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Assisted Dying: TDs admit 'steep learning curve' and moral struggles as Committee finally meets

One TD questioned why someone who has ‘ten years instead of ten months left’ should be excluded if their life has become unbearable.

IN ITS FIRST meeting, the Oireachta Committee on Assisted Dying grappled with whether people should be able to access any service on the grounds of disability alone, with TDs and senators taking diverging initial views. 

Sinead Gibney, the Chief Commissioner of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (IHREC), who appeared in front of the committee today, told members that one of the key safeguards that should be considered is the exclusion of disability as grounds for assisted dying care. 

The first public meeting of the meeting took place almost three years after the Dying with Dignity Bill passed through the Dáil. 

IHREC’s Head of Legal Michael O’Neill clarified that the commission is recommending the exclusion of disability as the “sole reason” for someone accessing any future assisted dying service, but that this should not stop people who are “coming to the end of [their] life due to a disability” from accessing that service. 

“The fact that a person is old or disabled should not in and of itself be the reason,” he added. 

Gibney added that there should be, in the view of “reasonable medical judgement”, a high probability that a person will die within a set timeframe to be eligible for any assisted dying services. 

She clarified that IHREC does not at present have a position on whether legislation should be changed around assisted dying or not as of yet. 

Gibney also advised that lawmakers will have to develop safeguards that will protect at-risk groups who could be targeted by people who would stand to benefit through their death, and could take advantage of “loopholes” in future legislation. 

She added that people who may consider opting for any future assisted dying service must also have access to alternatives, including up-to-standard palliative care. 

Rachel Woods, the Assistant Secretary to the Department of Justice told the committee that suicide was decriminalised in 1993, but the the offence for a person to aid an attempt at suicide by another person was retained, “given perceived dangers in its abolition”. 

Woods said that clarification of the law was given in the judgement made in the 2013 Supreme Court case of Marie Fleming, a woman who had multiple sclerosis and campaigned to get orders allowing her to have a lawful, peaceful, and dignified assisted death at the time of her choosing without anyone being prosecuted as a result. 

She noted that while the Supreme Court called the case “tragic”, they ultimately ruled that there is no constitutional right to arrange for the ending of one’s life at a time of one’s choosing. 

“The Court clarified that its judgement did not prohibit the Oireachtas from legislating for assisted suicide, assuming appropriate safeguards could be introduced,” Woods added. 

Senator Lynn Ruane questioned the moral basis of the exclusion of disability as a sole reason for eligibility for assisted dying. 

“Are we putting forward ideas on the rights of disabled people but then diluting those rights?” she asked. 

What do we mean by coming towards the end of life? If we are measuring it against how long you have left to live, we may have someone with an acquired disability who has ten years, and has explored their options. 

“Maybe disability alone is the reason why some people want to die. Do we risk preventing them from engaging in their right to make a decision, because they have ten years rather than ten months?” she said. 

In reply, Gibney said that in many cases “having a disability isn’t the issue alone” for people. “It’s society and not being able to participate fully,” she added. 

Gibney then put forward that it is helpful to “extend the concept of coercive control” to consider how, through a lack of services and access to care, education, transport and facilities, society as a whole can be “coercing people into having a life that is unpleasant”. 

Protecting people from being coerced or manipulated into assisted dying by those who may stand to benefit from them doing so is one of the safeguarding challenges being considered by the committee. 

Weighing in on the debate, Gino Kenny TD said that while the committee must consider how best to protect people’s right to life, he also believes that people should have a “fundamental right to have a say over your life. ”

“If one of the fundamental thoughts in their head is on how their life is going to end, if assisted dying was there, they would at least have a choice,” he added. 

Kenny said that in other countries where assisted dying has been legislated for, “the evidence is just not there” that “people have been coerced”. 

Senator Mary Seery Kearney said that she has concerns that introducing assisted dying will mean that “we arrive at a stage where people will be afraid to complain of their suffering”. 

She elaborated that she fears that assisted dying will be suggested as an option for people in this situation. 

