Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
The Daily PollTHE MINISTER FOR Justice will today outline plans for a sweeping overhaul of how gardaí operate, including a new power for gardaí to request passwords or encryption keys for electronic devices.
The new legislation aims to make changes based on the recommendations of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland.
Under the new law people would be required to provide passwords for access to electronic devices when gardaí are carrying out a search under warrant.
While some people have welcomed the move, others have said it encroaches on people’s civil liberties.
What do you think: Should it be an offence to refuse to give gardaí a password to an electronic device?
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
Only with a search warrant. Imagine if every guard that pulled you over demanded the password, it would be chaos.
@Lisa Jones: you can just say that you don’t have your phone with you. It’s that simple to beat the system.
@Eoin Fitzgerald: Then they would search you and the car and if you didn’t give them the password, they would arrest you.
@Eoin Fitzgerald: what about a stop and search? This is definitely gonna be abused it’s the Gardaí we’re talking about! If this legislation is to go through there has to mandatory bodycams worn otherwise it will be abused.
@Lisa Jones: my phone is an extension of my brain and there are things in there that no man should be subjected to! Search warrant or not they are gonna need a blow torch and a pair of pliers to get an unlock code out of me
@Tomo: They can arrest me so. Won’t be giving any Garda my password for the phone.
@Lisa Jones: it says with search warrant
@Realist: yeah not sure anyone read the article tbh. Just got outraged as if the guards want to be reading your texts to your missus. It’s aimed at criminals, ya know……. dealers, murderers, perverts. Not you joe soap driving down the road .
@JMcB: hahahaha 100%
@Roy Dowling: Then you’ll be in court, as it will be an offence. And you will get a criminal record.
Just like the thousands of people every week for having a bit of cannabis in their house.
@seanieP: aimed my a
@david lydon: who is it for then? Why would the gardai be searching yiur house with warrant if weren’t suspect of crime ?.
@Eoin Fitzgerald: eh maybe they will search you then !!!! Hello
@JMcB: So its a couple of years out of date as you haven it bothered for an upgrade. That feels about right.
A court order must be required first
@Brían Ó Cionnaith: And then what? If you refuse or claim you’ve forgotten your computer password, it’d take any compitent engineer minutes to get around it. I imagine, despite what’s claimed, it’s much the same with phones.
If this should become a trend or a serious issue I can see third party companies developing methods of encryption that can’t be easily circumvented.
@Arch Angel: My password for my computer can’t be figured out by pretty much anyone.
First.. you have to know which video game I have a love/hate relationship with. Then you need to know which word I would shorten and how, out of the entire title, then you would need to know which bits were translated into a different language *and which language*.
Honestly, if someone did manage to figure out my computer’s password, they would deserve serious respect.
@Mirabelle Stonegate: I don’t think you understand, there are methods of circumventing your password, or revealing it.
@Arch Angel: not if youve encrypted the hard drive itself
@Mirabelle Stonegate: something tells me I wouldn’t want to see what’s on your computer…
@Mirabelle Stonegate: hi i have done it bios pass word account password if it is made bye human theres always a back door if i got your computor i could go shoping rember what ever you do on computors stays on hard drive the only way two stop destroy you hard drive every bit of it the disc in side need to be destroyed and rember people who fix computer s can gather info about you banking etc mobile phones as well
@Mirabelle Stonegate: A brute force attack might tell you different. Special characters, capitals etc. are good in a password but, it needs to be long, like a phrase or something. Don’t come on a platform like this boasting that your password can’t be cracked. That’s like showing a red rag to a bull.
@Sean Murnin: Thanks for that not boasting o bulls are partially color blind you need two read what i said
@Joseph Nolan: First of all, I wasn’t addressing you, as someone qualified in this area I was merely making a suggestion to Mirabelle. Second, you need to go back to school and brush up on your grammar, admittedly, mine isn’t great but, your’s is absolutely atrocious. I’m not even going to get into the “colour deficiency” and “red rag to a bull” statement with you, I feel you would be to stupíd to understand. Maybe you could research it when you go back to school for the grammar lessons? Hopefully they work out for you and, I look forward to a coherent response sometime in the future.
@Sean Murnin: Thanks im doing my best im learning my A B C
As someone qualified in this area why is your facebook giving so much info on you i could hand you a pizza to your door you should have learend that at Digital Forensics & Cyber Security at ITB BLANCHARDSTOWN
ops A B C D E F
@Joseph Nolan: Jesus Joe, I have nothing to hide. It’s a Facebook account, not a bank account.
If you could deliver a pizza to my door, what is my address? Go ahead, post it here, I don’t mind.
Seriously man, grow up. I have no reason to pursue any of your online accounts pal so don’t give me one.
So we’re going to see scenarios where the
Gardai want to access your phone so that they can destroy any evidence you have against them
And what ever happened to the right to silence ?
