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LAST UPDATE | 27 Jun 2023
RTÉ HAS SAID that “no member” of its executive board other than former Director General Dee Forbes would have been aware that the “publicly declared figures for Ryan Tubridy could have been wrong”.
In a nine-page statement released this evening by the Interim Deputy Director-General Adrian Lynch, the broadcaster has attempted to explain the timeline leading to its underreporting of payments worth €345,000 to Late Late Show presenter Tubridy.
“No member of the RTÉ Executive Board, other than the Director General, had all the necessary information in order to understand that the publicly declared figures for Ryan Tubridy could have been wrong.”
However, the statement added that Forbes has not had the opportunity to respond to the details set out in its statement and may “therefore challenge or disagree with our understanding and position”.
Lynch’s statement said that external legal advice has been received that arising from the findings of a review by accountants Grant Thornton, that there was “no illegality and payments were made pursuant to an agreed contract” by the parties involved.
It added that the Grant Thornton review “makes no finding of wrongdoing” on the part of Tubridy in relation to any payments made by RTÉ.
“Ryan Tubridy was not aware of the credit note provided by RTÉ to the commercial partner,” the statement said.
Lynch also stated this evening:
“The former RTÉ Chief Financial Officer left RTÉ at the end of March 2020. Beyond that date the former RTÉ Chief Financial Officer had no further involvement in any of these arrangements.”
The fallout to the scandal continued elsewhere throughout the day.
It was confirmed that Forbes herself will not be attending a meeting of the Oireachtas Media Committee due to health reasons.
Culture Minister Catherine Martin confirmed an external review of RTÉ’s culture and governance which she hopes to secure Government approval for this week.
TDs and senators are preparing to question RTÉ management on the underreporting of payments at separate Oireachtas committees this week.
Earlier, RTÉ staff gathered for a protest to voice their frustration with management in the wake of the controversy over the payments.
Here’s how the day unfolded on The Journal’s liveblog on the controversy.
Good morning.
Five days after RTÉ revealed that it publicly understated Ryan Tubridy’s earnings by €345,000 since 2017, many questions are still circling about how the discrepancy came to be and how the broadcaster plans to move forward.
The RTÉ Board has said it will publish “as much as possible” of the external review into the undisclosed payments that was carried out by Grant Thornton, but that payments made from 2017-2019 are still being reviewed by the advisory company and so will not be included.
It said a “comprehensive” statement will be issued this afternoon “setting out its understanding of the circumstances” around payments made to Tubridy in the 2020-2022 period.
This afternoon will also see some RTÉ staff protest at 1pm.
The branch of the National Union of Journalists (NUJ) representing RTÉ employees called the protest, encouraging supporters to attend and bring placards.
In a statement, the union said it is “acutely aware of the ongoing anger of members and also of the powerlessness that many members are feeling”.
“In response to requests from members the NUJ are calling a lunchtime protest for 1pm tomorrow at the plaza in RTÉ Donnybrook,” the union said.
“This will be an opportunity for NUJ members to stand together and express in unity their anger and the urgent need for answers as soon as possible, for the public and for staff.”
Our reporter Jane Moore has taken a detailed look at at what we do and don’t know about how this situation came to be.
Who knew about the payments made to Ryan Tubridy, and who approved them? Why did RTÉ underwrite the agreement between Ryan Tubridy and Renault? Why did RTÉ pay €80,000 to use the barter account to pay Ryan Tubridy? What happens next?
Click here to read the full article exploring the questions that RTÉ is facing.
Hello! Jane Moore here. I’ll be bringing you the latest updates on the RTÉ controversy for the rest of the morning.
Cabinet is currently meeting, where, it has been reported, Media Minister Catherine Martin will update colleagues on plans for an independent external review of governance and culture at RTÉ.
Martin announced the review last Sunday following a meeting with the RTÉ board.
Speaking then, she said the purpose of the review will be “to determine what fundamental or systemic issues need to be addressed, including the adequacy of internal controls”.
“While as Minister I cannot get involved in the day to day operation of RTÉ, I do need assurance that the governance and culture is fit for purpose.”
“Public trust in RTÉ must be rebuilt,” she said.
End ‘drip feed of information’ and ‘come clean’
The Minister for Further and Higher Education Simon Harris has called on RTÉ to “end the drip feed” of information and reveal who knew what about the undisclosed payments to Ryan Tubridy.
RTÉ News is reporting that, on his way into Cabinet this morning, Harris told reporters that it is “really important” that RTÉ management “come clean”.
“It’s important that they end the drip feed of information and that they put all of the facts out there,” he said, adding that people who work for the national broadcaster and the public are looking for answers.
Harris also said he was looking forward to being briefed by Minister Catherine Martin on the terms of reference of the external review into governance and culture at RTÉ.
Irish Secretary of the Nation Union of Journalists Seamus Dooley has said that RTÉ staff are protesting this afternoon to demand “truth, trust, and transparency”.
Speaking to Midlands 103 this morning, Dooley said: “There is a belief while workers on the ground – not just journalists, all workers on the ground – do a good job day-in-day-out, that a small group of people at the top who are very well paid have put in jeopardy the public trust in RTÉ.”
The protest at RTÉ’s campus in Donnybrook is due to kick off at 1pm.
Dee Forbes ‘needs to appear’ before Oireachtas committees
The chair of the RTÉ Trade Union Group (TUG) has said that former director general of the broadcaster Dee Forbes “needs to appear” before the Oireachtas committees this week to answer questions on what she knew of the undisclosed payments to Ryan Tubridy.
Forbes resigned as director general yesterday, saying in a statement that she cares “very deeply” about RTÉ, the people who work for it, the public it serves and its mission. It remains unclear whether she will be attending either of the committees.
Speaking on RTÉ’s Morning Ireland, Stuart Masterson said: “I think for her to give that statement validity and truth, she needs to appear in front of the committees to answer the questions in as clear a manner as possible.
“People can say stuff all the time, but actions show the sincerity behind that statement, and I think by her turning up, it would show that she actually does care about RTÉ,” he said.
