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BAILED-OUT ALLIED Irish Banks (AIB) will today repay €1 billion in unsecured debt to senior bondholders.
In a move effectively financed by the State, the money will bring to more than €18 billion the amount that Irish banks have repaid to bondholders this year as a result of the bank guarantee introduced in 2008.
It is the last payment that is due to AIB, which is 99.8 per cent owned by the State, this year but there will be a number of other payments made to unsecured bondholders in State-0wned banks before the end of the year.
Another €2 billion is due to bondholders before the end of the year in Anglo Irish Bank, Bank of Ireland, EBS building society, and Irish Life and Permanent. A further €17 billion will be handed over next year.
Protesters from Sinn Féin and the Campaign against Household and Water Taxes are due to demonstrate against the bond repayment in Dublin later today.
Independent TD Stephen Donnelly, who has been heavily critical of bondholder repayments, has been handing out €1 billion notes at Dart stations in Dublin today in a bid to highlight the issue.
The notes, which were produced in conjunction graphic designer Con Kennedy, feature Finance Minister Michael Noonan on the front and a brief note explaining what is happening on the back:
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Is it immoral to tax a persons home?
it says reasonable questions above!
No. They’ve been doing it elsewhere for centuries. Yeesh.
I know that it’s a tax that rewards the corrupt/criminal acts of the corrupt people and criminals that broke the country.
I think that the money for this “property tax” would be better spent plenary summonsing the government for fraud.
What is this tax , what is it for? A tax because I own a home, families live in home, a home is a necessity not a luxury so who has the right to tax me on this?
Before anyone says people pay it in other parts of the world they get alot more for it we get NOTHING , just a way of getting more money out of the ordinary joe to pay bond holder etc and their extravagant salaries ! Anyone who doesn’t see that is foolish !
Do you actually own your home, Julie?
My parents own our family home and will be made pay this tax I live in this home, pay bills and will have to pay some of this tax as my parents both made redundant and will have no way possible of paying this tax. just enough money to eat at this stage so yes this tax does affect me as it is pushing my parents more and more into poverty. Next year it will be more and I won’t be here to help them out I don’t know how they will survive we all know it will prob have doubled by then.
I have a reasonable question. Where are people supposed to get the money from ?
Budget like Best and the rest of us. It’s going to be an average of €250pa. Hardly comparable with a mortgage repayment.
€250 this year. €500 next year.
@Deco- Rob a a Bank, make sure it’s not a state funded one?
1000 the year after and a rise every year until you pass away.
Joke
From the money the save by quitting smoking
I bought a house a few months ago for 170 thousand. how sure can I be that the revenues estimate won’t exceed that?
can they estimate higher than what I paid for it?
Yes but you can self assess and if audited have a bloody good argument to give your valuation as correct.
Property valuation is based on comparable sales – so it’s pretty likely that your house sale and one or 2 others on your road/estate will be used by revenue to give a value in any case so it should be pretty close to the mark.
thanks, so they have visibility on what I paid. I live a good bit out of town, there are no houses similar to mine in the area, and there have been no other sales as far as I know.
@Padraig, Is there a residents association in your area? Call a meeting and agree a valuation, with your neighbours!
At what Rate will it be increased in the coming years ? 50%- 100% more?
I’m sure revenue won’t mind you paying 100% of your house value. They’ll take money from anywhere.
If a house is valued at say ?200k, either by govt or privately by homeowner, and in 2 years time the homeowner puts house up for sale (assuming there’s no increase in govt charge or major improvements to house)… Will potential buyers see the stats on what the homeowner “agreed” the value of the house was and the seller can’t list the house at a starting value of ?201k+? It just seems stupid for homeowner to agree house is worth 200k then go looking 240k.. Conversely if they agree it’s 200k and then when sell it they only get 140k will there be a refunds in tax paid due to incorrect value placed on house?
No!
does anyone else think this is blatant discrimination against the settled community
Welcome to Fine Gael’s “vision” for Ireland…
Yeah a very straight forward question, How do i dodge paying it?
Emigrate to a country where you earn more the the cost of living.
Just dont pay. F*ck you Enda!
The same way people dodged paying the household charge. Just don’t pay.
Although revenue will have the right to deduct from source I believe. And rightly so.
Not from income because it is not a tax on income you would have to agree to deduction at source.
Yes, from your income. And where they can’t, the bill accumulates in the form of a legal charge on your property until it’s sold or passed on to someone else. Also, 4% interest a year.
With wages dropping, unemployment rising, tax increasing and those of us just about managing bills as it is, where do the government think we can magic this money from?
Budget. It’s an average of €250-€500 a year. (That’s what they’re gonna say).
