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STAFF IN SOME Irish nursing homes are having to rely on large, private nutrition firms to provide specialist care to residents and there are concerns that the practice is “not ethically sound”, a new Nursing Homes Ireland report has revealed.
Nursing Homes Ireland (NHI) is the national representative body for the private and voluntary nursing home sector. According to the 2016 Census over 22,000 people are living in over 530 nursing homes in Ireland, the majority of which are not run by the HSE.
Having carried out a focus group in 2022 with directors of nursing from 10 different nursing homes across the country, NHI has stated the Fair Deal Scheme is no longer “fit for purpose”, as staff have serious concerns about residents under the scheme accessing essential primary care, and the effect this is having on their quality of life.
The Fair Deal Scheme (FDS) was introduced in 2009. At the time, as one of the NHI survey responders puts it, the scheme went a long way to solving the “inequity” in the long term residential care system in Ireland.
“Years ago, when there wasn’t a fair deal, families were trying to pay the difference. Like it would be six sons and daughters all trying to make up the money,” the staff member added.
The FDS which is also known as the Nursing Home Support scheme is the State’s statutory funding model to support people to access nursing home care. Through the scheme, older adults pay a portion of the fees for their care (up to 80% of their disposable income), and the HSE pays the rest.
Residents are entitled to bed and board, personal care appropriate to their needs, bedding, a laundry service, and basic aids and appliances necessary for their day-to-day lives.
They are not entitled to social activities, newspapers, therapies, incontinence wear, dry eye and dental services, transport – including care assistant costs, specialised wheelchairs, hairdressing or similar services.
Through the contract of care, residents and their families in many cases end up footing the bill for these activities, services and therapies, even in cases where the resident is also a medical card holder.
Though residents are entitled to several primary care services, NHI says they are aware that many are experiencing real difficulties accessing them due to community services being overstretched. This is leading to nursing home staff calling in private service providers and either passing on the bill to residents and their families or, for some services, seeking free care from large corporate providers.
This free care comes by accessing the services privately, specifically when it comes to securing visits with dieticians, speech and language therapists, and tissue viability nurses. Those providers include large nutrition firms that will see residents free of charge.
The Journal understands that reputable companies are increasingly providing these services and that there is no requirement for nursing home staff to then purchase products from them.
One nursing home staff member did raise concerns about the ethics of this practice, and about the reliance of private and voluntary nursing homes on companies that provide these services, because they are having such difficulty securing them through the HSE, according to the NHI report.
“Access to Physiotherapy, [Occupational therapy, speech and language therapy, and Dietetics] from primary care is almost non-existent,
“We rely on nutritional companies to provide a dietician, a speech and language therapist, and a tissue viability nurse, there is no charge to the resident.
“However, for Physio and occupational therapy services, we have to pass on the charge to the residents as we source them privately,” they said.
The senior nursing home staff member added that it is “impossible” to get tissue viability assessments if a resident is “immobile” and bed bound unless staff enlist private services.
“It’s the same for clinical nutrition unless you use a reputable nutrition supply company. Which really is not ethically sound but people need to access the services.”
“Private nursing home residents are not able to access [these services in the way people are able to in] public nursing homes. This is totally discriminatory as these people did not choose to go into a private facility, they chose whatever bed was available at the time,” the staff member explained.
Another key issue that the NHI report raises is the difficulties nursing homes are experiencing in getting access to GPs for patients.
“Overwhelmingly, the biggest issue identified by respondents was the requirement to pay GPs a retainer fee to provide care to nursing home residents,” the report stated.
“GPs asking for retainer fees, GPs asking nursing homes to transfer residents to another GP as they are too busy to look after residents in nursing homes. It could be days before you hear back from a GP and this is after many follow-up emails and phone calls-sometimes we have to ask families to call also to try to get the GP to respond,” one respondent told NHI.
“GPs are under extreme pressure. Many of them do not have the comfort of having enough time to see referred residents. Very often they are not able to call in if a resident is sick or needs assessment in person. Receiving prescriptions is a long and painful process of sending emails and calling, often, a number of times,” another said.
One senior staff member said that some GPs are reluctant to call out to residents when requested and that some have refused to do three monthly reviews as they are “not governed by HIQA”.
Out of 53 respondents who work in nursing homes across the country, 31 told NHI that they have had to access primary care services on behalf of nursing home residents.
“In addition, some services are provided by medical nutrition companies and in some areas access to therapies is available and within other areas, it isn’t,” the report notes.
A staff member reflecting on the issue which is causing real problems for residents and their families said that at the root of the issue “private homes are being left completely on their own”, and suggested that some may be under the misapprehension that they have “loads of funds”.
Staff members also made suggestions on what should be done to try and remove the obstacles that entitled residents are coming up against when trying to access primary care.
“GPs need to be incentivised to take on Nursing Home Residents. Those in nursing homes will have more complex medical needs, so I feel GPs should have increased compensation to look after these residents” one said.
