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LAST UPDATE | 5 Sep 2022
LIZ TRUSS HAS been announced as the new leader of the UK’s Conservative party.
However, she will have to wait until tomorrow to be confirmed as the country’s new prime minister.
The six-weeks-long voting period for Conservative members to elect their new leader – Liz Truss or Rishi Sunak – ended on Friday evening.
Hello, Hayley Halpin here. I’ll be taking you through the next couple of hours as the UK’s Conservative party new leader is announced.
First, here’s a quick rundown of what we can expect over the next couple of days:
As noted below, Liz Truss is widely tipped to win the Conservative leadership contest.
According to reports today, she is strongly considering freezing energy bills in a bid to ease the burden on households this winter.
Having made tax cuts a key priority during her leadership campaign, Truss had remained tight-lipped about what kind of support package she might introduce as the UK faces the prospect of soaring energy bills and a worsening cost-of-living crisis.
But reports in The Daily Telegraph and The Times today suggest she is likely to introduce an energy bills freeze in some form.
The Times reports the package could be on the scale of the furlough scheme introduced by then-chancellor Rishi Sunak when the Covid-19 pandemic struck, while The Telegraph suggests the specifics of such a policy are still being debated.
Truss had used an interview on the BBC yesterday to insist that she would within a week reveal fresh help for struggling households, but repeatedly declined to spell out what those support measures might look like.
“Before you have been elected as prime minister, you don’t have all the wherewithal to get the things done,” she told the Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg programme.
“This is why it will take a week to sort out the precise plans and make sure we are able to announce them. That is why I cannot go into details at this stage. It would be wrong.”
Foreign Affairs Minister Simon Coveney has said he hopes “the direction of travel” of British-Irish relations can be changed under a Liz Truss premiership.
Speaking on RTÉ Morning Ireland earlier today, Coveney said he and Taoiseach Micheal Martin were in Oxford at the weekend to meet British ministers, and that “everyone was talking about what a Liz Truss premiership would look like”.
“Whether the strident way in which she has brought forward the Northern Ireland Protocol legislation in the UK, which, of course, has created a lot of tension and undermined trust, whether that will continue to be her strategy as prime minister or not.”
ented, very energetic politician and she is going to be the next prime minister and we’ll work with her and her team,’ Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney said as he predicts Liz Truss will be named the new British prime minister | Read more: https://t.co/4EpygJjy4o pic.twitter.com/3jgqj3yt0U
— RTÉ News (@rtenews) September 5, 2022
Coveney described Truss as a “talented, very energetic politician”.
“She is going to be the next prime minister, and we will work with her and her team, but I hope we can change the direction of travel for British-Irish relations that we’ve seen over the last couple of years, which really has been one of tension and standoff on very important issues – predominantly related to Northern Ireland,” he said.
Rishi Sunak looked tight-lipped and serious as he left his Kensington home this morning.
Clad in a dark suit and silver-grey tie, the former chancellor stayed silent and avoided eye contact with reporters as he boarded a security-staffed blue Range Rover.
Accompanied special adviser Lisa Lovering, he will be driven to Westminster to hear the results of the Tory leadership contest.
Sunak did not respond to questions about the race, which he is widely expected to lose, and was visible for only a few seconds before disappearing behind the Range Rover’s tinted windows.
There is “no fixed time” for the announcement of Boris Johnson’s resignation honours, Downing Street has said.
The outgoing Prime Minister’s official spokesman said: “It will be a matter for the new Government essentially on the timings, but there’s no fixed time for them at the moment.”
Northern Ireland Protocol
In a message to the incoming British prime minister, the European Commission said they would be expected to honour the Northern Ireland Protocol in full.
Commission spokesman Eric Mamer wished Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak good luck ahead of the announcement of the Tory leadership contest winner but said Brussels’ position on the protocol had not changed “one iota”.
Speaking in Brussels he said: “We are always looking for new beginnings. Obviously anything that can help move forward in our relationship with the United Kingdom will be very welcome.
“As to what we expect it is very clear, it has not changed one iota: We expect the full implementation of the Withdrawal Agreement, the Trade and Co-operation Agreement we have signed and, of course, the Irish and Northern Irish Protocol.”
Arrest
A man has been detained by police outside the Queen Elizabeth II Centre in Westminster, central London, where the announcement of who will become Tory Party leader and the next prime minister is due to take place at 12.30pm.
The man, who is a protester with the campaign group Animal Rebellion, has been handcuffed, carried off the road and frisked by officers.
Four others are sitting in the road opposite Westminster Abbey, holding a sign reading: “Planet-based future” and chanting: “Protect our planet, respect our future” while officers try to speak to them.
A fifth protester, Joel Scott-Halkes, 30, from Cornwall told the PA news agency: “We are going to continue disrupting the dairy industry for as long as it takes until there are supermarkets shortages.
“We are going to do this until the Government and the new prime minister meets our demands,” he added, saying these include ensuring the transition to plant-based farming and rewinding the land that that frees up.
The first MPs have begun arriving at the Queen Elizabeth II Centre in Westminster where the next Prime Minister is due to be announced.
Tory MP and former Culture Secretary Oliver Dowden arrived around 50 minutes ahead of the announcement.
Penny Mordaunt, an earlier contender in the Conservative Party leadership competition, arrived shortly afterwards.
Neither responded to the large media scrum assembled outside.
Oof.
Labour leader Keir Starmer has said he will not miss outgoing Prime Minister Boris Johnson when he leaves office tomorrow.
Questioned if he would miss Johnson, he told journalists at Friern Barnet School in north London: “No, I think it’s good that Boris Johnson has gone. It’s good for the country and he should stay gone.”
