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THE GOVERNMENT’S PLAN to provide 400 multi-denominational primary schools by 2030 has no roadmap or interim targets, while representatives and parents from both Catholic and secular groups believe change in the sector is not happening quickly enough.
Despite over a decade of commitments from successive Governments to diversify the choice of primary school patronage, the percentage of Catholic schools has fallen by just 2% in eight years.
In 2012, when the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in the Primary Sector reported, 90.6% of schools had a Catholic ethos; in September 2020, with 45 schools having closed (just over 1%), that figure had dropped only marginally to 88.7%.
In July 2020, the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (IHREC) told the UN Expert Committee on the Rights of the Child that “while the Commission has welcomed commitments by the State to establish more multi-denominational schools, it shares the [UN] Committee’s concerns about the slow progress to date”.
The IHREC recommended “that the Committee asks the State why it has not met its targets on the divestment of patronage from Catholic schools”.
https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/6272381/
For an interactive table of all primary schools and their patrons, click here.
The issue has risen back into public consciousness in recent months, following public and political controversy over Flourish, a new programme for relationships and sexuality education in primary schools, developed by the Irish Bishops Conference.
Just this weekend, a Catholic primary school in Lacken, Co Wicklow, said it would not be using the Flourish programme, following protests by some parents at the school over its content.
Today, Noteworthy can report that:
“I had no choice in the matter”
As well as extensive Freedom of Information (FOI) requests to the DES, we received feedback from just over 1,000 parents, teachers and stakeholders including Catholic representatives, campaigners, academics and multidenomintional patrons for this series, using a combination of survey tools and on- and off-the-record interviews.
As part of our outreach to parents impacted by the current make-up of the Irish primary school landscape, we gathered experiences via a survey form over a number of weeks.
In the 2016 census, 78% of the Irish population identified themselves and/or their children as Catholic, a fall from 84% in 2011. Before Covid-19 closed churches, a survey by Amárach Research showed that Mass attendance was down as low as 27% among Catholics, down from nearly 90% in 1979. And, in 2020, more people chose civil ceremonies over Catholic ceremonies for the first time, according to the CSO.
One parent in Munster, writing to Noteworthy, explained that educational choice is not reflective of the changing faith landscape:
“There is no Educate Together or non-denominational school in our town. The nearest ET school is oversubscribed and although we applied and were willing to commit to the drive, it was filled locally.”
Another parent, also based in Munster, said that she had been unable to secure a place for her child in a non-Catholic school.
“I had no choice in the matter. My child was on the waiting list for Educate Together from the age of one, but did not get a place. We live in a city where we have over 10 Catholic schools and a Protestant school nearby, but there was no option of a non-religious education for my child.”
Children are constitutionally entitled to opt out of religious instruction, and schools are required under the Education (Admissions to Schools) Act 2018 to facilitate this. Some parents say that they have been either unable to opt their child out of religious instruction and education or felt pressure to let them participate.
Sinéad Gibney, Chief Commissioner of the IHREC says that “while progress has been made, much of what was set out has not yet been fully implemented”.
In 2020, a survey of 40 Catholic schools, carried out by the campaign group Atheist Ireland, found that 30 of these schools required parents to seek a meeting with the school principal if they wished to opt their child out of religious instruction.
A respondent to our callout for parental experiences in this area said:
“I discovered my second child had been made to do RE for his entire senior infant year even though we had opted out. I had a meeting with the principal who laughed it off as a mistake and didn’t see it as a problem. Another meeting was had when my daughter came home with the ashes after having been opted out for three years. I was told, ‘She got in line with the rest of the class and we didn’t want to tell her no.’ She was only seven at the time.”
In part two of this investigation – which will be published on The Journal and Noteworthy this evening - we look more extensively at the experiences and problems of parents and teachers on the ground, and ask experts for their solutions to these key challenges.
Not there yet – but are we getting there?
On 10 April 2012, the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in the Primary, chaired by the late Professor John Coolahan, published its report. It called for sweeping changes in the patronage of schools. Successive governments promised action.
While the Department of Education and Skills (DES) has set a target of 400 multi-denominational schools by 2030, this is not underpinned by any law and the DES has not set any annual targets.
In their recent statement of strategy, the DES set the goal of ensuring “equity of opportunity in education and that all students are supported to fulfil their potential”. This, they said, was to include the strategic action of increasing “the diversity of school type in order to offer parents and students more choice through the process to reconfigure schools to increase diversity and strengthen the relationship between schools and their local communities”. It did not, however, outline how this could be done.
“The focus of the department is on the overall target of having 400 multi-denominational schools by 2030 rather than having separate annual targets,” the DES said in response to queries from Noteworthy.
The DES said the target of 400 multi-denominational schools by 2030 would be achieved in two ways. Firstly, transferring patronage from existing Catholic schools, “including ‘early movers’, new schools in the remaining patronage divesting areas where a school has yet to be established”. And, secondly, building new schools in “areas of demographic growth” with patronage decided by parental preference and existing provision in the area. These, it is believed, are likely “to have a multi-denominational ethos”.
All completely new primary schools that have opened since 2011 – bar one, which is inter-denominational – have multi-denominational patrons, which mean that children of different faiths and none are educated together with a broad ethical framework that respects all beliefs. All but two of these patrons were chosen after surveys of local parents.
https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/6270369/
For an interactive table of the patronage of all new schools, click here.
While the DES says that the primary “patronage process is open to all patrons/prospective patrons bodies, including those offering denominational/religious options”, no Catholic patron has asked to be the patron of a new school since 2015, when the Bishop of Cloyne’s application was rejected by the DES.
The DES says that changing patrons, which it refers to as the “reconfiguration” process, “involves the transfer of existing live schools as opposed to the amalgamation and/or closure model of the patronage divesting process”.
Since 2011, however, just 13 schools have transferred from a Christian to a multi-denominational patron including one in 2013, four in 2014, two in 2015, two in 2016, and one in each of 2018 and 2019 while, more recently, a gaelscoil transferred from the Catholic archbishop of Dublin to An Foras Pátrúnachta.
In addition, in 2015, one school in Galway changed from a Steiner school under the patronage of Lifeways Ireland to a community national school under the patronage of Galway Education and Training Board.
These schools represent just 2.5% of Ireland’s 3,106 primary schools. Almost 90% of primary schools remain under Catholic patronage. Surveys on parental preference, carried out on foot of the Forum report, have not always led to change, with 12 of the 50 areas where parents wanted change still without choice.
