@Honeybadger197: Selling people’s homes to vulture funds who want a fast turnaround on that investment or selling those properties unoccupied!
Vulture funds are also unregulated &using charitable status to pay little or no tax!It’s the people, families&children NOT the Government that are paying dearly in many ways for banking debt converted to sovereign debt!

@Honeybadger197: The banks did fail completely apart from boi and ulster which was part of rbos….where the government screwed up was by bailing out unsecured bond holders via the ECB gun to their heads.

@Honeybadger197: the gov should have been regulating the banks in the first place.

@Honeybadger197: Families are more important than a quick buck.

@Niall Quinlan: does that include the families who choose to stop paying mortgages despite being able to pay? Free sh*t for everyone……

@Dan: I can’t believe how many people still haven’t muted honeybadger! The Journal is a much better experience without his inane comments. Imagine if he was the only one that read them – bless.

@Elizabeth Gregory: why would I mute him? He’s making valid points and you chose to belittle rather than debate

@Nuala Mc Namara: it’s not your home until you pay for it

@Michael Powell: ah Michael now come on….

@Ohhh_reeally: It’s your home while you live in it!

@Honeybadger197: No, but FG failed to allow the citizens of Ireland to be offered any kind of Write Down, duly afforded to foreign vulture funds, and, therein lies the failure of FG.

@Nuala Mc Namara: Nuala, great points. FG could have found a middle way so that the people and State could have beneffited in a responsible way but failed to do so. I wholly object to the notion that it was Administratively impossible to offer such discounts as enjoyed by foreign funds to individual Irish people. This makes no sense logically whatsoever.

@Michael Powell: Honeybadger making valid points? You’ve got to be joking. How many is ‘many’ percentage wise who have purposefully not paid their mortgage?

For crying out loud we’re talking here about throwing vulnerable families to the vultures. Its a totally shameful act should it go ahead.

If you’re not in arrears and pay your mortgage on time does it make a difference if it’s a vulture fund or a regular bank?

@KingBen: A very very small percentage, imagine who would want their family living under the stress of not paying the mortgage. With all the financial clout the the bailed out Banks and the Vultures have, and the pressure they could bring on an individual family, who in their right mind would deliberately choose such a fight.

@Dan:
Lies, lies and manufactured lies.
Spin, spin and white lies.
Official Ireland closes it’s eyes
And Ireland’s problem there LIES.

@Jointheclubtoo: how many is a small percentage and what percentage makes it ok to default purposefully?

@Nuala Mc Namara: there’s nothing for anyone to worry about if they’ve been paying their mortgage!!

@Willy Malone: unless you find a hidden clause in some law it’s not illegal, that’s the whole point.

“TheJournal.ie asked Permanent TSB’s spokesperson whether the bank could provide a further breakdown on how many customers had not engaged in over seven years. They said that no further information was available this evening.”

Read the fine print people. PTSB did not give a breakdown because they can’t because they are too lazy to do their own leg work…and they want quick cash.

PTSB also uses words like “many” “typical” and “some” to describe the loans they want to sell off to the VF’s. These words are red flags.

What they are doing is including mortgages that homeowners have been partially paying every month in their agreement with PTSB, in the sell off. Even though homeowners are paying…PTSB is still classifying them as in arrears…even though they [PTSB]are out no money because they are still getting their interest. And unless there is a write down….PTSB recapitalises the arrears.

Does everyone see what is happening…even if you think you have negotiated a payment with your bank…and you are paying without fail, the bank will still sell your mortgage because technically…it is considered underperforming.

In a nutshell….PTSB are saying to their mortgage holders…F**k Y**.

Why does everyone think banks all over the country have closed, and banking was centralised to Dublin? So they could do s**t like this.

Why do you think they took the ability to properly and fairly negotiate with customers out of the hands of the local branches?

So they could turn everyone into a nameless faceless acct numbers, refuse to talk to you, bully you, threaten you, claim they negotiated when they didn’t…and then take your s**t.