Sky News reports that Liz Truss has arrived for the leadership contest results.
Results are due to be announced at around 12.30pm.
Conservative party chairperson Andrew Stephenson is speaking on stage ahead of the results.
Graham Brady will speak next to announce the next Tory leader.
BREAKING
Liz Truss has been announced as the next Conservative party leader, paving the way for her to be confirmed as the new UK Prime Minister tomorrow.
Liz Truss won with 81,326 votes from the Tory membership, to Rishi Sunak’s 60,399.
I am honoured to be elected Leader of the Conservative Party.
Thank you for putting your trust in me to lead and deliver for our great country.
I will take bold action to get all of us through these tough times, grow our economy, and unleash the United Kingdom’s potential. pic.twitter.com/xCGGTJzjqb
— Liz for Leader (@trussliz) September 5, 2022
Liz Truss says it was an honour to be announced as the winner of the Tory leadership contest after a “hard-fought campaign” against Rishi Sunak.
Liz Truss praised “my friend” Boris Johnson as she accepted her victory in the Tory leadership contest.
She said: “I also want to thank our outgoing leader, my friend, Boris Johnson.”
She continued: “Boris, you got Brexit done, you crushed Jeremy Corbyn, you rolled out the vaccine and you stood up to Vladimir Putin. You were admired from Kyiv to Carlisle.”
There was a delay before applause from the audience.
Labour leader Keir Starmer has tweeted: “I’d like to congratulate our next prime minister Liz Truss as she prepares for office.
“But after 12 years of the Tories all we have to show for it is low wages, high prices, and a Tory cost-of-living crisis.
“Only Labour can deliver the fresh start our country needs.”
I'd like to congratulate our next Prime Minister Liz Truss as she prepares for office.
But after 12 years of the Tories all we have to show for it is low wages, high prices, and a Tory cost of living crisis.
Only Labour can deliver the fresh start our country needs.
— Keir Starmer (@Keir_Starmer) September 5, 2022
Liz Truss received a standing ovation after her victory speech in central London.
Here’s the moment Liz Truss was announced as the next Tory leader:
BREAKING: Liz Truss will become the next prime minister after defeating Rishi Sunak in the Conservative Party leadership contest.
— Sky News (@SkyNews) September 5, 2022
Ms Truss received 81,326 votes vs 60,399 for Mr Sunak.
Read more here: https://t.co/gARVTCAIVU
📺 Sky 501, Virgin 602, Freeview 233 and YouTube pic.twitter.com/SJDvcOEwxY
In her victory speech Liz Truss said: “Thank you for putting your faith in me to lead our great Conservative Party, the greatest political party on earth.
“I know that our beliefs resonate with the British people: our beliefs in freedom, in the ability to control your own life, in low taxes, in personal responsibility.
“I know that’s why people voted for us in such numbers in 2019 and as your party leader I intend to deliver what we promised those voters right across our great country.”
Liz Truss concluded her speech with a promise to “deliver a great victory” for her party in two years’ time.
“We all will deliver for our country and I will make sure that we use all the fantastic talents of the Conservative Party, our brilliant Members of Parliament and peers, our fantastic councillors, our MSs, our MSPs, all of our councillors and activists and members right across our country.
“Because my friends, I know that we will deliver, we will deliver and we will deliver.
“And we will deliver a great victory for the Conservative Party in 2024.”
Liz Truss says it is "an honour" to have been elected the new leader of the Conservative Party.
— Sky News (@SkyNews) September 5, 2022
The new Prime Minister paid tribute to Rishi Sunak and the outgoing PM Boris Johnson in her speech.
Follow live updates: https://t.co/ZTbv6x8cal
📺 Sky 501, Freeview 233 and YouTube pic.twitter.com/7eAYY6Uo5p
Congratulating Liz Truss, former prime minister and Conservative leader Theresa May said her party must now “work together”, adding that she looked forward to supporting Truss’ government in tackling the cost-of-living crisis.
“Congratulations (Liz Truss),” she tweeted.
“We Conservatives must now work together to address the challenges facing our country.
“Tackling the cost of living, delivering for those in need & managing the public finances responsibly. I look forward to supporting the Government in that task.”
Congratulations @TrussLiz.
We @Conservatives must now work together to address the challenges facing our country. Tackling the cost of living, delivering for those in need & managing the public finances responsibly. I look forward to supporting the government in that task.
— Theresa May (@theresa_may) September 5, 2022
Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said she “will seek to build a good working relationship” with Liz Truss after her election as Conservative leader.
She tweeted: “Congratulations to Liz Truss. Our political differences are deep, but I will seek to build a good working relationship with her as I did with last 3 (prime ministers).
“She must now freeze energy bills for people & businesses, deliver more cash support, and increase funding for public services.”
So, now that Liz Truss has been announced as the new Tory leader, what happens next?
Let’s look at the plans for the next few days..
Today
Truss is expected to spend the rest of the day finalising her choices for Cabinet and wider ministerial roles and writing her first prime ministerial speech.
While officials from her team start being brought into government, Truss – who is not yet prime minister – has to wait until the following day to pass through the famous door of No 10.
Tomorrow
In a break with tradition, Boris Johnson and his successor will go to Balmoral in Scotland for the appointment of the new prime minister tomorrow, rather than Buckingham Palace.
Under normal circumstances, the pomp and drama of the appointment is mostly confined to London over the course of an afternoon, with the outgoing premier making a statement outside No 10 before a short car ride to Buckingham Palace.
But this time, the departing and incoming prime minister will both have to make the 500-mile journey to the Queen’s Aberdeenshire retreat.