Three years after surveys of parents in selected areas were due to be completed, and almost two years after they were due to be released by the country’s 16 education and training boards, the DES is still blocking their publication because, it says, it is engaged in a “deliberative process” with the Irish Episcopal Conference, which represents the Catholic bishops that act as patrons of the majority of primary schools.
These meetings, which the DES says have happened every month in 2021, take place behind closed doors and the DES has refused Freedom of Information requests from Noteworthy to disclose what was discussed, or to provide any timeline as to when these negotiations might conclude.
The IHREC made recommendations on divestment to the Oireachtas in 2015 and 2016, and has also made a number of written submissions and recommendations to the United Nations and the Council of Europe on issues of education and religion.
In July of last year, the Commission made a submission to the UN Expert Committee focused on children’s rights. “We set out that while we welcome the commitments by the State to establish more multi-denominational schools, the Commission does hold concerns about the slow progress to date,” said the IHREC’s Sineád Gibney.
“[We] acknowledge that this is a complex process with multiple stakeholders, [but] the Programme for Government commits to achieving a target of at least 400 multi-denominational primary schools by 2030 to improve parental choice.
Gibney said their recommendation to the UN ahead of its review of Ireland’s obligations on Children’s Rights is that it “directly ask the State to account for slow progress on the divestment of patronage from Catholic schools”.
The IHREC says it’s now awaiting the State’s report to the UN’s Children’s Rights Committee.
Today, there is a perception that the process is not working, says Emer Nowlan, CEO of Educate Together which, in the late 1970s, became the first multi-denominational patron in the State to offer a non-Catholic or non-Protestant alternative.
“There has never been a strategy or funding, and it’s supposed to be cost-neutral, but you can’t achieve this type of change without money,” she told Noteworthy.
“In Northern Ireland, Ulster University’s Community Conversations programme is a model for engaging communities around educational change – and ensuring that the quieter voices are heard – but we have nothing similar here. While the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism made recommendations, there’s never been a process. Even bishops find it difficult to divest.”
Jane Donnelly, education officer with Atheist Ireland, is a long-time campaigner on this issue. “The State is constitutionally responsible for the right of children not to attend religious instruction and to respect the rights of non-religious parents in Catholic schools,” she says. “That has broken down.”
The real cost of a ‘cost-neutral’ approach
In 2021, whether multi-denominational or religious, patrons and principals say that there is scant practical or financial support from the DES for schools who decide to change patronage.
In 2012, the country was in the grip of austerity and Ruairi Quinn, the Minister for Education who initiated the changes, said that the changeover, wherever possible, should be cost-neutral.
This, said Paul Rowe, former CEO of Educate Together, ultimately doomed the process to failure.
“How can you transfer 10% of the primary school system without investing in it? They never provided resources, development offices or financial support for the change process,” he says.
“Critically, they refused to allow a school to open in temporary accommodation in an area that had indicated change, whereas our argument was that the best way to induce change was to allow temporary accommodation – and then, the opening and growth of the Educate Together would induce changes in enrolment in other schools, bring about rationalisation and release buildings.”
On November 26, 2020, Educate Together officials Emer Nowlan (CEO) and Sandra Irwin-Gowran (head of education and development) met with Minister for Education Norma Foley and three department officials.
In advance, Educate Together submitted a substantial briefing document. According to DES’s own notes, Educate Together told DES officials that:
In their briefing document, Educate Together wrote that “a lack of resources for change is a key reason for lack of progress. It is clear now that reforms will not happen without strategic investment to incentivise change. In addition, greater openness and transparency are required if progress is to be achieved.”
Setting up new schools as ‘short-term solution’
Aodhán Ó Riordáin TD, Labour spokesperson on education, is a former Minister of State for equality and a former principal in a Catholic primary school.
“This is a volunteer model, so why would the church want to give up their control of schools and the land? As a short-term solution, the DES – rather than go through a long protracted discussion – are setting up more schools.”
Ó Riordáin is one of many voices in education who say it is a major hassle for principals to start a divestment process.
“When you’re a principal, you have so much on your plate: you are constantly trying to serve the needs of the children, and the challenges constantly change. You don’t have the time, space or inclination to think of 5, 10, 15 years’ time, and the long process of changing ethos or patronage. There is no administrative support [for this process].”
Kevin Doran, bishop of Elphin, agrees that there is a lack of clear guidance for a school that would like to transfer out of Catholic patronage.
He told Noteworthy: “What is required for any coherent progress to be made is a template, agreed between Government and the patrons – not just Catholic bishops – on the basis of which consultations with parents can be carried out, and provision can be made for the actual needs of diverse groups, including parents who want a Catholic education for their children.”
Nowlan said that there is political stasis on this. “There’s a lack of political will,” said the Educate Together CEO. “It’s remarkable that Quinn got as far as he did but it helped that he was education spokesperson before becoming minister. Bruton considered himself as a reformist but ministers land in the DES and it takes them the first year and a half to see why [divestment] doesn’t happen.”
Noteworthy requested an interview with the Minister for Education Norma Foley to discuss the reconfiguration process, but were told she was unavailable. However, she did reply to two questions sent by email.
We asked her if she was “personally satisfied with the progress made” and if she could “provide parents with any sort of timeline as to when she expects conversations with the Irish Episcopal Conference would lead to an outcome that increases choice for parents”.
The Minister replied: “The Department and I are fully committed to achieving the targets set out in the Programme for Government. In the past year, the challenges presented by Covid-19 to schools, patron bodies, and the Department have impacted on the pace of reconfiguration, but engagement has remained ongoing at all times.
“As Minister I will meet with patron bodies shortly to discuss reconfiguration, and I look forward to working together to further this in the months ahead.
“It is important to note that notwithstanding the Covid-19 pandemic, progress has been made in reconfiguration. For example, a new model for reconfiguration has been used in Scoil Caitlin Maude in Tallaght, an Irish-medium school which has transitioned from the patronage of the Archdiocese of Dublin to that of An Foras Pátrúnachta. Future students will be offered the choice between an Ethics and Morality programme and Catholic instruction.”
When school doesn’t come with a schoolhouse
One of several areas where parental surveys showed a strong demand for an alternative to a Catholic school, but where parents remain with no choice, is Arklow, Co Wicklow, close to the border with Co Wexford. Gorey, a 15-minute drive away in north Wexford, has one of the most oversubscribed Educate Together schools in the country.
Early on in Ruairi Quinn’s tenure, his advisor contacted Educate Together and asked them to submit a list of areas where they believed a survey would show significant numbers of families seeking a non-Catholic alternative.