@Patty Cullinane: Debt negotiations were never done in laval branches, all banks have an arrears department at head office that handed that stuff.

@Neal Ireland Hello.: what you said is only partially true. Before what are now the good ol’ days for the banks of centralisation…you could go into your local branch and get help and assistance from your local branch manager in these matters,

They made have had arrears depts….but your local branch manager assisted their customers along the way….and could even handle mortgage arrear issues with their customers.

Now…they can’t do anything.

The bank managers hands are now completely tied. They have no power at all to asssist the customer in mortgage matters. They have little power now…full stop. Everything….has to go thru Dublin.

And I am only talking about the local branches that still exist. Look around the country at all the places where there are no more local bank branches.
This was no accident. Now who do those customers deal with? I will tell you….some poor kid on minimum wage at a call centre who has no idea about how to assist you with your mortgage queries. And who is told that he is to tell you that there is no one else you can’t speak to.

Typo at end of last sentence

Should read “there is no one else you can speak to”

@Dan: It’s a lie, they finance minister controls 75% of the bank shares, he pushed back on AIB rates already with success, the govt just don’t want to.

@Dan:
1.The Minister for Finance as titular shareholder has a controlling interest in PTSB, and it is ludicrous to suggest he cannot use his vote as shareholder to inform the board if it doesn’t obey his wishes he will convene an EGM and remove them and appoint directors who will.
2. I think most people would not be too concerned if non-performing BTL loans and residential loans where mortgagors had not engaged for several years were sold off. However, I suspect the bank is using the cover of the latter to bundle in residential loans where the owners have attempted to engage with the bank and insolvency agencies, and the bank has frustrated attempts to resolve these situations. If this is the case, we need to be told because it would be utterly unacceptable to allow the PTSB profit from its own cynical behaviour.
3. Everyone who takes out a mortgage will see on the promotional documentation the representation “Regulated by the Central Bank”. It beggars belief that anyone would dream of taking out a mortgage with an entity that claimed it was not so regulated. In which case there is a good argument to be made in law that CB regulation was a material representation that induced the mortgagor to engage with a regulated entity. This seems to imply that if a vulture fund repossesses, or otherwise behaves, in a manner contrary to the code set down by the CB for regulated mortgagees, the homeowner would have a good cause of action for misrepresentation against PTSB. It is ludicrous that a mortgagee could induce someone into a mortgage contract under a representation, and then dump its legal and equitable obligations by the expedient of selling-on the debt.

@Dan: there’s something fundamentally wrong with taxpayers bailing out private debt. AGAIN.

@phil: can you please provide a link to a property that is or has been repossessed in Ireland over “one or two missed payments”.

@phil:
That makes no sense. If someone had only missed one or two payments why would a bank sell the entire loan for only 10-30% of it’s value?? That might happen in your imagination but it doesn’t happen in the real world…

@Butch..whats the connection between the Bank’s policy and the housing crisis..please expand and educate us Also, where was the ‘legal obligations’ on the private entities that were the Banks to properly declare their solvency issues and to cease trading when the self made tide brought them under?

@phil: Not really true, its pretty hard to get evicted in reality. Judges are very slow to issue an eviction notice

Simple reality, like everything in this world, people see a situation and seek to exploit it. For every genuine case where a family cant cover the mortgage on their home, theres a chancer that simple decides he wont pay and claim poverty.

I have heard people with multiple properties proudly announce they stopped paying just to get better deals from banks.

@Walt Jabsco: yeah and what shouldn’t happen in the “real” world is property owners not paying the monthly amount they agreed to when they can in fact pay. It’s like people living in social housing who have new cars every year and 3 or 4 holidays. If they can afford to live the lavish lifestyle then they should pay their own way. If a family is genuinely struggling well then yes, they deserve time to resolve, they deserve the help they need and no they don’t deserve to be put out. I would be surprised if there was many people like this on their list.

