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IT MAY BE hard to believe, but even with the average rent it charges steadily creeping towards €2,000, Ireland’s largest private landlord is struggling.
Owning almost 4,000 homes, Ires Reit is one of the biggest players in Irish property.
On the surface, it looks like it is making hay at a time of record rents and soaring demand. Its results for the first half of the year show the average rent across its properties was €1,772 per month, up from €1,688 the year before.
Revenue is slowly increasing, while the company’s earnings before any deductions rose by 7% over the last 12 months.
So why is Ires one of the worst-performing stocks in the Irish market, and in the grips of a corporate crisis?
Formed in 2014 by Capreit (the Canadian Apartment Properties Real Estate Investment Trust), Ires seemingly perfectly timed its launch as one of the first real estate investment trusts in Ireland.
The idea was for the company to be at the forefront of ‘professionalising’ the rental sector, which at the time was dominated by small landlords who owned just one or two homes.
It was also looking to take advantage of a recovering market, with prices still low following the financial crisis, but starting to rise again.
Buying up land and apartment blocks relatively cheaply, many of which were from the State’s ‘bad bank’ Nama, Ires was well-placed to generate steady returns for backers. The vast majority of properties it owns are apartments in areas slightly outside the centre of Dublin which are popular with city commuters, such as Sandyford and Tallaght.
The company was getting a rent yield of about 5% per year, and the value of its properties were steadily rising as the housing crisis bit.
It also endured occasional public protests about its rent prices, which have also consistently crept up over the years. From an average of €1,364 per month across its portfolio in 2015, the prices it charges have increased by about 30% since, with even this limited by rent caps.
The company has defended its prices, saying its tenants are happy with its services and it provides value for money.
Around 2019 was Ires’s peak. The firm raised more than €134 million from backers in a move to buy up hundreds of apartments, as investors were keen to get into Irish property amid a backdrop of surging prices.
Shares in Ires rose to €1.82 near the end of the year, almost twice the price compared to its initial public offering in 2014.
Although this nearly halved to €1 following the Covid outbreak, there was a bounceback to €1.73 around the start of 2022, followed by a slow decline since.
This is despite the fact that the company consistently records 99% occupancy at its properties, driven by the rent crisis, and average rents are still on the rise.
The issues
The biggest worry about Ires is its exposure to interest rates, which hits it a few ways.
First off, it raises the company’s borrowing costs. There was some criticism after the company only closed a deal on an important €275 million credit facility in December, locking in higher repayments than if it had acted sooner.
But more importantly, by limiting how much people can borrow, there is a knock-on impact on property. In previous years, the paper value of Ires’s properties consistently rose.
Now it’s going the other way, with the firm writing down the value of its assets just a few months ago.
Like all Irish Reits, Ires has to abide by legislation which states that the most debt Reits can have is equivalent to 50% of the value of their property assets. This is called a loan-to-value (LTV) ratio.
Ires took on significant borrowings to fund its expansion pre-Covid and its LTV recently rose to just over 45%, near the maximum allowed.
Analysts estimate the value of Ires’s properties could fall by 10% by the end of 2024, meaning it would be in danger of breaking this limit.
To prevent this, Ires moved into ‘sell’ mode to get some more cash in the door.
Last week it reached a deal to sell almost 200 west Dublin apartments to the Tuath Housing Agency for €72 million and is looking at offloading further assets.
While this generates cash, it has created another headache. Some investors feel Ires moved too late. They argue that it was obvious from the middle of last year that interest rates would rise significantly.
By waiting until recently to pull the trigger on asset sales, the rate rises have already started to bite and Ires is getting worse prices now than it would otherwise.
Essentially, the argument is the company’s management acted too slowly and is now selling too cheaply because it has little choice.
The impact
This has caused a wave of shareholder unrest. At the company’s annual general meeting in May, almost 40% of investors opposed the re-appointment of chief executive Margaret Sweeney to the board. Brian Fagan, the company’s chief financial officer, squeaked through his own vote with the backing of just 54% of shareholders.
Those opposed include Capreit, Ires’s founding investor which still holds 19% of the business, and Vision Capital, a Canadian firm with a 5% shareholding which has spearheaded the opposition.