Another said that residents in private homes are being brought to hospital emergency departments for minor procedures such as having a catheter change.
“Patients in nursing homes are valuable members of our ageing community. If some were at home they would have immediate access to occupational therapy and physio from [community healthcare organisations].
The community does not in practice cover nursing homes. This is an area that should be developed. A Community Liaison team should be in place to prevent as many hospital transfers for minor procedures,” they said.
NHI is calling for a comprehensive overhaul of the FDS. It has also called for GP’s general medical services contracts to be reviewed to take into account the requirements and resourcing of nursing home residents.
Ultimately, it stated that their focus group and survey of NHI members have shown that the majority have had poor experiences of accessing primary care on behalf of residents.
“We live in a society that is ageing but is in denial about all aspects of ageing,” the report concluded, adding “a society that has a poor history of caring for older people, and we are struggling to shake that history”.
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Wait till they start increasing the property and water taxes, that’ll have to come out of your income. They’ll be putting their hand in your backpocket, Death by a thousand cuts!
There are no plans to increase the property tax and water rates. As Brian Hayes has hinted at recently, they’re the last of the main tax reforms to be introduced. Likewise this deal is the last ask from the public sector. Once these measures are through we’re on course to getting our deficit under control and an end to austerity.
David, I object to property tax and water charges because we don’t need them (and so do the majority of Irish). The government needs to cut spending instead of property tax / water charges. Cut government spending and compensate by abolishing property tax and water charges. A low-tax low-spend economy.
Councils will set there own level by a range of +/- 15% in 2015, my guess is it won’t be a minus figure.Once water charges are introduced any number of reasons to raise them will be used.
Jesus David they have ur head rightly twisted if u thinking that be the end off it ..wise up..that shower be outa government by then don’t belive there promises..just wat happened too there promises made before they we’re elected
@David:
“no plans”
“hinted at”
All been heard before…..
David you must really have your head in the clouds if you think property charges won’t increase, once there in the will go up regularly.. we will be robbed that bit more for having a roof over our head every year. Look at them pilling tax in fuel, the single item that will effect the cost of everything in the economy.. They don’t care how much blood they spill getting their pound of flesh .
No David is a politician in training. Hes on here to practice how to bull$**t, lie and spread disinformation like the multimillionaire sociopaths we have in the Dail.
So we’re supposed to believe anything Howlin is saying?
This after they reneged on the Croke Park Deal which is not due to end for another year? This is after all the other broken fcken promises?
Lets face it your crowd of muppets would have tried to cut the bejazuz out of the public service in good times, good little thatcherite tory wannabes that you are – theyre just using these bad time to push through their selfish evil agenda.
Now would you believe a word from these liars mouths, not one red cent was to be paid back to anglo, 5 point plan 100,000 jobs my arse, the water will be privatized like everything else. This country is easy pickings for outside interests. They crippled us with cheap money now its hand over the keys time
Ha ha ha ha ha…. You sound like you actually believe that! Jeez you just lap up the government propaganda hook line and sinker don’t you, like the government and the other rightwingers you obviously have no clue of the real causes or the sheer depth of this crisis, if you think 1 that austerity will actually get us out of this mess and 2 that they is likely to be soon than you truely are deluded. The eurozone crisis will take another nose dive having huge implications for Ireland and the government will act all shocked and say things like no-one saw it coming etc than what more austerity and pay cuts because they don’t have the balls to do what’s really necessary ad it would involve going against the EU elite
The ‘last ask’ until the next time!!
How do you know a politician is lying??
The dirty rats lips are moving!!!
Just so we’re absolutely clear on what David Higgins is actually saying.
There will be no increase in property tax in 2014. There is no commitment whatsoever after 2014 and there is provision in the legislation for local authorities to vary the amount of tax charged from 2015 onwards.
So David, you are, to say the least, spoofing!
Facism does not have to look like Hitlers Germany anymore.
Reginald, u don’t want to pay water or property tax? But u said the country is broke… Are u now saying ” let someone else pay???” Thought you were all for taxing and cutting…,
If you believe what politicians tell you, I have a bridge I’d like to sell you.
I am somewhat sceptical of any promise given by Government at the moment.
How could you trust anybody in the Dail, der all two faced, tell us one thing one week and do the opposite the following week
Sorry Mr Howlin…”Swallow”….I would rather spit thank you!!
Classic ^^^
Boo
Public sector workers are entitled to annual wage increases, and, (in Teachers cases) approx three months of vacation each year. That’s in addition to paid sick days, emergency leave days, and paid personal days, curiously.
Not to mention every holiday is paid and off. You are supposedly paid over time if you work on the weekend (whatever happened to time and a half?)
You know, I don’t blame the unions for these sweetheart deals.
I blame those that sign the contracts. Union members are there to get the best deal possible. Politicians seem to not be able to say no.
It reminds me of the screaming 5 year old in the candy aisle. Do I blame the child for asking for chocolate? or shall I blame the parent for purchasing?
