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Kevin McCarthy speaks to reporters hours after he was ousted as speaker of the house J Scott Applewhite/AP/PA Images

'Be careful what you wish for': Both Republicans and Democrats may live to regret axing speaker

The ousting of speaker Kevin McCarthy is seen as a “big victory” for the hard-right, but at what cost?

KEVIN MCCARTHY WAS axed as Speaker of the US House of Representatives last night in an unprecedented move that signals deep divisions in the Republican Party.

The dramatic events mark the first time in the House’s 234-year history that a speaker was ousted.

Democrats wanted McCarthy gone but it was one of his own party members, Matt Gaetz, who forced the vote to happen.

Gaetz, a Trump loyalist from Florida, and a number of other far-right Republicans accused McCarthy of a string of broken promises and were furious at his cooperation with Democrats.

Gaetz gambled that he could oust McCarthy with just a few Republicans, helped by Democrats who wanted to see McCarthy gone after he recently opened a highly politicised impeachment inquiry into President Joe Biden.

The effort succeeded, by 216 votes to 210, plunging the Republican-controlled House into chaos.

McCarthy’s ousting came just days after the House and Senate passed a measure to avert a costly government shutdown — both with big bipartisan majorities — by extending federal funding through to mid-November.

Conservatives were furious, seeing their chances dashed for forcing massive budget cuts.

They accused McCarthy of a flip-flop, saying he’d promised an end to hastily prepared stopgap legislation, hammered out with the support of the opposition, and a return to budgeting through the committee process.

For their part, a number of Democrats labelled McCarthy as “untrustworthy”.

Congressional Progressive Caucus chairwoman Pramila Jayapal, a leading leftist, vowed to let Republicans “wallow in their pigsty of incompetence” rather than rescue the speaker.

McCarthy, who was only in the role for nine months, accused Gaetz of having a personal vendetta against him because he refused to intervene in a congressional investigation into Gaetz’s conduct.

The House ethics committee is leading an ongoing inquiry into Gaetz over allegations of sexual misconduct, including sex trafficking and sex with a minor, illicit drug use and misuse of campaign funds.

Screenshot 2023-10-04 11.00.17 Matt Gaetz answers questions from members of the media earlier this week Jacquelyn Martin / AP/PA Images Jacquelyn Martin / AP/PA Images / AP/PA Images

Speaking after his ejection, McCarthy said: “I ended up being the 55th speaker of the House — one of the greatest honors. I loved every minute.

“And the one thing I will tell you is doing the right thing isn’t always easy, but it is necessary. I don’t regret standing up for choosing governance over grievance.”

Gaetz last night said: “The reason Kevin McCarthy went down today is because nobody trusts Kevin McCarthy. [He] has made multiple contradictory promises, and when they all came due, he lost.”

Suffice to say, it’s a mess.

Regrets on both sides?

McCarthy’s ousting laid bare the chaotic levels of infighting among Republicans heading into the 2024 presidential election, with its likely candidate Donald Trump making history of his own as the only former or sitting president to face criminal indictment.

So, what does last night’s historic vote mean for the Republican Party and, indeed, the Democrats?

Larry Donnelly, The Journal’s political columnist, said both parties may live to regret ousting McCarthy despite their grievances with him.

“From the outset, it’s unexpected. I didn’t think this was going to happen, if you said to me a week ago this would happen I would have been very surprised.

Partly because I didn’t anticipate the Democrats voting en masse in agreement with Matt Gaetz, arguably the most radical and ethically-challenged member of the House Republicans.

Republican hardliners had tried doggedly to block McCarthy from getting the job back in January, forcing him to go through 15 rounds of votes until he finally made enough concessions to appease them and win approval.

McCarthy had such a narrow majority that his tenure as speaker was always “on shaky ground”, Donnelly explained.

“The reality is that the majority is so narrow that it made his position, ultimately, untenable. The big concession he had to make to get elected speaker was he had to say, ‘Look, just one person can make a motion to vacate the speakership’. So he was going to be on shaky ground from day one.”

‘A poisoned chalice’

Focus has now turned to who will replace McCarthy.