Johnson is expected to make a farewell address outside No 10 at around 8.30am tomorrow before departing Downing Street for the last time.
Johnson and Truss are expected to fly to Aberdeen on separate planes – a journey that will likely take only a couple of hours.
He could formally tender his resignation at around 11am, in what has been described by allies as likely to be a “very sad” occasion for Johnson.
Once he has left, the new Tory leader will be invited in for her private audience with the Queen. Truss will be appointed Britain’s next prime minister and asked to form an administration – possibly by around midday.
Truss is then expected to fly back to London and arrive at Downing Street to address the nation for the first time as PM at around 4pm.
She is expected to make senior Cabinet appointments.
Wednesday
The new Cabinet is due to meet on Wednesday morning before Truss faces Labour leader Keir Starmer during her first Prime Minister’s Questions at noon.
She will continue to receive briefings and calls from international leaders as she starts working through her in-tray, which is more daunting than that of many of her recent predecessors, with challenges ranging from the cost-of-living crisis to Ukraine and industrial unrest.
Outgoing Prime Minister Boris Johnson said his successor Liz Truss “has the right plan to tackle the cost of living crisis, unite our party and continue the great work of uniting and levelling up our country”.
Defeated Tory leadership contender Rishi Sunak has tweeted: “It’s right we now unite behind the new PM, Liz Truss, as she steers the country through difficult times.”
Thank you to everyone who voted for me in this campaign.
— Rishi Sunak (@RishiSunak) September 5, 2022
I’ve said throughout that the Conservatives are one family.
It’s right we now unite behind the new PM, Liz Truss, as she steers the country through difficult times.
Sinn Féin vice president Michelle O’Neill has said Liz Truss needed to prioritise the restoration of powersharing in Northern Ireland.
O’Neill said the UK Government needed to stop “pandering to the DUP” as she called for an urgent meeting with the incoming prime minister.
“Liz Truss has an opportunity to come in now and stop pandering to the DUP, stop pandering to the approach which is damaging to our ability to help people through the cost of living crisis,” she said.
She urged the new prime minister not to suspend the Northern Ireland Protocol, by triggering Article 16 of the post-Brexit arrangements, and instead engage with the EU and Irish government to find a resolution to the issues with Irish Sea trade.
“What we need to see now is a change of tack, a change of policy, a change of approach,” she said.
O’Neill added: “Even at this late stage Liz Truss has an opportunity when she comes in to her new post to actually work with the EU, work with the Irish government, find ways to reset relationships and find ways to make the protocol work because we all know there are solutions there, that are on the table.”
Taoiseach Micheál Martin has congratulated Truss on her election as Tory leader.
Congratulations @trussliz on your election as Conservative party leader.
— Micheál Martin (@MichealMartinTD) September 5, 2022
I look forward to working with you, as PM of our nearest neighbour, on important issues we face together, both bilaterally and globally.
European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen said she wanted a “constructive relationship” with Liz Truss “in full respect of our agreements”.
The new Tory leader has said she intends to press ahead with the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, which will allow the UK Government to override parts of the agreement struck with the European Union on post-Brexit arrangements.
“The EU and the UK are partners,” von der Leyen said.
“We face many challenges together, from climate change to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
“I look forward to a constructive relationship, in full respect of our agreements.”
Congratulations @trussliz. The EU and the UK are partners.
We face many challenges together, from climate change to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
I look forward to a constructive relationship, in full respect of our agreements.
— Ursula von der Leyen (@vonderleyen) September 5, 2022
On the streets of Birmingham, people have been reacting to the news Liz Truss will be the next UK prime minister.
Euan Healy told PA News: “She’s going to be a disaster, 12 years of Tories, what have they done to this country.
“We’re in a cost-of-living crisis now, and they could have done something; dealt with the energy crisis for the last 12 years, dealt with the housing crisis for the last 12 years.
“They haven’t got any new ideas.
“Replace the leader all you want, it’s the same people. The same Tories all the time.”
Another Birmingham resident, speaking in Victoria Square in the city centre, Matt Smith, said: “I fail to see anything positive from the Tory party, from Liz Truss taking over from Boris Johnson.
“Certain people said they look back on Boris’s time as being a good time, it flabbergasts me, they (the Tories) are so self-absorbed.
“He has just changed British politics, by his lies, forever. It is so sad to see standards in public life are so low.”
Birmingham resident Carol Lewis, who was enjoying the sunshine in Victoria Square, said: “It’s very small number of people who have chosen this woman.
“I don’t really see she’s got a real mandate to be honest. I don’t think her focus will be on helping ordinary people.
“I think there is a very strong streak through the Tory party where it’s looking after themselves and their own mates, and uncle Algernon who owns the water company and everything else.
“I think it’s very sad, I think they’ve become a party of a very small group of people who are out of touch.”
Liz Truss has arrived at the Conservative Campaign Headquarters in Westminster after she won the Tory leadership contest.
She arrived in a car with Work and Pensions Secretary Therese Coffey.
She was met by crowds of reporters and stood at the top of the steps posing for a photo with Conservative Party co-chairman Andrew Stephenson.
Anti-Brexit campaigner Steve Bray and his supporters shouted at Ms Truss from outside the gate while playing loud music.
DUP leader Jeffrey Donaldson said he wanted to see Liz Truss deal with the Northern Ireland Protocol as a priority.
Donaldson said he had already written to the incoming prime minister setting out what his party believed her priorities should be.
He said: “Chief among those is taking forward the bill which will provide a basis for a solution to deal with the protocol, to remove the barriers to trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, to fully restore Northern Ireland’s place within the UK internal market.