“Arklow was top of the list, and the first area to be surveyed,” said Paul Rowe, former Educate Together CEO. “Educate Together had very successful schools down the east coast, from Glenageary – which was our founding school, the Dalkey School Project – to Bray, Wicklow and Gorey.
“Over the years, Educate Together had significant interest from families in Arklow. It seemed inevitable that there would be a successful Educate Together school in Arklow.”
A total of 28 areas were surveyed, with one vote in Birr, Co Offaly leading to the establishment of a Gaelscoil, and 25 out of the other 27 resulting in a vote for an Educate Together school. Where Educate Together seeks patronage, it wins almost every time.
https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/6271925/
For an interactive version of this map, click here.
An analysis by the DES of five surveys said that Educate Together “is the multi-denominational patron that achieved both the greatest level of 1st preferences and also the highest level of combined parental preferences overall among parents who expressed a preference for change in patronage in each of the five areas surveyed.”
“Ultimately it hasn’t happened in Arklow, despite the clear demand, because of property issues,” said Rowe.
In Arklow, as in many areas where the reconfiguration process has hit a wall, the opposition wasn’t necessarily from senior clerics but instead from within the local parish.
There was local opposition to amalgamating a local boys school with a local girls school – which would have freed up a building – despite an effort by the archdiocese to engage with the local community in order to provide parents with a choice.
“Educate Together’s intent was always to establish schools to provide choice, so that Catholic families who want a specific Catholic education could have it, and those who didn’t would have a freely available option rather than be forced to reluctantly send their children to a Catholic school,” said Rowe.
“It is the responsibility of the State and the DES, not the Catholic church, to provide buildings. The DES could have allowed Educate Together to open in temporary accommodation in Arklow, which would have grown and proven its viability. We could have found temporary accommodation, perhaps from a local scout or GAA club who could have used the rent to upgrade their facilities.”
The other option – a new schools process – did not happen, because the DES’s demographic projections didn’t indicate sufficient numbers for an additional school in the Arklow area.
Gerry McKevitt, Educate Together’s new schools officer, explains some of the issues: “If a school amalgamates, the DES does not own the vacant building, although they often have a lean on a building if they have invested in it. It can be difficult for the church to sell an old school building – but they might be able to find another use for it.”
The DES began to build their own schools around 2004 or 2005, but the church and religious orders have significant – and potentially financially lucrative – buildings and lands. In 2018, for instance, the Christian Brothers, who own Clonkeen College in south county Dublin, were sued by the board of management after attempting to sell the school’s playing pitches.
“The State has learned from its mistake,” said Áine Hyland, one of the founders of the first multi-denominational schools in the State. “Irrespective of who the patron is, it puts up the capital outlay for all new school buildings, and it owns them.”
McKevitt said that this ownership will allow the DES to change the patron in those schools. “In fairness to the DES, I think that if they’d had a building, we would have been given it. But to replace 3,500 primary school buildings will take time and money, so it may not be possible in our lifetime.”
The Flourish row and the ‘integrated’ curriculum
The Arklow example is perhaps a key indication of why the modest target of 400 multi-denominational schools by 2030 appears to be the only one to which the DES aspires and why even those long advocating for change feel it will be a long time coming.
Áine Hyland, professor emeritus of education at University College Cork, is – as mentioned – a pioneering figure in Irish education. In the face of significant Catholic and State opposition, she was one of a group of parents who founded the Dalkey School Project, which was the founding Educate Together school and the first multi-denominational school in the State.
In her recent book, A Brave New Vision for Education in Ireland: The Dalkey School Project 1974-84, Hyland builds the case that Irish education became more – not less – conservative from the 1960s. This suggests that the current status of religion in primary schools is not some dilemma the State stumbled into; it is a choice formed by several generations of civil servants and ministers in the department of education.
“Surprisingly, in 1965, at a time when Irish society was beginning to become more liberal, the rules of the Department of Education in relation to primary schools were changed,” Hyland told Noteworthy. “New rules published in 1965 gave explicit recognition to the denominational character of primary schools and many of the safeguards relating to children of minority religions or no religion were removed.
“In 1968, the DES created Rule 68. [It stated that] of all parts of the school curriculum, Religious instruction is by far the most important, as its subject matter, God’s honour and service, includes the proper use of all man’s faculties… A religious spirit should vivify the whole work of the school.”
In 2016, Labour Minister for Education Jan O’Sullivan abolished Rule 68. In Catholic primary schools, however, an “integrated curriculum” means that aspects of religion still permeate the entire school day.
Integrated curriculums are widely seen as best educational practice. An integrated curriculum, where children are encouraged to see the links between different subjects, might, for instance, see a teacher do a project on the countries of the world with the children which involves the location and landscape of countries, the history of the countries, how many countries are on a continent, drawing the countries and more.
For those who don’t want their children participating in faith formation, however, the inclusion of religion across the curriculum causes tension.
“The ethos will be protected”
Debate this year over Flourish, a new relationships and sexuality education programme in Catholic primary schools, illustrates the point. In 2019, the Department of Education, under then-Minister for Education Joe McHugh, made a decision that may have paved the way for Flourish, which was developed by the Irish Bishops Conference.
While he introduced new guidelines for schools to deal with issues around consent and pornography, McHugh added that his department was “very anxious to ensure that the ethos of the school is central to any curriculum… The ethos will be protected.”
Released in April, Flourish states that love is at the heart of all families but that the church’s view that marriage is between a man and a woman “cannot be omitted”. It also states that “puberty and sex” are a “gift from God” and that “we are perfectly designed by God to procreate with him” and that “sexual love belongs in a committed relationship” with “marriage as a sacrament of commitment.”
One of the sixth-class resources advises: “Babies are precious gifts from God. From the time they are tiny cells in their mother’s womb they need to be minded and they are born completely helpless. They need trusted adults to make sure they grow into strong, healthy children and, eventually, strong adults. We ask God to help us to appreciate how wonderful new life is. Help us to always care for this wonderful gift from the moment that life begins.”
The programme has been criticised in the Dáil, and became a matter of public debate on a number of national radio shows.
The Irish Times reported over the weekend that a Catholic primary school in Lacken, Co Wicklow had written to parents to confirm that the school would not be using the Flourish programme.
Parents in the school had protested about the content of the programme saying they did not believe it “fit for purpose” for the teaching of Relationships and Sexuality Education (RSE) to children and that they believed its content is “discriminatory to LGBTQ+ children and families” and that it “does not correspond with the view of the State”.