Budget just means take from something else to pay for it. A more direct question should be how do middle income households become exempt from this? Lower paid will be assisted or exempt and higher paid will prefer to pay an accountant to help them dodge this
That’s the general meaning of budget, yes.
They don’t, unless they come under one of the rules for exemption.
And I can’t address the rich person question…
You’re a big boy, I’m sure you can find the fiver a week.
They don’t care, they are like the mafia and will get the money through any mean possible it’s disgraceful !
They just do not care! It is that simple. Can I say that there are an awful lot of people who can not afford to pay this tax. talk to people in similar circumstances , form a group/join an anti austerity campaign.There are lots out there , offer your support even if it is only leafletting and from this you will gain confidence and support in your solidarity with others. You will find your answer.
would it not be a fairer system if mortgage interest paid was allowable against property tax… therefore those who have a large mortgage and little disposable income could get some relief
Stephen , are you suggest the gross monthly payment gets relief or just the Interest portion ?
That would be fair, therefore not likely to happen I’m afraid.
It would also be fairer if they rebalanced the tax for those of us who pay for the full upkeep of their own streets, landscaping, lighting etc through management fees (common areas in older more affluent areas are managed by the local authority, paid for by the entire community). There should also be a different rate for rural dwellers who receive fewer and poorer service from their local authority.
After paying just under €35,000 stamp duty I think that covers my contribution for my whole lifetime!!!!!!
Revenue disagree.
i paid paye last year they can sing for it this year…oh wait!
I paid PAYE too last year. I’ll pay this year, and unless my career goes horribly wrong, I’ll pay next year, and the year after……
Eh, no it does not.
P.s !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ah so james has a job and a career, what do u earn a week james? You can’t answer everyone’s question because your circumstances are completely different. Your on a higher payscale and might not have children.
What I earn a week is none of anybody’s business Karolyn, but my own.
As regards everybody’s circumstances; the majority of people’s circumstances conform to at least one standard in a set of standards. Few will be outside of those.
Welcome to the real world Karolyn.
Lmao at u trying to patronise me! Sweetie, I live in the real world, I have a feeling a lot more than u do! You clearly haven’t a clue of the level at which families in this country are struggling, that’s why u can’t see thecdiffer
Difference between your wage and anyone else’s. Watch out babe, croke park agreement nearly over and their coming to getcha!!
Karolyn, CPII can have nothing on the 50% pay cut that I took in order to come home from the US. People like you make me so happy that I made that decision. //sarcasm.
Given that:
1) Fine Gael opposed the introduction of an annual household property tax in their election manifesto;
2) Labour called for a site-value tax in their election manifesto;
3) Members of those parties were elected on the basis of their manifestos.
4) The property tax as introduced does not comply with the stated intent of either party.
LOL
Of course not.
This is Ireland. The government are exempt from keeping their word.
Get with the programme!
They certainly behave as if they’re exempt from any sort of honesty! Rabbitte’s disgraceful comments about breaking campaign promises shows that quite clearly (as if proof were needed!!).
But are they exempt – it’s a real question!!
If they could be proven to be in breach of contract, perhaps that could lead to criminal charges. And we don’t allow TDs with criminal records, so perhaps that would be a path to ridding us of this dishonest shower. Just a thought….
Neither party attained an overall majority and therefore compromised on the Programme for Government. That contains the promises by which they’re now bound. Next time vote in sufficient numbers for one or the other if you want to see a manifesto implemented verbatim.
Agreed, the fact that it’s a coalition does muddy the waters.
However, both parties (independently) stated that they would not introduce the property tax that they did introduce.
Did either party get into the nuts and bolts of a property tax in their manifestos? Bottom line is that the previous government signed up to a property tax in 2010 with the Troika and had actually agreed to increase it in 2012.
Yes, they both did go into that detail.
From the FG manifesto:
Fianna Failâs proposal, now endorsed by the Labour Party, to introduce by 2014 an annual, recurring residential property tax on the family home is unfair.
…
[W]e will empower local authorities to put in place, following the 2014 local elections, fairer alternatives to Fianna Failâs and Labourâs recurring annual tax on the family home.
If you have a house in shared ownership ie the council and you. And the Council own the majority share of about 70/80%. How much do they pay? :) At the moment the person cannot even afford to pay the mortgage.
Will people be required to sell their homes to pay the tax if they cannot pay it any other way? And are too young to avail of the deferral scheme?
Who is it that decides what the value of the house is? Is it revenue? I can’t sell mine for 135000 so what happens if they estimate it for more than that? Also do we have to pay anything for the first half of the year?
Why in gods name would someone red thumb a genuine question…. I swear some people on this baffle me!!
Revenue decide. If you don’t agree, there is an appeal mechanism. I would presume the auctioneers evaluation would be taken as the value though.