“It’s a poisoned chalice,” Donnelly stated, noting that whoever succeeds McCarthy will also have “really, really difficult” time dealing with the hard-right caucus.

“That person’s job is going to be pretty tough as well because he or she has to placate those people on the hard right,” Donnelly said. 

So it’s not a good day for the Republican Party, it’s not a good day for the Congress, it’s not a good day for American politics. It’s really a sad state of affairs.

The election of a new speaker could be contentious and involve several rounds of voting like it did for McCarthy back in January.

“The problem with trying to figure out the motives of some of those on the hard right is they actually don’t care.

“They really don’t care about the longer term political repercussions, but you would think that what they would do is, behind closed doors, reach some sort of settlement around who they can propose as the nominee, who is somebody that’s palatable to all sides,” Donnelly said. 

House Majority Leader Steve Scalise from Louisiana has emerged as the favourite to replace McCarthy, but the fact he is currently receiving treatment for cancer could complicate matters.

“Scalise for a whole range of reasons would seem to me to make the most sense, because Gaetz et al have said that he’s acceptable to them, and he’s reasonably well liked across the party,” Donnelly explained.

He added that someone like Patrick McHenry – who was put in place as acting speaker last night – could temporarily fill the role in a bid to appease different factions.

Screenshot 2023-10-04 13.36.41 Patrick McHenry talks to reporters hours before Kevin McCarthy was ousted Mark Schiefelbein / AP/PA Images Mark Schiefelbein / AP/PA Images / AP/PA Images

“What could happen – and this has been floated because of the health issues – is the idea that they might appoint somebody as almost a caretaker speaker, for instance, Patrick McHenry… On the understanding that effectively Steve Scalise, once his cancer treatment has finished, he will take the job.”

Other names that have been mentioned in terms of a new speaker include House Majority Whip Tom Emmer and Elise Stefanik, a representative from New York.

Regardless of who is chosen, Republicans need to get a move on if they want to avoid a government shutdown.

“They need to get something in motion because the government’s only funded until November 17th. So they need to get something in train really quickly,” Donnelly said.

Election next year

In terms of the division in the Republican Party, Donnelly said it will be interesting to see how Trump will respond to last night’s developments.

The former president remains the favourite to get the Republican nomination for the presidential election next year.

“Trump is still odds-on favourite to be the nominee. How he plays this will be interesting to watch and, indeed, how the other Republican candidates for president react to all this will be interesting to see.”

McCarthy’s ousting is seen as a “big victory” for the hard-right, Donnelly said, but many people in the Republican Party don’t want to be aligned with Gaetz.

Let’s face it, he is still under investigation for sex trafficking. I mean, this is not someone they want to have as the de facto leader of the party on Capitol Hill. So I think some very difficult conversations are going to unfold.

“I think the extent to which Gaetz and that crowd have big, massive support among the grassroots, I’m just not so sure about that. I think they are kind of an isolated band. Of course, Republican presidential candidates are going to have to be responsive to them, but I think that they have a tricky tightrope to walk.”

Donnelly noted that some high-profile Republicans who have aligned themselves with Gaetz on certain issues supported McCarthy staying in the role.  

“I’ve been told this by people in Washington, that Gaetz is a pretty crazy guy.

“Let’s put it this way – we know that people like Lauren Boebert and Marjorie Taylor Greene, not even the two of them went along with this, which tells you just how extreme Gaetz and the others are.”

Abortion

Trump recently received backlash from within his own party after he appeared to, once again, somewhat change his stance on abortion restrictions.

Last month Trump said the six-week abortion ban in Florida was “a terrible thing and a terrible mistake”, hitting out at Governor Ron DeSantis, who happens to be one of his presidential nominee rivals.

During the interview in question, on NBC’s Meet the Press, presenter Kristen Welker pressed Trump on whether or not he would support a 15-week federal ban on abortion, to which he replied, “I’m not going to say I would or I wouldn’t”.

Screenshot 2023-10-04 13.38.15 Donald Trump pictured in court this week Seth Wenig, Pool / AP/PA Images Seth Wenig, Pool / AP/PA Images / AP/PA Images

Donnelly said Trump’s apparent move on the contentious issue is “fascinating”.

