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VAPE SELLERS HAVE told an Oireachtas Committee that there are no “foolproof” age verification systems for online e-cigarettes websites.
The Oireachtas Health Committee today heard submissions from three members of the Irish Vape Vendors Association (IVVA) as politicians continued scrutiny of the general scheme of the Public Health (Tobacco and Nicotine Inhaling Products) Bill.
The proposed legislation will prohibit the sale of vapes and tobacco- and nicotine-inhaling products to persons under the age of 18. It will also make it illegal for under-18s to sell such products.
A number of TDs at the committee expressed concern about rising rates of vaping among teenagers and cited the flavouring of e-cigarettes as a “seductive” reason why this may be the case.
Each of the three members of the IVVA are involved in a vaping business and argued that flavours should be retained as people seeking to give up smoking using e-cigarettes “want to move away from the flavour of tobacco”.
Social Democrats TD Róisín Shortall asked the IVVA about a number of vape flavours that she said would be “particularly attractive to under 18s”.
Addressing the committee, Shortall named a number of the favours listed on their websites including “Dr Frost Lemonade Fizz”, “Apple Berry Crumble” and “Purple Slush”.
“Surely there isn’t a demand for adults from those for those flavors, they very much sound like flavours that are designed to appeal to children,” she said.
Shortall also said that some products are sold with “cartoon-like packaging” such as “Vampire vape”.
In response, Joanna O’Connell of Vapourpal said their website “only stocks flavours that our adult customers request”.
“They’re not attracted by the packaging, they are attracted by the flavour. That specific flavour that you’re speaking of that’s on our website is one of the most popular fruit flavoured e-liquids among adults,” she said.
O’Connell agreed that the packaging was “cartoon-like” and added that they have “been onto the manufacturer regarding that”.
Answering about the “Dr Frost Lemonade Fizz” product, Connolly said that he sells the product “because there’s a demand for it”
“I will accept that the packaging on that product to me should be should be better and should be more more more responsible,” he said. adding that he would like to “sit down with legislators” about how best to do that.
Shortall also sought clarity from the IVVA on online age verification for buying e-cigarette products online.
Declan Connolly of ezSmoke.ie acknowledged that more work was needed on age verification.
“I still don’t have a foolproof age verification system on the website, I’ll put my hands up and accept that,” he said.
Alex Pescar of Ecricette also acknowledged in relation to age verification that “it’s not a perfect system”.
He claimed that it is possible to “double-check” and call up a person if he has suspicions a customer may be under 18.
Pescar said this was “not a routine” and pushed by Shortall he said that this happened “a couple of times” last year.
‘Unintended consequences’
The general use of e-cigarettes was also debated during the committee, with the IVVA members arguing that vaping “has an important role to play” in making Ireland tobacco free by giving smokers an alternative.
“I would totally accept that vaping isn’t a panacea and that on it’s own it isn’t going to help us reach a tobacco-free Ireland,” Connolly said.
But I do certainly believe that vaping has a very important role to play. Nothing is better than fresh air, no one would argue with that but we always need to be, and legislators need to be, very, very careful that anytime you’re bringing in legislation that’s going to affect vaping, that you have to compare it with the much, much more deadly alternative product and is that is smoking.
Fine Gael’s Colm Burke TD raised research from The Irish Heart Foundation which pointed to an increase in both vaping and smoking rates among teenagers and said that teenagers who vaped were 50% more likely to try smoking.
“All I’m saying is that I fully accept and I think everyone here accepts that vaping has helped people to move away from cigarettes but we also need to make sure that there’s adequate regulation because there are downsides to e-cigarettes as well,” he said.
Sinn Féin’s David Cullinane TD pointed to research by the European Commission’s Scientific Committee on Health which suggested there was “moderate evidence that e-cigarettes are a gateway to smoking for young people”.
Fianna Fáil’s John Lahart said he was “open-minded” about the use of vaping as a way out for smokers, but he noted that British American Tobacco has started to produce vaping products in recent years “and their profits are soaring”.
“The association with the tobacco industry and these products doesn’t sit well with me,” he said.
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Just ban it altogether – it’s fairly clear that the lobbyists are a bunch of cowboys and the last thing the world needs is another legal nicotine delivery system.
@Lee King Buckett: would you rsther let your kid smoke tobacco or vape flavoured liquid, Lee?
@Lee King Buckett: Cigarettes come in a single flavour. Vaping can go one better as a flavourless liquid. As usual, the government is 10 years behind the curve when it’s already too late to contain the spread of vaping to children. They should also force all vaping liquids down to a lower range of maximum strengths so they function better as a quitting aid for existing smokers.