@Ibhar Mac Suibhne: read the article before commenting
@Tony Lyons: No comment
This is a massive overreach! The right to remain silent and not incriminate oneself should be applied in this scenario as well! Disgrace if this gets passed!
@∞/21M Bernard Wallace: it’s only if they have a search warrant. They can’t randomly ask people on the street.
@Conor Egan: you should still have the right to remain silent. We don’t have that right here. Iys too easy for law enforcement yo twist your words. Justice should have to swim against the current, too easy to lock up innocent people.
@∞/21M Bernard Wallace: there is no right to silence, past changes in the law leave this open to an admission of guilt. There were past reports of such searches of phones and laptops being used for terrorist and white collar crimes but here we are with a further erosion of our civil liberties all touted as the public good
@Conor Egan: obviously most of the people commenting here did not read the article. Unless you have something to hide why would you object? They have a warrant so they must have sufficient evidence already
@Eileen Hennessy: Do you realise what a cosy relationship the Gardai and judges have? The system to get a warrant needs to be overhauled. It’s very questionable and too easy for Gardai to destroy your civil liberties and lock up innocent people in this country.
ONLY if they’ve a warrent. The poll question isn’t clear.
@Tricia G: They could have 10 warrants and it doesn’t matter. This was decided by the Supreme Court in Heaney vs Ireland. Under our constitution (Article 38.1) we have a right to silence in custody and are protected from being compelled to make self-incrimatory statements. This would naturally seem to include being compelled to provide phone or decryption passwords as such information could well be self-incriminating.
In response the prosecutor at your trial may infer that you would not answer these questions because they would incriminate you and then it’s up to a jury to decide based on the preponderance of that and all other evidence.
@John Considine: ‘would naturally seem’ is a very wooly way of saying ‘in my opinion’.
Doubtless, this will be tested under such an approach, but I personally do not believe that the soft right to silence, would or should provide cover for refusing to provide passwords to encrypted devices, when ordered to by a court.
There is a lot of catching up to be done vis a vis encryption, rights and legislation. The concepts we are used to were formed without any recourse to currently available technology. The idea that criminals should be easily able to have unbuggable communications should concern anyone.
@Donal McCarthy: And a back door into communication devices by governments is of much larger concern for our RIGHT to privacy. With technology changing and advancing so rapidly, it has been demonstrated how important the right to privacy is.
Legislation should work AROUND our right to privacy, not against it. I can’t wait until legislation like this is overruled by legislation in European Parliament for being too draconian and against GDPR.
“While some people have welcomed the move” some people being the guards.
I remember when this type of invasive power, spying on citizens, the removal of all personal freedoms, used to be held up as all that was wrong with the former Soviet Union!
What separated the western world and was held up as the beacons of justice were, personal freedoms and the right of privacy and that those rights extended to everyone.
Now our politicians are happy to push forward with invasive policing powers without a single reservation, or concern about the erosion of those very rights that were previously held in such high regard.
The standard response to any and all objections is, that if you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear, that has been the standard line for all regimes that suspend personal freedoms in the past, including the Soviets and the Nazis.
@David Van-Standen: “if you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear”
The fascist’s mantra!
Gardai aren’t the problem. Tis the courts system.
@Eoin Fitzgerald: Gardai are the problem, as are the courts.
They can ask what they Like! .. You have the right to remain silent USE IT
They do t even do there job with powers they have. Cancelling domestic abuse calls? Every Guard responsible for that should be sacked. Imagine working up the courage to make that call(I don’t have to, I grew up like that) abs the Guards cancel it, don’t investigate abs never arrive! Unconscionable!
80 Gardai now suspended [74 per April Commissioner report], around 1 out of 200 in the force! The Garda corruption trial in Limerick is serious enough that a judge decided its in front of a jury in the circuit courts yet no front pages? The Dubai Two got a lot different treatment for way less serious crimes!
Its becoming a police state as it is.The government are controlling the people of Ireland.They say jump and we say how high.Fighting Irish are long gone……
@Kieran Byrne: Would ya give over. A police state.
@Kieran Byrne: You have no idea what a police state is like if you are making that comparison.
@Ed: Police states have to start somewhere. The Weimar Republic was a modern western democracy. Look how that worked out.
I think philosophy, politics, implications of public policy, critical thinking skills, etc need to be taught at second level as they are severely lacking in this country in my opinion.
Next up it will be a offence to criticise political figures or their policies. I assume everyone here is a law abiding citizen but give the guards to do this, I reckon is in breech of EU and Irish law. the guards should have a court order like in any other Democratic county. This law will be abused 100%.
@Alan Richard Scott Jr.: I guess you didn’t read beyond the headline?
This will only happen if there is a search warrant in place.