“One of the most notable things that Trump has done recently, we see him moving to the middle on a couple of things, in particular, on abortion. I find it fascinating.

“So I wonder just how he’s going to do all of this. And of course, he has to be mindful that Gaetz is one of his most enthusiastic backers. So it’s not a scenario that any of them really, I think, could have wanted.”

Trump — who is facing 91 felony charges and was in court in New York yesterday as a defendant in a civil fraud trial — berated Republicans on his social media platform for “always fighting among themselves”. Tellingly, though, he offered no support for McCarthy.

What about the Democrats?

Donnelly said it was interesting to watch the Democrats align themselves with Gaetz and other hardline Republicans on the McCarthy issue.

Yes, they had some valid frustrations with the speaker, but will they ultimately come to regret their decision?

“Did the Democrats make the right call politically speaking in voting with Matt Gaetz? I have a big question mark over that,” Donnelly said, wondering why they didn’t abstain instead.

They could have said, ‘This is an internal Republican matter’. They could have said, ‘Look at the infighting, we’re respecting the traditions of the House, they have the majority, this is an internal matter for them to decide. Look how dysfunctional they are, look how crazy they are. Meanwhile, we’re the grown ups.’

“That could have been, politically speaking, very effective,” Donnelly said.

“I think, even though she is not in leadership anymore, (former speaker) Nancy Pelosi was certainly minded that way. But I think the rank and file [Democrats] really gave it to them and said, ‘Look, we’re sick of McCarthy, we can’t deal with him anymore, we want him gone’.

“And so I think that’s why they went the way they did. Politically speaking, how that’s going to cut in the long term will be interesting to see.”

Donnelly said even though many Democrats didn’t trust McCarthy, he worked with them on preventing the government shutdown. His successor may not be as open to meeting them halfway on certain issues.

In a “worst case scenario” for the Democrats, the new speaker could be “somebody that the Democrats can’t deal with at all… somebody who won’t fund Ukraine, who won’t fund social spending, all of these sorts of things”.

“They could get somebody a lot worse than what they had – which was somebody who was distrustful and duplicitous lots of time – but, let’s face it, he did do a deal with Democrats to keep the government afloat, which I think was significant and it has cost him his job.

“It’s that old maxim, be careful what you wish for.”

Contains reporting from © AFP 2023  

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    Mute Dee4
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:04 AM

    Hitler would be proud, his plan of a Federal Europe run from Berlin is slowly coming together

    425
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    Mute Juan Venegas
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:42 AM

    And it all started with the German reunification, Thacher and Miterrand’s worries were true

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    Mute Andrew O Cionnaith
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:34 PM

    Germany had the second lowest power per person in the EU after France. It has less than 1/7th of the seats in the parliament. It’s a powerful voice, but it’s technically under represented so any talk of “rule from Berlin” really is total tripe.

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    Mute Darragh Kelly
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    Dec 8th 2014, 5:12 PM

    Andrew O Cionnaith, The EU parliament has virtually no power at all – it’s a charade, a front to lend democratic legitimacy to the ‘project’… think of it like the senate in the great Galactic Empire in Star Wars!

    49
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    Mute Andrew O Cionnaith
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    Dec 8th 2014, 6:44 PM

    The parliament has only become more powerful with each passing treaty. Just pointing out that this was not what Hitler envisaged in any way. It was more Churchills vision than his and it certainly won’t ever be run, nominally or literally, from any part of Germany. It’s populist nonsense. I’m all for questioning the way the EU project is going but baseless comparisons and ill reasoning do proper debate no good.

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    Mute Karen
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    Dec 8th 2014, 7:20 PM

    Bet you were one of the ones Andrew who said we werent heading for a collapse and that it was all conspiracy, You probably believe the recession is over and their is no rising housing bubble again. Also you probably believe that the euro is not on verge of ka boom.

    24
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    Mute Damian Moylan
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    Dec 8th 2014, 7:34 PM

    The ecb in frankfurt germany rules the roost. They just built an almighty new complex in frankfurt to move into, no shortage of dosh. Ireland has little influence. Most of our legislation comes from brussels. Our banking rules come from frankfurt. We have little to say on this monolithic empire. They promote expansion east to suit multinationals so they can re-locate, slash costs as eastern eu workers are paid peanuts. How is any of this in our interest?