Masterson added that the TUG will expect “all the primary players involved in this to turn up at both committees and be as open and and involved with the process as possible”, in order to “try to work back some of the trust that has been broken with both the public, the staff and the government”.
Stuart Masterson also told RTÉ’s Morning Ireland that the the sense of “anger and betrayal” felt by staff at the national broadcaster could not be overemphasised.
“Behind every big name, earning hundreds of thousands, are ordinary workers, men and women who are not on high wages, doing their very best to deliver public service broadcasting,” the RTÉ Trade Union Group chair said.
“These people were essential during the pandemic, continued to work so that information and programmes could be carried out as needed.
Many of them have seen their wages frozen for years, which essentially amounts to a pay cut given the rise in inflation over the last number of years. They’ve seen their resources cut and some of them live with uncertainty over contracts.
Masterson added that for those “going from contract to contract”, to learn of the payments made to Ryan Tubridy was an “utter betrayal of the trust that management has broken with staff”.
‘We need to lance this boil immediately’
People Before Profit TD Richard Boyd Barrett has called for “full disclosure” from the RTÉ board and executives about who knew about the undisclosed payments to Ryan Tubridy.
Speaking at the plinth outside the Dáil, Boyd Barrett branded the news of the payments a “kick in the teeth” for others working for the national broadcaster and the public.
“We need to lance this boil immediately, and that means full disclosure now by the RTÉ board and executives about exactly who sanctioned these payments,” he said.
We need absolutely full disclosure and full transparency about all these payments, who was involved, and that should be published now. We shouldn’t have to wait for it to be a managed message at committees.
Boyd Barrett said that journalists and staff who will be protesting outside RTÉ this afternoon are “substantial victims of this scandal” and that they deserve “the facts, truth, full transparency and accountability now”.
He said that anyone who knew about the payments should have to face questions at the Oireachtas committees, and also called on Media Minister Catherine Martin to appear in the Dáil to speak about the matter.
“We don’t think some sort of seven month review is an acceptable way to deal with this,” he said, referencing the external review announced by Martin at the weekend.
He said that a proper discussion about the funding of public service broadcasting is needed and criticised the license fee.
Boyd Barrett added that he believes presenters’ salaries should be capped and the involvement of commercial financing should be examined.
‘Question marks’ around positions of RTÉ Executive Board
Labour senator Marie Sherlock has said there are serious question marks around “how tenable” the positions of members of the RTÉ Executive Board are.
“The future confidence in RTÉ is dependent on who is running the organisation and I think there is serious question marks about how tenable the positions are of certain members of the executive,” she said at the plinth today.
Sherlock said questions also need to be asked about “the very business model within RTÉ”.
“It is extraordinary that we have a situation that a commercial semi-state company has contractors in place to provide core services,” she said.
We have to ask how has RTÉ made gods out of a small number of its workers.
She said RTÉ has said that is has to pay “exorbitant sums to a very small number of people” to retain talent, but looking back over the last 30 years, there have only been “two permanent defections from RTÉ”.
“If we’re to look abroad to Britain or elsewhere, the sums on offer in Britain or elsewhere, obviously are far beyond what RTÉ could ever have paid here. So I think there’s very real issues now about how those negotiations were ever conducted.”
Sherlock also questioned whether the RTÉ board has full oversight over some of the largest commercial sponsorship contracts within the organisation.
“The question has been posed, what is the board there for if it does not have oversight over some of these major decisions being taken by RTÉ executives?”
She also expressed solidarity with RTÉ employees who will be protesting at 1pm.
“The reality out at Montrose at the moment and across the country is that the car is on fire and RTÉ staff are having to keep the show on the road, working extraordinarily difficult circumstances in an environments now where I think many are saying to us privately that they feel massively disrespected,” Sherlock added.
Lauren Boland here again to bring you the latest this afternoon.
Our reporter Carl Kinsella is outside RTÉ headquarters in Donnybrook, where the NUJ has called for staff to join a lunchtime protest.
A member of the Oireachtas Media Committee has suggested that all paid external work events carried out by RTÉ staff should be published on an online register.
Fine Gael TD Ciarán Cannon said that information about presenters taking on events and appearances that are not part of their role with RTÉ should be made available to the public.
“The board and executive of RTE have a major job on their hands in restoring trust in our national broadcaster. I believe that a key element of that work should be the establishment of a register of external payments, similar to that established by the BBC,” he said in a statement this afternoon.
“There is no issue with anyone being paid for such events, but the viewing public needs to be made aware of relationships between broadcasters and private corporations.
“It is because of their high profile afforded by their roles and work within RTÉ that the on air talent is offered external work. There is nothing wrong with these opportunities being afforded to them once it is transparent to the public what they have undertaken.
“This register should be a key element of restoring trust in RTE and it could be created within a week. Such a register will help to ensure impartiality.”
Ray D’Arcy is the latest RTÉ presenter to issue a statement on his earnings:
“This is a terrible mess. On a human level I feel for the people involved but also share the feelings of anger and disappointment of many people around the country and in RTE. For the record, I haven’t got an agent. All of my salary figures to date have been reported correctly. When asked, I agreed to take a more than 15% cut in 2019. My current salary is €250,000.”
A crowd has gathered now outside RTÉ for the protest by workers. Here are photos from our reporter Carl Kinsella on the scene:
Speaking at the protest, RTÉ News’ Legal Affairs Correspondent Órla O’Donnell said that staff “hope that if the answers are given, if people come out and take responsibility, perhaps we can try and preserve the future of public service broadcasting and the future of this organisation”.
“We want our viewers and listeners and readers to know that we stand with them. We want to know why this happened, how it was let go on, what happened between 2017 and 2019, and why it was covered up and why we have still no proper answers six days into this. We still don’t know exactly what has happened and people are very reluctant to come out and answer questions,” O’Donnell has said.
“We want answers. We want the truth out. Truth matters. We’re always saying that, we’re always telling people that. We want the truth for everybody, for all of us staff who’ve been so badly let down, so badly let down, and the people of Ireland are being let down. We are here to serve the people.
