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File photo Mark Stedman/Photocall Ireland

Column The Leaving Cert ‘points race’ is bad – but it’s better than alternatives

‘Radical’ new proposals for interviews are really a return to the past, writes Joanna Tuffy TD. Instead, we need a much wider debate on third level education.

THE PRESIDENTS OF the universities this week launched a document about the points system. They timed their submission to coincide with the CAO publication of this year’s points, and the news that points went up significantly for many courses. The previous day, Trinity College Dublin had announced that it would be introducing a pilot scheme in 2014 for its law course that would involve alternative methods of selection to the CAO points system.

The presidents’ document is short on detail but contains one striking proposal – namely that Leaving Certificate subjects would be ranked according to difficulty.

To rank Leaving Certificate subjects according to difficulty will be a very difficult and hugely controversial task. The ranking of subjects would still involve a points system based on Leaving Certificate results and it won’t eradicate the phenomenon of high points for certain courses.

If the issue is that the points are too high for certain university courses, it should be remembered that points for courses offered through the CAO go up and down in direct correlation to the number of places on a college course and the numbers of students applying for that course. Therefore there is a straightforward way to reduce the points for college courses and that is to make more places available for those courses.

This self-evident fact seems to be ignored by many of those that contribute to the debate on the points system, including those that should know better. For example it is the university heads who determine how many places are offered by the CAO on the courses in their universities and yet some university heads approach the debate on the points system as if they are innocent actors in the process.

There are plenty of courses with high points on which it would be straightforward enough for the colleges to increase the number of places available, and hence reduce the points. But in reality it suits universities to make some of their courses exclusive and prestigious by restricting the number of places on those courses to an unnecessary degree.

‘Radical and groundbreaking’

In the case of the proposed pilot scheme that was announced by TCD’s Provost, the publicity was vague on detail, although newspaper reports mentioned that it would involve selecting students based on student interviews, personal statements and teacher references. Reports referred to the proposal for the TCD pilot scheme as radical and groundbreaking, seemingly forgetting that TCD used to hold interviews for courses many years ago. They were done away with because they were considered a flawed method of selecting students.

This is the crux of the problem with the TCD proposal. What about the personal biases and flawed assumptions that might creep into the adjudication of these interviews, statements and references? Could the scheme signal a return to the old school tie? The suggestion by the dean of undergraduate studies, Dr Patrick Geoghegan, that a student from a school in one geographical area might get a leg up because they were in a ‘disadvantaged’ school assumes, wrongly, that children from poorer socio-economic backgrounds only attend schools that have been labelled disadvantaged.

Questions would be bound to be raised if under this pilot scheme the child of a college lecturer got a place based on a good interview ahead of a child with a better Leaving Cert but no such connections. What if a teacher giving a reference knew the head of the relevant department personally? And the suggestion that a student’s extra-curricular activity could be taken into account could turn out to be discriminatory in practice.

If there is to be any semblance of fairness and impartiality in the pilot scheme proposed by TCD, there will have to be a scoring system of some kind for student interviews, personal statements and teacher references – and this just brings us back to the original problem. Unless you score highly enough in your interview, your personal statements and your Leaving Certificate, you won’t achieve a place on the course. It is a points system under another guise, but a less foolproof one than the one we have already.

The wrong question

TCD are also possibly answering the wrong question with their focus on law for their pilot scheme. After all while the TCD law course may be hard to get into, there are so many different courses in law, so many different ways to study it and so many routes into the legal profession that there are already many other options for students that wish to study law but don’t make the grade for TCD. Maybe the question that TCD should be trying to answer is: Why is there less demand for other courses that, as a country, we need more graduates from?

There is another aspect of the debate missing from the university heads’ statements to date. Almost half of undergraduates are studying at Institutes of Technology. This debate should be about more than access to university. It should be about access to third-level education and also the need to retain students within the education system. Third-level education should not be a one-off chance for those that have just completed the Leaving Certificate.

While it is true that the third-level sector has introduced more flexibility over the years, much more can be done – especially by the universities – to deliver a more flexible model of education that would in turn ease the pressures on Leaving Certificate students. This would include more routes into professions such as medicine, more fluidity between courses, colleges and full-time and part time study, and more opportunities to study other than the full time nine-to-five on-campus model of third level education that still, despite some changes, predominates in our third level sector.

A more flexible model of education would be more inclusive and could also be used to address the high numbers of third level students that drop out of college, and the difficulties colleges often face in filling all of the places in some of their courses that despite being less popular offer good prospects for employment on graduation.

This debate should not be the preserve of academics; the wider public should be involved. And it should not just focus on the points system which has been found in previous studies to be the fairest and to be considered trustworthy by the public. The points system is very like how Churchill described democracy – it isn’t perfect, but it is better than all the other systems that have been tried.

Joanna Tuffy is a Labour TD for Dublin Mid West.