Vision’s grievances stem from what it claims is company mismanagement, claiming that issues such as its asset sales have led to the destruction of €170 million of shareholder value. These claims have been rejected by the Ires board, which say its business plan is on track and values have been hit by market forces largely outside its control.
But that, really, is at the heart of Ires’s issues – its share price.
Trading at just under €1, almost the same as at launch in 2014, investors will likely continue to agitate as long as they feel they’re not getting as much value as they could.
With interest rates rising sharply and property price growth finally slowing (although still going up), for some investors there’s not much attraction to bet money with Ires when they can get decent returns from low-risk sources such as government bonds.
While this is the case, despite the fact that rents have never been higher, Ires will likely continue to face problems.
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One’s heart bleeds for them
@Marie Agnew: We’re livestock to all involved.
@Marie Agnew: thieves
“The idea was to professionalise the market”. In other words, to leave a few big players who then can form a cartel. I, for one, am delighted it wasn’t successful.
Ireland was up the creek without a paddle after the crash. Completely broke. The only way to get properties built was to allow REITS. They’ve invested, made lots of money no doubt but now the worm in’s turning and many of these properties will be let go because invariably markets change. Shareholders are not happy, they are over leveraged it appears and will have to sell assets. If you read the article they already sold 200 to a non profit agency. With any luck their will be a large sell off pushing prices down
@Temp Stuff: plz god hope yer right as major change are required us rental prices in Ireland it’s getting out of hand
@Joanne Stokes:
Don’t hold your breath.
Bottom line we don’t have enough houses, be it rental of to buy and we don’t have enough builders to change that.
It’s probably going to get worse.
@Temp Stuff:was it really the only way to get properties built?
@Joanne Stokes: agreed.
@Eoin Delmer:
Irish developers were broke, most of them in Nama
The state was broke, had to be bailed out by EU/IMF.
Exactly who else was going to fund building?
By the time the economy had improved the builders had left or re-trained to something else which is the reason we are screwed now.
@Zmeevo Libe: in the meantime, the demonisation of small players has driven thousands of them out of the market.
@P.J. Nolan: I agree it all boils down to greed and unfortunately with the small landlords leaving the market it will see major increase in homelessness.
@Joanne Stokes:
Sorry Joanne but you sound like someone with a political agenda to push.
It has nothing to do with greed.
We don’t have enough builders to build the required number of properties we need.
The next government, whoever they are will also face the same shortage as is every developed nation on the planet.
It’s going to get a lot worse.
@John Mulligan: And that is why the amount of privately rented homes is growing. Keep lapping up the BS from the blueshirts.
It was always the struggling farmers now we have the struggling landlords . What is next coming down the track maybe the struggling politicians
@Alan Scott: On the farmers bit. Yes there definitely are farmers who are doing well for themselves, in areas with top quality land like Meath and Kildare. But there are farmers in the west who are barely breaking even, bad quality land and any euro that is made is reinvested to try to improve the setup. Its just a way of life for some people, a tradition, hardship really. And that is 100% our own fault. We could sell up and put the feet up and enjoy life. But saying that all farmers are rich is nonsense.
@John John: could you post that link please ?
Not that we don’t belive you but …..?
@Alan Scott: without farmers will you grow your own food in your garden or import milk and beef? Sick of these folks who have no clue about farming are constantly giving out on social media
@Alan Scott: I can tell you there be nothing about the struggling worker who pays their taxes
@Davejohnston: Apologies for being a bit flippant on this subject In all walks of life there are people who are on the breadline.
@Markos Drakos: Oh stop doing the only for the farmers bit I have heard it all before it’s fairly well rehearsed by now.
There are a lot of very smart and rich farmers in this Country with very expensive lawyers behind them when needed.Everytime they march to Dublin they roar into the city with massive tractors jeeps and cars that cost a lot of money .
@Alan Scott: the struggling professional dolers, maybe?
@Alan Scott: No, it will be the struggling bankers and private equity funds, in other words rentier capitalists feeding like sharks on the basic housing needs of our population without producing any added value whatsoever, and when they go belly up it’s somehow the responsibility of the rest of us to bail out these over leveraged ponsi schemes – all for the “public good” so that they can continue to scam their victims – Irish renters, mortgagees and taxpayers.
The root of the problem is that Ireland’s property market was an outlier for decades in terms of investment, generating returns of c.10% per annum annualised.
