it stands unless I win the lotto or I get a great trade in offer , I wont ever be buying anything new.
@Angry Gaming: DOe is way less stringent than the NCT though. Much easier to pass and there are also way more test centres as lots of local garages have the ability to test the DOE. I’d prefer the DOE to the NCT anyday. My van used to pass it no problem, when I’d be going back for a retest with the car.
@Mr Snuffleupagus:
While you may well be right regards the DOE been easier than the NCT, my own experience of having both a van and a car would back you up on that, the cost of the DOE is considerably higher (€95 compared to €55 for NCT) and you have to do it every year from year 1
I wonder what is the ‘right’ number of new cars per year. In that a number that ensures a good stock of quality, safe cars, but not at the expense of people buying new cars that they really cannot afford.
have your say