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Professor Philip Nolan, Chair of the NPHET Irish Epidemiological Modelling Advisory Group (file photo) Sam Boal/RollingNews.ie

Chair of expert ventilation group says Nolan's comment on HEPA filters 'defies laws of physics'

Professor John Wenger said the filters could help schools with poor ventilation.

AN EXPERT HAS called on the Government to reconsider its stance on using HEPA filters to improve ventilation in some schools amid the ongoing risks posed by Covid-19.

Professor John Wenger, the chairperson of the Expert Group on the Role of Ventilation in Reducing Transmission of Covid-19, said not every classroom needs an air filter but many could indeed benefit from one.

The group was set up specifically to advise the Government on the role ventilation can play in combating the spread of Covid-19

Health Minister Stephen Donnelly has repeatedly said that open windows and C02 monitors provide “sufficient” ventilation in schools.

Speaking on RTÉ Prime Time last night, Donnelly confirmed that the Government is basing this stance on advice received from the HSE’s Antimicrobial Resistance and Infection Control Oversight Group (AMRIC).

In a report submitted to the Government in March, Wenger’s group recommended the use of HEPA (high efficiency particulate air) filters in poorly ventilated areas. However, AMRIC’s advice is at odds with this and has been favoured by the Government.

Speaking to The Journal today, Wenger said he was “surprised” that Donnelly was ignoring the advice given to it by the expert group specifically set up to examine ventilation.

“Why did he turn to this group? I know that the AMRIC group are leading the response to Covid, but we were called in specifically because we have expertise, multidisciplinary expertise, in the area of ventilation – understanding respiratory particles or aerosols, how to measure them, how to remove them, how buildings can be improved with ventilation and so on. So it is a bit unusual at this stage now to to the defer to some other experts, so I’m a bit surprised.”

When asked about the use of HEPA filters, Professor Philip Nolan today told a NPHET press briefing that the devices can play a role in “preventing transmission of the virus” in certain circumstances.

However, he said their use would not necessarily improve ventilation in settings such as schools.

Nolan, chair of NPHET’s Irish Epidemiological Modelling Advisory Group, said: “Their application is in small spaces where you have a known source. So I think the important thing to remember is that somebody who is infectious, there are lots of viral particles close to them, and very few viral particles at a distance from them – so ventilation helps disperse the ones that are both close and at a distance.

“If you’re going to use a HEPA filter, you really have to know the source of the infection and you have to put that HEPA filter beside the source. So they’re useful in hospitals, for instance, where there’s a known aerosol generating procedure or a known source of infection.

“They’re not useful in the far corner of a room with 20 or 30 people in them, where you don’t know if there is a source of infection where you have your HEPA filter.”

‘Defying physics’

Wenger disagrees with Nolan’s comments, saying they “defy the laws of physics”.

“The virus particles move around the room, right? So, if you have one infectious person in the room, those viral particles can move around. That’s a bit like saying if there’s a smoker in one corner of the room and if you’re in the other corner, you can’t smell it. Do you see what I’m saying? It goes against the laws of physics.

“The viral particles will move around the room. If you have very, very good ventilation you will dilute things. What we’re talking about is poorly ventilated spaces and in poorly ventilated spaces, the C02 is building up and so viral particles will build up.

“Any space that is demonstrated to be poorly ventilated would benefit from a HEPA filter and there are many classrooms where that’s been the case. It’s as simple as that.”

Wenger said his group did not call for the use of HEPA filters in all schools, instead noting that classrooms with poor ventilation could benefit from them.

hepa-filter-air-pollution-close-up A close-up of a HEPA air filter (file photo) Alamy Stock Photo Alamy Stock Photo

“People are talking about the layers of protection, and ventilation is a layer of protection. And so when the ventilation isn’t working well, this is where HEPA filters step in. I’m not saying that every classroom needs a HEPA filter. If the ventilation is working well, then you might get a marginal benefit from the HEPA filter.

“But when your ventilation isn’t working well, then that’s where it’s most beneficial. And that’s the bottom line for me and that’s what we recommended. It’s not a blanket yes or no, it is in certain cases they are going to be valuable.”

In a report submitted to the Government in March, the Expert Group on the Role of Ventilation in Reducing Transmission of Covid-19 stated that air filtration is “known to be effective in removing airborne particles, thereby providing a similar effect to outdoor air ventilation”.

“SARs-CoV-2 [Covid-19] is carried in respiratory droplets and aerosols which are typically 0.5-100 microns in diameter. Devices that use high efficiency particulate air (HEPA) filters or other high grades of filter will be most effective in removing respiratory partides in this size range.