A Reginald, cutting and pasting your comments now… You really are a teoll
Troll.. Spellcheck
I agree Nocturnal …A bit like Travellion’s Corn !
Howlin says this is the last ask next time the economy will have improved firstly Brendan you and your party have broken every election promise you made the present agreement still has a year to run so clearly you have no word and more importantly this deal takes another billion out of the domestic economy which is presently at a standstill therefore no recovery fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me vote no
Is there going to be anything written into this agreement saying there wont be Croke Park 3 in 2015?
Actually, I’m guessing the productive sector will benefit by this reform otherwise taxes would simply be passed onto private sector workers. Public sector pay is still largely in deficit because the country is spending money it doesn’t really have. At least that’s the conclusion many economists have come to.
Howlin started out yesterday by 1. Firstly blaming the previous shower for the state of the country they inherited.(you knew what was coming wasn’t good) 2. This is a very complicated . The condescending yoke,( no one except a union head earning half a mil plus could understand it ). And the biggest lie of all 3. it dose not targate frontline services. Even poorly paid nobody’s on the front line can see it clearly targates them, Mr howlin , minister, sir, god bless ya, thanks.
But Gerry, the last administration were throwing out money in the form of tax breaks, wage increases etc all to garner votes all through the Celtic Tiger years. It IS their fault that we now have to reign in all this extra money that we shouldn’t have been getting in the first instance. Of course the problem now is that inflation rose with the wage increases, so that cutting back on the wages now means that we can’t afford things that used to be a lot cheaper, like 50 inch plasma TVs, playstations, lazyboy recliner chairs, conservatories, 4x4WD SUVs, super-deluxe baby buggies, massive fridges, ride-on lawnmowers, designer baby clothes (seriously?), iphones for our schoolkids and now iPads too…
Mark this just takes money out of people pockets nobody on less than 40k has any savings so that20 € cut for every Sunday worked is 20€ less spent in local shops how many jobs that going to cost
Ah yes my friend , but the have’ s will still have all those luxuries , while the ordinary worker is plunged back into the ‘have not’ era of 1950′s Ireland , Ast it should be in many people’s minds, maybe even yours..
The last ask!!….In fairness Howlin is right because himself & Labour Party will be gone before this new agreement if voted in lasts til 2016.
And replaced with who? Another party that imposes reforms on public sector pay?!
I’d settle for reforms on public sector, leave my pay alone until you fix the system, then target pay all you like.
It’s still a bit rich quite frankly, how the hell does Howlin know for sure what the economy will be doing in 5 years? Definitely the “last ask” my arse, it’s all guesswork.
As much as Labour have let us down, and I am disgusted, Fg would have been a lot harsher left alone.
As for Ff, they cut disability during the better times!
Be careful what you wish for.
Mark – you often get asked but I’ve never seen you answer….
Who do you propose? Or is it anarchy you propose?
FF cut disability,FG/Lab cut Child Allowance,respite care grant i could go on but whats the point.The only difference between these 3 parties are their names.
Shayne, I don’t think cutting disability was Ffs downfall, more the throwing cash at people and more than doubling state welfare payments.. half the reason we’re in the sh!t now.
Government employees were given raises in most cases during the boom years.
I’m not suggesting that. I’m merely pointing out that if Ff justified cutting disability when things were good what do you think they would have done this year..
Frontline workers were not and yet now they are being asked to contribute the most, again how is this fair?
FF FG LAB are all in bed with the banks and bondholders in fact they are the bond.holders
Regonald you seem to be “trolling” every article on the public sector, this is not a public v private forum.
Shes not trolling particularly well either.
Oh, please!!! Government employees were given raises before to make up for the freeze. How is making more than a private sector job a step in the right direction? My pay has been frozen for 3 years — how is the government pay freeze good compared to mine?
Aren’t you self employed Regeonald? Is that not the risk that comes with being self employed? Were you not aware of such well known risks when you chose your employment? When the economy does eventually recover will you not be one of the first to benefit from it as I am sure you did in the Celtic Tiger era? Surely if you think the public sector have it so easy whilst you have it so hard you should consider a change of employment?
Your pay Regonald? Welfare does not count as pay.
“Government employees were given raises before to make up for the freeze.”
Must have missed that one reg, when did that happen?
Ahhh regonald…just gonna call ya reggie, ya certainly do seem to be trollin on all these public pay cuts.. so, your saying your pay has been frozen for 3 years??? That does differ from been ‘cut’ and getting more cuts all the time, reduction in overtime, etc…
Head away there to another forum like a good lad.
Regonald did you or did you not say in another post that your pay had taken ‘cuts’ in the last three years? Now you say you it was a freeze. Which is it? You must be the most annoying attention seeking troll on this site. Never a constructive comment from you and never a comment on any other issue.
Looks like poor auld Reggie’s brain has been frozen for the last three years also.
Creatur!
Maybe Regonald’s pay has been frozen/cut due to him doing no other work than trolling!!