This caused a huge amount of our current issues. Investors piled in with expectations that this would continue, leading to a situation whereby they had unrealistic expectations of what an investment in property should generate for them.
Small landlords here feel that a rental property income should pay their debt repayments, give them capital appreciation of the asset and also give them an income stream.
Shareholders in institutional funds, at the same time, expect returns of double figures. This leads to rapid rent rises and here we are …
From an asset point of view, in terms of sustainable returns, property should be expected to generate no more than 4.5 – 5% per annum over a longer term. This means that if the owner is servicing debt, they should not expect an income stream from day 1 – their returns for a debt covered property will only come in the form of capital appreciation which will obviously ebb and flow with market conditions.
Small landlords and REIT shareholders are only now beginning to realise that no goose lays golden eggs forever and that’s why they are getting out, all the while pressuring the government for tax breaks so they can have their unrealistic expectations of 10% growth met.
Greed right across the whole spectrum is the root of our rental and price crisis – ably abetted by successive government policy decisions pushed through by a legislature of small landlords.
@Wombleman: Excellent posts. Thanks for your insights. Good point about how REIT investors actually pay tax.
Just to add to some of the reasons why landlords may be getting out. I personally know 2 “small” landlords both who have either sold the now paid off properties to give the inheritance to their kids while they are still reasonably young. And the other one who has just handed his property to his daughter as she, like so many thousands of others, can’t actually get a property for the many reasons we all know about.
@Wombleman: Thanks wobleman for that honest and realistic synopsis.
@Wombleman: Some very good points made here, one of which I noticed myself recently. There was an Irish Times article a few months ago that published landlord opinions on why they’re leaving the market. The aspect that struck me most was that they all considered their mortgage to be an expense and that they should have cash left over every month after paying the mortgage, maintenance etc. IMO each mortgage payment is money in the bank as your adding equity to the property, however many landlords don’t consider the mortgage payments as part of their profit.
@Wombleman: Greed indeed. It’s a strange form of addiction. At least with crack cocaine, it’s all out in the open with obvious downfalls where money and power are concerned it’s evermore subtle, encouraged and celebrated. Our thirst for shiny things needs to ebb before we do anything with the place.
I remember seeing one of the executives from one of these companies being interviewed, and he was boasting about the fact they would charge as much as possible to rent out these properties. Not only were they getting sweetheart deals for investing in Irish properties they were also not paying the same level of taxes as the small Irish landlord on rental income.
The new foreign landlords ripping of the Irish citizens and keeping them in a forced poverty. This was a scheme set up by the FG government because of their inability to provide housing themselves. They and this government have stood by and let this problem fester and worsen, while the people of this country suffer with unsustainable rents
@Thom Thumb: Please see my post above in relation to the taxation of REITs – the income and profits are taxed to the same extent as if it were a small landlord. In the case of a REIT, it’s the shareholder who pays the tax as opposed to the company but it’s paid nonetheless.
There is a slight favourable treatment due to gross roll up but, given the average length of shareholding in Ireland, it’s negligible in the round.
Could you please have a read up on these things before perpetuating the ‘myth’ of tax free investments.
It suits small landlords to play the poor mouth at the moment because they have finally realised they can’t have their cake and eat it but that doesn’t change facts.
Why is it that small landlords think they should get a tax break so they can buy a property with someone else’s money (the banks) and then have a tenant pay back that money and pay them an income whilst they sit back and watch the asset increase?
What exactly has the landlord done in this case to reward them so generously – other than sign a loan agreement?
@Thom Thumb: Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story! You just got called out on being completely full of $h¡t. Embarrassing.
@Wombleman: These simpletons would rather pump the bs narrative that it’s all a government conspiracy rather than look at the actual economic history/reasons we are in the situation. Thanks for keeping it factual!
@Iano C:
They are not simpletons, they are party activists.
@P.J. Nolan: Comme ci, comme ça.
@Wombleman: Disagree with REIT treatment, will foreign shareholders be subject to local Capital gains tax? Did the companies not have access to NAMA land at greatly reduced prices. The profits had to filter somewhere, be it management or foreign shareholders. REIT investment may of been to unload Apartment complex and land banks. But equally small landlords are required to keep rent balance and less than attractive properties open to the rental market. If Government did not interfere it should be a case of REIT Shareholders ringing a broker and unloading shares immediately forcing the company to return large amounts of property to the market. But they will be saved as they are fully reliant on large private investment to prop housing schemes and small land lords can go to hell which is completely different treatment.