Nope. It should be illegal with or without a search warrant.
The Gardai need to stop being lazy. Everyone has the right to privacy.
@Tomo: wtf is that supposed to mean? This is a method for them to obtain evidence against criminals.
Generally we in society like the police to be able to investigate and prosecute crimes
@Karl: Your phone is an extension of your brain. Your entire life, your passwords, emails, sensitive information, bank cards, everything is on there. This is equivalent to getting a brain scan that can tell the Gardai information that’s in your brain.
It would be handy for high profile criminal investigations, but I still don’t agree with the implications. It would be a slippery slope. This law will just end up being used for non-violent small possession of drugs. Watch.
@Karl: Yes, but most people aren’t criminals. They’re entitled to privacy and reasonable proof, plus a trial before they’re convicted of any crimes. Police need valid proof of suspected criminal activity – it isn’t enough to start tapping calls or rooting through everyone’s phones on the off chance that every hundredth person uses their phone for criminal actions.
No it’s a civil liberties issue. That would require a constitutional change as we have the right to remain silent to protect against self incrimination.
(a) not every member of the force is honourable. Indeed if you become a thorn in their side you can precipitate some pretty bad behaviour which can be near impossible to rectify. (b) your passwords are about a whole lot more than just your alleged criminal activity.
From the article it says if the search is part of of a search warrant, so it wouldn’t be a case of random guards stopping you asking for your phone. So under warrant if they’re searching for child abuse images or drug gangs I’d be fine with it being an offence. That said it’s pretty easy to get around most phone locks. The guards tech department could do it with little hassle. Encryption is another matter but I’m sure that can be done too
In addition to giving Gardai more powers of authority, there should also be civilian authorities to oversee gardai practices. With the power to compell testimony from as high up as 6he commissioner. Our national intelligence services should be separated from An Garda Siochana as well, this will remove the option to refuse questions based on national security that the commissioner currently has.
“I forgot my password under pressure” is going to become a very common legal defence.
What if you forget your password? You’re arrested for obstruction? You’re sent for a psych evaluation?
Depends on what your been arrested for. If you haven’t taxed your car know if drugs murder related crimes yes.
A lot of people on here looking to safeguard the rights of paedophiles and drug dealers by voting no. These new laws don’t target the ordinary decent citizen. Gardai will only be allowed to access this info when a serious offence is being investigated.
@Mairtin Antaine O Conaill: Wrong. It’ll be used against regular people including those in possession of a gram of cannabis.
We’d all be happy if they were going to use it against actual criminals and gangs but that’s not going to happen. It’s the Gardai we’re talking about here lol
@Mairtin Antaine O Conaill: you have to use The extreme end of the spectrum don’t you? Nobody is protecting predators.
@Mairtin Antaine O Conaill: no it’s not. It’s a check on the overstepping of government as every citizen has a right to privacy. Garda I should seek consent to break into a device if they cannot then they should be able to break into a device. But the constitution protects you from self incrimination and gives you the right to silence.
@Mairtin Antaine O Conaill: ah bless
@Tomo: no it won’t. You continue to be over dramatic though!!! Complete lies.
@Alan Richard Scott Jr.: that’s what the law is being introduced for, not to target clowns with a gram or two of cannabis or some sunny day “protester” recording the guards. You continue to be ign orant of the discussion though.
@Ciaran Burke: the right of silence has no bearing on technology. If that was the case a drink driver could refuse to provide a sample on the same basis. Pure id iot mentality.
@Tomo: possessing an illegal drug makes you an actual criminal.. doesn’t matter if it’s a gram or a kilogram..
@Mirabelle Stonegate: it does in the eyes of the law, small amounts of drugs is not an arrest-able offence. Hence the reason these powers can only be used for serious arrest-able offences.
My sister had the exact problem a few years ago driving back from the airport. Basically pulled by a patrol car and garda claimed to have seen her on her mobile while driving earlier that evening. She protested and he demanded she unlocked her phone and show him the call history. Needless to say she did not but it will be abused
And if you forget your passcode? Or use your right to remain silent? What happens then?
The Gardai steal your phone or you remain in jail?
No…allow this then it will be something else later…don’t want a police state.
@Hear me now: it was already something else before, now it’s this, so the direction of travel is already away from personal liberty. :(
They should have their random drug tests first.
@Mary Nugent: Random drug tests for the gardaí before they question you seems a bit harsh…
@William Tallon: It would kind of explain all those car boots full of breathalyser tests, all the same!
I completely understand that Garda often need access to items in order to further proper justice. However, it must be done under the supervision of a court, with judge permission obtained and proven justified to that judge, to even suspend a persons rights to privacy.
Any carte blanche Garda access allowed to be given without appropriate oversight, is a fundamental weakening of basic human rights. Fianna Fail, and especially Fine Gael, have consistently worked towards doing this through various ways and already practised procedures backed up by questionable legislation.