“We promise this will be the last ask…” Sure…. and il be riding to work on my magic unicorn tonight!
After retirement from my city, a 60 year-old firefighter gets a pension and health benefits for the rest of his days. If he chooses to marry before his death – even at 86 years old, his new “wifey” will curiously continue to receive lifetime health benefits and a pension long after he’s gone.
More cutting and pasting there regonald
It’s irresponsible of Howlin to be telling Public Servants this will be the “last ask”. An Irish recovery is contingent on so many external factors he can’t guarantee that.
If the deficit is lowered, it has to be positive on the public purse.
Theres numerous ways to lower the deficit without taking money off people who spend every penny in the domestic economy. We are putting our recovery more at risk by doing so.
Those worst hit are the men and women of the public service who look after society when it is at its most vunerable and this is being cheered on by some. Shame on ye.
A recent survey between the Republic and the six counties on a government worker revealed our pay levels were “complicated” and more “expensive” than up north.
Whats the cost of living up North like Reg,you know tax,food etc.
Their cost is actually MORE compared to here, overall.
Go live there then…
Poor Enda has his wages cut by 15K.. My heart bleeds for him :-(
He will claim it back in expenses
After all our ours striking a few years ago to be recognised as equal to therapeutic grades within the health service, we have it taken away. Nurses are always going to be seen as skivvies. Now we have to work Christmas day etc without the incentive of double pay, why bother?
Lucky to have a job, to be urinated on, shouted at, called unrepeatable names etc etc.
Where is the equity when new Nurses are on less than existing Nurses? How is that fair?
Yeah, reg, because we can tell from your other posts that you’re all about fairness for the nurses.
Doesnt seem like a bad deal, could see a few of the lower paid civil and public servants chuckle at the boss men and women getting a just and fair cut.
They’ll be laughing at the frontliners too (albeit for getting shafted… Yet again).
But it’s not a fair cut, I’m at the lower end of the spectrum and will probably take more of a cut than them. I’ll certainly feel it more anyway
Why not abolish public sector increments also.
People at the bottom wrungs of the sector will not be bothered by the bosses taking a hit (well deserved) I sincerely doubt any of those will laugh at the front liners taking a hit….seeing as the bottom end are the front liners doc.
If your 65 grand your not at the bottom end of anything, 22 grand is the bottom, and if u are there you are not being cut, save for sunday premium pay.
It’s a terrible deal for anyone on shift work. The more you look at it you discover your even more screwed. Extra hour here, less for staying on when you can’t go, a lump payment or lose holidays and no incentive to come and cover a shift when needed too because once you paid nearly 67% of it back is it really worth losing what little quality family time we have.
Nurses fought hard for similar hours to others in the public service, this deal keeps the difference in hours, 39 hrs for all would be fairer, if that’s the way you want to go
I am one of those nowhere near 65,000 and yes we are loosing out. Unsocialable hours gone, Sunday premium cut, increments frozen, longer working week for no extra means reduction in hourly rate. Waiting for the fine print to see is there stipulations I’m night duty allowance. Overtime rates cut for which I have to do when it’s available it already only makes a minor but required difference to my pay.
@Paul… Sunday increments… twilight hours… An extra 1.5hrs/wk for nurses (For most it’ll be 1.5hrs less overtime, as most go above their contracted hours)… An 5hrs/wk for NCHD’s (For most it’ll be 5hrs less overtime, as most go above their contracted hours)… It’s very fair altogether… Very fair…
We have a Public/Private sector divide which has been encouraged by vested interests, now it appears a divide is being developed in the Public sector.Divide and conquer works everytime.
It’s neither such or fair when some staff how earn 38000 ate taking a 8% cut in there take home pay and somebody on 75000 taking 5.5%
Jenny there was always going to be a split in the public sector. The frontline shift workers are taking the brunt of the hit whilst the 9 to 5 workers are mostly unaffected. Two sets of public sector workers looking for two different outcomes. A split was inevitable. Of course the 9 to 5ers are going to be in favour of Sunday cuts and twilight payment cuts which is part of shift workers core pay. I’m in favour of teachers working an extra month a year, would they back me on that? Not a hope!!!
My point is the split is being encouraged,if your fighting with each other the unions who sold ye out along with the government get to sit back and watch.
Not all of the public sector can be represented by unions, the Gardai can’t even get involved in the talks relating to their pay!!!! Farcical
Troll
Guards will take 8% cut so will nurses with nights cut. This in not a fair deal
The bottom end is being hit, albeit indirectly through increased working hours and reduced annual leave. Those at the top of lower grade payscales are being hit more because their salaries are being cut. Remember those at the bottom end of the public service didn’t get any of the perks and bonuses that abounded in the private sector during the Celtic Tiger. There are no under the table payments in the public sector either, not now nor during the Celtic Tiger.
Why not just get rid of the public sector altogether or make it a Voluntary Service…… Reggie…..the work they do isnt very important by the sounds of ur comments anyway !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why dont u enlighten us all Reggie & tell us what ur PRIVATE sector job is??? Ur staying very quiet on that one.