The Catholic Primary Schools Management Association (CPSMA) is the body that provides advice, training and representation for boards of management. In recent guidance documents issued by Irish bishops – with the support of the CPSMA – Catholic primary schools are encouraged as part of the Flourish programme to integrate religion into all subjects, bar maths.
Noteworthy asked the CPSMA if it would talk to us about the divestment and reconfiguration process and the Flourish programme.
General Secretary Seamus Mulcrony replied: “Flourish is not a programme, it is a set of resources designed to support the teaching of the nationally agreed RSE programme developed by the NCCA [National Council for Curriculum and Assessment] through a Catholic lens. [It] deals with issues such as puberty, the basic facts of life, consent, safety etc in an age appropriate way.”
The CPSMA says that “the resources are not mandatory, and parents are perfectly free to opt out if a school is using the resources”.
Noteworthy contacted all 22 Catholic diocesan offices in the Republic of Ireland about how they had been presented with guidance on using Flourish in the way suggested by CPSMA, especially with the view of parents being able to have their child opt out. We also asked them how the divestment and school reconfiguration process has gone to date.
Five responded, including Kevin Doran, bishop of Elphin, who said that “if this is the view of the CPSMA, it has not been discussed with the diocese of Elphin”.
“Catholic schools are both inclusive and popular with people of minority faiths, not just in Ireland but internationally,” said Mulcrony.
“If memory serves me right there are more Muslim children in Catholic Schools than in the state system in the UK. There are more mentions of the Virgin Mary in the Koran than in the New Testament. At this stage most schools are well experienced at dealing with children of all faiths so we tend not to get many queries on this issue.
“In 2019, we had a total of 9,417 queries of which 18 referenced religion as an issue, in 2020 we handled 12,058 queries of which just 16 referenced religion as an issue.”
Speaking to Sarah McInerney on RTÉ Radio 1’s Drivetime in May, the Archbishop of Dublin Dermot Farrell said that the church recognises there are complexities within relationships and families and that not all consist of a man married to a woman, that the programme is not mandatory and that parents can opt their children out of the class if they wish.
Máire de Barra is one of a group of parents in and around Cork who are campaigning against the introduction of the Flourish curriculum and for non-Catholic choices for their children. She is also a teacher, working in a Catholic secondary school, and studying for DCU’s postgraduate certificate in sexuality education and sexual wellbeing.
“The SPHE/RSE curriculum is about young children exploring their social world and their place in it, this includes their friends, peers, parents, teachers as well as issues that range from friendships, relationships, love, sex, sexuality and their bodies. These topics are encountered in primary schools and developed in all their schooling years, right through to the Leaving Cert.
De Barra says that the current recommendation of the DES that each school should have a consultation process for all stakeholders (parents, teachers, students, management, board) on the approach to these topics is not always observed.
“In the publication of Flourish the Catholic bishops have taken the proposed curriculum set out by the NCCA, and intertwined the teachings of the Catholic Church into every aspect of it,” she told Noteworthy.
“Now parents who are not Catholic and are already withdrawing their children from religion are being forced to decide if their children should be excluded from a vital part of their learning with regards to social, personal and health education as well. This would mean that they would now be left to their own devices for two subjects as well as being separated from their peers as they learn important lessons on life.”
The National Council for Curriculum and Assessment is currently conducting a review of the primary school RSE programme, engaging with teachers and educators with a range of different views.
Delays and non-disclosure
So where is the Department of Education in the bigger picture of what they call a ‘reconfiguration’ to diversify primary educational ethos?
In 2018, the then-Minister for Education, Richard Bruton, announced that each of the country’s 16 Education and Training Boards (ETBs), in an “identification phase”, would survey pre-school parents in a small number of selected pilot areas.
The surveys were to be completed by mid-June 2018, after which the ETBs were charged with analysing them and drawing up a comprehensive report. This, in turn, was to be submitted to the Department of Education and Skills. At the time, the DES said it “will then subsequently publish the results”.
The reconfiguration reports were due to be published by each ETB on their website, in both English and Irish, at the end of June 2019, when Fine Gael TD Joe McHugh was Minister for Education.
At the last minute, however, this was changed.
“Please note that publishing is now being postponed slightly pending some further engagement with church representatives and ETBs should not publish the reports tomorrow,” Eddie Quinn of the DES’s forward planning section wrote to Anne McHugh, chief executive of Donegal ETB on 27 June 2019.
On 1 August 2019, Eddie Quinn advised Donegal ETB that the identification phase reports had been “deferred to allow discussions with the Irish Episcopal Conference [to] evolve towards an agreed approach to the next phase… At this stage, it is envisaged that the identification phase reports will be published in [the last quarter] of 2019.”
Almost two years after they were due to be released, none of these surveys have been published. Noteworthy submitted Freedom of Information requests to each of the 16 ETBs, who subsequently consulted with the DES about our request.
Following these consultations, the ETBs refused to provide any documentation relating to the identification phase, the school surveys, or any notes and briefings from meetings with the local majority patron which, in over 90% of cases at primary level, is either the local Catholic Church or another Roman Catholic patron.
The ETBs said that the records were part of a “deliberative process” which is yet to conclude and that releasing them would be contrary to the public interest.
The City of Dublin ETB said: “The Department states that the deliberative process does not stop with the identification phase reports… The Department believes that it is essential that the ongoing reconfiguration deliberative process is protected so that the ongoing activity of formulating, considering, weighing up, advising and deciding on issues related to the reconfiguration process is not interfered with.”
Who gets meetings with the DES – and who doesn’t
During the pandemic, the issue of ‘reconfiguring’ fell off the radar as the DES grappled with the restrictions placed on education and exams. But the DES has not completely disengaged from the process, saying that it has met representatives from the Irish Episcopal Conference on a monthly basis with a view to developing an agreed approach to the next phase of the process.
The talks between the DES and Irish bishops are taking place behind closed doors. Through a Freedom of Information request, Noteworthy asked the DES to provide correspondence, minutes of meetings, notes and emails between it and multiple Catholic trustees and patron bodies, as well as any finalised or incomplete review process for selecting schools for divestment and reconfiguration, over the past several years.
Most information was redacted, however, with the DES stating that the records were partially blanked out because, the FOI officer said, it “has been engaging with representatives of the Irish Episcopal Conference (Catholic bishops as the majority patron in the 16 areas and of schools nationwide) with a view to developing an agreed approach to the next phase of the process”.