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    Mute Damian Moylan
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    Dec 8th 2014, 7:38 PM

    Ecb adopted a monetary policy that suited germany but was exactly not what ireland needed. If ireland was not in the euro the disastrous economic collapse would not have happened. Again we need a serious debate in this country if euro membership is in our economic interest. I would say based on al objective evidence it is not.

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    Mute Original Cynic
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    Dec 8th 2014, 7:44 PM

    When Britain leaves the EU we should seriously threaten to go with them!

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    Mute Damian Moylan
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    Dec 8th 2014, 8:12 PM

    Original Cynic, despite the worst economic crash in our history i await our handsomely paid academics and leaders to at least debate the issue….does the euro make sense for ireland?

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    Mute Original Cynic
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    Dec 8th 2014, 8:36 PM

    Have always been pro-Europe but their treatment and disdain of the Irish people over the last few years has completely changed my mind. Time to turn the screw!

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    Mute capture3
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:07 AM

    Junker has to resign.

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    Mute Dermot Ryan
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    Dec 8th 2014, 5:07 PM

    The whole thing is a con for the corporations and banks ….
    At least it’s nice to see one former government politician calling it differently tan to when he was in the Dail.

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    Mute Darragh Kelly
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    Dec 8th 2014, 5:08 PM

    Why?

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    Mute Dermot Ryan
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    Dec 8th 2014, 5:18 PM

    Because it further undermines the credibility of the Irish government’s weakness in Europe – and hence begging the question – is it weak governments that have us paying so much for the banking thingymabob – there was an awful lot of Anglo and other loans tied up in property all over Europe and had contributed to building booms in Eastern Europe and the Iberian Penninsula …..and London

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    Mute Bobby Moore
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:08 AM

    But didn’t we “Vote Yes to be at the heart of Europe” in the Lisbon Treaty? Isn’t this what you and Fine Gael wanted all along Brian?

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    Mute Pól Mag Shamhrain
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    Dec 8th 2014, 2:14 PM

    Not fully David.

    Young people aged 18-21 don’t get the minimum wage they get I think a euro less per hour.

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    Mute Dermot Ryan
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    Dec 8th 2014, 2:59 PM

    We voted against conscription in a European army – it was called Lisbon Two ….

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    Mute Patrick Jackman
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:09 AM

    Further demonstates the wisdom of those who argued that we needed to keep our vetoes in a widening and deepening europe.

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    Mute Kate Ellen Egan
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    Dec 9th 2014, 12:19 AM

    Think its time for a referendum on our membership, the EU decimated the fishing industry and has done a hatchet job on the low and middle earners here , now they want to drive the multinationals out and into France and Germany by outlawing our corporation tax and covertly cheerleading the Luxembourg regime , no longer fit for purpose !!!!

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    Mute Kate Ellen Egan
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    Dec 9th 2014, 12:23 AM

    Our politicians are Mr Nice guys and yes men being bullied by their German and French counterparts , it’s Frankfurts’s way all the way …

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    Mute Mick Jenkins
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    Dec 9th 2014, 7:34 AM

    Not to mention what they did for agriculture or our infrastructure…oh wait!

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    Mute thetruth
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:03 AM

    Yer only copping this now Hayes? 6 and a half years after it happened? Soundings like electioneering to me. Must be an election coming, Hayes sent out there to try snatch a few fg votes

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    Mute Jason Bourne
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:04 AM

    This.

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    Mute Diarmuid
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:32 AM

    Luxleaks broke last month.

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    Mute Chris Kirk
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:45 AM

    Why aren’t our other MEP’s speaking up on this…most of them we havn’t even heard from since they were elected

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    Mute Brenda Malloy
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:49 AM

    they’re only standing up for votes for FG and Labour; too bad they didn’t stand up for the plain people of Ireland back in the day

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    Mute thetruth
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:00 PM

    Because Chris, the others don’t want to look stupid. By admitting the bleeding obvious they’d get theirs proverbialy handed to them on a plate in the next election. Fg along with labour have most to lose

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    Mute Ignoreland
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:14 PM

    You do realise Hayes only got elected as an MEP back in June, right?