“This is public service broadcasting. How can we stand in front of people and tell them that we are always telling the truth, that we are accurate, fair and impartial? We want the truth and we want to be able to look our viewers and readers and listeners in the eye and tell them that we’re standing up for them today.”
Similarly, Midlands Correspondent Sinéad Hussey said: “I feel very let down as a staff member but I feel very let down for the public, the public that we ask every day can we come into your house? Can we interview you? We feel very betrayed and I think it’s important to show today that we won’t accept this.”
At the same time, our reporter Eimer McAuley is outside Leinster House where Minister Catherine Martin has issued an updated statement after this morning’s Cabinet meeting.
The minister briefed Cabinet on the external review that she is commissioning on governance and culture in RTÉ, with details to be finalised in the coming days.
She has written to the chair of the RTÉ Board to say that the statement it releases today must answer the public’s questions about the payments in question.
“As I have said before, the revelations from RTÉ this past week are unacceptable and damaging to both RTÉ and to public service broadcasting in general. Properly functioning public service media are critical to our democracy and our society,” Minister Martin said.
“Trust and confidence have been broken and it is essential that RTÉ puts the full facts on the public record as a matter of urgency, to avoid further damaging public trust,” she said.
“This morning I wrote to the RTÉ chair to set out my expectation that the further Statement to be released by RTÉ today will address key questions that need to be answered. In particular, the public wants to know who signed off on the payments, who else was involved or aware of these transactions, and when will the further Grant Thornton report commissioned by RTÉ which relates to the understatement of the remuneration of RTÉ’s top paid presenter by €120,000 between 2017 and 2019 be completed.
“At times of crisis, it is the failure to put all information on the record at the earliest possible juncture that does most damage. RTÉ must not now squander this opportunity to share everything that they know on this matter, in advance of the Oireachtas hearings later this week.”
Back at the protest, Education Correspondent Emma O’Kelly also spoke strongly about the disappointment among RTÉ staff this week.
“One of the first messages I got on this crisis was from a colleague who said this is both unbelievable and believable. That really resonated with me,” she said.
She said staff felt the situation was “unbelievable” but that “we also felt it was believable too because many of us either have personal battles in here, or we’ve seen colleagues’, so we know what goes on and we know the culture of this organisation”.
“We don’t need a review – even though we welcome that review – we don’t need a review for us to know about governance and culture in this organisation because we’ve been at the receiving end of that culture for too long. And when I say the receiving end, I don’t mean the end with all the money. Not that receiving end.”
New: A spokesperson for former Director General Dee Forbes, who resigned yesterday, has said she will not be attending the Oireachtas Media Committee due to health reasons.
Senior members of RTÉ are due to attend the Oireachtas Media committee and the Public Accounts committee (PAC) this week to answer questions from politicians.
It is still unclear whether Forbes will attend the PAC meeting. The Journal has asked her spokesperson but has not yet received a response.
Minister Catherine Martin had said earlier this afternoon that it would be “helpful” if Forbes came before the Oireachtas.
After today’s Cabinet meeting, Minister of Public Expenditure Paschal Donohoe has said that the government is “really concerned” about the issues around pay and transparency at RTÉ.
“All the issues in relation to remuneration and pay for RTE are now obviously the subject of heightened public concern,” Donohoe said.
“We need a state broadcaster, but we need a state broadcaster in which pay decisions are made in a transparent way.
“The government is really concerned about the latest developments. Minister [Catherine] Martin briefed us today on the contact that she has had with RTÉ since last Thursday to emphasise the need for transparency and clarity in relation to issues that she became aware of and briefed the government on.”
He said the government will consider the statement that RTÉ releases today.
“I believe that in the coming days the government will be in a position to sign off on an independent review of these issues within RTÉ,” he said.
“I think they’re really serious. I understand entirely the anger that many inside and outside at RTÉ feel in relation to it. We will still need a state broadcaster at the end of all of this, they do valuable work, but these issues are clearly exceptionally serious and the government will respond back to them later in the week.”
There’s no shortage of politicians today making remarks about RTÉ.
Taoiseach Leo Varadkar described the revelations are “deeply unsettling”.
Speaking during Leaders’ Questions in the Dáil, he said that they have “shaken public trust in what is an important institution,” he told the Dail parliament”.
“We want to see trust restored quickly, because we do need a strong public service broadcaster for our state,” Varadkar said, calling for RTÉ to give “full and open” answers.
“RTÉ, in very many ways, plays a very important role in our society, from Irish language broadcasting to children’s programmes, to drama, sports to good-quality news, documentaries, election coverage, important public information, for example during the pandemic, and we need to be cognisant of that,” he said.
“If things were done that were wrong, and I believe things that were done were wrong, that needs to stop, it needs to change and people need to be held to account. The institution needs to be restored and to survive.”
Minister Catherine Martin has said that the government will foot the bill for the external review of RTÉ’s culture and governance.
Read our full article on the review here.
Coming from another angle, Screen Producers Ireland, a representative body for production companies, has expressed concern about the impact of the revelations and subsequent fallout on independent producers.
Chief Executive Susan Kirby said that the group’s members are “dismayed at the revelations about governance and transparency of financial reporting and accountability standards at RTE”.
“Of major concern to them is how these issues may impact the funding for independent production,” she said.
“Nothing must be allowed to harm the broadcaster’s ability to continue supporting the independent sector’s production of high-quality content for Irish audiences.”
RTÉ’s North West Correspondent Eileen Magnier has shared this image from the field:
That’s it from me – my colleague Eoghan Dalton is here with you for the next while as we await the extended statement from the RTÉ Board.
Staff from RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta have shared this video from their protest in Connemara over the payments scandal.