@Thom Thumb: Ireland independent, but now wanting to replace the military coloniser with an economic one – international private equity capital. Good luck with that!!!!
Let me fetch my smallest violin.
@John John: or move on and sełł, 4000 properties on the market woułd be grear
@John:
Not so great for the people that would have to move out because of the sale.
I’m an evil landlord because I worked and saved and bought property instead of drinking beer and €4 coffee and snorting coke.
I demand to be punished for taking all the risks and renting out property to people who need places to live.
Force me to take any tenant, despite their credit history or employment status, and when they trash the place, force me to repair it, while they move on to the next unsuspecting landlord.
Force me to house non paying welfare cheat deadbeats for 20 months while the RTB quango ignores hard working people.
Then tax me at full margin, while denying me basic tax deductions that other business get.
I AM PURE EVIL!
@Paul: Forced to be a landlord?
@Paul: sounds more like your not a good business man.you should sell your property and get out if its that bad for you. Poor Paul. We’re all crying here for you.
@Paul: all those coke snorting expensive coffee drinking alcoholic non landlords are just bitter.you just wanted to give people in need a place to live it wasnt an investment.you risked it all like a daredevil would and you deserve at least a blue peter badge for that.only for the welfare deadbeats and house thrashers to ruin it all for you,the working man drinkin less than 4 euro coffees .then someone forced you to take tenants you didnt want,and forced you to repair your property after the welfare cheating,bad credit,unemployed,4 euro coffee drinking,coke snorting,beer drinking deadbeats that paid your mortgage left.what has the world come to paul
@Paul: Have you ever thought that maybe being a landoord isn’t the job for you? There are plenty of jobs out there Pail how bout you get up and find one you actually like :-)
@Paul: someone give this man the medal of freedom and a blue Peter badge for such heroics
@adam page: I sold up one of 3 properties, netted 500k before CGT, so I’m not doing too bad.
Real question that the commie left need to ask themselves is why small landlords are rushing to leave when rents are so high.
@Paul: eew awww…world’s smallest violin – can you hear it Paul?
@Paul: and your still crying paul. My heart bleeds.
@Paul: get a real job
I wonder how many of our overloads in Government have shares in this parasite company?
@Gerard Carey: the government should bail them out , if it gets worse
@Gerard Carey: according to the register of members interests, none.
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/members/register-of-members-interests/
@D. Memery:
Don’t bother bringing in facts, they won’t belive them.
@D. Memery: Firstly we know from recent revelations in property interests that many TDs and even ministers are not entirely truthful with the register.
Secondly shares taken out under a partners name do not have to be registered so it would be very easy to hide a financial interest.
Lastly SIPO have been shown to have little power to do anything even if a TD is failing to disclose an interest so there’s no consequence even if caught.
@Rochelle Hart:
Have you noticed the bit about landlords selling up in their droves?
This article is about the biggest landlord in the country running into some difficulties.
If this is supposed to be a pro landlords government why is that?
@Rochelle Hart: I think Robert Troy TD and Damien English TD may disagree that there are no consequences to not doing ones register properly
@D. Memery: It’ easy enough to set up an overseas trust fund to receive “donations” for a politicians family members – sure isn’t that what our financial services bw ankers do all the time for foreign funny money holders?
@michael mcsharry:
In other words Michael, you have no evidence to back up your statement so you make something vague up.
Time to set up a Go Fund Me account for this poor company.
I will start the fund by donating
Sw.F.All
@Brendan O’Brien: ill be the 1st one to donate
Capitalism, the snake that eats its own tail.
@AnthonyK: what would you prefer, communism maybe?
@RobbieK: What a silly comment. Do you really believe that the only alternative to capitalism is communism? Seems like you should open some books.
@RobbieK: we have capitalism in Irelan and Germany. Which one would you prefer? And I don’t think anyone proposed Communism as a solution. Even PBP folks know that’s it’s not realistic
@RobbieK: No, honest capitalism is fine if it is regulated but unregulated rentier capitalism is a curse. Just ask the Americans dealing with rentier private equity capitalists buying up all the non profit hospitals and doubling the fees and loading them up with debt so that they go bankrupt and can be sold to other rentier capitalists to repeat the cycle etc. etc.