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    Mute thetruth
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:51 PM

    You do realise hayes got voted in in 2011 and was in government, on the front bench for over 2 years before his european election Ignoreland. Sorry for the criticism of your beloved fg, won’t happen again. Yeh right

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    Mute Ignoreland
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    Dec 8th 2014, 4:51 PM

    You’re an idiot, thetruth if you think I’m an FG supporter.
    But I hate stupid arguments that say “Oh why didn’t you say this 4 years ago?” Or “too little, too late” – that’s called moving the goalposts. Basically the government can’t win whatever they do.
    BUT in any case, you’ll find a commitment to keep Ireland’s corporate tax rate at 12.5% in the FG and Labour manifestos from 2011. You’ll also find repeated references to it throughout their entire period in government. So no, this isn’t just a once off rant in the run up to an election.
    I don’t mind people criticising the Government when they’ve actually dropped the ball, but criticising them over things they haven’t even done is just pathetic.

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    Mute ITsLaraMarlowe
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    Dec 8th 2014, 5:06 PM

    Wasn’t he Minister of State? That’s closer than me to Government, but not front bench

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    Mute von
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    Dec 8th 2014, 5:31 PM

    Ignoreland. The government have always sold us cheap.

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    Mute Chris Kirk
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    Dec 8th 2014, 5:38 PM

    That makes a difference from the ‘let them eat cheese’ from the last government.

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    Mute Chris Kirk
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    Dec 8th 2014, 5:42 PM

    You mean that the others are still trying to find their way around the corridors of power…..

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    Mute Thomas Mac
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    Dec 8th 2014, 5:49 PM

    He was Noonan’s pube clipper aka Junior Minister in Finance

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    Mute Ignoreland
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    Dec 8th 2014, 5:55 PM

    Also, “thetruth” has to be the most Orwellian username I’ve ever seen. Although I don’t think that was intentional.

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    Mute Karen
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    Dec 8th 2014, 7:22 PM

    They didnt say this before because they said it before the before. No need to repeat themselves.

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    Mute Coco McDee
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:08 AM

    If we had a strong government, loyal to their own people, they would stand up to Europe. We have only lackies to do their bidding and then get rewarded for it like Phil Hogan

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    Mute John Mcloughlin
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:23 AM

    Time to tell these big fellows to f&&k off

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    Mute Stephen Carroll
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:33 AM

    You can tell them, but they won’t listen

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    Mute Coco McDee
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:05 AM

    Ireland getting kicked around by FG government. We never needed to have water charges imposed, FG WANT to do it !

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    Mute James Comiskey
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:22 AM

    @coco water charges were part of the fg pre election manifesto yet people voted on mass for fg .

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    Mute NoddyFingers
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:59 AM

    @ James, lots of things were part of the FG pre election manifesto yet only those that screw the less well off have been implemented.

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    Mute ciaran mccall
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:03 PM

    james its seems to be the only promise they did keep!

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    Mute Joseph O'Regan
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:18 AM

    The people living in this country are sick of being kicked around by the Establishment FF,FG,Labour the Church and senior civil servants.
    See you on Wednesday !

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    Mute Dave cullen
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:07 AM

    Man of the people hayes!
    You asked the Irish people to “inform on their neighbours”.
    Pitting neighbour against neighbour says everything about this particular breed of politician.
    Too little too late!!

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    Mute Mike
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:21 AM

    So much for the free open market.

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    Mute Sheik Yahbouti
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    Dec 8th 2014, 3:27 PM

    Would this be the same Brian Hayes who was a huge cheerleader for every single austerity imposition made by this Government? Is it the same Brian Hayes who forcefully promoted the Fiscal Compact Treaty, which bound this country forever more to submitting its’ budgets to Brussels for approval? Is it the same Brian Hayes….etc., etc.,I’ve a pain in me arse. It just so happens that he is correct on this pronouncement, but loses all credit for it by reason of his past subservience. I have been an enthusiastic “European” for many years now, but have now to eat crow as I realise that the European ideal has been subsumed into the same old Plutocracy and Right is Might ethos that the union was meant to free us from. All are NOT equal in this union of ours, and sadly this means the union as it stands must now fall. We must retreat to being a strong trading bloc, from hereon in.