Baill @RTERnaG & @NuachtTG4 @NuachtRTE de @NUJofficial & @SIPTU ag agóidíocht taobh amuigh de cheanncheathrú @RTERnaG i gCasla #Conamara inniu lena míshástacht a chur in iúl d’ardbhainistíocht @rte faoi chonspóid na n-íocaíochtaí faoi cheilt. #InisAnFhírinne pic.twitter.com/poRRC7ZplM
— Marion Ní Shúilleabháin (@Marion_Ni_S) June 27, 2023
As we await the statement from RTÉ, let’s take a look at what’s happened today so far:
• We discovered that former Director General Dee Forbes will not be attending a meeting of the Oireachtas Media Committee, having cited health reasons
• Culture Minister Catherine Martin confirmed an external review of RTÉ’s culture and governance which she hopes to secure Government approval for this week
• TDs and senators are readying themselves to question RTÉ management over the broadcaster’s underreporting of payments worth €345,000 since 2017 to presenter Ryan Tubridy
• It all came as RTÉ staff gathered for a protest this afternoon to voice their frustration with management in the wake of the controversy over the payments.
Today’s protest by RTÉ staff across the country shows that the organisation “faces a reckoning from within that looms as large as any Oireachtas committee”, reports Carl Kinsella.
In his piece from the Montrose demonstration, a number of staff lambast the broadcaster, including some well-known figures.
Political correspondent Paul Cunningham said staff have discovered in recent days that “there is a special arrangement for special people”, while Caoimhe Ní Laighin, from Nuacht RTÉ, said her unit’s “equipment is all falling apart” with no camera available “even at the weekend”.
Among the details in the lengthy statement from RTÉ this evening were how the broadcaster also footed the bill for hosting commercial events for the sponsor involved in the agreement, Renault.
Eimer McAuley reports that RTÉ stated that it paid, via the UK Barter account used to make previously undisclosed payments to Ryan Tubridy, “for the costs of hosting the commercial sponsor events in 2022.”
Reaction is ongoing to the day’s events here, with the board of the Writers’ Guild of Ireland saying that it is deeply concerned about the “lack of transparency” around payments.
“In an era in which writers are increasingly being asked to do more for less money, and with budgets and opportunities for Irish writers continually being slashed, it is unconscionable that at the same time RTÉ has been covertly spending money in this fashion,” the guild said.
It added that it hopes that the scandal will “not be used by our Government as an excuse to underfund” the public service broadcaster.
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are I wrong in thinking that it is their own choice to live the way they live ?
I do t see what it has to do with travellers’ rights either. Seems like petty point-scoring
That won’t stop political opportunism from politicians.
How about political bravery that makes living in a caravan or pre-fab forbidden on the grounds of safety? or not provide supports for people who do? What about political bravery in tackling why this way of life causes the highest rate of suicide among its young men? What about political bravery to combat the high levels of non-compliance of law and order and criminality among traveller families? What about political bravery when it comes to dropout rates in education among travellers? How about political bravery in investigating or get CAB to investigate how someone who is unemployed can purchase new automobiles?
The events of the weekend were an absolute travesty but those families should never have been living were or how they were – and pavee point can say what they like the travellers don’t travel anywhere – they’re not nomads and the traditional travellers are completely unrecognisable in todays traveller community. Its time for political courage alright but as long as there are elections it’ll never be done.
le tigre , nothing at all to do with point scoring , the article says that there is about 400 people living in caravans at the side of roads and all I’m asking is it not their choice to do that ? travellers like to move around do they not ? I know not all of them do but the majority ?
careful now because that’s similar to what Fiona was trying to make out and she got slated for it .
I drive past a halting site in north Dublin and the houses built for them by the council are all smashed up.
At Suzie. Not all travellers live or want to live on the side of the road. We have no idea if these particular families chose this sort of accommodation or were on the waiting list for a house.
What has worried me is that the government plan on housing homeless families in pre-fabs. Another potential disaster
It wasn’t directed at you, Suzie! The Mayor of South Co Dublin was the one trying to score political points against the government. Opportunism at its worst.
apologies ,Le Tigre .
*got*
Bob , the one near ballyfermot springs to mind too .
Anne Marie neither the Govt or the housing authorities are proposing to house anyone in sub-standard prefabs. Unfortunately most Irish people think of the school prefab in which they were educated. What is being proposed is that “modular housing” be part of the solution mix. This housing is built to a high specification in a factory environment and is fully fire compliant as well as meeting all other standards. Indeed Dublin City Council have I think published a full spec of the standard that this type of housing has to meet. And it does meet all standards
Only in Ireland do we have this ridiculous conversation about “traditional” housing I.e. concrete blocks versus other forms of housing. As if traditional housing in Ireland is anything to extol with its typical sub-standard construction and poor insulation values. The discussion should be about design, quality build and proper surroundings e.g. properly serviced and landscaped sites in good locations.
Modular housing, if good designs are implemented, is likely to be superior to “traditional” builds in a whole range of areas, not least air tightness and insulation. But in Ireland we prefer to offer ten unlikely problems for every innovative solution and then criticise when nothing happens. If we want solutions they won’t come from what we have traditionally done. That’s a large part of the problem.
@Anne Marie devlin
It wont be a disaster for Redacted O’Swine’s bank account..
Halting site bungalows in Brookfield Tallaght houses in bits and burnt out caused by themselves. Im no lover of the Sunday World but last Sundays articles on the mainly traveller gangs responsible for the burglaries on farms and elderly living alone arround the country. is that the fault of the settled community and government aswell. Condolences to the families concerned this is a terrible tragedy.
Eddie its not traveller gangs its the irish mafia. Like in new york with 5 families ireland has the mcdonaghs, the wards etc etc etc.
Bob you’re being racist. stop dissing the travellers for smashing uo houses provided to them by govt and stealing and intimidation and intimidation of the elderly and violence and fraud and tax avoidance and vandalism and lack of cleanliness and sexual violence its time the travellers were left alone instead of answering to these responsibilities.
I keep on hearing about rights but what about responsibilities. If travellers want improved rights they need accept the responsibilities that come with living in this society.