Wasting your time bex. The lad is unemployed. Might get a job in the next Hobbit movie as the worlds biggest troll!!! Gripping stuff, just make sure he has a few anti public sector lines in it. Harry price can be his right hand man…whoops!
It is a very bad deal Paul. Working an extra 4 hours a week for no pay, if you have kids this will increase childcare costs. The only option is to vote against this unfair proposal.
A friend of mine who is a co-manager in a River Island clothes store is on more than my partner who is a guard? And shes getting a pay rise in march. While he gets another paycut? And has anyone noticed a starting salary for a teacher is 31,000 and for a nurse it’s 21,679? Why are teachers way more valued than nurses? There both 4 year degree’s.
The private sector is free to pay people whatever they want. What are you advocating?
In my previous private sector job – after earning a Diploma and Degree in the same field – I had worked my way up to the heady heights of 21k two years later. Plenty of similarly qualified people at the same workplace worked unpaid internships with no guarantee of an eventual job offering.
Did I “deserve” to earn more money than 21k because of my qualifications in a skilled role? Of course not; the employer set the salary based on supply and demand and based on his or her own means. I signed the contract, did the job and I eventually found a better paying opportunity.
I’m sure your Garda partner is more qualified in their role and works a lot harder than your friend but you just can’t compare (or advocate change, which would be hoping for a centrally planned economy) private and public salaries like for like as the very definition of the former – private – implies that it’s none of the government’s business.
31000 before tax, pension and all the other money taken out = over 30%. Then there is the fact that there is no permanent contracts been given so actually no new teacher is on that wage. Stop believing spin and read for yourself.
Yeesh, why the hostility Karolyn? There was nothing remotely personal or insulting in what I posted to you.
I’m not “crying” to you either; I was using my own experience to point out that in the private sector your pay will always be based on your employer’s means and the supply and demand in that sector – not simply qualifications, respective contribution to society or how hard you work in comparison to other industries.
Your partner’s employer – the govt – is having to cut costs and your friend’s employer – private enterprise – isn’t. That’s why one is earning more than the other.
people wake up they are trying to divide us public v private its us v them and their bonholders and banker buddies we as a nation are under attack .
Uncalled for attack there really. Emmet really wasn’t having a go he was just stating fact. Didn’t hold you up in the greatest of lights.
New teachers and new nurses are actually exactly equal when it comes to pay. They are also pretty equal in employment opportunities. One can’t get a job and the other can’t touch the job.
In the end though Dermot is correct.
Ever think of counselling?
When will Irish people campaign for a 50% reduction in all politicians salaries and expenses?
Perhaps then we MIGHT accept the sickening medicine they prescribe for us!
Shame on howlin / Gilmore et al . this attack on shift workers will never be forgotten .
Did minister howlin not say that croke park 1 was the last and public sector workers should not bear the brunt again?? As they had already contributed!!
@reginald, the current deals brings pay rates back to 2002 levels, when the public sector had extreme difficulty in recruiting to any of the lower grades. If you factor inflation, it goes back further. It may be valid to retrench the pay increases given in the boom years .. But in your opinion what level should it go back to? Avg industrial wage was 28 k in 2002 and is now 41 k. So if avg industrial wage is up 30% and public sector pay is up 0%’, how much further do you think the reductions go?
I think this debate might be of greater use if we were to look at solutions. If we apply supply and demand principles of a market economy, we see currently a huge rise in demand for public services, yet an unwillingness and inability to pay under the current pricing structure. In a market economy the services would simply not be delivered in this context, ie pricing high does not reduce demand. So back to cutting operating costs or cutting service. What do you recommend for public services? Which services would you cease when we get to the bottom of the operating costs and still can’t afford them?
That is the most accurate post I have seen in a while.
Public servants have to pay their share just like the rest of society! Don’t make me laugh howlin . How much have you and your cronies paid to get us out of this hell ??? Do i have to remind you cutting the wage of someone with a miserable wage doing a risky, dangerous, thankless job to the point they can’t even pay their mortgages or feed their children is not the same as makin an overpaid desk jockey on over 100grand a year take a tiny reduction in their ridiculous wage. Why in this day is it acceptable for high ranking officials from all sections of the public service to get more the 100-150-200k a year. Its amazing that the socio economic band that politicians fall into never get hit!! Hit the frontline! Why not? They’ll always be there for ye when ye need them.
It will be the last ask until the budget until they raise another tax or make up a new on and the public sector get hit with that aswell!
Compared to Greece (where public sector pay was cut by up to 60%), I fail to buy your argument.
Man we are not in Greece ! We do not live in Greece , if you want to go to go to Greece by all means please go !
Such comparisons cannot be made until you state what they earned prior to such cuts in comparison to their cost of living and then do the same math in relation to Ireland
“Compared to Greece…..”