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    Mute Damian Moylan
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    Dec 8th 2014, 7:47 PM

    Sheik, i like these recent statements from hayes but agree with you. Problem is when u live in eire u have no idea whats going on in brussels. I lived in NL for 10 years close to the action and we got lots of news and scandals from brussels. U wouldnt believe what goes on there. The accountants havent even signed off their books in over 20 years. A dutch accountant whistleblower wrote a best selling book about the corruption and was duly fired from the commission. As more and more powers go to brussels the more acute the democratic deficit becomes. Brussels is rotten and it is time we got some real news in this country. One french senior mep gave 10mil of economic research funds to a paris based consultancy run by her daughter and thats only the tip of the iceberg.

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    Mute Kate Ellen Egan
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    Dec 9th 2014, 12:25 AM

    Animal Farm Sheik

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    Mute leartius
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:39 AM

    We are paying over 2 billion each year to Europe. If we are not an equal partner in Europe this money should be withheld but enda knows best and as usually we will drive their cars, survive on their food. Ireland the cash cow that keeps on giving, pat on the head every now and again. Do we really know the value of anything or have we discovered how to eat money.

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    Mute Stephen Carroll
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:30 AM

    Our acceptence of the Nice Treaty has really nailed us to the wall here. With low representation in EU Parlimentary decison making this is probably a sad reality to come.

    Especially with countries like Romania and Greece and Spain with relatively high populations but poorly performing economies they would vote in favor of this while the lower ranked members, us , Denmark, Finland and pretty much most of the Eastern bloc would get together it wouldn’t be enough to sway the vote.

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    Mute Ignoreland
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:16 PM

    Please point to the provision of the Lisbon Treaty that says we have to harmonise our corporate tax please??
    That’s right. It’s not in there. Because Ireland has a veto over any proposed move.

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    Mute Stephen Carroll
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:29 PM

    Hmmm if only Europe had something to Irelands by the b*lls over…… Hmmmm……

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    Mute Stephen Carroll
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:30 PM

    hold Ireland by the balls over *

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    Mute John Kinsella
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:38 PM

    It’s quite simple. Ireland should leave the EU. – I voted against entry – and tell them to get lost. We won’t disappear any faster than we are at the moment.

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    Mute Uncle Mort
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:56 AM

    The EUSSR is all about big government which sucks the lifeblood of its citizens. The EUSSR is a combination of UN Agenda 21 [ the Global plan for us to live on the level of third world nations ] and the Common Purpose control freak fetish. Agenda 21 outlines, in detail, the UN’s vision for a completely managed society, dictating the processes to be used for industry, agriculture, housing development and education.
    Now think about the taxes and levies and ‘fines’ we are already paying to support this 4th Reich. Do you drive ? How do the goods at your local shop get there ? How do you heat your home? Tax upon tax upon tax.

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    Mute Stephen Carroll
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:28 PM

    Okay maybe its the boring Treaty talk but I don’t see anything in their manifesto to cripple the world’s economy and rule them all like the Slave King’s of olden times.

    And are you suggesting that everyone shirks their repsonibility to pay tax? Cus like I’m not against the idea to not paying tax but if you think you not paying tax might upset the balance of power the UN holds I don’t think you’ll get very far.

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    Mute Stephen Carroll
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:44 PM

    Also, I really don’t give in to these beliefs that the UN and FEMA are trying to treat people like cattle, I mean I’m sure they’d love to but I just can’t believe a faction of government to be anywhere near that efficient even with like assassinations and NSA and CIA support I just don’t think a group of people paid by the government are capable of taking over the world.