Well said Maria. This is a terrible tragedy but what rights do they expect exactly? Equal rights to everyone else? Pay taxes, contribute to society, don’t expect everything handed to them on a plate
Two way street they need to be respected by society also. They do have a lot of responsibility for themselves too
I agree. But that opportunity also has to be given. The end of your comment is indicative of the prejudice. As I said, both ways
Maybe they’ve “nothing to contribute” due to countless regressive pieces of legislation over the past 50/60. Society has distanced themselves in an attempt to strip them of their culture. You ask any person who remembers them in the 50s, very few have a bad word to say. There has to be attempt between settled people and travellers to bridge the gap. It won’t happen over night. But calling them names and tarring them all with the same brush does nothing for anyone
Travellers want everything handed to them. They don’t work but yet have bucket loads of children and expect the state to pay for their upbringing. They constantly thrash pubs but cry discrimination when refused entry. They want equal rights but yet they treat traveller woman as virtual slaves who are denied any chance of a career outside of being barefoot and pregnant. Pavee Point needs to get travellers to look in the mirror and to stop blaming all their problems on other people. Let’s not forget that at the start everyone thought this was an arson attack by another traveller clan. This is because that’s what they do. So how are they always the victims?
I get what you’re saying. There are negative elements in travelling families and that needs to be dealt with. What’s preventing that is the public condemnation of travellers as a whole. There’s no denying they’re not all angels.
“That’s what they do”? That’s again brandishing them all. Look at cause and effect. It’s failed policy upon failed policy. As I said above, slandering them does nothing. Some of the comments on this feed alone are ones akin to that of articles on Isis
If travellers aren’t given more money of course they’re going to be entitled to steal, vandalize, intimidate, avoid tax and be dirty. lads its common sense. pay them more money to stop the anti social behaviour jeez
VAST MAJORITY. VAST MAJORITY. If you don’t believe me Google the word traveller, or ask anyone what do they associate with the word traveller. look at the thumbs up numbers here alone
I know quite well what people associate with travellers, and it disgusts me to be honest. There’s no denying there are issues within there culture, but how do you expect them to be dealt with when 95% of population constantly vilify them. That’s down to media portrayal too.
What is it about them Travellers?
https://stephentodd4.wordpress.com/2015/06/14/what-is-it-about-them-irish-travellers/
I’ve 3 red thumbs although only one person has read my article. Good to see the ability and willingness to engage on the topic.
Many groups have faced discrimination in Ireland over the years. These include people of different race, religion, colour and sexuality. However, thanks to anti-discrimination laws and these people’s determination to contribute and be active in this society, they have been integrated into all parts of our world. Except for the travellers. Why? Is it because they don’t want to contribute? Is it because they are too lazy to be active? In all my years I have never seen a traveller go for a job interview and you never see them working in any shops or factories. Maybe they have realised that by becoming useful members of society they won’t be able to play the victim anymore and it might become a lot harder to get handouts just because of who they are.
I read your article Stephen , although I don’t fully agree, it’s an interesting piece you wrote .
John, with all due respect, your running with the same dogma again. This is systemic, and hence detachment. They struggle to see the point in a society that vilifies them. All of which I mentioned above. I admit there are faults, but solidarity, instead of divisiveness, is the only thing that will work here. I’m clearly wasting my time here, and it’s a pity it’s taken such a tragedy to even have a conversation on this, but I hope something positive comes from it. I’m gonna leave it there.
“They struggle to see the point in a society that vilifies them”
Which came first. the chicken or the egg? You think the rest of the population just decided to vilify them for no good reason?
Baldy John, I’m originally from a working class area. My ex also happens to be a traveller. “You’re what’s wrong with the country”, cop on to yourself will ya. I’m not gonna get into a “I know a..so I’m not…” Argument with you. Cheers for the contribution
The government vilified first, the general public, then the media. Come back when you’ve a half decent contribution to make. I assume you’ve reviewed the policy too?
Stephen sorry I think that’s the wrong way around . you always have to look at the source first , travellers won’t change or try to change . they will continue to act like they are above the law because they get away with it , it suits them to play the victim . they are not even trying to change public opinion of them .
This stems back a lot further than recent times. Gypsies Bill 1950 in the north, as well as an attempt at forced assimilation in the 60s here.
times change Stephen , you’re talking about the 50′s / 60′s , what about this generation ? they have no excuses whatsoever . excuses upon excuses are made to cover up for their behaviour and the way they chose to live their lives
Do you not think policies like those and ones that followed had a knock on effect on the future generations? Racism was supposedly eradicated in America in the 1960′s, yet it’s still seen systemically and personally today? These things don’t change over night
no Stephen I don’t think what happened in my grandparents day or back in my parents did not set the benchmark for how I live my life today .what has the people of today done on them for them to carry on the way the do now ? again Stephen , you seem to make excuses for them .
I’m not making excuses. I’ve repeatedly condemned behaviours. Systemic oppression is a bit different to picking up bad habits by the way.
Baldy John is what you called him Stephen. Any further points you made were just invalid. travellers have a disproportionate level of violence and corruption and attacks and theft and elderly attacks and manipulation and intimidation. they are the worst scourge of society and you make the point that they are not accepted or don’t have rights and that’s why they do it. its not the reason Stephen. gays were absolutely castigated for years but you don’t see them putting a screwdriver into the ear of an old lady.
95% are unemployed , that’s not just a few , yet they seem to have cash to buy up land , horses etc . I wonder where that money comes from ??
who do u think u r im a traveler ive done 3 years of college and work In an old foalks home so dont brand uz lazy or unable to work kuz we can right notin said about polish sitting here getin handouts owww sorry thats ok
im a traveler nd I’ve done school and 3 years of college soooooo probly more qualified than you
wow biddy Connors , great name ! three years in college and you write like that ?
Agree
It maybe not be convenient to some for me to say that Travellers’ first have to care about themselves before we in the “settled” community care about them. The also have to care about the rights and values of others. To stop blaming others for their problems and to take responsibility for their own actions.
Agreed, its pathetic maggie
Yes it is a tragedy but these people are victims of their own “culture”.
The fact of the matter is that most of them don’t want to live in houses, and the majority of the ones that have done in the past behaved so badly they get evicted.