Read more from Joanna Tuffy on TheJournal.ie>

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    Mute pat byrne
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    Jan 6th 2013, 11:32 AM

    My wife is deaf and to see our 2 sons aged 3.5 and 22 months using sign to communicate with their mother is nothing short of amazing .my wife also has a sister and brother who are also deaf and a sister who is hearing and watching them in flow of conversation is unbelievable . ISL is a fantastic language and I consider it the most important language I have as without it I would not the woman I married in my life today .

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    Mute Helena Hasler
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    Jan 6th 2013, 9:14 AM

    To learn even basic ISL is so expensive, I know a group of friends who wanted to learn. I did basic level with seehear expressed interest in continuing to the next level but never heard back from them. I find it sad the excitement some deaf people express when I use even my basic ISL to help communicate its not that hard to learn or use. I know in transition year we did it and loved it and I could secretly communicate with my friends across the room, bus and in later years a pub/nightclub.

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    Mute Cormac Ó Lóinín
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    Jan 6th 2013, 10:07 AM

    Helena, do you mean DeafHear? There are other places you could learn. Try the Irish Deaf Society.

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    Mute Eoghan MacLochlainn
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    Jan 6th 2013, 10:22 AM

    ISL should be recognised as an official language and the Deaf community deserves this…..

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    Mute Jed I. Knight
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    Jan 6th 2013, 10:25 AM

    I’ve worked with a deaf colleague and have, over many years, managed to pick up some sign language from what he’s shown me. I won’t say I’m fluent but we can communicate perfectly well and it has given me an insight to his world, noises we take for granted every day he obviously can’t hear. I’ve seen him stepping out onto a road when there was, to our ears, an obviously noisy car coming, I’ve heard him paged several times and while I doubt this was malicious, people genuinely forget. It can be extremely frustrating.

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    Mute unadoran
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    Jan 6th 2013, 10:31 AM

    Maybe the pager also had vibration

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    Mute Sandra Turner
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    Jan 6th 2013, 11:10 AM

    Maybe paged as in bing bong bing bong can Joe come to reception, Joe to reception please.

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    Mute Jed I. Knight
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    Jan 6th 2013, 1:51 PM

    I’m afraid it was paged as in Sandra’s version, which was why it was pointless but I don’t believe it was anyone being malicious but rather they simply forgot. He saw the funny side when told about it so, in a way, people genuinely saw past his deafness.

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    Mute thatsit
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    Jan 6th 2013, 9:09 AM

    They just want to be heard

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    Mute Dec Rowe
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    Jan 6th 2013, 4:48 PM

    That’s terrible! Im a bad person! Please delete journal!

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    Mute Aideen Beausang
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    Jan 6th 2013, 9:10 AM

    The sign language pic shown at the to of the article is clearly not ISL as only one hand its used for the alphabet in ISL. More than likely the UK Version which is totally different.

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    Mute vv7k7Z3c
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    Jan 6th 2013, 9:18 AM

    Hi Aideen,

    It’s very hard to find images of ISL (which is possibly indicative of the larger issue) so hopefully you’ll excuse the use of a generic stock photo of sign language.

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    Mute Aideen Beausang
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    Jan 6th 2013, 9:23 AM

    Yes Michelle you’re probably right that’s its an indication of the issues The Deaf Community have here in Ireland

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    Mute Pól Mac Bhaildrin
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    Jan 6th 2013, 9:25 AM

    Yeah agree with you

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    Mute Alvean Jones
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    Jan 6th 2013, 11:28 AM

    The sign language pic… it’s a shame that the Journal did not think to select one of the letters in the American Sign Language Alphabet that is also used in the Irish Sign Language alphabet. (only 8 letters differ between the Irish and American sign language alphabets.)

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    Mute Kate Ferguson
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    Jan 6th 2013, 6:29 PM

    I recently designed an interactive website to learn basic ISL online for free. It can be found at http://www.learnirishsignlanguage.ie . The idea of the site was to tackle the problem this article presents and show how new media can offer more accessible means of learning this language. The site covers The Alphabet, Numbers, Days of the Week, Months, Colours, Greetings, School, Hobbies, Emotions, Prepositions, Transport, The House, and Weather. Please Explore, Share with friends and enjoy! To avail of all the site offers Chrome is a preferable browser but learning videos are available on all browsers :)

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    Mute Craig Dwyer
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    Jan 6th 2013, 6:57 PM

    Great resource Kate. :)

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    Mute Dec Rowe
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    Jan 6th 2013, 7:07 PM

    Can you put all that into an app for iPhone or Android?