“While there is no direct evidence that use of HEPA filters can reduce the transmission of SARS-CoV.2, it is widely accepted that they will be effective at removing a substantial proportion of the airborne virus.”

The report by the Wenger-led group goes on to note that the European Centre for Disease Control (ECDC), the US Center for Disease Control (CDC) and the World Health Organization (WHO) “all recognise that stand-alone air cleaning devices equipped with a HEPA filter may be useful in reducing airborne transmission in spaces with Insufficient ventilation”.

The group added that, in summary, HEPA filter devices “can be useful in reducing airborne transmission in spaces with insufficient ventilation”.

Guidance from the Department of Education

Wenger noted that, despite Donnelly’s comments, the Department of Education seemingly had taken the advice from Wenger’s group on board when devising guidelines for schools earlier this year.

Advice sent from the Department to schools in May notes the following: “Where the practical measures for the deployment of good ventilation practices have been undertaken (such as open windows and C02 monitors), and poor ventilation continues to exist in a particular room/area, air cleaners may be considered as an additional measure in conjunction with other methods of ventilation that are available.

“Room air cleaner selection is dependent on the particular setting and it is not possible to give a “one size fits all” solution, or a simple rule that everyone can follow. The Air Infiltration and Ventilation Centre notes that measures to reduce risk of exposure that causes Covid-19 from spreading indoors generally fall into three categories: source control, ventilation control and removal/control.

“Air cleaners can assist in removal control and provide an additional measure of precaution where poor ventilation exists. They should not be used to fully replace ventilation and should be used in conjunction with and to support other methods of ventilation that are available.”

Donnelly told Prime Time last night: “Advice from the experts at the moment is that C02 monitors, fresh air circulating with the windows [open] and so forth, that that is the way to go.”

The minister said that the Government is receiving its advice on the issue from both a subgroup within NPHET and a group within the HSE called AMRIC – the Antimicrobial Resistance and Infection Control Oversight Group.

Donnelly stated that AMRIC “was set up [to examine] antimicrobial resistance, but is now providing the recommendations on this”.

When presenter Sarah McInerney pointed out that the ECDC, CDC and WHO all recommend the use of HEPA filters in certain environments, Donnelly said: “Some [experts] are concluding one thing, some are concluding the other. Ultimately the advice to Government, which is what we have to go on, is that the ventilation measures in place in school – C02 monitors and the rest – is sufficient.”

Other developments

Cabinet yesterday decided that children aged nine and older will be asked to wear a face covering in certain public settings such as schools, shops and public transport, subject to a review in mid-February.

The measure came into effect today and applies to children in third class and above in schools.

Meanwhile, a People Before Profit Bill on workplace ventilation was passed by the Dáil today.

The Bill defines clean air as having fewer than 900 ppm (parts per million) of Co2 – and puts the onus on employers to achieve this through ventilation or air filtration.

Writing in The Journal yesterday, PBP TD Paul Murphy said: “The rationale for doing this is that almost every building where people gather aside from private homes is someone’s workplace.

“Many of the worst superspreading events have occurred in workplaces, with previous outbreaks in meat plants, restaurants, airplanes, schools, nursing homes and hospitals. It is through ensuring the right to clean air for workers that we can protect public health more broadly.”

With reporting by Rónán Duffy at the NPHET briefing

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67 Comments
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    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Pat Casey
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    Dec 1st 2021, 4:51 PM

    Because opening a window is cheaper than fitting a ventilation system.

    744
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    Mute Alan Wright
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:30 PM

    @Pat Casey: Yeah, and I’m sure Donnelly can set an example and sit in his office all day with the windows open. He’d be quick installing air-filters if that were the case.

    326
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    Mute Frank Cauldhame
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:31 PM

    @Pat Casey: Perhaps nobody in the government have any friends/relations/interests in any of the companies that manufacture HEPA filters hence their backs haven’t been scratched yet in order for their use to be of benefit to said government members.

    458
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    Mute John Hayes
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:40 PM

    @Frank Cauldhame: this Frank lad …. you can bet if the cronies were to benefit they’d be in schools everywhere.

    169
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    Mute potnoodle
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:44 PM

    @Frank Cauldhame: precisely

    124
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    Mute This time its personable!
    Favourite This time its personable!
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    Dec 1st 2021, 6:20 PM

    @Frank Cauldhame: yet Frank yet. I’d give them a week and HEPAFiltersNOW ltd will have been set up and secured it’s first multi millon euro order.

