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LAST UPDATE | 23 Sep 2022
WESTERN NATIONS HAVE dismissed the referendums in Kremlin-controlled regions of eastern Ukraine, as Ukrainian and UN officials revealed what they said was more evidence of Russian “war crimes”.
The voting, on whether Russia should annex these parts of Ukraine into its own territory, opened today, dramatically raising the stakes of Moscow’s seven-month invasion.
Even as polling got under way however, Ukrainian forces said they were clawing back territory from the Moscow-backed separatists in the very lands Russia wants to assimilate.
The votes in the four regions are the latest shock development in a ferocious war that UN investigators said had seen violence – like executions and torture – that amounted to war crimes.
Kyiv’s western allies have dismissed as a sham the referendums in the eastern Donetsk and Lugansk regions, as well as in the southern Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions.
Even China, Russia’s closest ally since the war began, has acknowledged that the “sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries must be respected”.
Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi made the comments to his Ukrainian counterpart Dmytro Kuleba at the UN General Assembly today.
‘Sham’
Authorities in the Russian-controlled regions are going door-to-door for four days to collect votes. Polling stations then open on Tuesday for residents to cast ballots on the final day of voting.
It was also possible to vote at the building in Moscow that represents the Donetsk breakaway region.
Leonid, a 59-year-old military official, told AFP he was “feeling happy”.
“Ultimately, things are moving towards the restoration of the Soviet Union. The referendum is one step towards this,” he said.
“Donbas is Russia” said a post on Telegram by Denis Pushilin, a pro-Russian separatist leader in Donetsk – part of the industrial Donbas region.
But earlier this month, a Ukrainian counter-offensive seized back most of the north-eastern Kharkiv region, bringing hundreds of settlements back under Kyiv’s control after months of Russian occupation.
Today, Kyiv said its forces had made more progress, recapturing a village in the Donetsk region and retaking positions south of the war-scarred town of Bakhmut.
The four regions’ integration into Russia would represent a major escalation of the conflict as Moscow would consider any military move there as an attack on its own territory.
The referendums are reminiscent of Russia’s annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea in 2014 and the referendum there, denounced by Western nations, who imposed sanctions on Moscow as a result.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy denounced the referendums as a “farce”.
Evidence of ‘war crimes’
Today, the G7 Group of Seven industrialised nations also condemned the referendums as a “sham” with “no legal effect or legitimacy”.
But in Donetsk and Lugansk – which Putin recognised as independent just before invading Ukraine in February – residents are answering if they support their “republic’s entry into Russia”, TASS reported.
Ballots in Kherson and Zaporizhzhia ask the question: “Are you in favour of secession from Ukraine, formation of an independent state by the region and its joining the Russian Federation as a subject of the Russian Federation?”
Russian news agencies reported that voting had begun at 5am today, while TASS reported paper ballots would be used to save time.
UN investigators meanwhile said today that war crimes had been committed in the Ukraine conflict, listing Russian bombings of civilian areas, as well as executions, torture and horrific sexual violence.
Erik Mose, who has led a team of investigators set up in March, said they were “struck by the large number of executions”.
In eastern Kharkiv region, Ukrainian officials said today that they had completed their exhumation of 447 bodies from a mass burial site near the city of Izyum.
“Most of them have signs of violent death, and 30 have signs of torture,” said Kharkiv regional governor Oleg Synegubov in a post on social media.
“There are bodies with rope around their necks, with their hands tied, with broken limbs and gunshot wounds,” he added. Izyum was part of the territory recently recaptured from Russian forces.
The Kremlin has denied its forces carried out any large-scale killings in east Ukraine, accusing Kyiv of fabricating evidence.
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What’s the chances of the regions voting to remain in Ukraine?
@DJBERMO: The Russians are coming door to door to collect your vote. What do you think!
@DJBERMO:
Exit polls say 120% in favour with 200% saying Putin is handsome.
@DJBERMO: Somehow I don’t think the No campaign is going to be very vocal or visible.
@David Walters: I know how I’d answer the door and they wouldn’t be coming back again
@Declan Moran: thats big talk declan until they hold you at gun point and attack your daughter.
@DJBERMO: don’t think it’s an option on the ballot. It’s a yes/no question to joining Russia, full stop. Wonder do they actually bother going through the whole farce of counting the votes? Would be embarrassing if the trucks carrying the stuffed ballot boxes from Moscow failed to arrive.
@DJBERMO: you know the story of the two hopes.. bob and no !!
@Sarah Lou: Yes unfortunately Sarah. We all know regardless of the results we’ll all be told the referendas passed in favour. The west needs to tighten the screw and increase military assistance further to Ukraine
@Declan Moran: it’s not them that won’t be coming back again but the UN would probably find your body in a mass grave!
@DJBERMO: 1 person to give you a clipboard, 1 person holding a box to put it into and 2 soldiers holding rifles call to your house. Vote no and you are taken away.