Love how the apologists for this government love to compare Ireland to Greece, until we mention that Greece got a writeoff of its debt, debt that was actually incurred by the sovereign. Then its all ‘YOU CAN’T COMPARE IRELAND TO GREECE…TOTALLY DIFFERENT…..BLAH BLAH BLAH”
Reggae, in 2010 the OECD published report stating that in ireland the cost of public sector pay was 11.2% of GNP… The euro average is…. Wait for it… A whopping 11.1%…
Hardly paid over the odds then are we?
Facts reggie, facts :)
So tax increases should only apply to private sector employees – whose taxes fund the public sector?
The ‘last ask’ eh, we’ve never heard that one before! This agreement was to run until June 2014, nothing has stopped the government changing this in 2013, likewise nothing will stop them adding more cuts before 2016, this agreement is not worth the paper it is wrote on, the government have shown they can change it whenever they want and if we don’t agree they will legislate for the change. Minister Howlin is delusional if he believes this is a ‘fair and equitable’ agreement, I agree the public pay needs to be cut, I understand that we are spending more than we are taking in and this cannot continue, however what I do not understand is why frontline workers are being asked to contribute significantly more than admin staff or those who work 9-5, how is it fair to ask the minority of public sector workers to contribute more than others simply because they work unsociable hours???? I for one do not believe or trust one word any member of government says, they are proven liars and will cut wages again if and when they see fit regardless of any agreement in place
Whether or not its the intention of government to divide with croke park or not this will split the 9-5 from shift workers and you will see the frontline fight vigorously against this. All my colleagues in this area are furious with SIPTU and I have never seen us as a group so militant with100% believing this is heading for a picket line. You think this agreement is viable, it’s not and the union and government need to go back and talk.
@ David Higgins
Your quite obviously a government spokesperson with comment that biased
Worse. He’s a member of young fine gael, who proudly used to parade a photo of himself and dame edna kenny as his avatar. Stick around, you see him valiantly excuse every shameful act of imorality and criminality by the grown ups in his beloved party.
And the dust won’t have settled on this latest guillotine when the lenders will fire up the interest rates for those of us already struggling with mortgage repayments. Acreage
Carnage even
Is everybody on here earning over €65,000 or am I missing something??
Fair enough it makes it look like Tds take a hit in this but it isn’t enough. They will just add on to there oversized expensive add a few miles onto the travel expenses for getting to work maybe wash their own clothes and bag their 2000 a year laundry allowance an live off their 16000 public figure allowance on top of around 100000 for td and 180000 for a minister.
Michaelcollinsghost – Anybody who makes broad, sweeping generalisations about public servants, in general, obviously doesn’t know what he/she is talking about. The clap trap that you spew continually regarding public servants only serves to magnify your ignorance.
I am a public servant and proud to be one, I work hard at my job like most other people in life. I know plenty of people who work in the private sector, friends and family, who haven’t taken a pay cut since the recession started, who have had bonuses paid annually, who have had increments paid also. However, unlike you, I don’t make the same assumptions and generalisations that you and your ilk do by being of the impression that everybody in the private sector is coining it.
It is glaringly obvious that people in this country have suffered a great deal. People that you claim were shouting and roaring in Tallaght, were merely exercising their democratic right to protest. The tory boy politics that you espouse to got us into this mess in the first place. These people are damn right to let their feelings be known. Your arguments are just rhetoric, your logic flawed.
Taking more money out of people’s pockets won’t bring about a recovery. You can’t cut your way out of a recession. Look at every main street in the country, shops closing everywhere. People aren’t spending because they don’t have the money, simple fact.
Personal responsibility? Ever been to a hospital? I have and the care? Professional all the way.
Conor – you’re friends in the private sector are very lucky. I too have friends in the private sector, some working for multi-nationals. Some have had pay cuts, most have had pay freezes and I’ve heard of no bonuses or pay increases. I can also say, that in many areas, the salaries being applied to new roles are substantially less than they were 5 or 6 years ago.
I have no comment really about the public sector though I did work in it myself a few years ago. I’m sure most there are moderately paid and do an honest day’s work for their salary. The only thing that strikes me as absurd – given that their employer is broke and on an EU/IMF life line – is that increments are being paid!! If a private sector employer was in the same predicament they would probably not be operating and they certainly wouldn’t be reviewing salaries in an upward direction – which is essentially what an increment is.
Why do people keep inferring that increments have been lost, its a three month freeze under 35k or two three month freezes over 35k < 65k, over 65 k is three year freeze. This is a fair compromise.
It’s moving it back three months. What happens if someone has agreed to pay more off a loan/mortgage based on this expected increment?