As with the ETB response about the release of its reconfiguration reports in some pilot areas, the “ongoing ongoing deliberative process” was cited for not making records public at this time.
The DES met with the then-Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin on 9 December 2020 (see FOI – name is incorrectly noted as Diarmuid Ryan), a month before his retirement, but redacted most information on or about that meeting.
It also refused or heavily redacted (see sample FOI return to Noteworthy here) information notes of meetings between the Minister and Catholic bishops, the status of school reconfiguration identification reports, details of the Minister’s brief for a church-state plenary, and briefing notes to and from the Minister about the issue.
Much of the information provided was repeated across several documents, publicly available, or basic information and statistics also provided in press releases.
Waiting to be heard
As the process stands, an “early movers” provision places the onus on individual schools to seek a transfer of patronage, by requesting their existing patron to apply to the Minister for a direct transfer of patronage. Just one such transfer has taken place, in Two-Mile National School outside Killarney, Co Kerry, where the patronage transferred from the Catholic bishop of Kerry to the Education and Training Board.
Education Equality, a voluntary organisation which describes itself as a “campaign for equality in the provision of education for all children regardless of religion”, met with the Minister for Education Richard Bruton on 14 July 2016.
The organisation requested a meeting with Bruton’s successor, Joe McHugh, in October 2018; after an acknowledgment the following month, they heard nothing further. A second request was sent to McHugh – then acting minister for education in advance of Government formation – on 11 March 2021, but Education Equality says that no response was received.
On 10 November 2020, the organisation sought a meeting with Norma Foley “on the issue of religious discrimination in the Irish education system. In particular, we wish to discuss the daily segregation of children within the classroom on the basis of religion and the ‘opt out’ approach to faith formation”.
They contacted the Minister again on 3 February 2021, seeking a meeting but were told a day later (see letter) that Minister Foley’s diary constraints were such that she was not in a position to meet. “However, your correspondence has been sent to Department officials for a response and direct reply.”
At time of publication of this article, Education Equality says that no response has been issued.
“We enjoyed a level and depth of interaction with former Minister Bruton and former Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald (now a Fine Gael MEP) that was far better than we have since,” said David Graham of Education Equality.
The Catholic bishops’ response
Noteworthy contacted the Catholic Communications Office with a detailed list of questions about the reconfiguration process. In response, Martin Long, spokesperson for the bishops, said that the patronage of primary schools is the “remit of individual patrons”.
“On many occasions bishops have expressed their willingness and commitment to working with the Department of Education in order to bring about a more diverse landscape for patronage. Bishops will continue to work to this end in cooperation with school communities: pupils, parents and staff.”
In principle, the bishops say that they are in favour of change.
“It is important for a pluralist society to offer choice to parents concerning their preferred educational patronage route for their children,” said Long.
“From a Catholic ethos perspective, regardless of which of our patrons/trusts are involved in a school, greater choice on the educational landscape is welcomed and encouraged as serving the needs of a more diverse Irish society and this, in turn, should lead to a more vibrant educational sector.”
A response from the Ferns diocese also indicates that the appetite for divestment is not equal among parents across all parts of the country.
“The diocese did engage with this issue some years back and there was a very small interest in divestment among parents,” said Reverend John Carroll, a spokesperson for the Ferns diocese. “[It was] 2% in some few cases, 8% in one case, less in most others if memory serves me right. The results of this are likely with the Department [of Education]. No query or request for divestment has been received by the diocese.”
Áine Hyland explained that there is often little incentive for parents to begin a divestment process. “Parents and guardians know what they have – a good school with a principal and board that they like. They might only really encounter religion at communion and confirmation. It’s understandable that they’d see Educate Together or some other group and ask: who are these?
“I always said to colleagues: suppose the boot was on the other foot and, 20 years after the Dalkey School Project, the DES said they wanted to divest Educate Together schools to become Catholic. There would be an outcry: this is our school, we set it up and we will fight to prevent others taking it from us.”
Diarmuid Martin was widely seen by all stakeholders as being genuinely committed to change. He was the only bishop to ever visit an Educate Together school, meeting the Catholic Parents Committee at the school. But he was also widely perceived as a relatively lone voice.
“We discussed a wide range of issues and he was very clear that the Irish Catholic hierarchy’s engagement with education in Ireland was out of synch with the international experience of Catholic education,” says Paul Rowe, former CEO of Educate Together.
Student-led secularisation on a secondary horizon
Noticeably absent, perhaps understandably given their age, from any discussion of religion and primary education is the voice of the pupil, save for representations from their parents.
There is, however, a more vocal and growing student clamour around the future of faith and schooling at secondary level.
Jack McGinn, education officer-elect of the Irish Second Level Students’ Union (ISSU), told Noteworthy that his organisation believes that “all educational facilities, including both primary and second-level schools, should be completely secular”.
While there are dedicated Catholic youth organisations with a vibrant young membership, such as Youth2000, the majority of young people in Ireland are not as religious as might be expected from at least eight years of Catholic religious instruction.
“We recognise that some students are religious,” says McGinn. “We firmly believe that all students should be able to practice their religion. We should have equal accommodations for all students of all religions in schools settings when necessary including, for example, accommodations for Muslim students during Ramadan.
“We believe that the change has to start at the primary level. Multi-denominational schools work best for students, in which all students can practice all religions without promoting one single religion [above others].
“Schools are a place to grow and to learn, not a place to have ideologies and religious beliefs taught to students.”
***
Read part two of this investigation into the impact of the delays around moving Ireland towards greater choice in its primary education system: “We didn’t want to leave – we just wanted them to experience dignity in school.”
***
This investigation was carried out by Peter McGuire for Noteworthy and edited by Susan Daly. It was proposed and funded by you, our readers.
Noteworthy is the community-sourced investigative journalism platform from The Journal. You can support our work by helping to fund one of our other investigation proposals or submitting an idea for a story. Click here to find out more >>
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He said Gardai should treat people with respect it works both ways minister
I wouldn’t bring my wife into a gang of fired up mules either, they’re legends for scorin dolls!!
I know this site like to bash around Ministers but could we avoid stooping to racism?
I reckon his wife knows he’s a @#@#@*** anyway.
How do you find my remark racist?
Your comment was clearly racist. If you can’t see how go look up the meaning of the word.
Orgone, David is paid by Fine Gael to defend its ministers using social media. Don’t pay too much attention to him, maybe he’ll go away
Ah Mike….thats a nasty comment. You can despise Shatter if you want but dont assume that his wife shares your views.