@John Johnes: Neither John, as far as I’m aware, it’s not a binary choice.
Plus, if you read the article you’ll see that kids who start vaping are more likely to move on to cigarettes.
@Lee King Buckett: kids who experiment will always do so. No causal effect from vaping to smoking. Just more likely that kids who will smoke will experiment with vaping.
@Lee King Buckett: that’s right ban everything, over charge for everything, tax us to the hilt, any other liberties you would like to give away.?
@John Johnes: il be honest I think both are equally bad. I just found out that my daughter vapes. She’s only 14. It’s definitely the sweeter labelled vape juice that catches her attention.
@Bala mc blaha: You can’t be overcharged if it’s banned.
@Lee King Buckett: Ridiculous. It’s the most effective quit smoking aid available. Helping millions including myself. Already heavily regulated in Europe, unlike the USA. That’s where you’ll find your anti vaping cowboys like Bloomberg.
@gordon o loughlin: that’s very unusual. I live near a boys school and see the kids in the lane at break, smoking not vaping.
@Lee King Buckett: i am very sceptical of the info that is present here Lee.
Just logically thibking – as you probably know , the taste of the cigarettes are disgusting for a nonsmoker.
Now imagine kids that are vaping tasty liquids trying a cigarette.
I am very doubtful of kids dropping tasty smoke for a cigarette.
However what i have no doubts about is that tobacco industry is losing shit loads of revenue because of the people hopping on to the liquid. And governments.
@gordon o loughlin: just to reassure you also, both are certainly not “equally bad”. Vaping is far safer than smoking. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/e-cigarettes-around-95-less-harmful-than-tobacco-estimates-landmark-review
@John Johnes: They could be encouraged to smoke neither… Just saying….
@Lee King Buckett: Yeah, and hand the market over to criminals. Prohibition doest work. We tried it before and it failed miserably.
@gordon o loughlin: Definatly not poor parenting anyway. It must be that darn juice I tells ya….
@Brian Hackett: Brian totally agree
@Pádraic Brady: What country has a government which was actually on the curve? I won’t stretch things by asking what country was ahead of the curve.
@Noel_Random: ya either way it’s not good whether it’s vaping or smoking. But the fruity flavors on vape juices should be illegal imo. Kinda like cigarette packs with nasty pics and warnings etc.
@Noel_Random: thanks for the info.
@Black Iron Tarkus: haha true story. Its just my daughter doesn’t live with me full time and her mam won’t talk to me but that’s a whole separate issue. Cheers for the vote of confidence though lol. Oh actually maybe it’s the poor spelling.. Yup it DEFINATLY is
Politicians are clueless about vaping. Flavours are crucial for smokers quitting tobacco. I quit a 30 year heavy smoking habit thanks to vaping. Now vape fruit flavour like apple and watermelon. Aged 57. The benefits of quitting tobacco are incredible. Could breath better and skin improved within weeks. My dentist also said my gums have never been healthier. This worrying about the kids is unfounded. The vast majority of vapers are adults and, according to the latest Healthy Ireland survey, it’s the most successful quit method. Far more effective than nicotine gums and patches and well ahead of the expensive tax funded HSE Quit site. Politicians need to look to the UK for proper evidence and not the click bait nonsense coming from the USA where misinformation is rife.
@Noel_Random: You’re extrapolating your experience to everyone.
I quit after 26 years with no vaping so no, flavours are not ‘crucial’ at all.
And nicotine is still a poison
@Lee King Buckett: well done you. Only a tiny minority manage to quit cold Turkey. Flavour is critical in switching to vaping from smoking tobacco. Nicotine is no more a poison than caffeine is. The dose makes the poison.
@Lee King Buckett: “I quit after 26 years with no vaping so no, flavours are not ‘crucial’ at all.”
What was that about extrapolating personal experience?
We’re all the center of our own little world it would seem.
@Noel_Random: critical?
This a rather big claim.
Got any peer reviewed studies to support this claim with verified data?
We know company’s did flavours to attract new users, they did this with cigs and now they are doing it with vaping. This isn’t about quitting for them. Its about getting new users hooked.
@Noel_Random: A tiny minority? Note sure where you’re getting your information Noel. Nicotine is a highly toxic chemical that’s used as a pesticide and weedkiller – it’s far more toxic and dangerous than caffeine. The truth is we have no idea of the long term effects of vaping. Are there less carcinogenics than in cigarette smoking? Yes. But the bottom line is you’re still imbibing a poison.