Over the course of your career, you will lose out on several years increments, this is just a wrapped up version of the truth to make it seem like you’re not, after four years by right you should be on a fifth increment, however by delaying the increment every three months it is due you will be only getting four, if you do this over 30 years you will be getting increments suitable for 24 years losing out on 6 years which is quite substantial plus the Celtic Tiger showed us that once the economy does recover the public sector will be the very last to benefit and see a small part of these cuts restored and that will only be after fighting a hard fight to get them and by that stage we will be back on a downturn, once these cuts are in they will never be reversed unlike what happens in the private sector
The increments automatically go back to 12 month periods at the end pt the deal so saying you will lose 6 over 30 years is scaremongering. And increments are linked to PMDS so are not garaunteed in the normal course anyway. If you have renegotiated then it means your bank thinks the your mortgage/loan os viable and will be willing to negotiate again when you make them aware of the circumstances
I haven’t seen the Croke Park II Agreement, only going by what I have read in the media and I have not seen that it was agreed that the freeze on increments was only to last the time of the agreement, I in no way intend to scare monger as I know firsthand the effect of the pressure of these cuts are having on people, it is merely my interpretation of how increment freezes will be used to save money. As I’ve previously stated I do not believe a word the government says so I am very hesitant to believe that these increment freezes will be reversed
If you do not wish to scaremonger, you should not post such comments on a public forum when you do not have the facts. (Which you admit you do not). Whether the Government is to be believed or not foes not change the details of the agreement. Obviously there are some sections of the civil service this will affect more than others but considering that some €400m is to be saved from high earners, this appears to be fair. That is a small group of people contributing a large portion of the savings. And yes I am a civil servant, with a mortgage. And no im not a high earner so I will feel the pinch too but an across the board cut would be much more unfair on the lower scale workers.
Have you seen the Croke Park II Agreement in full yourself Simon? If not you also do not have all the facts. I was simply showing how such savings are being made regardless of whether this ends at the end of the agreement, it will still have a significant impact long term, for everyone. Those on the higher end will lose 3 increments which they will never see again, this in turn will effect the pension they will be entitled to. Those on the mid scale will lose out on 2 increments during the course of the agreement which will once again effect pensions, 1 increment for low scale will again effect pension. If you factor in the cuts to allowances on top and cuts to overtime this will also have an adverse effect on the pension recieved. Whilst you may be a civil servant you clearly are not in the minority who work shiftwork because if you were you would not agree that the increment freeze is a good compromise when you factor in all the other cuts and the effect that these will have on your pension in the end. Just because I am not downplaying the reality does not mean I am scaremongering
While I have not seen it, I have received a briefing note from my union which outlined a number of the conditions. Why are you still persisting with the myth that increments will be lost? It is true that those over 65,000 will lose three increments, however everyone else will not. Their increments are merely deferred for three months. This is NOT losing an increment. As such the only pensions affected will be those over €65k. (An extra 3/6 month period will have been worked for the same pension as previously would have been obtained). Your understanding of how this works appears to be slightly flawed. Due to the nature of my job I shall keep my opinions on allowances to myself.
How can you say increments wont be lost if you delay said increments every three months for the term of the agreement you will lose one increment, it’s simple math and to say otherwise is a myth spun by people who just want this agreement. It’s people such as yourself you are willing to accept an agreement being changed after you have complied with it and before it is due for review that are the reason the government keep coming back for more. Your opinion on allowances does not interest me in the slightest although however which way you argue it those doing shiftwork will pay more than those who are not and whilst a cross the board cut is not fair neither is this
Do you honestly think before you write? You do not lose an increment, it is just delayed, you will still get that increment, just three months later than you would have. I digress, this is like banging my head off a wall. Please have your union rep explain the details to you before you vote.
So Howlin is being a bully again.
How can it be a fair deal when those that have no choice but to work unsociable hours lose more than those who only ever work 9 to 5 monday to friday, Meanwhile most TD,S are still claiming 60 grand a year unvouched and TAX FREE expenses on top of there 92.000 euro wage !
Yeah yeah minister, just like CP1 was supposed to run its course without the public service being asked to give more.
Cue pat rabitte saying “Sure isn’t that the kind of thing you say during a “
Howlin don’t believe you
You spoke similar hollow words last time
“The last ask”…just like last time…
A last ask, ie., no compulsory reduncancies. The private sector would give an arm and a leg – if it had any – for such a deal.
If we “won’t be coming back again”, how in the name of all that is serious are we going to deal with the 13 billion a year of the deficit that we are STILL borrowing just to keep the lights on in this country? Is none of that 13 billion going towards the highest overhead that this country has, which is the annual public sector pay bill?
One thing I’ve noticed in this country now is the inherently venomous nature of our public sector community, they have acted like a congregation of thugs in this debate, selfishly refusing to listen to any opinion but their own, shouting and roaring up in Tallaght that they are on their knees, they have not the slightest idea what actual hardship is, they have largely been completely protected from it, what the majority of them need is a fortnight in the private sector to soften their coughs. Yearly automatic increments still not tied to any reasonable demonstration of performance, still no compulsory redundancies, these things are but a distant memory in the private sector.
As for overtime, don’t get me started, as a self employed person I worked approximately 80 hours last week, 20 of which were on Saturday and Sunday, for a 30K a year salary and I’m furious that people who will never in their entire careers have to take personal responsibility for anything in their job, are still on a trajectory for completely unrealistic Celtic Tiger 60K/70K a year legacy salaries and upwards, on the back of automatic progression through a grade system or automatic increments.