@RobbieK & Brendan O’Brien: I have nothing against Capitalsim. I think it’s by far the fairest economic system currently. I do object to bailouts. And this company will, if it gets worse for them, start to agitate for some sort of bailout ie a change in legislation.
@AnthonyK: There won’t be a change in legislation for them, it’s already a light touch structure. REITs pay no tax on profits because they are owned by shareholders and the shareholders individually pay full tax on the gains of their share holdings.
The only legislation that really applies is the LTE limits and this won’t be touched due to the disaster that occurred in the GFC due to leveraged property assets.
The only way out is to continue offloading assets until rates come back down – hopefully this will lead to a scenario whereby the REIT becomes unviable and is liquidated allowing for the properties it owns to be sold on the open market.
@Wombleman:
Sounds to me like they may just be a bit over-extended, off load some of the poor performing (properties rent restricted at a lower rent) to the likes of Cluid and reduce their loans.
I cannot see any kind of mass sell off to be honest.
@Wombleman: Oooops – sold on the “open” market to another group of foreign rentier capitalists for a song so that they can continue cutting costs for the benefit of their shareholders. Prefigure – increased rents, lower maintenace standards, less security etc. etc. rinse and repeat. Probably another branch of the original company sharing the same holding company in the Cayman Islands.
Bring back the window tax.
@Pól Pot: No, that’s Daylight Robbery.
@Pól Pot: No, bring back the pitchfork as an instrument of political persuasion.
The state took the easy option rather than looking after it’s people . Typical FFG
@BL Music:
And where do you think the state was going to get the money to build at that time?
@P.J. Nolan: Correct …The money was being used to repay for the gangsterism of the banks and developers facilated by the Government of the day…Taxpayers was used and the burden was than put back on the taxpayers through austerity measures.
@Donal Desmond:
Correct, and the other option was?
Can’t wait for the comments on this article
Ffg are so much , in there own minds ,that they refuse to any responsibility .
@Robert Halvey: that just does stop at housing that’s them all over!!
Greed pure Greed.Now the Chickens are coming home to Roost
@Wombleman: fair point. But I’m sure people thought banks would never be bailed out etc. To big to fail and all that.
What’s going on with capitalism in China is very interesting and far more worrying. The property failure there is something.
They lost 46million last year occupancy rate at 99.5 %. Not much upside unless they substantially increase rents. Symptomatic of buy to rent in general, interest rates hike are going to burn alot of ‘real estate entrepreneurs’
Like anything else you’d need to look at their total books , how much is their management costing ? Whats the operating cost of their operations ? Are they paying a large royalty or fee to an offshore firm ,
These guys came in a decade ago to make money , fine , thats business ,
but i dont see a reason to peotect or coddle these companies, its big business and business doesnt really have friends just intrests ,
If theyre not getting new units built and bringing DOWN the excessive rents ( the opposite of professionalising the rental sector ) then they’re not really of interest to the irish state ..
Rule 1. Don’t invest more than you can afford to lose.
Rule 2. Allow for variables.
Unfortunately when it’s not your money you tend to get carried away and spend, spend, spend without the fear of consequences
@Andy Preneur:
I bought a house in 2006, cost €300k the bank manager in Irish Nationwide wanted to know if I wanted €500k so I could buy a rental as well.
No thanks.
@P.J. Nolan: Well, this is how people got such high commissions for selling loans.Bank staff were pushed to urge customers to borrow as much as they could. I’ve no doubt the same staff were promptly laid off as the banks closed local branches.
@F Fitzgerald:
There is a solicitor’s office now where the bank was, rather apt I think.
This was inevitable and, potentially, a master class by the government. More than likely Paschal. Got these funds to come in, bankroll all the housing, wait for the market to turn and then buy them all back on the cheap and use for social housing.
@Sean Harmon:
Wishful thinking.
@Sean Harmon: if you believe that this was their plan your in la la land
Well ain’t karma just a biiaatchh…
No sympathy for them. That’s what greed does. Eventually it bits you where it hurts.
Well Lenin said 90% of communizing a schtate is setting up a central banc. It’s not really free market capitalism is it when we’re 90% communism eu wide. Worldwide.