Even if what you say is true, Orgone is still being antisemitic. Way to pick a side dude.
Sean,I’m quite sure his wife can read and reads through forums and newspapers where people make comments on their views .
So unless there is a media blackout she knows exactly what people think of him.
Maybe she decided she didn’t want to go because she knew this was going to happen.
You’ve got it all wrong. Sinn Féin pays its people to come on and accuse me of being paid to post, distracting from their own payments and using up all that Northern Bank money in the process.
Ever wonder why they only pay you guys in Sterling? :P
Clinton
You’re behaving like a plonker. Politicians are fair game but leave their spouses out of it as I pt just makes you look like a degenerate.
Mike
Fora! It’s the plural …..ok?
Love it!
Oh my goodness….me a plonker and a degenerate !!!.
Well coming from the chief twit from twitter and perhaps one of (if not the) biggest muppet (outside this diseased cancer of a government) .
Now go back to your kenny doll and carry on practicing.
a lot of comments missing, the journal stop censoring the people, your sight is losing credibility, its just like another RTE.
So the minister is glad he didn’t bring his wife to a work related function where members of An Garda Síochána refused to applaud him because he is the very man that is trying to issue further cuts to their hard earned wages earnt by working unsociable hours with some of the poorest equipment in Europe! The poor divil anyway!!!
?!?! How has this incident not been highlighted recently? i must have missed this. Jesus how can he be the minister for justice after his wife was arrested for drink driving? This would explain how he has distain for the gardai?
This little court appearance happened just before he was appointed Justice minister (obviously)??
Mammy, they weren’t niiiice to me!
Is this lad for real? I mean seriously, he treats the gardai with contempt in his approach and he expects courtesy and respect in return? What planet is he living on?
Hhhhmmmm. I seem to remember a certain politician messing with his phone while at an audience with the Pope , an Image that was beamed around the world and showed Paddy up as the thick ignoramus.
didn’t hear Shatter complaining about that rudeness , ah well what do you expect
Why not Shatter? The little lady wouldn’t be able for violent protests like 4 mandated members walking out? Explains Varadkar wanting to keep the ladies at home. Shocking stuff altogether! ;)
An audience with The Pope, I love those programmes, have you seen the one with Elton John?
He was wearing her dress instead !
It’s more of the public servant bashing we hear on a daily basis from the blueshirts. If those sergeants are punished for staging a silent protest its a joke and a travesty.
Bring the wife to work they said…. Be grand they said!!!!
What business would his wife have at an AGSI conference?
She was invited. By the organisers.
Free Lunch.
Drink?
My thoughts exactly surely she has no reason to be there
It was date night!
They invited her
Out of courtesy, I doubt she was expected to be in attendance.. also he was short on time so was clearly unable to make the dinner himself.. This is all nothing more than an attempt to erode some of the support for the force
Alan Shatter … your wife would have no reason to attend the conference other than getting a free meal ….. don’t use her as an excuse .. stand up and take it ! .. you knew what you signed up to when you got elected ! Isn’t that the line you are trotting out about the gardai ? Just get on with it !
Listening to his interview this evening he came across as an arrogant man, I can’t imagine him ever having a connection with his electorate so I actually feel for the Garda because I would find it very hard not to kick the fcuk out of him at the negotiating table.
He came across very arrogant, because he is very arrogant. Good call.
I’m glad I didn’t bring my wife to listen to his interview with me. She can’t handle arrogance.
Sorry, am I missing something here? Was the man booed or heckled or pelted with eggs or rotten tomatoes?
Reading news articles, I thought some people just quietly walked out during the speech.
What did he expect, after the cuts he’s made, a standing ovation?
Don’t tell me Mr Shatter is as fragile as his name suggests.
If he’s as thin-skinned as that he’s in the wrong job and just wait till he goes round the doorsteps at the next election!!
Exactly Mary! What did they do wrong? Sitting and listening to Shatter is my idea of hell. I would have done more than just walk out.
Just shows you how disconnected he (and many others in his party) are from reality
If you want respect you should show respect.
Unlike the wives of those present, Shatter’s wife was probably happy enough back in their big house, enjoying his big government wage
This is what he’s worried about! Just proves that these guys are completely out of touch.
Probably best that Mrs. Shatter stayed at home in her ivory tower!!
What a terrible attitude to the “bring your missus to work” day.
You do not get respect, you have to earn it. Shatter and Callanan have not earned it.
I’d argue the decisions he has to make are unavoidable, but my God he needs to find a sense of humility in his approach or he won’t get anyone on board with these cuts.
And if he could refer to Derry properly that would be good too.
i would argue against David,
but you’re right about his utter lack of humility –
Is he trying to piss everybody off?
the cuts to the Garda are pure arseholery
and he is a fool of a politician
You mean as “Slash city”?
I bet the ol bill were pleased she stayed away too. If she’d been there, would she have paid her own way or would we have picked up the tab for that too ???
Applause to the Gardaí that refused to listen to the spin of a minister who has savaged their income . When someone who goes out in the morning and may not come back in the evening – yes it is the job they chose to do – should have the right not to listen to platitudes about how great they and how bad a state the economy is in are when some have to cycle to work because they can’t afford petrol for their car . The best trick the previous government played was to put the private sector to war with the public servants . Political comments have eviscerated the pay scales etc . Yes there needs to a performance related structure in place that is vital across the public sector . As one myself I can’t wait for it to come in I don’t fear it one iota . There are a significant no of hard working public servants that would deservedly merit from this . Hard working individuals have every right to treat their ministerial head with distain for all their platitudes and unfulfilled promises . I hope my colleagues in the IMO ,who have given James Reilly a long honeymoon , will have the balls follow suit for continuing the harney hatchery of the health service in the past 2 years since taking office cutting our income 5 times to date within and without Croke Park thru FEMPI . They have to accept responsibility and backlash their actions incur
Gary get real. We BORROW the money to pay them and have 450,000 unemployed and 100,000 emigrated.