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    Mute Hevin Bear Kiggins
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    Dec 8th 2014, 2:19 PM

    Nice spin by FG to make it appear they are euro skeptic, which was the basis that got many meps elected. I smell an election coming

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    Mute Mick Kirwan
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    Dec 8th 2014, 2:51 PM

    who cares what this creep says …. a few years ago he was stabbing inda in the back …. then jumps in to bed with him on a power trip …… shallow self-seeking grabber

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    Mute Trevor Curley
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:29 PM

    Well dont count on any irish politicians to stand up to Europe .All a bunch of cowards.

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    Mute Martin Hayes
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    Dec 8th 2014, 1:32 PM

    Germany and France are European when it suits Germany and France, problem is everybody else is expected to be European when it suits Germany and France.

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    Mute Tracey Nally
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:16 PM

    Er that’s not exactly breaking news to the thinking person, Brian!!!

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    Mute von
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    Dec 8th 2014, 5:26 PM

    And Enda thought he was playing with the big boys, that will teach him

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    Mute David Burke
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    Dec 8th 2014, 2:15 PM

    That PWC report is a load of shite, they get paid to lie anyway. We sorta are a massive enabler of corporate tax evasion.

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    Mute James Reardon
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    Dec 8th 2014, 5:45 PM

    Their all corrupt fcukers right across the board. Snakey fcukers

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    Mute Rob O'Brien
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    Dec 8th 2014, 1:09 PM

    DOWN WITH THE UNION!!!

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    Mute stuohy
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    Dec 8th 2014, 11:37 AM

    The dogma of the 12.5% tax rate being vital to our success really makes us not think clearly on what matters. The 12.5 % has only been around since 2002 don’t forget. I wrote this blog the other day on this . http://dossing.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/is-maintaining-museums-more-important.html?m=1

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    Mute Jake Race
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:11 PM

    You make some good points, but I think you fail to take into account the location of many of the big multinationals. Off the top of my head I can name the following that are not even based in the city centre:

    Microsoft – Sandyford/Leopardstown
    Ebay/PayPal – Blanchardstown
    Symantec – Blanchardstown
    Intel – Leixlip

    I’d add that Dublin needs to start building suitable accommodation for nerds. I’m one of these nerds you’re talking about and you could not pay me enough to live in Dublin’s city centre. The accommodation on offer is mostly old, cramped, overpriced and cold (thanks to Dublin’s strange obsession with storage heaters). We have a city centre increasingly hostile to drivers despite the fact that it constantly rains here. Lets be clear, I am not going to cycle in the f*&king rain every day.

    As far as I’m concerned the only viable option for me is to not live or work in the city centre and I have plenty of options.

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    Mute Stephen Carroll
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:19 PM

    I’d really suggest going back over the CSS of that blog and updating it. It’s a little hard to read.

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    Mute stuohy
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:54 PM

    Hi fair point on the css will see what i can do. Haven’t really used the blog in a while.

    Also fair points on the location of some firms away from the city centre. But i think even those are still living off Dublin and wouldn’t set-up around Longford etc or indeed reluctantly do so in other non English speaking EU countries . But the main purpose of the piece was to suggest that factors other than tax exist in Ireland’s favour. Not suggesting that doubling corp tax would achieve much, as I think their tax affairs are far more mobile then their employees. But we need to start realizing that presuming it’s about tax means we might ignore some of the real reasons.

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    Mute Jake Race
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    Dec 8th 2014, 1:36 PM

    That depends how much money the gov. and industry were willing to invest in Longford.

    Silicon Valley didn’t spring up in the middle New York city or LA.

    The biggest problem with the Irish model, and why it will never compete with Silicon Valley, is the complete and utter lack of innovation. We’re all about attracting existing established and completely ignore innovative indigenous start-ups.

    The real talent isn’t attracted by Google or Microsoft. Startups turn truly talented programmers and engineers into millionaires.

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    Mute Jake Race
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    Dec 8th 2014, 1:38 PM

    ” We’re all about attracting existing established and completely ignore innovative indigenous start-ups.”

    should be

    ” We’re all about attracting existing established multinationals and completely ignore innovative indigenous start-ups.”