“We have seen recently the consequences, yet again of those barriers to trade with 25% tariffs on steel products moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, all of that has an impact on our economy.
“This is the consequence of a protocol which harms our economy, which drives up the cost of living in Northern Ireland every day, adding to the cost of food and other products in our supermarkets.”
The DUP leader added: “So, in tackling the cost of living, the Prime Minister must continue to tackle the consequences of the protocol because we want to see that dealt with decisively. We will be saying to the Prime Minister that is why action is needed, that is why we need to see this legislation going through Parliament.”
Donaldson said the DUP needed to see decisive action over the Northern Ireland Protocol before there could be any restoration of Stormont powersharing institutions.
He said: “I made my position absolutely clear during the Assembly election and I secured a mandate for that position.
“We are taking this stance because we believe the basis for powersharing does not exist at the moment. There is not a cross-community consensus – the protocol has destroyed that consensus.
“We will be saying to the prime minister that is why action is needed, that is why we need to see this legislation going through Parliament, and if there is to be renewed negotiation with the EU, then the prime minister needs to be very clear that for the institutions to be restored, decisive action is required to remove the barriers of trade and to respect the integrity of the UK internal market.”
European Commission vice-president Maros Sefcovic, who has been leading the Brussels side in talks on implementing the Brexit arrangements, said a “positive relationship” between the UK and EU “is of great strategic importance”.
“I stand ready to work intensively and constructively with my new UK interlocutor to foster such a partnership, in full respect of our agreements,” he said.
Congratulations @trussliz. A positive 🇪🇺🇬🇧 relationship is of great strategic importance. I stand ready to work intensively and constructively with my new UK interlocutor to foster such a partnership, in full respect of our agreements.
— Maroš Šefčovič🇪🇺 (@MarosSefcovic) September 5, 2022
Truss will tomorrow travel to the Scottish Highlands to meet the British queen at Balmoral Castle, where she will be asked to form a government and become prime minister.
The historic audience will be the first time the 96-year-old monarch, who has faced ongoing mobility issues, has carried out the key duty at her retreat in Aberdeenshire, rather than at Buckingham Palace.
The audience will take place in Balmoral’s green-carpeted Drawing Room, following Boris Johnson’s audience with the queen, during which he will tender his resignation as PM.
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The way the scientific community has worked to gather, sharing data etc., to try and get a solution to this problem is actually really inspiring.
@Tricia G: Absolutely, no cause for suspicion.
@John Brendan Mullen: Right……cos its just so likely that literally 1000s of members of the scientific community are conspiring to…. do what? Make you infertile? Have you grow a third ear? What? What’s their end game?
Honestly, you must think everyone is just out to get you!
@John Brendan Mullen: I really hope people like you are in the minority. We need a good take up rate to get our lives back to normal. Unless you really do like the rolling lockdowns.
@John Brendan Mullen: Hat Foil Tin much?? Always one.
@michael: you would be surprised of the amount of people who are unfortunately sceptical of the vaccine. This is the problem with social media, it gives people a platform to spread information without any factual evidence to back it up.
@Kev:The Virus Won’t Stop Evolving When the Vaccine Arrives
The coronavirus is not a shape shifter like the flu virus, but it could become vaccine resistant over time.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/27/science/covid-vaccine-virus-resistance.html?fbclid=IwAR22o94Fe-Co6Q2YbxyJ0UOuL8MSHeBjVJ7GxyagDgQJ7opqS-k4PLAZ4h4
@Tricia G: not at all, I just don’t want to be a human guinea pig for a vaccine that has not been proven. Also, I don’t see the point in taking a vaccine for such a benign virus. I’ve has it and while I wouldn’t recommend it, I’d choose for another dose of corona before a root canal treatment
@michael: i don’t like lockdown but I have enough sense to do my own research and what I have found in the official government statistics is a lower monthly mortality rate for every month of 2020, excluding April, compared to the same month over the previous 5 years
@michael: what we really need is for people to stand up for their basic civil and human rights
@Gavin Mckenna: hahaha, you have won me over with the precision and depth of your case, head case
@Tricia G: I’ve no issue with vaccinations but this is yet to be peer reviewed. We have only press releases but already we are talking about rolling it out. The scientific community needs to come back together to your point and verify the data now as there’s a lot of questions to answer. The british medical journal highlighted as such yesterday
@Kev: same applies to the mainstream media
@michael: It could still come back in from the likes of Brazil at a later date, not sure how distribution of a -70 degree vaccine will get on in those countries. But it’s got to be very mild after everyone has their bodies ‘trained’. It’ll only be the antivaxers left to get the full wack with a naive immune systems.
@John Brendan Mullen: how are you being a quinea pig by taking the vaccine do tell us
@John Brendan Mullen: yes John – and here’s a heads up for you
\
‘just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they are not out to get you’.
get some fresh air….
@John Brendan Mullen: melt of a human
@John Purcell: as I said, I won’t be taking their vaccine
@artur filip: the brilliant advantage of mRNA vaccines is the ability to rapidly change the mRNA in the vaccine to match any future virus mutations without having to go back to designing the vaccine from scratch.
@Faded79: “ve no issue with vaccinations but this is yet to be peer reviewed.”
No, vaccines are being peer reviewed e.g.
Anderson, et al., 2020. Safety and immunogenicity of SARS-CoV-2 mRNA-1273 vaccine in older adults. New England Journal of Medicine. 10.1056/NEJMoa2028436
Approval by regulators is another layer of peer review.
Also, the first batches of vaccine will be given to medical workers and care home staff, it will be in short supply. The next group to get the vaccine will be high risk groups, elderly in care homes, people with pre-existing conditions e.g. Cystic Fibrous, COPD, severe Asthma etc.