@Hindenpeter 2.0: The similarities have always been there, people’s perceptions need very black-and-white terms. 100% there is no ‘free market’ in either situation. Just arenas for a handful of already supremely wealthy addicts, each one looking to ‘catch them all’, it’s pathetic.
@Thesaltyurchin: What’ more pathetic is that politicians world wide are selling out their populations to the gangsters running the financial services industry.
I’m going to be criticised here.
But I think large large professional landlords are a good thing. Property can be better managed on a larger scale.. you get economies of scale from property maintenance and improvements…
It’s hard to get agreement from dozens of different owners to do things… a single owner can put solar panels on roofs/ install a new lift/ evict problem tenants etc.
In my block of flats it takes about a dozen owners to agree to do things… how is that efficient?
@Voice of Reason: ur right you are going to be criticised because all you business heads forget there’s human beings getting squeezed all the time through rent increases etc. Nobody cares. Or mentions that. All landlords do is weaken society as a whole its all about me. . greed and more greed.
Delighted hopefully they go to the wall.
@Stephen Walshe:
No one will be better off if they do.
Their tenants will still have to pay their rent.
‘The company has defended its prices, saying its tenants are happy with its services and it provides value for money.’
As a former tenant I’d love to know how they came up with this statement. Customer service was awful, our home had no insulation in the roof and when we left, it took us 10 months and RTB involvement to get our deposit back. They’d probably say they hear no complaints… But that’s because they are literally impossible to contact.
Yes indeed. People should sue them for lack of services, but no doubt they’d simply move on to plague another group of people concerned with keeping a roof over their heads singlehandedly.
@PJ Nolan: You may be right and, indeed, that’s what the REIT board are hoping for, but it’s a tight call – selling off assets reduces the income stream to the fund which puts pressure on returns.
Add to that a falling share price which restricts the ability to raise capital for future acquisitions and these things can quickly snowball.
@Wombleman:
Possible, but I think unlikely. either way even if it does go pear shaped for this company the shortage of property and consequently high prices means they always have a get out.
KARMA….is alive
Awwww
Hang on just looking for my tiny violin
They probably borrowed up to the hilt, now they will up the rent again. The government should stop them and then buy the stock from them and a reasonable market value.
@Mark Trudgeon:
The government can buy any property in Ireland but under the constitution it has to pay FULL market value.
Spare a thought for the more fortunate? No I don’t think I will
That’s capitalism folks
Time for Harris to go back North and for McEntee to head back to the Coombe.
@MoscowMick:
There there, go back to sleep now there there
It’s no surprise. Mismanagement of expenses must be rife. The same few contracting companies doing all sorts of things to communal spaces while minimal done to individual units.
Grass cutting during summer months on the same patch of grass weekly!
If I held shares I’d insist on line item investigations of the expenses being racked up. Then I’d investigate who owns those contracted firms and relationships they hold.
Keep digging.
Can you hear it? That’s the sound of a tiny violin in the background.
Institutional investor charging eye watering rents is worried about its share price as it over leveraged and didn’t see interest rate rises coming. My heart breaks. Of course the market will turn. It ALWAYS does at some point for one reason or another. It will again. You would think that those bringing ‘professionalism’ to the market would know that.
The irony of all this mess was that it started with Brian cowen and the IMF. REIT which is an example of a nominee company for blackrovk and vanguard buys up all the property and saves the day. Its all pre planned. Brian has personally benefited with investments from the above named. His business TD cowen is now called TD securities because of all the money they pumped into him.
John .. Another word 4 toilet
B.O.B Something floating in a toilet
Two names that keep dropping that object with their comments in the journal.
Guess the real names associated with the abbreviations
Answer on a postcard .
( due to restrictions on comments this tounge in cheek comment has appeared)
So even though the whole world and it mother knew interest rates were expected to go up, they couldn’t really go down, this “professional outfit” sat on its hands as it’s debt neared servicing! Jokers. Are they looking for a bailout or what’s the angle here?
Oh no! That’s terrible news, ha ha. Would love if they went belly up.
Boo hoo.
A robbing b@st@rd
Won’t they just up the rents?
@Stevie Doran:
Ever heard of rent controls?
There is a cream you can get for burned fingers.My heart bleeds for them.
Sure, if they made their coffees at home and cut out Avocado toast they should be alright, or you know, they could always get a proper job.
have your say