“How would that right be advertised to people? Are they given a leaflet if they are told they have six months left, as we cannot assume they know about it, but the fact of that information, is that itself a trigger?” 

“By having the conversation alone, is that making a statement on the value of life for those people?” Kearney questioned. 

Assistant General Secretary in the Department of Justice, Rachel Woods, said that medical professionals already put safeguards into practice when discussing treatment options that could possibly cause death as a consequence. 

“There are rights to refuse treatment,” she added. 

Some TDs admitted that they have conflicting concerns on the prospect of changing the law around assisting dying. 

James Lahart TD said that the next eight months will be a “steep learning curve” for all of the committee members.

Alan Farrell said he will “struggle with the moral and ethical side” of the debate around assisted dying in the course of the committee’s work. 

“Everybody has concerns and trepidation over what we are getting ourselves into,” he said. 

“On the basis that suicide is no longer illegal, what right do we as able bodied, relatively healthy people to tell people what they cannot do?,” he asked. 

“Intertwined with that concern, I have huge concerns about the unintended consequence and impact that any bill could have if it was to disintegrate or lead to others taking advantage of vulnerable persons,” Farrell added. 

Senator Ronan Mullen repeatedly questioned Gibney on whether it was the case that IRHEC was in fact going to recommend that the Oireachtas legislates to introduce an assisted dying framework. 

Gibney stated that she wouldn’t rule out the commission taking a stance on the issue in the future, but that this was not the case to date. 

Mullen also repeatedly asked Woods if he would, hypothetically, be prosecuted for taking steps to intervene in someone’s suicide, and whether people have a constitutional right to complete suicide. 

Woods clarified that suicide is not prohibited under the constitution. 

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    Mute Peter O Donnell
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    Nov 10th 2020, 4:01 PM

    Why would airlines operate flights at a loss and the airports get state aid? Surely the incentive should be to the airlines too?

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    Mute CMT
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    Nov 10th 2020, 4:23 PM

    @Peter O Donnell: You’d think that logically. If the airlines had an incentive to fly then the airports wouldn’t need funding…. More logical decision making made here by Eamonn Ryan. Better than nothing I guess though.

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    Mute Sean Oige
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    Nov 10th 2020, 5:06 PM

    @Peter O Donnell: Simple. Planes lose more money not flying than flying….

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    Mute John Brendan Mullen
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    Nov 10th 2020, 4:36 PM

    What pandemic.? Surely a pandemic suggests a massive rise in mortality rates.? So far in 2020 the monthly mortality rates compared to the same month of the 5 previous years, with the exception of April when our government threw the elderly to the wolves is lower.

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    Mute Wreck Tangle
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    Nov 10th 2020, 5:05 PM

    @John Brendan Mullen: boring!

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    Mute Paul Furey
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    Nov 10th 2020, 5:25 PM

    @John Brendan Mullen: thanks doctor.

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    Mute Paul Furey
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    Nov 10th 2020, 5:38 PM

    @John Brendan Mullen: oh and check the news before you post. Italy records its highest daily deaths since April.

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    Mute John Brendan Mullen
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    Nov 10th 2020, 5:40 PM

    @Wreck Tangle: you define pandemic for us all please. I’m curious about your definition.

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    Mute John Brendan Mullen
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    Nov 10th 2020, 5:42 PM

    @Paul Furey: as opposed to what .? Summer months always have lower mortality rates than winter.

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    Mute John Brendan Mullen
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    Nov 10th 2020, 5:45 PM

    @Paul Furey: ye don’t have to be a doctor to know that “pandemic” is accompanied by a massive spike in mortality rates. That’s not the case in 2020. Ireland actually has lower monthly mortality rates compared to the same month of the previous 5 years. Panicdemic more like

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    Mute John Brendan Mullen
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    Nov 10th 2020, 5:46 PM

    @Paul Furey: duh.

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    Mute John Brendan Mullen
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    Nov 10th 2020, 5:47 PM

    @Wreck Tangle: yeah, you wouldn’t want anything as boring as the truth get in the way of a good story.