A large portion of the population don’t dislike them for no reason.
Having said that there are probably better times and places to have discussions like this.
How serious are Travellers about the rights of settled people?
A large proportion of them are a scourge, even in the cities they are watching and prowling, and driving around in vans waiting for an opportunity; a lapse in security; a house with no burglar alarm; and they send in the underage trainees first-in case they are appprehended.
If the rural community think they have problems,join the club.!
To be fair Sean, imagine there’s only you and them, no one else for miles around. There’s no kids around either, no need.
Live near travellers,they have spent in the region of 1.5 million buying land ,houses and building new houses .they have new pick ups ,spend most nights drinking in local pubs and drive home by the way !! No questions are ever asked by revenue where this money comes from ,a small carpet store and selling trailers is suppose to be their income .i have worked for the past 20 years and can barely afford the mortgage .my sympathy to the family’s whom have lost their loved ones in the fire but travellers need live by the law and like normal people do , they need to work pay taxes and contribute to society like “most” normal settled people do !!!
Can the council send the travelers a bill for services rendered? Maybe they should pay a bit of taxes for the social services they enjoy.
Haven’t the journal already closed several threads because of the horrible comments in relation to people dying.
What ever anyone’s situation so many people including children dying in such a way is terrible beyond words.
I only hope the families can find peace some day.
And for those who wrote those awful comments (and I was shocked to read them) maybe karma does exist (though I don’t believe in it) and maybe one day you will find yourself outside your own home staring in unable to help your children…
I wouldn’t wish it on anyone but these things do happen and for someone to enjoy it is unspeakable beyond imagination.
It’s been such an awful weekend and I hate for the trolls and bigots to take the spotlight away from the innocents who have suffered over the past few days. Having said that, the journal needs to look at its comment moderation policy and practice. It seems the comment section here is being hijacked by the most depraved, cowardly and despicable people in our society. Would they say these things in public, down the pub or even to their mates of family, NO, because they are cowards.
If you ever have difficulty imagining the concept of infinity, just think of the level of stupidity and ignorance of these “people”.
That translates as ‘I wish to see any comments that deviate from my oh so righteous view censored and moderated’.
yep , I got that translation too .
So you think we should give a platform for people to say the most heinous things about the victims of an ongoing tragedy?
I kinda felt like “I wouldn’t wish it on anyone” really meant “I wish it on the people who said things I found distasteful”
sertious I have to agree. This is a public platform. even racists should be allowed to comment here. censorship damages all of us not just those being censored.
You’ll be sorry to hear that censorship goes on here all the time. Lots of comments deleted over the last few days. As I said before, I question the usefulness of opening a forum on an ongoing tragedy for which the details are only emerging.
so you think we shouldn’t be allowed to comment on anything , nobody should give their opinion on anything ?
Here’s an idea Journal. Either don’t print articles that you expect to attract diverse points of view or don’t allow any comments on them whatsoever.
You had no problem doing that with articles about Denis O’ Brien when he tried to stifle free speech in our national parliament, even for days after the court had ruled against him.
What did I just say Suzie?
ho Carlo I remember your comments on Saturday and like you I was exasperated at the level of vitriol so soon after such an awful tragedy. yes people are entitled to their opinions but outright bigotry and incitement to hatered does no one any good. those advocating their objection to any particular way of life have amble opportunity to vent their views without hijacking an article on such a tragic event.
If you feel that Carmo, do you thing the journal should not cover this story?
Without the comments section no one would read the journal.
You say people are entitled to express their opinion Margaret, yet you are prepared to judge what is an acceptable opinion and what is not. That’s contradictory, what may appear to you to be vitriol may seem a valid point of view to somebody else.
ah Betsy , you’ll hurt the journal’s feelings by saying that !
no read my post again. there are numerous opportunities for people to express their opinion. personally I just felt the level of vitriol was over the top considering 10 persons had just died. it was vicious. last week there was also an article on travellers and again it was vicious but it was a completely context. I was even asked if I was a ‘p@@@y’ and didn’t reply. regardless of community it would be ‘nice’ to express sympathy on such occassions as these while saving hard opinion for another day.
* completely different context
sorry say that again carmo ? I wasn’t listening .
What’s the point in expressing an opinion on a tragedy when not even the full details have emerged? What good can come of it?
And Suzie, don’t give me any cr@p, when your up there blanketly accusing victims and their families of anti-social behavior; sure that’s gonna get deleted for sure!
Despite all the green thumbs it got.
carmo , I never accused his family and I’m not the one who’s trying to control what gets said on a public forum . if my comment does get deleted , then so be it , that’s the way it goes .
As in the Indo where Redacted o’Swine carefully scrutinize every word..?
To my knowledge, no vitriolic remarks were passed about the victims themselves and I myself , would have been disgusted if there had been. What incensed people was the effort to use this tragedy to make excuses for travellers in general and their behaviour towards the community at large, by the usual PC, Bleeding Heart brigade who have probably never had to suffer at their hands and who use these opportunities to cry their crocodile tears.
well said martin ,100%
Wow carma , you are really up for starting a fight between settled and travellers , ppl like you are trouble makers , we all agree it was a terrible tragedy , why can’t you leave it there ? instead of accusations of racism and bigots over ppl giving the truth , your political correctness is driving me mad
Margaret there is no one in the universe that doesn’t sympathise. There is an article here saying they should have more rights thus it stands to reason that people will say wait now hold on they engage in violence fraud theft intimidation rape fear tactics vandalism litter dirt and sexual abuse. These are stone cold facts. Facts Margaret. So irrespective of the tragedy which no one denies is a tragedy this is a separate discussion on travellers rights and their behaviour is going to come into that conversation type obviously. Also Margaret I am not a bigot. real proof and fact is there that it’s happening in mass and not as a minority don’t believe me, type traveller into YouTube or Google or ask at random layman what they associate with traveller or the comments or the thumbs up. there’s a very clear picture from that Margaret which clearly shows that it’s not a
“minority”. were not bigots either. I’m open to all minorities. I’m pro gay people in pro coloured I’m pro everything. Gay people didn’t go to my father’s house with a knife and a hammer. They don’t attack old ladies with screwdrivers. The next time you say people are bigots to travellers here Margaret make sure you get a reality check and get your facts straight because you’re disgustingly out of line.