As the vaccine is rolled out gradually over the next year, I think confidence will increase as people see there’s no adverse advents. The last phase will be general vaccination, children will be last. By then we will have lots of data on the safety of the vaccines and confidence will be higher then now.
Just got off the phone with George Soros and Bill Gates, they said they are very worried that a few lads who dropped out before the junior cert are after uncovering their scheme.
@Ned Gerblansky: Brilliant
@Ned Gerblansky: sums up every comment section on the subject
Sign me up..
@John Kinsella: I delegate you to take their vaccine on my behalf
@John Brendan Mullen: or you could take the wild decision of making your own decision and letting others make theirs.
@John Brendan Mullen: You are on!
@Evan: i won’t be taking their vaccine
@John Brendan Mullen: as is your right. It won’t be compulsory so I have no idea why you and your ilk have to keep shouting it from the rooftops. Nobody is going to force you. I didn’t take sugar in my tea this morning, I didn’t feel compelled to go around informing everyone I met though.
@Evan: I’m just having a wee giggle at all you concerned citizens, this lockdown madness would be a lot worse if I didn’t have you guys to amuse me
@John Brendan Mullen: h
@John Brendan Mullen: hopefully you will be stopped from attending events and travelling. Good luck with your boring existence.
Irish government has indemnified drug companies against any liability arising from complications with the vaccine. Why?
@Gerry Murphy: Because there isn’t a single modern medicine that is 100% safe.
It’s a risk-cost benefit analysis.
There are always people that will have a bad reaction, but in the overall scheme of things, many millions will be helped.
@Gerry Murphy: ask ned gerblansky, he’s the clever clown in here
The drug companies have gov.indemnity against liability in case of problems with vaccine.
@Gerry Murphy: You realise that’s not some massive conspiracy, right?
@Gerry Murphy: We know every scientist has been working on a vaccine non stop since the beginning of the year. Yet despit this people with little or no qualifications still believe they know more than the combined weight of the worlds scientists who have reviewed and checked each others work. Literally, millions of extremely well qualified people in almost every country, sharing data and checking it, but one keyboard warrior thinks he knows better. The mind boggles.
Well I won’t be taken it.
@snotser: it doesn’t work in pigs. Or pillocks
@snotser: well, soon you’ll not be allowed to get on a plane without a vaccine (Qantas and several minor airlines have already announced this, with more to follow suit), so that will be your holliers in the Costas gone.
@Brian Ó Dálaigh:
https://www.traveloffpath.com/travel-agency-boycotts-qantas-airlines-over-forced-vaccinations/.
@David Clements: that’s exactly why I’m not taking it,I’ll be bacon by then
@artur filip: Travel agents do nothing these days. They’d be nothing without airlines. Just wait till more airlines go with this, watch the agencies change their tune. Why anyone doesn’t book their own flights and hotel is beyond me….it’s much cheaper.
@artur filip: travel agencies are largely redundant. Meanwhile, United Airlines, Emirates, Gulf, Aeroflot, and Delta are all looking like they will also being in the same requirement. It looks like, before long, that travel agency will have no customers.
@David Clements: so you’ll have to give it a miss then. ? Ahh, god bless
It’s important to highlight that older vunerable people are not the main people that the vaccine is tested on.
The real test of success is when it’s rolled out to those this group.
30,000 volunteers doesn’t represent what efficiency we’ll get on a million older and vunerable people in Ireland.
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/older-adults-are-more-at-risk-for-covid-19-so-why-dont-vaccine-trials-include-them
So hold the horses on the idea the vaccine can achieve such high efficiency.
The approval would be given even if 50% efficient.
Flu vaccine varies every year from 20% to 60%, there’s a few strains of flu that causes this.
Mounting the immune response required in older adults is a long standing challenge in human Vaccines .
@Rory Mac Daibhéid: The moderna trial had 7000 people over the age of 65.
@Tricia G: I tried to get the numbers of idler adults and all I could find was that in general older adults are under represented.
Have you the data?
In Ireland the median age of deaths for covid is 83 and mean age 81.
I’m very skeptical a vaccine will stimulate an immune response in those that need it most.
I’ve no doubt that a vaccine can work in younger healthier volunteers but in general covid doesn’t affect them, the vaccine trials say it’s tested on people that haven’t had covid . But they don’t test for existing immunity or T or B cells so when they say success it’s based on exposure and nobody is testing full existing Immunity.
I don’t see how the vaccine can have high success in the people that are over represented in the covid deaths statisics.
@Rory Mac Daibhéid: I got the information from the article you posted…….
It details multiple trials, first one is the moderna one. The details of the phase three trial state “This included more than 7,000 people over the age of 65 and more than 5,000 younger people with chronic conditions…”
It also links to the Moderna announcement from Oct 22nd.
@Rory Mac Daibhéid: It’s not rocket science, Rory, or at least this part isn’t.
The more non-vulnerable people that are immunised, the less they will spread the disease throughout the community, the less Covid reaches the old and vulnerable.
Even if older people don’t have a strong immune response to the vaccine (not suggested by the data so far) then it’ll still have a huge effect on the pandemic because they’ll have less chances of contracting it from other people in their daily lives.
@▪️:
My statement didn’t suggest a vaccine won’t have an effect.
I’m very skeptical we’ll have a strong Immune response that prevents deaths is the majority of people in Ireland who covid killed. Over 80′s.
If less covid is in circulation due to a vaccine it could indirectly achieve that.
@Tricia G: They discovered that in studies registered between October 2019 and June 2020, over 50 percent of COVID-19 clinical trials and vaccine trials excluded people over 65.”