We should not wish to stop Garda doing their job. Far from it! We should wish to see better justice achieved through better formulated, accountable at every step, procedures. I support justice alongside checks and balances taken into better account and practised.
Yes, but only as outlined if you are being searched under a warrant
The poll question should have included in it “where a search warrant has been served……”
Of course the vast majority of people in this poll have voted no. The poll question is incorrect and it’s misleading.
I like the idea but I do not trust the individual members of the force and I think this is a slippery slope to give them on the spot demand for access.
@Ciaran Keegan: it can’t be an “on the spot ” demand. the warrant must be obtained first , after presenting a judge with sufficient evidence that a search is necessary. That takes time.
The right to silence or self incriminate?!
@john: indeed. How is this any different to it being a legal requirement to allow Gardai enter your home with a search warrant?
@Karl: Excuse my innocence but does a search warrant cover a house or a named person? If you call into a new neighbour and the house is suddenly raided, does that mean that you are suspected of unknown crimes and have no rights, just because you happened to be passing? I’d like to think people will not be mistreated or blackmailed because a criminal is in the area. But it can happen. Sure look at all the unlucky people arrested on suspicion of being gay? They wouldn’t want their contacts including family copied to some police record, and rightly so.
yes i agree with the comment about the right of silence, so when asked just invoke your right to silence and surely it would be against human rights to make the right to silence a criminal offence.
@M: you need to refresh your law degree
The right to silence is not absolute for starters and Gardai already have legal powers to demand information from people. Ever given a breath sample at a checkpoint?
Not a bloody chance. When dealing with agents of the state the less said the better. A guard is never to be trusted.
if you have nothing to hide, why not?
@Roger Kennington: There’s always one who comes out with a comment like that. Would you be happy for the State to take it all the way and spy on your every move just because you’ve nothing to hide? The issue here is privacy which has being eroded incrementally over years, this measure is only another stepping stone in that process;it will not end here.
@Roger Kennington: apply this logic to gardai up in arms because there has been an attempt to compell them to take mandatory drug tests….yet this logic doesn’t seem to apply to them….
@Roger Kennington: so why not go the whole hog and require everyone to lodge all their passwords with the Guards? See the problem yet? Not all Guards are honourable, and the Guards computers are just as vulnerable to data breaches as anyone else’s.
@Roger Kennington: I have nothing to hide.. but I still don’t like people digging through my life. Which is on my devices.
There is a reason I don’t use social media for anything other than a login. And why I haven’t for over a decade.
There’s a reason why I have worked to effectively scrub my existence from the internet, and have largely succeeded.. all that’s left are a couple of long-abandoned profiles on sites I haven’t looked at in years.
I never use my real name online either..
I have nothing to hide, other than myself, as I’m surprisingly private.
@Roger Kennington: I’m not running a business but imagine for example that you had a safe and anyone in a uniform could demand the code from you. Let’s say money disappears and you can’t pay your staff that week. Who suffers? Who is accountable? Who do you report it to?
This is a prelude to a police state!!!
@Bernard A Kavanagh: gdpr very specifically does NOT apply to law enforcement.
If you’ve nothing to hide and there’s a search warrant then what’s the problem?
It only becomes a problem if it’s abused, the current scandal regarding personal information and how Trump abused his powers in this regard is a warning and shows how important it is to separate Law enforcement and Politics
Not even the wife gets my password
Garda – “What’s your Password?”
Crim – “not telling – up yours copper!”
Garda – # Holds phone up – facial recognition unlocks #
Crim – “Ah bleedin eck!!” (Or words to that effect)
I think they should have to have a search warrant , otherwise its invasion of privacy .
Garda just looking to save few pound and man hours in not engaging their technology experts to not unlocking phones.
The wording of the law is going to be the interesting part.
Can a Garda stop you in the street and demand to see your phones information. Should the Gardaí in a criminal investigation be able to access phones confiscated during an investigation be able to get phones unlocked either by the password from the owner or by the manufacturer.
A big difference. Having to open you phone on demand without a criminal investigation in place is one thing. Opening up phones in a criminal investigation another thing completely.
Takes longer as they have to send them away, use this to pressure youths to tell them passwords, which they do and risk interpretation of conversations/contacts.
All of our crooks and politicians have two phones ~ So why not you !
I don’t think there is any need to worry. I’m still waiting for guys running red lights on their phones and going 50kph over the speed limit to be observed by any guard lol.. But on the other hand if it can stop paedos and financial corruption, I’m all for it.
Then it would be an offence to forget your password should a gard ask for it.
Absolutely not unless you are a well known s’cumm bagg
If you have nothing to hide, then you should have no problem giving them your password.
have your say