@Noel_Random: You might want to disclose your links to the vape industry when you make such posts. You clearly have vested interests as confirmed by your own twitter profile.
You are like a cigarette company worker defending cigarettes
@Noel_Random: I also quit a 30yr smoking habit with vaping overnight. Started with high nicotine levels and worked down to the lowest. The difference is like night and day in terms of my lungs, my cardiovascular capacity, taste buds, etc. I had tried everything and couldn’t stop smoking. People talking alot of nonsense here about something they know nothing about. The science on vaping vs smoking is extremely encouraging. If they want to regulate and/or ban something truly damaging to individuals and society, they should start with alcohol. Then see how the commenters here like it!
@Stephen Rogan: Did you not vape during daylight?
@Stephen Rogan: that’s great Stephen. So much ignorance around the issue now though that it’s actually keeping smokers from quitting as they think, like some posters here, that it’s a bad as smoking. So much misinformation coming from the USA. Hope Irish authorities see through it and focus on the science.
has nanny state nothing better to be concerned about. . .
@Bala mc blaha: you are right, if people want to build their homes with asbestos we should let them. The government are awful because they are trying to stop people killing themselves.
This vaping stuff is no different and should be banned, the sheer amount of chemicals in this stuff is doing nobody any good.
@Barry Somers: it’s a life saver for millions of former smokers globally. Sheer amount of chemicals? Lol. Check out what’s in an actually cigarette and what happens when it’s lit. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/e-cigarettes-around-95-less-harmful-than-tobacco-estimates-landmark-review
@Barry Somers: Its now of your business what I decide to consume, Barry. Kepp your moralising to yourself. Just because you dont like it you actually belive no one should be allowed. Unreal.
@Black Iron Tarkus: it is actually, its everyone’s when that consumption costs the tax payer money due to increase health costs.
@Barry Somers: except vaping is bringing smoking rates down.
ah so they’re coming after vaping now that the tax on tobacco income is starting to drop
@Sean Stevenson: the tax was never a benefit to this country.
Smoking related health issues cost the HSE more then the tax take was.
@Barry Somers: That’s not true. Not to mention the fact that some smokers die younger, and therefore don’t need their pension paid in subsequent decades. This isn’t apparently about money at all, but a strangely Puritan reaction against people who simply happen to have a sweet tooth. A lot of us outgrow that; some don’t and why shouldn’t they enjoy it? Next some miserable group will be banning aftershave because they personally can’t enjoy any.
Smoked tobacco products for many years and developed health problems. Switched from tobacco to vape. Took a bit of time then I started experimenting with flavours and now I prefer vaping flavours more than the nicotine content.
Here in Holland all flavours except ‘tobacco’ are likely to be banned soon, so I’ve simply tried a couple well before that legislation comes into effect (unclear precisely when) and settled on one that’s somewhat sweeter than ‘regular’.
I don’t mind such a law, even if I did use to mix some ‘honey’ flavour into my liquid. It’s just a matter of seeing your vaping for what it is: a safer way to satisfy one’s nicotine addiction.
@Mick Tobin: I can’t understand the logic of only allowing tobacco flavour. You’d almost think they were trying to protect the tobacco cigarette industry?! The last thing I wanted to vape after quitting cigarettes was a tobacco flavour that reminded me of the real thing. Can’t stand the smell of smoke now either.
@Noel_Random: Thing is Noel, I don’t even really recognise it as ‘tobacco’. I have the battery set to lowest, and the nicotine level isn’t too high either. A while ago I took a drag from a cig & it made me completely dizzy. As for that it’s disgusting, yes absolutely.
Some people seem to take pride in steam train antics with their massive plumes, and in some shops it’s hard to breathe, and I don’t get why people want that.
@Mick Tobin: oh those annoying cloud chasers! Childish behavior and feeds the anti vape lobbyists.
I have no links at all to companies that sell vaping products. But I have seen how popular comics and cartoon books are to collectors. Surprised at a public representative deciding to monitor public tastes and trends as though it were any business of the Dáil to set rules for adult consumption. Is it really so impossible to imagine that there are other people in the world with different tastes from yourself?
Haaaaaa
Nanny state wins again.
You’d think they would actually ban cigarettes first but since that would lead to a loss of revenue they won’t.
Ah sure why not ban alcohol, sweets, fast food, cars that go over 120kph, there all dangerous.
have your say