? Where did you get the information that 7000 over 65 in Moderns Trial?
When you get 100,000 over 80 in a trial you’ll see how successful it is.
I think all the people in Trials that are older like in every country are not exposing themselves to infection so all the cases of infection in younger people doesn’t seem like evidence to me.
@Tricia G: Our concern is more than theoretical. Even without stated age-based exclusions, several recently published clinical trials of COVID-19 treatments had young age ranges, such as 1 recent study4 with a median age of only 40 years, meaning there would be no or few participants over age 75.”
That’s my concern and nobody is addressing it.
@Rory Mac Daibhéid: Eh…. There were no studies in 2019…
Also, please read down the page in the article YOU POSTED! Under the section COVID-19 vaccines.
And don’t think I didn’t notice you’re moving the goalposts.
Your point was older people were excluded from the 30,000 cited. That’s not true as per Moderna’s release as of Oct 22nd 2020 (all linked in your article).
No one disputes that those most at risk are the elderly, but a phase 3 trial with 7000 over 65 and still with an immunity in the 90% range is very good.
@Rory Mac Daibhéid: Here is the press release
@Rory Mac Daibhéid: BTW, after reviewing the press release, I read the article in the New England Journal of Medicine FROM Sept 29th 2020 detailing a trial involving 55-70 and 70+
I suggest you go check it out.
@Rory Mac Daibhéid: dig up Rory
@Tricia G: I’m not moving any goalposts.
Thanks for the link you’ve sent me the information I was looking for. I checked for This information and couldn’t find it.
That’s (your Link) is more reassuring than what I’ve seen so far.
To achieve high efficiency in such age groups in main mark of success to me.
@Tricia G: I suggest people be honest also, the vaccine has not shown it will save the lives of the mean person who died of Covid. That’s a 83 year with 2 underlying conditions. There’s a massive difference between over 65 and over 75.
The concern I have is this vaccine is still it’s not shown to work in over 75 year olds with underlying conditions.
Thats who needs Protection from covid.
The data from HSPC gives the details of those deaths.
Which leaves me with same question.
Which can only be answered if they rollout out the vaccine to the most vunerable.
Stage 3 trail is not evidence in my opinion of efficiency.
It’s a good result but biased and skewed.
Let’s see what happens when the do the real World trail.
It’s likely to protect the over 75s is to stop them getting covid still for the foreseeable future.
@Rory Mac Daibhéid:
More importantly they have not said if it stops transmission, with the Oxford vaccine they reported that they think it may have some impact!
99+ of the world population have not gotten ill from SARS CoV2 – 7.8billion divided by those tested positive 63million, 40milllion recovered. the promotion for these vaccines is less than that. If these vaccines don’t stop transmission then hopefully they will work on older people, if not then then they may be a great Placebo!
In Nigeria last time I checked, about two weeks ago,1163 died from C19 out of 203million. Lagos city has a population of over 14million, 3 times the population of Ireland! Proof if ever there was that C19 impacts hardest on older people -life expectancy is 57 in Nigeria and they only have 350 ICU beds!
@Rory Mac Daibhéid:
Your not allowed ask questions, without question you must believe in the consensus belief science, otherwise you may be asked to resign and will be classified as an outlier and anti vaxxer!
@Joeohah: it’s doesn’t stop transmission. It doesn’t stop infection and it’s meant to stop illness.
With covid your immune system stops illness when you’re young.
When you’re older your immune response is lessened hence the data on who covid19 affects most.
I think vitamin D and finding medical treatments for respiratory illnesses would save more lives than the vaccine directly.
Indirectly I think it might save lives but I’m uncertain.
We should treat this like we do a bad flu season and also be realistic that flu vaccine never eradicates flu.
I’m skeptical until proven otherwise, nothing done to date proves otherwise.
@Spongetron: everyone should dig into the vaccine expectations especially as it’s affects so many.
I rather I didn’t have to hear these false claims and misleading things in the media.
Outright lies and fabrication from AstraZeneca’s trial already. Basically 62% efficiency in under and then they pretend they had 90 % , which was under 55s, and the only reason was a dosing error!
Media is driven a false narrative and absolute shambles about this magic bullet vaccine.
It’s another flu vaccine, let’s hope it’s better than the 20% efficiency which is still considered a success for flu vaccine years.
@Rory Mac Daibhéid:
“your just another anti vaxxer!” “do you not care if people die!” Remember 88 people die every day in Ireland and yesterday the HSE said that there are 85% fewer people are on trollies compared to this time last year!
They will be able to claim the vaccine worked in the summer and later they can say that 90% are not ill which is already the case.
Let’s hope it does work, even as a placebo!
Remember the swine flu vaccine farce, it was never needed.
@Joeohah: you get a lot of abuse if you ask questions or the death shame cancel culture.
I don’t think any rational and logical debate is allowed in this pandemic.
What people should remember is the people in charge decided in March they won’t Protect anyone over 80 in a nursing home when they went ahead untested all patients from ICU , sent them to nursing homes, allowed people in nursing homes to die, no access to ICU or medical care, given sedatives only and nobody got near them. So we’d over 60% of the deaths here back in the first wave.
The Government and NPHET and the HSE decided these deaths where not to be important as they believed we’d have tens of thousands dying.
Every model was wrong.
Now we’re to believe they want to save lives.
The vaccine won’t work on the immune system on the majority of the people that died of Covid in my opinion.
In the general population it will work, what’s driving that will be a mix of things though.
Boosting the immune system and changing how institutional care and elder care in the country is the main way they could save lives.
Professor Luke on Newstalk said Pharma wouldn’t lie about the efficiency, but Astra Zenca lied so much there in trouble for it!