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    Mute Kate Ferguson
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    Jan 6th 2013, 7:18 PM

    Thanks craig :). The site is created in HTML5 therefore the learning videos can be viewed on iPhones, iPads and android devices. It is not yet an actual mobile app though. I hope to develop a phone app for it in the future. This at least for the moment eliminates the problems of Flash. :)

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    Mute Dec Rowe
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    Jan 6th 2013, 8:13 PM

    It’s really good, I learned the ISL alphabet earlier, took me about half an hour! I’m going to keep practicing to get the speed up! Can’t believe how easy it is to memorise! Such a great thing to know! Will definitely pass whatever I learn on to my kids!

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    Mute tomnewnewman.org
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    Jan 6th 2013, 8:52 AM

    The App shown on Late Late show for signing was amazing

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    Mute Michelle Goodwin
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    Jan 6th 2013, 1:16 PM

    Michelle on Hands On was great! Hope you all saw it as we have very little voice in the media and the hearing world. We have huge problems in terms of equality which needs to be addressed badly which people are not aware about e.g a natural right to use ISL in education. This is just one example of many! Way too many problems and lack of awareness in this country.

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    Mute vv7k7Z3c
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    Jan 6th 2013, 1:40 PM

    Thanks a lot Michelle, I’m glad you liked it.

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    Mute Susan Whelan
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    Jan 6th 2013, 11:15 AM

    If anyone is looking for ISL Fetac accredited classes, we have them at the Irish Deaf Society http://www.deaf.ie

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    Mute Chrissy Buckley
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    Jan 6th 2013, 10:33 AM

    I personally as a mother would love to see sign language being thought in all schools as a important recognised language, I would love to learn it myself

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    Mute DB
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    Jan 6th 2013, 9:17 AM

    Wow didnt realise 90k with hearing difficulties in Ireland that is alot of people.

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    Mute Laura Doris
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    Jan 6th 2013, 11:12 AM

    @ Chrissy Buckley
    I understand that some school does have ISL programme but it is not recognised by the dept of education. Would be nice if they did.

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    Mute Dec Rowe
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    Jan 6th 2013, 5:32 PM

    Just spent the last half hour learning the alphabet in sign! Purely out of guilt!

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    Mute Laura Doris
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    Jan 6th 2013, 2:32 PM

    Well done Michelle you did brilliantly, hope you carry this experience forward.

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    Mute vv7k7Z3c
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    Jan 6th 2013, 2:45 PM

    Thanks a lot Laura!

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    Mute Pól Mac Bhaildrin
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    Jan 6th 2013, 9:19 AM

    5,000 ISL in Ireland ! Maybe some Irish deaf who emigrated it new life in England,Australia and USA it could more 10,000 ISL

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    Mute Peter O Foyle
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    Jan 6th 2013, 10:21 AM

    You never hear them give out

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    Mute Anita Cunneen
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    Jan 6th 2013, 9:23 PM

    Firstly, congratulations to you Michelle and The Journal for raising this issue and taking part in Hands On, well done. Yes, the pic is not ISL, tip for the future, you could take a photo of the hand of a person that uses ISL. The important thing here is ISL and Deaf awareness. Maybe our government will start listening and give ISL the recognition it rightly deserves.

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    Mute Shane Hamilton
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    Jan 6th 2013, 5:49 PM

    Michelle, well done on Hands on and for addressing the issue. It was indeed an enjoyable clip to watch and hope to have our silent voices heard more often. Well done :-)

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    Mute FlopFlipU
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    Jan 6th 2013, 10:15 AM

    What’ s isl

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    Mute Alvean Jones
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    Jan 6th 2013, 10:23 AM

    FlopFlipU,

    ISL = Irish Sign Language, the sign language used by Deaf people in Ireland who sign. No, it does not have any connection with spoken Irish.

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    Mute Brian Crean
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    Jan 14th 2013, 4:25 PM

    Hi Michelle, I knopw it being a while however better late than never. I wana say many thanks for doing an article on the Hands on Program. We, Deaf people need allies like you to get the message across to the greater population. So in that way, it would produce positive perspectives on who we are as we are often underestimated despite our poor educational attainment but this does not inhibit our ways of thinking and contribution thanks to our beautiful language, ISL – Irish Sign Language

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    Mute Pádraig McCann
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    Jan 6th 2013, 1:37 PM

    Good job Michelle

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    Mute vv7k7Z3c
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    Jan 6th 2013, 1:40 PM

    Thanks Pádraig!

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    Mute Daniel Brady
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    Jan 6th 2013, 11:40 AM

    When I was in first year in college I wanted to take ISL instead of a European one, and got a large group who wanted the same. At our induction there was a man signing so I though it might be easy enough to organise but no joy, unfortunately.

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    Mute Helena Saunders
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    Mar 31st 2015, 9:33 PM

    Hi Michelle
    Contact me to meet my ISL learners ASAP.

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    Mute Dolphins
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    Mar 31st 2015, 5:25 PM

    People Power v Kenny’s Muppets
    Let’s call a referendum whether the Rock and Rolling Itish Sign Language be recognised in this beautiful Emerald Isle as our third official language

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