John, that census was a joke when it came to the religion category. You would have had parents ticking off the Roman Catholic box for their grown kids who haven’t been to mass in years, etc. Have a look at the percentage who said they could speak Irish and you’ll see what I mean.

A friend of mine who says he doesn’t believe in God and regularly slates the Catholic church due to their many flaws ticked the Catholic box in the census. When I questioned him on this seemingly idiotic act he said it was because he was brought up a Catholic so he just ticked it.

I think many non Catholics tick the box because they associate being Catholic with being Irish. It has been ingrained in our psyche that being Catholic differentiates us from the British therefore strengthening our own culture and identity.

I suspect many people who don’t believe in God or the Jesus story still ticked the box for reasons related to above. There are also other reasons such as parents and other family members filing out the census on behalf of their grown up children or spouses.

The true number of Catholics is falling dramatically and in another generation will probably be less than 50%.

I suspect you are 100% correct Noel.
Not to veer too much off topic but I expect the same mindless attitude prevails when voting… No wonder our country is in the mess it’s in!

Chris Gardner.
Yes it is insulting! – Not the way you see it however.
It is insulting to well meaning practicing Roman Catholics that a sizable portion of the population who neither agree with or support their beliefs would, in the privacy of their own homes, surreptitiously claim on the census form to belong to a religion they claim to despise because of some misguided ‘cultural’ affiliation with Roman Catholicism.
If I were a Roman Catholic I would not like to be sharing my affiliations with such people.

Brian:
Interesting that you mention Irish. I think it came in at about 40% of people claiming to speak the language. Anyway, taking that to be about correct it is still be significantly less less than those who claim to be ‘culturallly’ Roman Catholic! How ‘culturally’ Irish is that??

I meant to say ‘most’. It wasnt my intension to suggest they were pedophiles because of their sexual orientation but the priests sure did love boys. Whether it was boys or girls it is equally sick.

Daisy a”deity” doesn’t tell them to abuse children. It is their own sick minds.

Jesus another sick myth. Being gay has nothing to do with paedophilia. Another insult and misguided idea.

Daisy I agree with everything you say about the Chuch, The Institutional church to be more specific. But there are Catholics like myself who have faith in god and see the church needs to be cleaned out and to come into the modern world.

Daisy:
I respect practicing Roman Catholics. They are entitled to follow their faith which they rightly believe is their property and not the property of the errant hierarchy which has usurped it to their own ends. I also respect their rights to follow the teaching of their beliefs which sets out strict guidelines in matters of abortion and ‘same sex marriage’ etc. as long, of course, as they respect the rights of others to follow their beliefs (or none) in equal measure.
Irish Red:
My point in relation to the above comment is that I strongly suspect that of the 84% who claim to be Roman Catholic in the census only a very small proportion would be followers of it’s doctrine or faith . I’m puzzled as to why the others would claim to belong to a religion they don’t practice and vehemently disagree with to the point evidenced by the commentary on this site and throughout the population generally.

Daisy:

I will take your question at face value and assume that you mean it in good faith. In return, I will give you a good faith answer. I accept that you may not believe what I am saying; that’s fine. What i do ask is that you accept what i am saying in good faith.

Catholics believe that Jesus Christ founded a Church on very flawed men. Many of his disciples left him because they couldn’t acept his teaching. The 12 apostles were weak and unstable. One betrayed him, their leader denied him 3 times, and 9 of the others (with one exception) ran away at the crucial time of testing. It is the same today. And why would it be any different? Human nature has not changed!

Catholics believe that God gives free will. We are free to believe and accept, and we are free to not believe and we are also free to be hypocrites, like many priests and bishops were, not just now but also throughout history.

Catholics do not necessarily believe that priests are God’s representatives, as you suggest. They are chosen for a particular role, but all of the baptised, and especially all of the confirmed, are his reprsentatives. There is an odd clericalism in Ireland that elevates the clergy above their proper station (and often this clericalism was fuelled by those clerics themselves).