What a horrific weekend. First this and then the shooting in Co. Louth. Condolences to all affected.
One thing that should be taken from this tragedy, is that these type of units are not suitable for living accommodation. Daytime office units yes, but for housing families a no no. This type of tragedy will happen again unless things change.
The article title: “It begs the question: how serious is the government about Travellers’ rights?”
The Government is made up of people who represent the majority of Irish people, and as you can see there is very little sympathy or understanding from the majority of people for “Travellers” as a social group or as a way of life..
And hardly suprising, how many of you reading these comments have any traveller friends, business contacts, or neighbours? I would say Zero!
Due to their lack of integration into general society, disproportionately high rates of serious crimes and over-representation in the Irish prison population…Only recently we heard of a group of particularly violent and vicious young travellers who are now spending the next 10 years locked up…
Most of us fear and loathe anyone from the Traveller community, we hear groups like Pavee Point demanding more rights, yet who stands up for the normal taxpayer when they are robbed or defrauded by a traveller…
Or when we look at T.v shows about them and see brand new caravans, Range Rovers, the best of clothes and expensive weddings costing tens of thousands of Euro…
I have sympathy for the dead, but expecting the settled community to have concern about traveller rights when all we see is abuse of the system and the citizens of the state by them?
yeah I think most ordinary decent travellers hate those in your face/bling tv3 shows,filthy rich folk.
Travellers have human rights the same as every other citizen in the State, they’re not a separate ethnic minority as some bleeding hearts like to claim. It’s not unreasonable either to ask where the source of their wealth comes from, do they pay taxes on their income, why there appears to be inherent violence within the community, why is their sexulisation of girls and why are women condemned to lives of endless child rearing with the community. I have a tremendous amount of sympathy for the dead and their families not for the people who are cynically using this tragedy to promote their own misguided agenda.
what about victims rights that they burgle up and down the country what about animal rights that they abuse what about them not paying water rates like the rest of us have to pay for what about their waste taken away for free and we have to pay for the privilege I rest my case
10 people are dead 5 of them beautiful innocent children.. I can only imagine the horror the rest if the family are going through.. And will have to go through for the rest of their days. And I’m lost for words at the mindless insensitive crap people are posting.. If you have nothing nice to say just shut up! RIP to you all xxx
Who is left homeless? I will certainly donate as it’s a tragic case but I wonder about the motive here. Is it a collection with the charity getting the benefit or actually families.
Donna, anyone with experience of the St Vincent de Paul will tell you they are a reliable organisation.
Donna, show some sensitivity. The families could be reading this.
James. I want all my donation to go to the families. That’s my point here. I’m not getting into a debate about it.
You just did.
“I’m not getting into a debate about it.”
Then why post this stupid comment
“Who is left homeless? I will certainly donate as it’s a tragic case but I wonder about the motive here”
Donna , maybe the families in prefabs of homes beside the fire were badly damaged too .
Donna,
the social welfare grant will not cover the full cost of each funeral. So maybe that’s where the money will go.
Really sad incident..Hopefully lessons are learned so there’s no repeat of such a tragedy…
@The Girl
Hopefully you are right but it’s still Ireland and we have never learned any lessons!
Lesson to be learnt…..
Live in purpose built accommodation designed to certain standards established to protect life! Portocabins are not suitable!!!!!
They were under a bridge( from what i was told) and had to leave as they were building the tracks for the Luas in Carrickmines put on the Glenamuck Rd in the middle of the night by Councillors from Dun Laoghaire CC.
“Lesson to be learnt…..
Live in purpose built accommodation designed to certain standards established to protect life!”
Like Priory Hall, Longboat Quay and the many more places as yet undiscovered.??
This article “begs the question”, how close does Michael D Higgins come to breaching the necessary Constitutional restraints on his utterances and actions as President of Ireland? It could be argued that he has already egregiously breached the Constitution in this manner, in which case he could be impeached by the Oireachtas.
@John Reid
What exactly are you talking about?
What did Higgins do wrong in relation to this tragedy?
Dee Higgins is a Champagne Socialist who occasionally taps sad stories like this, so he can smirk in his own image in the mirror, as he counts his cash and tells himself what a great guy he is.
Ten of his ilk would not equate with somebody like Paul Murphy-a real socialist.!
@Sean
I partly agree with your view on Higgins but that hardly justifies impeachment.
Whoever can afford it, should donate. It’s an appalling tragedy.
Just to clarify why I think Fiona is getting red thumbs. It is because of what she said here on saturday. See FM’s comment above for clarification. She seems to be on a damage limitation mission here. I’m all for forgiveness but I hope she has modified her opinion about the rights of the traveller community to exist and continue to exist. Surely just after such an appalling tragedy was completely the wrong time to express these sentiments and I hope Fiona can recognise this.
and yet Carmo you felt the need to raise it all up again ? , funny that .
Terrible thing to happen and my heart goes out to those that will morn for a long time to come. But we still have to talk about the elephant in the room. Travellers do not want to interact with the settled community, never have and never will. They cause nothing but chaos in housing estates they are brought into. There are some exceptions to the rule but they are few and far between.
I agree naoimh and one of the guys had tragically died , had been evicted from a house for anti social behaviour so again people give out about prefabs and caravans being unsafe to live in , but again it’s their own choices .
Suzie there are many housing estates with extreme anti social behaviour and the said persons are not travellers.
Margaret , I totally agree with you , it goes on in most housing estates .
Travellers are not a distinct ethnic group.
Travellers, in the main, do not wish to mingle or live with ‘settled’ people.
Travellers, and their representative groups, do themselves no favours by constantly blaming everyone else for their woes.