Why don’t the just collect all these new taxes together and call them POLL TAX. Well done Enda Kenny, Maggie Thatcher would be so proud of you !!!
He’s not fit to even grovel at her feet,
Which considering that sub human heartless b*tch isn’t fit to grovel at the feet of a single called amoeba, that is some statement.
There is a legal challenge not everyone is a roll over no need for any one to pay it. Also protest meeting in redcow today
That will definitely work alright!
Is a house boat /tree house/mobile home/covered?
Ah yes I missed it in the PDF, all are exempt…….so off to the canal/woods and hi ways of Ireland…..
You left out Doll House.
and underground bunker
This tax will put a stop to home owners wanting to make improvments or adding on to their homes
I doubt 250 euro would deter somebody willing to pay a lot more for home improvements
There’s an exemption to allow for that.
Hi hugh. Honest question here.
I live in an unfinished estate that is not on the recognised list of unfinished estates.
All houses are built but not being lived in. The developer has to finish the road surfacing and some street lights and there are problems with sewers levels etc.
The county council won’t take the estate over as by their own admission “it is not finished” but yet they say we are liable for the household charge.
My question this. is there an appeals process to challenge the charge based on individual estates and an admission by the Co. Co. that they won’t take it over as it’s unfinished.
Plus the developer(s) is broke. Gone. Two brothers who were barmen that inherited family farm.
i think everyone should have to pay towards local services. It’s not just mortgage holders or home owners that use local services. luckily we’ll only be paying ?45 compared to ?100 last year.
That’s not what it’s for
tell that to local authorities who budgets have been cut in accordance with levels of non payment of household charge.
Am I just paying to keep up the lifestyle of the council house tenants across from me? You know the ones that don’t work, go out every week end, kids have the best of clothes and shoes, plenty of holidays a year? While I can’t put the heating on? Is that what it’s going for?
I paid my property tax 5 years ago.
A total of €26,000.(stamp duty)
So I think I’ve already paid my share.
How councils and government spent it is not my fault.
Is the tax for all groups in society, social housing, haunting sites, people in state owned houses or is it just the working class that are been asked to pay?
Who lives on haunting sites? The ghosts of Travellers?
I’d like to know how many people going “I don’t want to pay, and I’m not going to and nor should you.” actually are required to pay,.
Why are people who bother to buy a home and pay their mortgage every month suffering this tax when the ones who don’t bother and get all their income from welfare don’t???? This is an unjust tax and I have to say disgusts me.
Just bought a house in October, price paid is the true value so can revenue decide otherwise?
Yes, but there is a mechanism for appeal.
Where can I find you on the revenue and coco website James? Is there an office I can call into to see you in person. And when did the open thread turn into the ask James thread. Do you have the answer to why we exist?
Ryan, most of the answers are in the public domain already.
You’ll find me under the PAYE section of revenue, as usual! :)
And if estate agents estimate was lower than we paid we’d have good grounds to appeal?
With the assumption that its realistic. Validating a house at €10K probably would result in you being inspected for tax fraud!
I want to see my hard-earned property tax put to verifiably good use in my own community. I also want it to go towards additional activities rather than plugging random income gaps in my local authority’s budgetary black hole. Precisely what types of “local services” – aside from those we already pay for from income tax, many of which have been removed in recent years – will it finance?
Why are people being punished for hard work while the spongers avoid yet another tax?
I bought in 07 for 241,000 a similar house in the estate sold for 57,000 in 2012 how the hell do I value my house.
Value it at what it would make if you were to sell it now.
value it between 0-100k so pay 45 this year and 90 next year!
Who made James Connolly an expert on the property tax considering he works in nursing?
Maybe he made himself aware. By being vigilant and living in the world.
Yeah! Constructive answers and informed comments have no place here – it’s for people to say the guv’ment are crooks and f*ck you Enda!
You’re right, what do nurses know apart from holding bedpans and hands, sure I’m only a ditzy nurse who knows nothing.
The questions I answered were in the general public realm.
As well as any unpaid household charge, will any unpaid NPPR be added to the LPT? It states on the NPPR website that any unpaid charges and fines will become a charge on the property for up to 12 years, does that mean that after 12 years any unpaid NPPR will be no longer due?
I hate paying the management company ,, dont know why it has to be payed twice property tax and management fees ,,,, the flippers
Is this charge a yearly charge or a 1 off.
A yearly charge. Taxed for 6mths this year, kicks in for the whole year next year. Councils get the right to decide rates at some point after that I believe.
Will my holiday be eligible for household tax?
If your holiday is your home, and you don’t fit in with one of the exemptions then yeah, it’ll be eligible.
what about his villa in Hawaii?
Is his villa in Hawaii in The Republic of Ireland?
There is no such country as the Republic of Ireland. Article 4 of the constitution prescribes that the state will be known as Éire or in the English language, Ireland.