In relation to why there was so much abuse… Well, one can look at statistics saying that there are similar levels of abuse amongst the clergy and amongst oter groups in society. The statistics seem reliable. But really that isn’t good enough, for there should be no abuse whatsoever in the Church.

The reasons are complex and most people don’t want to hear them. But for what it’s worth, I’d say that some of the key reasons are:
1. The power of the Church – being a priest was a comfortable, respected position, so people without proper vocations became priests.
2. Too little scrutiny of the applicants for seminary.
3. The structure of Irish society – the eldest son got the farm. Where could the rest go? See point 1 above.
4. The heresy of Jansenism, which I believe to have been widespread in Ireland up to 40 years ago. (John Murphy – i know you will strike back at me on this, but I still believe it played a big role).
5. Distrust of the State and a desire to handle things in-house.
6. A refusal to actually handle things in-house. I think it was the Cloyne report that pointed out that many decent canon law penalties were available to stop these priests, but they were never used.
7. A morally corrupt sub-culture amongst the clergy in the 1970′s and 1980′s.

There are 7 simple possible reasons for the crisis. There is much more that could be said, but I don’t want to go on too long. Of course, some people will prefer simplistic notions about the Church being perennially corrupt and so on. More thoughful people might like to consider the above reasons.

It seems very clear that the number of abuse cases is way down from their height in the 1970′s and 1980′s. It was precisely this generation of priests that were most affected by the above 7 points – those conditions do not hold today.

In conclusion I would say that it makes no sense to judge an instituion by the people who betray it and its principles – if we want to be fair minded, we should judge an institution by those who best embody the qualities it seeks to espouse. It’s just a pity that there are few enough of them in recent Irish history.

Felix, according to the bible, God chooses those he wishes to be priests. I want to know, seeing as we’re not allowed pick and choose which bits we believe, why has God made such a lousy job of it lately?

I wouldnt know daisy as Ive never read it.

Almar.
I do disagree with the contention that the extent of sexual abuse, pedophilia, corruption and the coverup of these crimes in The Roman Catholic Church can be partly explained by some schism or the adverse influence of a misguided group. The culture of abuse and coverup was endemic to the point that even the State (Gardai, Government Depts. etc) colluded in the concealment.
However, the other points you raise in explanation for the extent of sexual abuse of children in the Roman Catholic Church I broadly agree with so I won’t (on this occasion!) smite you with my crozier!

I think @Almar to comprehensively judge an institution you have to judge BOTH the people who betray it (and how the institution handles those people) as well as the those who best embody it.

All the good that the best, honest, priests do or have done is tainted by the evil that some of their colleagues perpetrated. We are not talking about petty crimes here, we are talking about the ruining of children’s lives. The worst part is the Institution’s tolerance of these disgusting individuals and their guarding of them. On balance, I believe this institution did more bad than good.

Hi John – the heresy of Jansenism is one that overemphasises God’s judgement and has a scrupulous concern for sexual morality; it also underemphasises the importance of charity and mercy.

Let’s be clear – this imbalance is a heresy; it is not representative of the fullness of Catholic thought.

It seems pretty clear to me that this was very prevalent in Ireland in the first half of the 20th century, and I think it played an important role.

Almar.
I find (strangely enough maybe!) that I agree with you on most things. The schism/heresy thing I can’t swallow though.
Whether it’s Jansenist or Jesuit etc. these strands of Roman Catholicism paraded their wares in this country under that flag. The unfortunate schoolboy or girl that was abused by an adult male wearing a Roman collar wasn’t concerned with such distinctions.

Tell that to the victims, many who are still traumatised… some have even comitted suicide. Still the church gets people like you to tell victims to “get over it.” The catholic church is a corrupt, venal organisation, more concerned with money and status than the safety of the thousands of children it abused physically, sexually and emotionally.

Ireland doesn’t respond to the church in the way it still wishes anymore. We don’t show due deference, we don’t kiss rings or tug our forelock to the protectors of rapists. The church will be obsolete in a couple of generations and complaining bishops and cardinals need to stop whining that nobody listens to them anymore. Time to get over it!

your a mediocre troll at best but I still lol at your comments,keep up the mediocre work