The best exit strategy for Putin would be pretending he lost this fake referendum vote and tell his troops “ ok, we out of here then”
@CarlitosWay: The past tends to be the best estimator of the future, and since Putin has so far only escalated, I’m afraid it’s probably fair to say he will only escalate further, to the point of claiming Russia itself is now under attack after annexation, and detonating a tactical nuclear weapon against Ukrainian forces.
And since we’re being slow-boiled like frogs, we probably won’t see it coming.
The world’s worst voting disaster since Brexit…
Ooh I wonder how the poll will go????
@Alan Duffy: In the 2014 Crimea referendum, people had the choice of answering yes or yes on whether or not to leave Ukraine.
Choice 1: Do you support the reunification of Crimea with Russia with all the rights of the federal subject of the Russian Federation?
Choice 2: Do you support the restoration of the Constitution of the Republic of Crimea in 1992 and the status of the Crimea as part of Ukraine?
Both choices would result in independence.
@David Jordan: Independence? Colonised more like.
If the EU, apologies…. Putin gets the wrong referendum result, will the people of those regions be asked to vote again with assurances. Asking for a friend.
@Colum Cusack: what referendum? Honest question. This is not a referendum.
Sounds like an election that trump can only dream about
@Paul Furey:
Same, in the USA..
The majority of the people of the Donbas region are in favour of leaving the Ukraine Government, Joining the federation was more contested but the Civil War that has been going on the past 8 years has made it more popular as a means of gaining independence.
There is plenty of polls from years ago that show this.
Could the Journal Mods please not delete my comment this time, I only want to learn more about the context of this situation.
I’m no expert here, but the fact that no one stands up for eastern Ukraine’s right to have an independence referendum has been confusing me.
@Tom Fearon: yes, someone has to put in context what Russia is doing, standing up for it’s ethnic people in Sudetenland, if the west could just let Putin have the Sudetenland then he’ll be happy with that and won’t bother invading any other neigbouring countries.
Next on the list, Russia needs land access to its Russian enclave, Koenigsburg/Kalingrad which at the moment is surrounded by parts of Poland and Lithuania. After annexing the Donbas Sudetenland. Russia really should be entitled to annex a corridor through Southern Lithuania and eastern Poland. Then Russia will be happy and not bother anyone else.
The west needs to understand the context of the Russian point of view.
@Diaspora’d: ?? I’m only taking this from the perspective of what the Eastern Ukrainian people want to do.
@Tom Fearon: here’s some context. Russia illegally and brutally invaded a sovereign state. Russia continue to hold these areas through force alone. The sham referenda that are being held for nefarious reasons, are not recognised in international law. The time for such referenda is when Russia has retreated back to it’s internationally recognised borders and Ukraine has stabilised after the horror it is currently enduring.
@Tom Fearon:
If the Russians in Ukraine want to live in Russia so badly, they should feck off to Russia. Not an inch of land should be given up to Russia.
@Donnie Brasco: the majority want independence from Ukraine, not necessary becoming part of the federation, why should they be forced to live under the Kyiv regime?
@DJBERMO: The civil war started after the Ukrainian government refused a referendum in 2014.
The Ukrainian Constitution doesn’t even legally allow independence referendums, according to it, all people of the country should be allowed to vote in one, even those it does not concern.
Do you think I am wrong that the majority of these areas don’t want to be part of the Ukrainian government?
@Tom Fearon: not at all. Independence is precious. We didn’t gain independence from British rule by allowing another nation invade us first?
@Tom Fearon: Tom, did you read the report, specifically the bit about some votes being collected at the door of homes. So Tom answer this honestly, imagine you proudly identify as Ukrainian and you now find yourself living in a Russian occupation. Your trying to keep your head down but a nice official from the Russian federation is so so anxious that you vote he and the fella with the gun won’t leave your door…….. what way would you vote, now answer honestly because if you do answer honestly you have the answer to your own questions
@Tom Fearon: Russia unilaterally annexes Donbas because it claims that’s the will of the people living there BUT under no circumstances does Russia tolerate the right of the people of Ukraine to even consider joining NATO or the EU.
@Terry Brophy: sure I don’t believe this vote, but the majority of the people in eastern Ukraine want an independence that they are denied by this proxy war.
@Diaspora’d: yes the Russian government is bad just like the Ukrainian government, I’m talking about the right of the eastern Ukrainians to self determination of what sort of government they want.
@Tom Fearon: So what your saying, I don’t believe this vote but they’d vote that way anyway, the logic of Kremlin mudguards gets more ludicrous by the day!
@DJBERMO: many of the Ukrainians living there would see the Russians similar to when the French came over to cork to help us fight for independence in the 1700s. Again, all governments are bad but since the majority (in the east) want an independent state closer economically to Russia, I don’t see why they shouldn’t or why we should help Kyiv tyrannically keep control over them.