@Walt Jabsco: Yes it does…and it is happening.

Why do you and so many others not want to see it. Is it because you are afraid? Does admitting to the truth means you have to acknowledge that it can happen to you too? Or someone you care about? Because guess what…it can.

@Walt Jabsco….and no one is talking about one or two payments. Where are you getting this from?

Yes…banks do sell mortgages that they deem as non and under performing for far below it’s market value…even if they are getting payments. They do this because a lump sum of anything is better to them than a loan restructure payment. They want these loans off their balance sheets…and they don’t care how little they sell them to VF’s for.

What is so hard to understand? So many people are being obtuse about this.
Is your reaction fear based….”well if this is what is happening, then that means it can happen to me”. Because it can happen to you or someone you care about.

@phil…was being superfluous when he made his one or two payments statement. He was trying to make a point. But he was spot on about the point he was making, with and the rest of what he said.

@Butch Francis: what a stupid false equivalency. You just don’t get it, do you.

I am forever amazed at the ignorance of people who make comments like yours.

Stop drinking the neoliberal Kool Aid that has sold Ireland off in the biggest car boot sale of the new millennium.

@Karl: the ones who see a situation and exploit it are the banks, the VF’s who pay no tax and contribute nothing to our economy….and the 1 percenters who hide their money in offshore accounts because they feel that taxes are only for the little people.

@Trevor Hayden: hold on, you are crying about rising rent and lack of housing and there are some people choosing not to pay and live in their houses for free even though they can pay. Delighted to see these vermin turned out and genuine buyers put in

@Trevor Hayden:
The statements in “-” brackets are by whom? False reporting is political prostitution.

@Michael Powell: Some people michael, what about the genuine people who’ve lost their jobs and merely need a respite period.
Or should we just tar all defaulters with the same brush?

@Patty Cullinane: no it is that simple you are just trying to bring in other issues. The government can’t run the banks but have oversight as majority share holders. Effectively they hold the rubber stamp and nothing more. Opposition parties know this and relying on public ignorance to make the government look bad but would have to do exactly the same.

@Kal Ipers: OK. ..I went over this whole thing yesterday with @Pat Bateman. So did @Gary Casserly. I am not about to say the exact same thing again. It would take too long and I don’t have the the time. I know your attitude and your prevailing opinions on this subject. Quite frankly. ..you do what @Pat Bateman and a lot of others with similar opinions do…you jockey for position on this subject always taking the position that ” govt and banks good, customers bad”. Fair enough. That is obviously up to you.
I understand what you are trying to get across. And no I am not trying to bring in other issues. I am speaking specifically about the Vulture Funds. Hopefully, this is just the first step in reforming the Irish classist banking structure. Look…even the Head of the Central Bank has said that this needs to happen in regards to their bullying and secretive tactics when dealing with mortgage customers and customers in general. The banks run roughshod over this country. And the govt facilitates this. The govt needs to now facilitate change, which the Central Bank has also said they need to do.

And even if the govt only has the power of oversight, which is hogwash….they are not even using that much power in a way that is beneficial to both the banks and the people who are their customers.

If opposition are just trying to make the govt look badly. ..well, they don’t have far to look.

As for the public’s ignorance….leave that to the #FeelingGoodWithFineGael crowd.

Here is the link if you care to read it.

http://www.thejournal.ie/permanent-tsb-vulture-funds-3859556-Feb2018/#comment-6966352

@Kal Ipers…..don’t forget that FF agreed to facilitate a FG led minority govt under a Confidence and Supply Arrangement. One part of this was supposed to provide protection for the homeowner. FG has not lived up to this. So good for FF for at least finally making a stand and trying enforce this agreement in regards to protecting the family home by providing greater protection for mortgage holders.

@Kal Ipers

FG is banking (pun intended ) on the ignorance of those who think their hands are tied. Not on those who know better.

Why do you think banking was taken out of towns and villages…and centralised to Dublin? In order to do exactly what they have been doing? None of what has been happening and continues to happen in the mortgage sector is an accident. It has all been carefully manipulated with the facilitation of our govt.