The unions of this country have miscalculated the degree to which there is no public support whatsoever ever for strikes, the government should have imposed much harsher pay cuts and let them strike. You try asking for the support of people who could only wish that they had a fraction of the protection that those who are living under Croke Park I and II can now enjoy.
And as for “we won’t be coming back here again”, until someone can explain to me how we are going to get our deficit of 13 billion a year down to practically zero, which we have committed to doing under the fiscal compact treaty, I doubt very much that there will not be more cuts in PS pay and that we can still run our affairs in absolute blind ignorance as to how the global labour market now operates in terms of competitiveness.
Bahahahahaha! Have ya anymore good jokes??
Not one clue have you got about what your talking about!
@DavidDonnelly David can you back that up? In what respect do I not know what I’m talking about? This is the problem with you guys and the despicable rudeness that we are now seeing from those in the public sector, anyone who disagrees with you, you try to ridicule. Back up what you are saying or maybe don’t make a comment at all if the horse shít below is the standard of the argument that you can bring to the discussion.
‘Protected’ ‘do not know what hardship is’ ‘do not have to take personal responsibility’ what world are you living in???? Do you have any clue what the public sector actually do? Do you have any clue how many have lost/are facing losing their homes because of the ‘protection’ they have already recieved? Have you any clue how much their incomes were ignored during the boom whilst yours went through the roof and how they’ll be ignored once again when recovery eventually happens whilst you will benefit immensely? If you’re going to comment on something at least have the decency to know what you’re talking about and then some will engage in an intelligent debate. Telling nurses, doctors, paramedics, Gardai and firefighters that they do not have any personal responsibility is idiocy at best, pure ignorance at worst.
with all the new taxes levys and charges, 50k is the new 30k.
If Howlin says it’s the ‘last ask’ be assured, be very assured, it’s bs! Especially, as he will do what he’s told by troika as he hasn’t the balls to go out and do what needs to be done himself! He and his party have become political eunuchs and are of no benefit to this country or it’s people.
The recurring theme on this page seems to be that 65K is now some sort of a minimum salary when it comes to who gets their salary cut or who doesn’t.. Do you realise how utterly perverse that sounds to someone like myself in the private sector?
@MarthaKing, Martha my income never went through the roof, the maximum I earned in all my employment was 39K in a PAYE job and that was while working every hour that God sent, of overtime I could get my hands on! I’ve taken a 9K paycut from those days, and am now in self employment earning 30K, that is if my business stays open. The ability of the business to stay open rests on my shoulders, nobody elses, there is no Croke Park Agreement there securing my income, providing a floor beneath which I cannot fall, there are no automatic annual pay increases as I move though the pay grade (there is no pay grade, nor are there the funds to pay a pay increase!), there is no clock on my wall that adds up the overtime at time and a half or double time and then pays it to me, once I go over my 40 hour week!
Anyone on 40K or 50K with a guaranteed job for life in this country at the moment genuinely has a lot to be grateful for. That’s how people in the private sector in well paid jobs are looking at their positions and I can’t for the life of me understand how people in the public sector are turning their noses up art these kind of salaries.
@MarthaKing, Martha can you explain how people on 65K a year salaries can’t pay their bills? The only explanation for that in my view, can be that they got involved in property and bought at the wrong time when prices were artificially high, that is a separate problem that needs to be sorted out separately via dealing with their bank and coming up with something more workable in terms of the repayments, etc, just like people in the private sector have to do. This is why we recapitalised the banks, to write down debt and adjust mortgages, people in the private sector have to face up to this, why should people in the public sector be protected from this process via a series of protectionist pay agreements that this country simply cannot afford to be a subscriber to?
People on 65k are not the ones I am talking about and are not the only ones who will be effected with pay cuts, try looking at the frontline workers or the hospital porter who works night all on the lower end of the pay scale and all looking at approx 8% paycut. I will refrain from commenting on your ‘horseshit’ comment as it just highlights your intelligence levels
What is an “increment?” is this the pay increases that public sector workers get, for how long they have worked, regardless whether they are productive or not?
They said that about the current Croke Park agreement which was to until 2014! Doubt they’ll keep their word
As the residents of Rockridge would say
“BULL$HIT”
The “last ask”? If you believe that you’ll believe anything.
Why can’t people use “your/you’re ” and “they’re/ their/ there correctly? Hmm it’s no mystery why most of you are low paid public servants. Should have paid more attention at school.
If you’re going to correct people and make snide remarks while doing so, make sure you don’t make any mistakes yourself. It just makes you look silly.
You forgot to close your second set of double quotes.
Predictive text would be to blame rather than education, one would imagine
It may well be the “last ask” – if there is a next time it will be due to a lack of economic recovery and the cuts will be imposed.
Global economy depending.
have your say