Would I want my daughter to marry into a ‘culture’ that controls women and encourages them to leave school before getting a full education, discourages them from working. NO I wouldn’t and that is not racism, that is standing up for individuals (womens) rights.
Naoimh you are the only who speaks the truth.
This tragedy is one of the worst that has happened in a while, but these people will not live in a settled community they want to have houses where they can have caravans and only their people, not possible.
And i could say that the people in Glenamuck were tired of the children coming into their gardens “always looking for the dog”.
Saint Carmo Vanderval, how we should all aspire to your perfect t life and perfect view of the world. Please don’t judge us mere mortals.
The should have the right to live by the same laws and standards as the rest of us. That’s it. what the actually want us to have special rights to not dobtge above and have us all go “Ahh its ok, they can do whaterver they want because it’s their culture” Sorry.. life doesn’t work that way.
the local fine Gael councillor for the area sent out a letter a while ago commending the fact that shed managed to stop the building of a traveller site in the area, like wise a fine Gael councillor in my own area sent out flyers saying he’d managed to halt a traveller site in the area, don’t be fooled by their crocodile tears for a minute.
To lose so many in one night I don’t know how I would cope. I send my condolences and best wishes to the families of these poor people. RIP.
A terrible tragedy undoubtedly , but comments by Pavee Point are remarkably unhelpful . The travelling community has unfortunately a well deserved reputation for antisocial behaviour . Is this reputation being fabricated or is it correct? Pavee seem to be suggesting that landlords should be more inclined to rent to anyone , traveller or settled people. Well Pavee is the reputation deserved or not.? If not , why not? Instead of trying to score points over the tragedy why not admit to the problems and start trying to do something about it.
this is an awful tragedy, not a political football
Horrible sick comments on the thread yesterday even when people showed sympathy they got red thumbed. Made me sick to the stomach. R.I.P. Those who can give, give what you can.
matt , I would say it’s an automated spam.
@Braeckmanns
Feck off with your poxy scam, you moron!
Show some decency!
I never criticise Journal journalists ever but this is the worst journalism I have ever seen. full stop. absolute gutter journalism. an embarrassment. your job is to report on everything. you have left out traveller theft violence intimidation fraud elderly abuse sexual abuse. I can categorically say you’re not fit to be a journalist.
Surely travellers are as entitled to council houses as other Irish citizens?
I think the fact they are travellers may be the reason they don’t want houses
What a tragedy, may the families rest in peace.
Sarah Holland is full of it .Caravans and mobile homes are not tinder boxes, she should book a holiday in Brittas Bay for a week, why not a month on her salary. Like the rest of the vast array of public servants who draw big salaries creating work for themselves catering to Travelers who would be much better able to look after themselves if the State in it’s stupidity didn’t pursue policies that convinced them that they are entitled to be endlessly supported without providing any thing in return other than more of the same.
Yes we’re all about equality and human rights. How many companies or businesses are willing to give travellers a job? how many banks will give them a mortgage ? how many people would like to see them living in their housing estates? As an equal society we shun the travelling community and moan about their behaviour. really what chance or opportunities do they have. It’s alright to leave them rotting away from view in the filthiest of conditions and at the same time decide to build housing for refugees. What a hypocritical shower we are. Equality what does it really mean. RIP to those unfortunate human beings.
how would you fix it seamus?
Seamus , how many travellers want a job ? how many travellers want a mortgage ? how many travellers want to live in housing estates ? how many travellers want to integrate with settled communities ? what about the children and schooling ? how many go to school on a full time bases ? these questions need answers too .
well said Suzie.
Stardust comes to mind?
the majority of travellers have money and don’t pay taxes. the proof of their wealth is very clear in their cars, vans, weddings shows and headstones.
@Suzie
Sure it is but there is always somebody behind this kind of scam.
Anyway it should be taken off!
Matt , I agree it should be taken down .
Some of these comments are horrendous, if they were black, had towels wrapped round their heads or worked in Jimmy Cheungs such comments would be removed.
These ‘Irish travellers’ are as, if not more, Irish than most in this country, their ‘rights’ are as due protection as any other Irish citizen but not greater since it’s a Republic but, ‘temporary’ halting sites need to be converted into real homes.
Not all Gypsies are the type who abuse the system, there’s bad throughout Irish society.
Good Man Joey you sound like Citizen Smith. Rent it on video and you’ll see what I mean.
Joey I have met a LOT of travellers and not one has been non violent including a knife to my father on a farm for asking to leave his land. its a vast majority
To the ones that are good i salute you. to the ones that are bad you are nothing.
well of course Sarah Holland is a shinner and they jump on the band wagon of every poor down trodden minority in society. it’s how they get their votes.
travellers should get equal rights , this tragedy was awful but travellers are getting lots of the government , the council’s are bending over backwards for them , in my area travellers family got free houses while others pay a mortgage , most of them are great neighbors but 2 families unfortunately are making everyone else’s lives a misery , yet the council’s refuse to evict them cos they are travellers , where a settled family would be gone
This government took 2 resource teachers from the kids of traveller families, it says it all about how much people care.
SNAs were cut in every area of the country, travellers were not the only group to suffer.
Never judge a book by its cover especially when use don’t know the family that this had happened to.. They happen to be my relations
And for your information I’m a legal Secretary in a legal accountants i pay taxes and went to college, I’m a traveller does this mean use all compare the definition that use call “traveller” to ever single one of us? I’m sorry but that’s discrimination right there!!
Just because we have a label on us doesn’t give use the right to judge others
People have lost their lived here and they happen to be my family that were actually waiting to be housed for the last 5 years
Think before use speak before u start making judgements on other people lives
The nature of these comments is almost entirely uniform; identify the out group; apply universal negative traits to that out-group, and in doing so deny all individual identity.
There is a word for this; bigotry.
Now it may be that Irish Travelers have a tendency to behave in particular ways. You can apply that to any identifiable group. But to then ‘tar them all with the same brush’, thus denying all individual identity, is flying very close to a dangerous way of thinking. It has done inordinate damage to Europe in the recent past. We should know better.
Be more careful in your thinking.
have your say