Will Professor Luke correct that in the media now?? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/25/business/coronavirus-vaccine-astrazeneca-oxford.html
@Rory Mac Daibhéid:
Yes, and still no inquiry into the nursing home deaths at least Sweden admitted there mistakes, thus they learned from it!
I can’t post links!
@Rory Mac Daibhéid: Rory, your comments are all over the shop. There’s so much wrong in each of them it’s actually too time consuming to pick out each point.
We can go one by one if you like. Let’s start with one or two.
When did AstraZeneca “lie” about results? If you think they lied a) you don’t understand the story and b) Oxford/AZ informed the regulator and got the go-ahead for the trial design after they realised what they’d messed up. All above board – where was the “lie”?
How aren’t phase 3 trials proof of efficacy (the word is efficacy, not efficiency like you keep saying, that’s something completely different)? That’s exactly what Phase III trials are designed for.
@Rory Mac Daibhéid: 20% is an extremely low figure for flu vaccine efficacy, just to clarify. Most estimates put the efficacy between 30-60%, varies by year, but even low efficacy will impact the spread of a virus when you scale it to a population level. Obviously more is better, but this myth about some sort of useless flu vaccine needs to be countered.
@Rory Mac Daibhéid: Finally, and this is all I have time for because as I say there’s a misrepresentation of the facts with virtually every sentence you wrote, the evidence for vit D efficacy vs. Covid is not particularly convincing compared to early vaccine data.
What’s very strange is that you aren’t convinced by robust placebo controlled RCTs involving vaccines, yet mainly observational studies about vitamin D seem to have you on board. There are serious flaws with the methodology of a lot of these vit D trials and most of them aren’t randomised/placebo controlled, they just looked at trends. Strange how you’d ignore those limitations yet hold vaccines to a much higher standard of efficacy?
@Rory Mac Daibhéid:
The NYT above – the USA might be in competition with the much cheaper Oxford vaccines as with the similar Russian one.
…..,…..
Then there this:
”
The 40-year-old trial participant, who received the vaccine shots on Oct. 1 at a trial site in Chennai, India, said he experienced acute “neurological and psychological” side effects after he received the vaccine. He is seeking 50 million rupees—around $676,000—in compensation. The man also called for the testing, manufacturing, and distribution of the AstraZeneca vaccine to be “stopped immediately”
@Rory Mac Daibhéid:
If they are rolled out in spring, how and when will we know if these vaccines work – last summer there were few deaths – the effectiveness of a vaccine may wane in the following winter!
@▪️: I’m not misrepresenting anything.
Thanks for reply.
I feel Astra Zenca lied but look no point arguing over it as you can get into conspiracies and argue about stock markets signals like with Pfizer and market consolidation. No point though.
I’ve never said flu vaccine was useless, I’m suggesting we should base our expectations on covid vaccine on Flu vaccine success.
I fully expect a low efficacy (yes I kept using the wrong word) in covid vaccine in those that need it most, this is reality.
To be optimistic if the efficacy in under 65s is high that can protect the older groups.
On Vitamin D I think the science is extremely. Powerful on how it’s being studied for https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=COVID-19&term=Vitamin+D&cntry=&state=&city=&dist=&Search=Search
Vitamin D sufficiency is as important as vaccines, if they done both I’d imagine the lives potentially saved would exceed all expectations, only if they done both.
And not ,400iu supplements but get everyone in the world to sufficiency levels over winter ,
for clinical practice, a serum 25(OH)D concentration of more than 75 nmol/L (30 ng/mL) is necessary.
Do this and vaccines and you’ll have a high efficacy.
@Rory Mac Daibhéid: I honestly have no clue how you’ve read the story on the AZ/oxford trial mishap and have come to the conclusion that there was lying involved. You’re just brushing it off but it’s a big deal to say that they’ve lied, and you don’t seem to be providing any evidence for it. As for stock market manipulation, it’s mandatory for these companies to report findings as soon as they have them to reduce the risk of insider trading. Not sure if that’s what you were getting at?
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=f90570e9-5663-4033-a524-aa565f24136f
More info on Market Abuse Regulation re: drug trials and disclosure in that link if you’re interested.
“we should base our expectations on covid vaccine on Flu vaccine success”
Why? The flu virus is a particularly difficult virus to vaccinate against. SARS-CoV-2 isn’t in the same family as flu. Why pick that one? MMR vaccines for example have extremely high efficacy. As do vaccines for many other viruses. It makes no sense to assume as a baseline that the Covid vaccines will have efficacy somewhere in the range of the flu vaccine, so why should that be our expectation?
Now, re: the link you sent me about Vit D clinical trials… well. If you look at the list of trials that come up from that search, you see the vast majority of them haven’t been completed. When you filter out for completed trials, the majority haven’t posted results. The only ones (two studies) that have posted results aren’t even testing Vitamin D!
This is exactly what I’m talking about; there is a serious lack of *good* data to back up the Vit D hypothesis as things stand, for sure it’s worth intensive study (as we can see, it’s in progress) but it’s totally nonsensical to say Vit D is more (or as) promising compared to the various vaccine trials.
Agree with sufficiency levels being a good goal to strive for just in terms of general health, but the hype surrounding the Covid question is completely separate and I’ve not seen anything rock solid yet. There are plenty of trials underway, the sensible thing to do is wait and see what they come up with before going flying into mass Vit D prophylaxis for C-19.
@Joeohah: if the vaccine is a success In older people that’s good enough for me.
But the idea that healthy under 55s show success in a vaccine by having a asymptomatic cases is basically what covid does to someone with sufficient vitamin D and especially someone with common exposure to circulating non covid 19 coronaviruses but the numerous other similar viruses in circulation, cross immunity.