But it is described in the Constitution as a republic. So, if he’d made the ‘R’ in ‘republic’ lower case, you’d have spared him your pedantry?
Knob!
If u can’t pay your full mortgage due to pay cuts, and inflation and your on Intererst only, where your literally taking food off the child to even cover that, how are you suppose to pay the tax???? Should we go hungry for a few weeks to cover it? How long can the human body live without food? Anyone know?
Body can live without food for quite a long time. Weeks. Months if you’re on relevant supplements. Saline. There’s a lot to be said for it.
cancel your internet connection?
Karolyn, you need to get yourself down to MABS asap if your budgeting skills are so poor that you can’t afford to part with €500 a year.
All I know about the property tax is I ain’t paying! When I see bankers been jailed then il pay.
I confess that I know very little about the Property Tax.
My interest is in what will be done with the revenues obtained. Will the revenues go into the Central Exchequer and be routed back, in part or in whole, to local authorities or will the revenues go immediately and directly to the local authority for the area in which the revenues are collected.
If the revenues are going into the central exchequer, will the revenues be ring fenced for the purpose of local authority services and for no other purpose?
Or will the property tax revenues be used in whole or in part to fund central government expenditure, for example, Ministerial salaries and pensions, generous rewards for retiring senior ranking civil servants for their wonderful management of the economy and public finances?
In short, what will be done with the revenues raised?
If you look at the amounts to be raised you can see that really all that is happening is that the government will take your money and pay the local authorities with that while the monies raised in direct taxation on income, which was used to fund local, authorities will now be used to pay off other people gambling debts, ie bond holders
@ Paul Rooney. Thank’s very much. That makes sense in a sad sort of way.
As long as the banks, speculators, bond holders, politicians and senior civil servants are looked after, the rest of us can sing for our suppers.
Are those my feet?
I’ve no problem with the payment of the property tax per say but it’s the hard work of distributing the money to local authorities and making sure the roads,lights,play areas get the full funding not going into wages of local administrators. This debate hasn’t started yet but is critical !!!
We have had some great times in pur house. Will revenue look for our Treasured Memories photo album to add on an SVT (sentimental value tax)?
Why should people pay when they do not Owen there house yet as the banks Owen them the banks should pay this
Who is Owen? In all seriousness you do own your property, the back have a legal charge secured against it relating to money that they have lent.
Who is Owen? In all seriousness you do own your property, the back have a legal charge secured against it relating to money that they have lent.
Who are the back? Don’t you just hate when you are trying to be a pedantic smart arse and you make a similar error yourself?
Yes I do, it detracts from the serious point that I was making that you do own your property, the bank just have an interest in it.
Reply to John King, John in the follow up budgets down the road with this government looking for money from every source you can be sure this house tax will be revisted then we will all understand what a backpeddling claw back bunch we have in power.
Is there an expert to answer questions or just guesswork answers?
I live in a large apartment development. A quick search on Daft shows 4 apartments for sale the same as mine with prices varying from €90k to €195k. Pick the lower value, get fined for underpayment, pick the higher value and pay too much, which I doubt you’d ever see back in a tax adjustment. what are the penalties for under declaration? I presume a good faith declaration be appealed? If I value my property pay the tax, then sell it for more than I valued it at (hurrah less neg equity for me to pay off) can I declare the under valuement and pay what is owed without penalty?
Define a house“`for example if the windows are all boarded up is it a house? if there is no bathroom, or kitchen, is it a house?. if there is no roof is it a house.
mailto:susan@golfvacationsireland.com
Question, house next door sold for €225k.
We recently added extension at a cost of €40k, was told that we will never make money back on work like this when we go to sell house, is it reasonable to assume total if less than €250k?
Does a house in an unfinished estate need to pay property tax?
No, if it’s officially recognised as an unfinished estate. Same as with the Household Charge.
What happens to the “home owner” when you don’t pay it? Do the government effectively own the property?
Revenue takes it at source.
You don’t want to mess with revenue. They won’t like that. They’re like the kid who takes monopoly way too seriously and remembers everything.
Hang on… If revenue take it at source.. That means it taken from gross pay thus a tax saving… If we willingly pay are we paying at net, thus costing us more? Have I got this wrong? Are we paying this tax pre or post tax? If post then surely don’t pay and allow them to take at source thus benefiting from tax incentive?
Oh Paul you silly goose
You must agree to a deduction at source and it would be deduced after income tax is deducted.
You don’t have to agree to a deduction at source – it’s in the legislation.
@Tony
They will not take it at source. They will however add the tax with interest to a final payment if you decide to sell your house after anumber of years.
If you pass your house on to your children the tax and interest will follow. Unfortunately there is no real way to escape this tax.
meh
have your say