Come on, much of what you say is true but it didn’t take a government to “put the private sector at war with the public servants”. A fair solution needs to be fair to all sides. We can’t afford the PS at the present size and cost. It’s as simple as that. No war, just fact. All that said, I know where I want the cuts to start (Shatter)
You refer to them as if they are parasites on the state as opposed to the educators , protectors and care givers of our citizens . Yes there were many mistakes made in the boom times re bench marking and non performance based pay increments but these individuals have what appear to e good jobs but many are now living in poverty . It’s bad enough having 450000 unemployed and however many more emigrated but its a catastrophic situation when a significant cohort of these public servants in jobs are now forced to compete with those emigrating by looking for an sustainable standard of living elsewhere . I know for a fact that’s happening in my profession and others . Absolutely publi service needs reform and performance related structures out in place and any inertia removed but the vast majority are hard working but their salaries and much talked about pensions did not bankrupt the state the banks did
Censored the above comment was for Liam Treacy’ I am in agreement with what you say for the most part . Yes the PS in a lot of areas is bloated and nos need to come down . Where there are inefficiencies that is due to management ineptitude or incapacity to make changes due to legal or governmental directives . Every parent wants their child taught in a school with a favourable pupil teacher ratio , or adequate SNA resource teaching or enough cops on the beat or local Garda station to remain open or enough nurses in the ward where ones sick relative or enough GPs to deal with your day to day health needs . The issue for many of these public servants is their jobs are no longer viable to meet their day to day . Many had to buy their house 10 years ago . Their slightly more favourable pension is no good to them at present . Already many of these individuals with jobs have to emigrate as opposed to want to which has two effects , one compete with those without jobs who have to emigrate and the other to denude vital public service to the citizens . I know of several long established GPs who have already emigrated and more will follow suit , that’s just my profession . Everyone is suffering , but the public service issues are not as simple as many pundits will have you believe . Bad as things are now there will be a worse manpower crisis here of teachers medical professionals etc because quality of life will be better elsewhere to raise families as grow professionally
Mr Shatter is a very patronising man
Almost as bad as Micky Mc. He tried to screw the Gardai too….didn’t he end up having to resign?
They’re all very patronising.
I suppose they are just so used to patronising one another all the time that they just can’t help themselves when it comes to dealing with the rest of us. It makes me sick to hear them roar and shout and slag and jeer each other every day in the Dail, and then they head out to Europe all dressed up and tippin’ the cap.. All the while oblivious to the suffering they are causing back home. I really hope they get the land of their life one of these days..
I think we need a proper hard lined grizzled veteran no nonsense ex Garda as our minister of justice.
Yea…Luggs Brannigan would be great! He would knock heads together in the negotiations!
With all thats going on, this is what this imbecile comes out with?? Gardai didnt stand up for him or applaud him. This has obviously cut him deep. Same as the you tube video which hurt the poor Commissioners feelings and well, he wasted no time in hunting down those perpetrators. These pair are utterly embarrassing so high in their ivory towers the have completely lost touch with reality and while crime levels soar and the crisis facing Gardai intensifies THIS is what is of concern to this blistering idot. Its mind boggling.
I was at the AGSI conference in Sligo, the Minister came into the conference, he was greeted by every member of the AGSI executive who shook his hand. The acting president addressed him on the concerns and fears of the members of AGSI, the Minister was given the opportunity to make his own speech which he did for over 45 minutes. At the end of the Ministers speech he was thanked for attending the conference by the president and we were informed by the president that the Minister was under pressure for time and had to leave immediately. He was walked from the building to his car by members of the AGSI executive. He didn’t receive applause from the delegates, he entered and exited in silence from the delegates. 4 delegates left the conference very discreetly as the minister began to speak to show their own protest by the proposed cuts to Garda pay!
Adrian this goes to show the AGSI have no balls. All the Ass Licking in the world won’t get them anything from Shatter especially Respect. He is only Laughing at Them.
Plonker !!!
Respect My Authoritaaaah.
She’d have been totally Shattered!
Walking out on the patronising speech of a man who’s actions continue to attack their jobs, welfare, income and families is hardly inappropriate, unless it is too heart-breakingly light a response to his demented attacks on them.
Support the Gardaí, or we’re all in the government firing line next.
If shatters wife needs an alternate Date to these affairs I am available most evenings ??
Would be too upsetting for Marie Antoinette to see how angry those peasants are
Shatter & Callinan out.
Is this a joke! Well boo woo shatter got some resistance to your one sided cuts.
Kenny doesn’t debate anything? Shatter feels sad when people protest, I predict some new laws coming, “always agree and smile with the Govt”
#igiveup
I can think of a better date night.
Respect is a two way street. It is not an entitlement, it is earned, not to be demanded or owed. The arrogance of our public representatives knows no bounds and the sooner the Croke Park II so called deal is voted down the sooner proper, respectful, reasonable negotiations can begin.
What are they disciplining these people for? In relation to what offence? Does anyone know?
This seems bizarre to say the least. I can see a High Court case coming on. This smells a little bit unconstitutional to me. They just walked out of a room, unless there’s something else going on here that hasn’t been reported.
What did he expect a huge round of applause and a thank you minister! Come round to yourself Shatter you clown
Alan upset by the ” Silence of Garda” ahhhhh.
I don’t believe I’ve ever heard a Minister stating that any Union body were “Not courteous or reasonable” when they utilised their right to protest but then, GRA and AGSI are not recognised unions. If four Gardai (who were not working) who walked out of their conference while an ‘invited guest’ was speaking are disciplined, the whole organisation should come together as one and show that they won’t be bullied because at the moment, it is clear that that is what the Commissioner and Minister Shatter are doing at the moment.
Fair enough, she was invited. It’s standard common courtesy to do so.
But his using her in the context of his interview today was absolutely pathetic.
What did he expect !!! Bell end !
I think he’s just trying to put himself in a good light . Trying to make out that he’s such a gentleman compared with the others who attended the dinner .
I think he should “get real ” .
This is not Downton Abbey !
Ooh mumsy, the big bad guards don’t play nice!
Oh Jesus Alan. Who in their right mind would pity you and yours given your tactics? You’re a bullshitter and its a long way down from your pedestal boy. Your wife deserved to see you talk down to the people who stand their posts and risk their lives.
They are all desperate for the place of Tool #1 in the government… Himself and Quinn are neck and neck at this stage! Where is that troll lad reginold with some random useless info about nothing? Doesn’t he comment on everything!
He will have plenty to winge about after the next election when he follows the Kerry bull and and hard man dermot into oblivion
And yet Red C says no….
I hope the Gardai stand firmly behind their colleagues and show that condescending fart that mean business.
What did the muooet expect warms hugs. He is destroying the force. Does he also want a pat on the back.
Goverment ministers are starting to get heat and they are not likinh it.