    74
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    Mute Frank Cauldhame
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    Dec 1st 2021, 10:17 PM

    @This time its personable!: Back in Lowry’s day you could buy a “shelf” company (already set up and incorporated) to carry out your shady deals. Came in handy for DOB quite a few times, fact.

    37
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    Mute James
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    Dec 1st 2021, 4:53 PM

    They all contradicting each other running around like head less chickens not having a clue what to do

    373
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    Mute Joe Johnson
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    Dec 1st 2021, 6:10 PM

    @James: Best option is tell all primary school children to go home until after Christmas and review second week in January when we know more about Omicron. Donnelly is out of his depth.

    144
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    Mute Declan
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    Dec 1st 2021, 6:56 PM

    @Joe Johnson: Not for most, hence why schools are open..

    20
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    Mute Markonline
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    Dec 1st 2021, 6:56 PM

    @Joe Johnson: not sure if you are allowed to leave primary aged children alone at home by themselves all day…tusla might have a say on it.

    20
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    Mute Joe Johnson
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    Dec 1st 2021, 7:21 PM

    @Markonline: Ah so school is a baby sitting service then.

    37
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    Mute Billy McNamara
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    Dec 1st 2021, 8:20 PM

    @James: Doctors differ and patients die.

    6
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    Mute Macca1986
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    Dec 1st 2021, 8:50 PM

    @Joe Johnson: exactly. kids should be given extended holidays

    11
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    Mute Ted Logan
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    Dec 1st 2021, 9:13 PM

    @Joe Johnson: unfortunately it is now as families now need two incomes to service an even modest mortgage or rent.

    10
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    Mute Declan Doherty
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:09 PM

    Same with Norma schools are safe Foley, the government always seem to have advice that suits their narrative. We can drop billions on a hospital in the wrong location but we can’t spend a few quid on antigen test and filters.

    305
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    Mute Harry Trafford
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    Dec 1st 2021, 10:37 PM

    @Declan Doherty: you realise that it’s not a matter of putting a filter in a room. The filters are expensive and need to be replaced regularly. Also you need a ventilation system to move the air through the filters. But I get your point on the rest.

    7
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    Mute Ernie Gallagher
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:11 PM

    Nolan’s a bigger chancer than Donnelly, and that’s some achievement.

    255
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    Mute Yvonne Lavelle
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:18 PM

    In the meantime teachers and kids sitting in freezing cold classrooms, if Co2 monitors goes red we have to leg it outdide in freezing cold and dont get me started on the masks today, they were on they were off, on their heads over their eyes…….could spend the day saying put your mask back on, sooner Christmas comes the better.

    196
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    Mute Rochelle
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:31 PM

    Between this and his snake oil comment I’m starting to think Nolan isn’t quite the disease expert we were led to believe.

    Looking at his career history it seems to have mostly been spent in academia than actually working in the field. Another spoofer in high positions of critical importance in this country.

    181
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    Mute Vonvonic
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:37 PM

    @Rochelle: He’s like that fella at the bar telling everyone: “I don’t care what no one says. There’s no car doing 60 miles to the gallon.”

    44
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    Mute This time its personable!
    Favourite This time its personable!
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    Dec 1st 2021, 6:24 PM

    @Vonvonic: jeepers I only said it the one time like, were you there or did you hear it from Seaneen, that boy has a big mouth. It was two years ago, let it go will you, for the love of god!

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    Mute Vonvonic
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    Dec 1st 2021, 7:25 PM

    @This time its personable!: The nose knows.

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    Mute
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    Dec 1st 2021, 4:57 PM

    Everyday is a case of. He said she said we said they said they all said.

    146
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    Mute Roy Dowling
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:09 PM

    Irish politics 101

    100
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    Mute Vonvonic
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:29 PM

    @Roy Dowling: All politics.

    23
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    Mute Thady Coughlan
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    Dec 1st 2021, 4:57 PM

    Too many “expert groups”all leading to total confusion.Opinions r like a———-s everyone has one

    136
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    Mute Roy Dowling
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:17 PM

    @Thady Coughlan: only one way to be sure if you are right Thady. We’ll need to put together an expert group to access the situation and see if to many expert groups cause confusion.

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    Mute J
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    Dec 1st 2021, 7:16 PM

    @Thady Coughlan: unfortunately opinions unlike their anatomical counter parts are not limited to one per mammal

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    Mute bob hope
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:27 PM

    If open windows and CO2 monitors are enough, then why the need for masks? NPHET contradicting themselves again and the government following along like a nodding donkey. Rather than spend money on upgrading the schools (let’s face it, who’s surprised when they wouldn’t even upgrade the healthcare system in, as they call it, a pandemic) they’d prefer to force mask wearing on children. All this when they’ve previously stated on numerous occasions that school settings are safe and children aren’t at risk!