@Terry Brophy: well I can’t assume they would vote to be part of the federation but yes I believe they would vote for the independence only Russia has recognised so far. I can send links to polls if you don’t believe the majority are in favor of independence.
@Tom Fearon: eh but you said you didn’t trust this vote, are you a bit confused or just tripping yourself up in the rush to defend the undefendable!
@Terry Brophy: it’s actually rather simple to understand mate, their is no reason to trust a wartime vote.
I shouldn’t actually have to explain, I have no sympathy or respect for the Russian government, they are evil like every other government.
This is an old article showing the majority of eastern Ukrainians are in favour of at least independence, A referendum was DENIED by Kyiv, this is how the Civil War broke out, I need you to explain why it is okay.
theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/22/ukraine-families-divided-donetsk-russia
I don’t actually want to be defending Russia here, it is just disheartening that our government would be supporting Kyiv’s tyranny.
@Tom Fearon: theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/22/ukraine-families-divided-donetsk-russia
@Tom Fearon: so Tom if there is a future border poll in Ireland and under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, the majority votes north and south for a united ireland and there’s two counties in the north east considering themselves ulster loyalist and don’t want a United ireland and set up their own unilateral Donbas style separatist referendum then you’d consider Ireland to be tyrannical for preventing them?
@Diaspora’d: every area should have the right to self determination of government wouldn’t you agree? So your saying I assume that the North East wants to vote to become a separate state of Ireland and the UK, I wouldn’t see why they shouldn’t be allowed, after all that’s what democracy is all about.
@Tom Fearon: ..and then when there’s a minority in only one county you say the same can legitimately happen again flagrantly violating an already internationally recognized agreement.
In terms of the Ukraine why is it ok for Russia to facilitate the Donbas and Kherson regions to decide if they want to join Russia but not ok for the people of Ukraine to decide themselves and vote to join the EU and/or NATO?
@Tom Fearon: scooby doo is less confused thsn you
@Diaspora’d: Christ, why would you assume I’m against them doing anything? this is all some one way think that since in against the current narrative therefore I must be pro x and anti y.
I’m JUST saying that the Eastern Ukrainians should be allowed an independence vote. Since our side(ukraine/nato/eu) has not allowed or supported one Russia is filling that hole, that is our fault.
I’ll be clear that Russia is also a bad facilitator.
@Rian Lynch: Are you under the impression that the majority of Eastern Ukrainians are in favour of staying within the current Ukrainian government?
@Tom Fearon: define eastern ukranian? it seems that the only people keen to leave ukraine are coincidentally thise ukranians in areas occupied by russian soldiers. amazing coincidence there
@Tom Fearon: it is by no means clear or definitive that the majority in Donbas actually ever wanted to be annexed by Russia. The number that do is probably decreasing in light of the fiasco Putin has created, more autonomy from Kiev not an annexation by Russia is more likely what the majority want.
@Diaspora’d: being annexed by Russia is definitely in question, It is unfortunate we never supported their right to a referendum on being separate states.
@Tom Fearon: i mean it all happened so quickly didnt it. their desire for independence exploded just after the russian soldiers crossed the border
@Tom Fearon: “leaving the Ukraine Government”?
With the very poor English and grammar I am going for that
1. yes you are no expert
2. Your name is not Tom
@Rian Lynch: the Civil War began after an independence referendum was denied.
@Tom Fearon: ah stop lad that was a farce of a vote from start to finish. no sane person could call it any less
@Tom Fearon: the area in question is Ukraine everything within Ukraine falls under Ukraine rule of law. Ukraine would have to have a law allowing areas within it to secede. The general way it’s done is a majority of people within the Ukraine would have to vote for this rule to be allowed. Typically this is covered by a constitution and constitutions are there to protect the individual/minority from the wishes of the majority giving them “rights” as we call them. There are also Ukrainians that would like to keep living under Ukraine rule in the Donbas or would like to keep going there, trading there etc.
Following your logic, co. Cavan could decide women only belong in the kitchen throw a sham referendum and subject all women in the county to their rule. Despite it being against the constitution of Ireland. Just because they’re the majority in the area.
They are desperate having the referendum without capturing all the land they set out at the start.
What do the exit polls say? That will give us a pointer to the result. I wonder if the result will be close!!!
@Ronnie Smith: probably will be the usual Russian result, 99.9% in favour. Although I recall one Russian town where the number of people who voted to back Putin actually outnumbered the town’s population by 20%!!
@Ronnie Smith: Already agreed at 75% in favour as not to draw suspicion as per leaked information.
And then Putin can start a conscription in Ukraine… and finger Europe.
Thought It was a special military operation? In other words you wanted to invade and take over.
Stop the steal.
There was a joke about elections in African countries at least some of them and it went
There will be a general election in Africa next week and we all know the generals who will be elected
It’s gunna be like fr Ted number 11
Putins days are numbered
Are paddy powers doing odds? I could do with a couple of quid for the weekend.
Good, democracy at work..
@Nicholas Byrne: https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna45049386
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