@Patty Cullinane: Patty says ‘I’m not going to go over it again’, proceeds to write 3 essays spaced apart by an hour

@Patty Cullinane: there is a board elected by the shareholders to act in the best interests of the bank. Other than that, or an EGM, the shareholders don’t get consulted on anything in any public company. In this case, there can be no denying that PTSB needs to get rid of these bad debts to whatever mug they can sell them to.

@patty purposely speaking out of both sides of his mouth to try distort the situation and confuse the easily confused

@Pat Bateman: actually Pat..I devoted way less time and effort into @Kap Ipers than I did you.

Writing 3 small essays spaced apart by an hour….I can do that with one of my hands tied behind my back. And if you bothered to read what I said….you could see the difference.

You are an unwell, antagonistic fool. And you are way too easy to talk rings around because you are so simple. Which you make obvious by your inane responses to anyone you see as threatening to your sensibilities. Your world is small and tidy. Go back to it.

@Cicero: i’d say what is happening now is a case or an EGM. We [the people] are the majority shareholders. This means that we are supposed to be represented, thru our representative. …Paschal Fecking Donohoe, who apparently forgot that he works for the people and not his vested interests.

@Patty Cullinane: I’m not questioning the difficulty in writing it, but very impressive to hear you could do it with your arm behind your back

@Pat Bateman: well thank you Pat. I am right, you’re world must be very small if you are this easily impressed.

Like I said to you yesterday. …you bailed out the banks too, and so did your children, and your grandchildren, and your great grandchildren, etc etc etc.
You are just as much a victim of the lies and deceit of the banks and the govt as everyone else. You are not special. You are a cog in theIr wheel too, and the bank and the govt uses and abuses your money for the privalege just like they do everyone else.

@Patty Cullinane: Great comment!

@Pat Bateman: ps….you also misquoted me.

@Kal Ipers: Finance minister can, he can also remove board members and senior mgmt if he wishes. He has the final say in some regards.

@Mumpsimus: They aren’t defending the chancers that stopped paying, they are using this as yet another thing to bash the Government with and be anti-everything and look for everything for free. The little man against the system syndrome. They are virtue signalling. I’ll bet the majority of them wouldn’t spout any of this crap in the pub with their mates – oh wait, they probably don’t go to the pub because of Diageo and some tenuous connection to the Government. I’m getting sick of it.

Also, the slew of repossessions we’ve been promised every 6 months for the last 10 years hasn’t happened and isn’t going to happen now either but the anti-everything lot won’t face up to that either.

Strategic defaulters ruin it for everyone.

@Gerry Cummins: WRONG. Read the fine print on the so called ‘mortgage protection insurance’. It was just another illiegal scam the banks forced onto their mortgage holders.

@TomTraubert: the “strategic defaulters’ you are referring to are the ones who are also avoiding paying taxes because they hide their money on offshore accounts. They are the ones ruining it for you and everyone else by not contributing their share to the economy, including the VF whose profits are not taxed and who pay nothing into this economy

Seriously, wake up. The being defended are not these people. The people being defend are distressed mortgage holders who have consistently tried to work out an agreement with their banks…either directly or thru the courts. When the banks refuse to engage…often times the distressed mortgage holder has no choice but to stop making full payment in order to get the bank to deal with them, and in order to have their case heard by a judge. It is a last resort for the distressed mortgage holders.

What is so difficulty for people who make similar comments to yours to understand about this?

Don’t think you are immune to this kind of draconian treatment. You are not immune, and nor have you been. You pay for the banks underhanded bulls**t deceitful practices just like everyone else,

Pray you and others of your opinion don’t fall victim to the same seventh circle of hell that the Irish Banking culture imposes on the distressed mortgage holders of this country. Because they will do you too.