She is living in a carlsberg world with the troll
cuts? hes looking for cuts is he?im sure theres no shortage of people who would like accommadate him
Minister shatter . You are lettin yourself down and whatever good you think you have done in your political life has being erased due to your actions since being appointed minister of justice . and ex – minister Nora Owen should really just get her facts right before she makes any more statements on the Gardai
. It certainly shows to me that Fine Gael really don’t give a damn about Gardai or in fighting crime . Shame on them
wonder why she decided not to go.. probably didn’t fancy the menu
I pity the poor Gardai driver having to bring sharter home after the conference I wonder what the conversation was about
an embarassment of a minister in a long list of embarassing fg/lab government misisters… justifies the closing of garda stations by saying he even closed the one in his election area, there again not everybody has their own garda 24 hours outside their front door,,,that man or woman deserves a medal to have to protect such an arrogant minister who looks down on the force …then uses his position to discipline people who walk out on a speech.So much for a democratic society. whats next disciple the rest of the delegates for not giving him a standing ovation.Took FG ministers just 2 years to display the arrogance that FF ministers displayed during their long tenure in government.Roll on next election get rid of them and give their biggest fears a chance SF.
Cry baby!!
Justice and defense minister all rolled into one. Our little country is the only country in the world bar North Korea where such a set up exists..scary
What a plonker!
and again the way they try to get to us is to make us feel guilty. Like we are embarrassing ourselves. And an embarrassment to Europe. Bit too late for that I’m already numb!
could imagine the breakfast table in his house if the wife joined the garda and walked out woman deserves our sympathy for having to live with an arrogant condesending ass
Well done you 4 brave lads. Don’t take any shit from the Appointed Assistant Commissioner you face Tomorrow he/she is just another Shatter Lackey and will not get any Respect from the Irish People if There is any Sanction taken against ye. Fight the good Fight for all Gardai and the Decent People Of Ireland. Respect to you all.
Don’t disagree, John.
am sure he is a barrel of laughs at weddings when asked to give a speech
Anyone know what sentence she got for drunk driving ? Or did she swap seats with him?
Shatter is rich and entitled, the main weakness in his type is that they believe they are smarter than everyone else, his weakness is now being highlighted in the public domain. A family law solicitor does not have the experience required for the job of Minister for Justice no more than a teacher has the experience required for Taoiseach, the lack of experience coupled with arrogance is a dangerous mix
Boo hoo poor thing. He must be shattered.
Think she stayed out in the car outside the conference because she was just “waiting for a mate”
This is an old solicitor trick to look behind you and pretend that the crowd are spurring you on to reveal the scandal..ie the insult felt. Playing to a larger audience now though who can see the ‘act’ for what it is.. Backfired badly.
I cannot understand how Alan Shatter or any TD or Senator can flaunt their spouse at any function in these days of austerity packages and cut backs.
Lads, I think the Gardai have hurt Alan Shatter’s feelings by not clapping his speech……He’s glad his wife wasn’t there to witness it……………….playground politics……..hope his mammy gave him a clean hanky before he went and made sure he had washed his hands!
‘they’ mean business
i applause the garda that walked out,, at least that is all they did,, shatter has closed his own door for the next election one less fg liar to take out, and if we are a free country with free speech and now these guys up on remand,, its a disgrace,, if you dont agree get out is the fg and labor motto,, no hope for anyone standing up to them not even their own ministers are allowed an opinion,, think the government need robots to sit and listen to them and their bad ideas, as anyone with half a brain would have a comment to make about these austerity cutbacks,,, now if a few of our ministers would get a bit of back bone and say enough maybe just maybe they may get treated with respect from the irish,, but oops would get the boot to silly me
Only a gobsh:te would say that
He could talk for Ireland. When he is being interviewed ,the whole time is taken up by him in his :I am always right: tone.The interviewee cannot get a word or question in.I always think, why are you having him on. He likes the noise his mouth makes.I note from the above comments ,how popular he is NOT. His wife got a bargain.She’s welcome.
She was invited to a work dinner. Hardly unprecedented.
Grow a set ,Shatter. Your the boss , take the flak and shut up crying. Your bird has no right going with you on official business , get professional , wise up , work with the Garda not against them ya muppet!!!!
The minister for ?
A genuine case of Napoleon Syndrome. Shameful Shatter is now embarrassing his wife by hiding behind her. Very poor indeed! This story is only beginning.
The Garda that walked out might have needed to just go to the toilet…probably to empty the bullshit from his ears.
The bare faced cheek of him he’s lucky all they did was walk out
Aw .. poor Alan .. mommy’ll get you a plaster!!
Kevin Shaw how do you know that.
Bullshatter!
Gardai and AGSI are trying to bully the minister and the rest of the country. They keep saying they represent their members. They blew the negotiations and are trying to blame the other side. The minister represents an elected government with a massive majority. We’ve all read about the scandalous allowances that were secret for so long! We know about the Garda scandals. We know about the report done by the US police chief Kelly.
There are 450,000 unemployed and 100,000 emigrated. My son, recently redundant has to wait 3 months to get benefits because his p45 was messed up by a bust employer. The Gardai have it good and now paid for by borrowings we will never see the end of.
You think the Guards have it great. Are you serious. PS. Not the Guards fault the P45 went missing.
1. Gardai were never involved in talks to begin with.
2. Allowances were never kept secret and were giving instead of increases to core pay as it is easier to remove an “allowance” than core pay.
3. 13000 individuals in the force so theres bound to b one or two bad apples
4. Your young lad is claiming the dole? Isnt the tax payer forking out for that two? Dont the Gardai pay tax?
Everyone on state pay or benefits are beneficiaries of funds paid by non state taxpayers! There is no money! did i say the guards have it great? NO. they have it a lot better than most. they get paid!
A lot are arrogant and ill mannered not just a few. The force have let themselves down badly here. A lot of public dismay among the people i speak to. The Claire Daly issues have also shocked people in addition to Donegal and many other scandals in recent years.
Every Minister in recent times has been berated by the guards. Governments have capitulated and increased numbers when what was needed was reform and management. Can’t do it now as the Troika adults are in charge!
All ministers were elected and appointed by government and deserve to be treated with respect. Especially when they speak openly and honestly. Mr Shatter has a direct style we need more of……
Were allowances subject to tax?
Hell of a lot of guards posting here.
What do you work at Harry ?
I think Harry is a retired Garda.
Arrogant Pratt! Hopefully others will do the same to this shameless bunch of self servers. This Government are so arrogant and condescending and so out of touch it’s unbelievable.
policing is about respect and not anger and imtimidation and being a bully. the gardai have failed their country, its people and want to dictate.,In saying this im marked .
Harold Price. Public enemy No.1
You have proof of this, of course.
have your say