I actually think the success of the vaccine wouldn’t be very clear.
I think it will be similar to flu vaccine which doesn’t eradicate it.
Flu seems to have not arrived in any large numbers this season yet though so that’s quite novel so far.
It’s very difficult to prove a lot of things with covid.
I heard they’re planning a direct infection study in the UK in January to find out what a ‘infectious dose’ is.
Many unknowns and when the existing Immunity of volunteers is ignored and exposure we’ve no idea how efficacious a vaccine really is.
I’d base the success on the lower rates of success of the flu vaccine which unfortunately fails to directly protect deaths in many of the most vunerable but indirectly less circulation and transmission is their Protection.
@▪️: every expert in the world including Irish ones have said Vitamin D supplements will save lives especially over the winter, so we do need to rush it.
Uk is ahead of the curve here.
AstraZeneca manipulated and lied and they have been called out in the media over it.
You can find the article.
I’m correct in being skeptical.
That’s doesn’t equate with not supporting it .
I’m not interested in press releases and statements or tiny trials.
The real trail hasn’t Started yet.
Only then will we see if it’s just ‘as good’ as flu vaccine.
Our strategies for society must assume this low level of success only not fantasies of eradication and defeat of the virus.
I’m being skeptical of a vaccine for a respiratory illness similar to flu achieving immune response in mean age of Irish deaths 81 plus.
@Rory Mac Daibhéid: No, they have tested the safety and effecinvess of the vaccines on older adults…
Anderson, E.J., Rouphael, N.G., Widge, A.T., Jackson, L.A., Roberts, P.C., Makhene, M., Chappell, J.D., Denison, M.R., Stevens, L.J., Pruijssers, A.J. and McDermott, A.B., 2020. Safety and immunogenicity of SARS-CoV-2 mRNA-1273 vaccine in older adults. New England Journal of Medicine. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2028436
Ramasamy, M.N., Minassian, A.M., Ewer, K.J., Flaxman, A.L., Folegatti, P.M., Owens, D.R., Voysey, M., Aley, P.K., Angus, B., Babbage, G. and Belij-Rammerstorfer, S., 2020. Safety and immunogenicity of ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine administered in a prime-boost regimen in young and old adults (COV002): a single-blind, randomised, controlled, phase 2/3 trial. The Lancet.
@Rory Mac Daibhéid: I’m one of those ‘vulnerable’ people you refer to. I won’t go into details about my collection of conditions, comorbidities they call them, but suffice to say if i were to catch Covid-19 I’d be unlikely to survive. So, would I take the vaccine then? Yes, in a heartbeat.
Think about that. Covid-19 will kill me, that’s a given. The vaccine is almost guarranteed to protect me, with no side effects so anyone like me would have to be an idiot not to take it. Tell me, what exactly is your qualification, what experiance do you have in the medical field, because I prefer to take my advice from the qualified experts.
@Arch Angel: you might be confused, I’ve asked a question(a)
I also gave an opinion.
I’ve never suggesting someone doesn’t take the vaccine, When did I suggest that?
I don’t believe it’s going to directly work on the immune system of those who covid kills, that’s not a popular thing to say but it’s my opinion.
I think the vaccine will have to avoid these deaths by less Covid.
I’d recommend everyone makes sure their vitamin D levels are over 30 also as that’s correlated with covid killing you.
Hope that makes more sense.
As for qualifications and medical Fields, are you trying to cancel a conversation? I don’t know about you but two of the posters in this thread made me feel more confident about the testing on older groups but just not the plus 80 age range.
@David Jordan: thanks David.
But that link confirms what I’m saying.
“participants between the ages of 56 and 70 years at the 25-μg dose, which was followed by the ”
They’re not testing the vaccine on those who covid has killed in Ireland, majority are over 80 with underlying conditions.
That’s reality.
I’ve seen zero evidence the vaccine will work in them .
I’m not overly concerned the vaccine won’t be safe in under 55, average age of vaccine trials is 40!
What’s the evidence a mean age of 40 can save a mean age of an 81 year old with underlying conditions from covid.
I’d say none directly.
Indirectly yes.
That’s my issue , the data on who covid killed in Ireland is quite clear. And seeing as that’s the media obsession should the vaccine not be to save these people?
My feeling is the vaccine will and be relatively safe on younger people but I’m not sure if these entire magic bullet of a vaccine for saving lives is going to be proven at all.
That’s what the Stage 3 Trial are not evidence of much to me.
7000 people 55-70 is nothing in comparison to the older population in Ireland alone.
Let’s see what happens then with the real life data.
@Tricia G: the professor now says exactly what I’ve said.
Hmmmn
https://www.rte.ie/player/series/claire-byrne-live-e33/SI0000000325?epguid=IH000383153
@David Jordan: Professor backing up exactly what I’m saying
https://www.rte.ie/player/series/claire-byrne-live-e33/SI0000000325?epguid=IH000383153
@▪️: oh look an actual Professor Saying exactly what I am saying, interesting when you’re backed up by the experts
https://www.rte.ie/player/series/claire-byrne-live-e33/SI0000000325?epguid=IH000383153
Probably like a game of bulldog,, don’t mind getting involved but rather start at the back..
If these vaccines are rolled out for the majority of people next year how will we know the these vaccines have worked – last summer there were few Covid death thus by next winter it’s probably that the vaccine will be less effective…..?
@Joeohah: We’ll know because even after they roll out vaccines to the market they continue to recruit people for randomised controlled trials, so the data will get better and better on how effective they are (or aren’t).
have your say