    139
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    Mute Fergal McDonagh
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:11 PM

    Nolan doesn’t know if he’s going for a dump or a haircut.
    A constant stream of ràiméis is all he has contributed.

    121
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    Mute a
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:06 PM

    Snake Oil Nolan making an ar@@ of himself again.

    178
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    Mute Burt Macklin
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:48 PM

    Why weren’t they purchased with the original millions that went to schools?
    Oh sorry that went on dodgy sanitizer, signs and warning stickers. Millions of euro wasted!

    75
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    Mute Ian O Hara
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:38 PM

    Why are all the group’s called !! Expert Group’s!! None of them seem to be able to give a definitive answer to anything.

    70
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    Mute This time its personable!
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    Dec 1st 2021, 6:28 PM

    @Ian O Hara: I think it’s because they decide they are in an expert group it’s then they think they’re an expert on everything and not just specifically what the group was tasked with. They should stay the fluich in their own lane and not worry about other things, or is it that they don’t haven’t a clue about their own gig either so deflect somewhere else. If someone commented here with some rubbish these come out with they’d be torn to shreds yet all these think they’ve a platform to discuss it all, disappointed they haven’t got in on some ‘green’ initiatives to do with covid, hemp masks and the like!

    20
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    Mute Fiona Fitzgerald
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:02 PM

    At this point we could go back to hedge schools and donkey carts. And only teaching Latin and Greek to boys. The whole island could be a historical theme park.

    Joking aside, I hope schoolchildren are not prevented from wearing layers of clothing to stay warm.

    75
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    Mute Vonvonic
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:33 PM

    My kid’s school, with the windows open, in northerly or north easterly in Feb? It would be very good ventilation; something similar to out in the middle of the Atlantic.

    63
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    Mute Pat Redmond
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    Dec 4th 2021, 1:08 PM

    @Vonvonic: a small bit of all windows open is good, at home or in school

    1
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    Mute Willie Bill Bryan
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:47 PM

    Remember Nolan and co are educators , not good for our future graduates when Nolan can’t follow the science ?

    52
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    Mute Kp Gumbo
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:22 PM

    WoW, comments closed on the article on masks for kids. The journal are a disgrace lately !

    117
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    Mute Mike Dé Vere
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:22 PM

    Hepa filters are effectively used in some very large aeroplanes. Classrooms are much smaller.

    49
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    Mute William Tallon
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    Dec 1st 2021, 4:59 PM

    The AMRIC team seems equally staffed with experts in their field so do we need an impartial third party to decide who’s right? Crazy stuff…

    45
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    Mute Sean McCarthy
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:47 PM

    Can we take a step back from the edge here a minute before we spend tens/hundreds of million on equipment we most likely won’t need in 6 months or in fact won’t even be used at all. Remember all the money floundered on unusable PPE and ventilators. Can we even source these HEPA filters and can we even roll them out to every school room in time?? Sounds like a lot of people hurling from the ditches on a topic they don’t have a clue about.

    32
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    Mute bob hope
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:54 PM

    @Sean McCarthy: This was only meant to be a thing for a few weeks initially and he we are almost 2 years later still flapping about, so yes there’s time to do it. Also, if we’re to believe what we’re told, hard to say as it changes on an almost day to day basis, covid is here to stay and we have to learn to live with it, so this would be one of the things that would be needed in those types of settings for the long term.

    40
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    Mute Stephen Walsh
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:53 PM

    Heard one today where the teacher in a classroom had turned up the CO2 alarm to 2,000ppm, twice the safe limit. Why??? Because at 1,000ppm it was going off every few minutes!!!

    30
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    Mute Max Power
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    Dec 1st 2021, 6:48 PM

    Some friend of someone in government got the C02 monitors contact …35,000 supplied but 10,000 were faulty ones that had to be dumped .The schools only getting a fraction of what they needed and many schools still not got their quota … I’m sure he got paid for the faulty ones

    27
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    Mute Ronan Lawler
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:34 PM

    Stephen Donnelly, utterly useless, chocolate fireguard.

    68
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    Mute lelookcoco
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:36 PM

    It’s a bit unseemly for these professionals to be calling each other out in public. They need to work together and present a united front.

    21
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    Mute Alex Marquis
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:28 PM

    Wenger in!