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    Mute Paul Furey
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    Nov 10th 2020, 5:58 PM

    @John Brendan Mullen: “A pandemic (from Greek πᾶν, pan, “all” and δῆμος, demos, “people”) is an epidemic of an infectious disease that has spread across a large region, for instance multiple continents or worldwide, affecting a substantial number of people. ” (…..hint….worldwide….)

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    Mute Wreck Tangle
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    Nov 10th 2020, 7:39 PM

    @John Brendan Mullen: the lockdown worked and sheltered people like yourself from reality.

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    Mute Peter Dowling
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    Nov 10th 2020, 11:06 PM

    @John Brendan Mullen:

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    Mute ChuckE
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    Nov 10th 2020, 4:52 PM

    Why are the comments closed on the Healy Rea/deleany story. Surely can’t be for legal reasons

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    Mute Paul Furey
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    Nov 10th 2020, 5:39 PM

    @ChuckE: you know why!!! Just think how many comments they would have to delete.

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    Mute Pauline Cahill
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    Nov 10th 2020, 4:47 PM

    They would be better off building housing and looking after people with that money were is all the profit airlines have made over the years

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    Mute Paul Furey
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    Nov 10th 2020, 5:40 PM

    @Pauline Cahill: you’re ok with the airlines folding, reducing in size and jobs being lost?

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    Mute Paulie Little Balls
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    Nov 10th 2020, 6:30 PM

    @Pauline Cahill: where are all the profits that pubs and other businesses have made over the years gone? The exact same place as airlines profits due to govt restrictions.

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    Mute John Brendan Mullen
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    Nov 10th 2020, 7:42 PM

    @Pauline Cahill: shareholders dividends

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    Mute Sportmad
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    Nov 10th 2020, 4:32 PM

    Wonder what Shannon will get as they have been ran into the ground by all governments..
    Pity as with The present one and the Greens the traffic and the congestion etc to use Dublin is a bug of mine let alone the cost of Aviation Fuel to fly over Shannon personally does not make sense forgetting the passengers are from the whole country not just Dublin ..

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    Mute Paul Furey
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    Nov 10th 2020, 5:34 PM

    @Sportmad: Airlines determine the routes they fly based on where the market is and where they can make money. Shannon cost Aer Lingus a fortune with their Boeing 707s and 747s from the 60s to the 80s. The fleet had double the amount of take off and landing cycles as their peers and with a full base due to the enforced Shannon Stopover. Madness! And who remembers being stuck in Shannon Airport at 4am for 90 mins while trying to get back to Dublin from the US. Having said all of this what could the government do for Shannon that would not cost the state a fortune and would benefit the country.

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    Mute Sportmad
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    Nov 10th 2020, 10:46 PM

    @Paul Furey: fair points but the fact remains that Dublin and Cork has been given a big advantage by Government in the funding it receives and as all are owned by the Government why is there a seperate Authority for Shannon..
    Dublin and cork nearly 1bn in revenue 2019 and with snn just 24 m
    There is a massive disparity in that
    counties outside the pale and rebel county a fair share and then see
    We have to travel to and from Dublin from west and its much easier now not 4hrs but yes 2hrs have you ever stayed outside dublin or used tge region’s airports doubt it.. but yet we must go to Dublin i have used ever Airport in this country and region ones best..
    Dublin is a nightmare
    Give the cash to not just snn but kerry and Galway the others are ok with those profits others not..
    Rant over

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    Mute David Connell
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    Nov 10th 2020, 5:27 PM

    What about all the profits and grants the DAA received over the years. What about DAA staff who took pay cuts? The media should look into ERIC and see how the DAA broke it’s promise to staff regarding it.

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    Mute Robert Clifford
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    Nov 10th 2020, 4:17 PM

    Chicken feed to be fair.

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    Mute Richard Russell
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    Nov 10th 2020, 4:53 PM

    If I had a choice support our airports or the media I would back our airport’s

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    Mute Angela Jones
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    Nov 10th 2020, 9:47 PM

    So about the same price as a prawn sandwich and a Coke.

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