@Nuala Mc Namara: It won’t add 20,000 to those figures though

@Pat Bateman:
Of that there’s supposed to be 14,000 families so more than 14,000 people finding themselves without a home!

@Nuala Mc Namara: 14,000 empty homes? That’s brilliant news for a country with a housing crisis

@Pat Bateman: Not if it adds at least 14,000-28,000(at minimum of 2people per home)+++ to homelessness figures!

@John003: on whos penny? Mine!

No thanks, I paid for my house and I pay tax but I have no desire to buy a house for everyone thanks very much

@John003: and how’s pay??? Why free houses??

@odonnellp exactly correct sir! You just forgot one thing…it will be the same idiots who will vote the Constant government of FF/FG back in again next time.despite all the crisis and huge social issues we have

@Gregory that would be too sensible and allowing too much autonomy to the Irish citizen

@odonnellp: thats you and i

@Butch Francis: but you are missing the point…the banks aren’t honouring their own contracts with the distressed mortgage holders.

@Free speech has to return here: who plunged us into the banking crisis and hasn’t a clue how to fix it? FF, i think you’ll find

@Patty Cullinane: hard to say that without some actual agreements being presented here?
I am sure if the banks were not honouring an agreement then they would be sued by the person paying the fully agreed amount.

@Cicero: Seriousl?…PTSB has already been caught selling restructured mortgages to VF. They can still do this even if they have if an agreement between them and the distressed mortgage holders has been signed, sealed, and delivered. And this is just some of what we know.

Sure…the bank can be sued. And they and their high price lawyers will drag it on for yrs. Just look at the Tracker Mortgage Scandal.

None of this should be happening in the first place. And the only reason we find out about it is because they might get caught.

You have to think outside the box. Saying things like ..”hard to say that without some actual agreements being presented here?” is just the point. Why do you think the bank doesn’t do it’s job….because they just want to sell everything off at once after labeling them as unsustainable instead of dealing with their customers as individuals, even when they are sustainable thru negotiation. It is lazy and irresponsible of the PTSB and any bank….and quick money for them. Why do you think banking was centralised to Dublin? So they could do smarmy site like this. This is called banking without responsibility. The banks have divested themselves of all their responsibilities. …and they use your money to do it.

They screwed everyone…not just the distressed mortgage holders.

Remember. ..you helped to bail them out too.

@Dave Doyle: we already have an army. Perhaps a more civilised approach could be all Irish people living abroad could send some cash to these squatters and tell them to pay the bank debts they owe.

@Cicero: Or maybe the government could bail them out as they did the banks.

@Nuala Mc Namara: The law changed after they had already did it. When they took away the trackers they acted legally. Then new law was made meaning that they had to offer them back. Imagine if you ran a business and you suddenly were told to take back under paying customers and pay them back.

@Kal Ipers: Trackers were “WRONGLY taken away” from /denied to customers or put on the “WRONG mortgage rate”…these are FACTS &why it’s described as “the Tracker mortgage scandal”&there has been court cases re same!

@Pat Bateman:
The banks werent “confused”!

@Nuala Mc Namara: Explain how this tracker scandal came about then Nuala

@Nuala Mc Namara: Exactly as the original poster said – your mortgage contract will support you. In the trackers, they are getting the rate restored and compensation payments.
If you know people that are currently paying their debt in full as agreed in this PTSB sale book then you should tell them contract a solicitor. If not, then you haven’t really got a point.

@Pat Bateman: Just read transcripts of Oireachtas Finance Committee re tracker scandal!

@Nuala Mc Namara: okay so you can’t explain what happened or how it came about

@Pat Bateman: And neither is the attempt by the PTSB at putting on the poor mouth here.

@Dave Doyle: PTSB shouldn’t have to defend selling bad loans. It has to be done, as directed by ECB. Why should those in long term arrears, who havnt the affordability to have their loan restructured, continue to live in a house for free?

@Pat Bateman: Do your own research,Pat,I already told you to check out Finance Committee Oireachtas debates re tracker scandal!