    20
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    Mute Rostyballs78
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    Dec 1st 2021, 6:03 PM

    Yeh canny change the laws of physics Jim, yeh just don’t have the power. Great!!!! Now Star Trekking is stuck in my head.

    19
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    Mute Declan Fitzsimons
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    Dec 1st 2021, 5:33 PM

    HEPA filters can trap the particulate that contains the pathogen (eg. Covid-19) but, in order to inactivate it, UV-C light is required, as recommended by international expert groups such as CIBSE, ASHRAE, CDC, WHO etc
    HEPA filters on their own are an incomplete solution.

    14
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    Mute John Mc Auley
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    Dec 1st 2021, 9:10 PM

    This is the same crowd who insisted on opening the schools .
    But now the children are unsafe and superspreaders ……

    14
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    Mute Stephen Donaghy
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    Dec 1st 2021, 7:00 PM

    The government should just ignore the expert’s advice and go with the advice given in the journals comments section.

    13
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    Mute Mary O Dwyer
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    Dec 1st 2021, 6:31 PM

    We know we have one of the highest full vaccination levels in europe yet we also have very high infection rates and we do know that proper clean air ventilation systems that extract inside air and pull in outside clean air is just not part of our indooor spaces where we socialise , work or study . This has to be a driver .Warm countries would have ventilation systems as standard in most hospitality and indoor settings . Any bar, cafe ive been in even if asking for certs had windows/ doors closed in the majority .ventilation systems I only see in hotels . March is 9 months back for that focus on ventilation importance not to be prioritised and if needed to be subsidised for hospitality . Open windows tough on kids in winter but if no ventilation system what do they do . Clean air priority

    12
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    Mute Anne C.
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    Dec 1st 2021, 7:18 PM

    Sounds to me like somebody’s nose is out of joint. I can’t see why the Hse or Government are expected to take every piece of advice they get from experts! Daily on Radio/Tv/ Print media we have Eminent Highly Qualified Medical Personel who disagree on aspects of advice from NEPHD!! Sometimes it’s like “Too Many Chiefs & Not enough Indians ” !

    9
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    Mute John Vectravi
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    Dec 1st 2021, 6:25 PM

    UV is your only man.

    8
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    Mute John Mc Auley
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    Dec 1st 2021, 9:12 PM

    If hepa filters were available in ALDI
    or LIDL ????????

    5
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    Mute ⚡ Seánie ⚡
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    Dec 1st 2021, 7:00 PM

    What school has a ventilation system suitable to filter down to HEPA filter size?!?

    5
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    Mute Anarch Eco
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    Dec 2nd 2021, 1:14 AM

    @⚡ Seánie ⚡: Note to self-dont lick the filters
    A school for ants?

    1
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    Mute Giles Wolohan
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    Dec 1st 2021, 7:31 PM

    S donnelly is lacking in brain power why he has the job is beyond me

    13
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    Mute David Kearney
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    Dec 2nd 2021, 12:43 AM

    So the people who sell filters and air flow systems are recommending the gov buys filters and air flow systems .. classic

    3
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    Mute ChadChaderson
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    Dec 1st 2021, 8:43 PM

    If these idi_ts were in charge of the trenches they’d send everyone over on day one.

    8
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    Mute Dermot Moran
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    Dec 1st 2021, 10:03 PM

    Nolan and Donnelly. Two of the most useless people in positions of power. What did we do to deserve this pair?

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    Mute Declan Gilsenan
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    Dec 5th 2021, 9:28 AM

    @Dermot Moran: Leo the leak was in power at the beginning of the pandemic and appointed Holohan to command the response. Holohan set up NPHET and appointed his fellow desk docs to most of the positions with few scientific docs, he dismissed the most effective response ie universal mask wearing on the spurious ground that it would frighten autistics.
    Things have improved somewhat with the appointment of more competent sub commitees.
    The disease is spread by inhaling or getting the exhalations of an infected person in the eyes.
    Hand washing or surface cleaning is therefore a waste of time and money.
    HEPA filters wouldn’t work in large spaces like classrooms.

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    Mute Charles Barker
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    Dec 2nd 2021, 4:56 PM

    Prof Nolan should now do the honourable thing after his two gaffes and resign from NPHET’s modelling advisory group.

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    Mute Dave Hammond
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    Dec 1st 2021, 10:58 PM

    Listen to the experts? …… Not so easy in Ireland these days apprently

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    Mute Anarch Eco
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    Dec 2nd 2021, 1:12 AM

    Note to self-dont lick the filters

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