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    Mute Irene Moore
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    Dec 8th 2014, 1:42 PM

    I think the css is ok, But you linked the home version of the blog. If you scroll down to the end of the blog page you should see two button’s in the center the top one says (home) beneath that it says (view web version) click (view web version) and you should see a more centered version of your blog. This give the link address as http://dossing.blogspot.ie/2014/12/is-maintaining-museums-more-important.html?m=0. It can happen if you are using a mobile.

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    Mute Irene Moore
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    Dec 8th 2014, 1:44 PM

    That was too….. stuohy.

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    Mute stuohy
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    Dec 8th 2014, 2:27 PM

    Hi Jake. Silicon Valley sprung up essentially as an offshoot of Stanford University, from where it still gets a lot of its innovators from. It is also outside San Fran which is a very different type of city to NY or LA alot more “cool”. It was also from an off shoot of Shockley of the transistor fame who came out of Stanford. There was little or not much government interference in the creation of Silicon valley and few if any country has managed to replicate a Silicon valley by government investment as far as I am aware.

    The problem with Longford nice as it is, is that it is not somewhere I’d imagine lots of “nerds” would like to move to mainly because it is probably too quiet. And without that critical mass of “nerds” I don’t think you can really recreate that type of place. Another issue with Longford is it lacks a world leading university to drive the innovation. (Something Dublin also really lacks)

    Now I would agree there is an over reliance on attracting foreign investment in Ireland. That is probably not aided by things like the bankruptcy laws. But I think there is also a cultural thing. Americans are just more gun-ho about life in general and more likely to take a risk than in Ireland. We are probably more conservative. But I think that is an another debate and one I personally don’t have an answer too.

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    Mute Jake Race
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    Dec 9th 2014, 11:22 AM

    Ireland and Europe don’t know the first thing about fostering innovation. The US has a programme in place designed to encourage highly innovative (high-uncertainty) startups. I say high-uncertainty and not high-risk, because risk by definition requires that the degree of uncertainty be quantifiable. Startups entering entirely new areas of technology do not have quantifiable risk. This type of innovation is not suitable for even angel investors for that reason, but it is the source of all of the most innovative new products.

    The EU attempted to replicate the success of the US model, but of course through political interference they completely screwed it up.

    The main differences are as follows:
    1) The US model has multiple points of entry. So if your application is rejected due to a decision-maker not being able to see the innovator’s vision, another application can be made to a different agency where a different person will make the decision. The EU model has a single point of entry, once you’re rejected you’re out.

    2) The US model does not put force the innovator to risk his own money. They want to encourage those who fail to try again, rather than offer a disincentive through potential personal losses. The EU model requires the innovator to trump up their own cash for a considerable percentage of the project.

    There is a reason that almost all innovation since WWII globally has come from the USA.

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    Mute Siobhan Meade
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    Dec 8th 2014, 6:22 PM

    Hardly a shock that . This government has let Europe kick us about on everything. No fine Gael did not get majority for a government that’s why we have labour so they did not get a majority vote for there water tax .

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    Mute Rose Shanahan
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    Dec 8th 2014, 6:57 PM

    We didn’t need Brian Hayes to go to Europe to tell us that!

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    Mute stuohy
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:47 PM

    Hi fair point on the css will see what i can do. Haven’t really used the blog in a while.
    Also fair points on the location of some firms away from the city center. But i think even those are still living off Dublin and wouldn’t setup around Longford etc or indeed reluctantly do so in other non English speaking EU countries . But the main purpose of the piece was to suggest that factors other the tax exist in Ireland’s favour. Not suggesting that doubling corp tax would achieve much, as i think their tax affairs are far more mobile then their employees. But we need to start realizing that presuming it’s about tax means we might ignore some of the real reasons.

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    Mute stuohy
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:54 PM

    Sorry this is in the wrong place.

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    Mute CMac59
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    Dec 8th 2014, 12:57 PM

    It is all about tax exemptions and the loose and fast way the Revenue Commissioners allow multi-nationals to do business in or through Ireland. With these companies, it IS all about the profit margin. And that is the fact of the matter.

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    Mute stuohy
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    Dec 8th 2014, 1:09 PM

    I talked about that in the link I had posted further up the page. To put it quickly. Many companies use Ireland’s tax exemptions. Many of them do so in the IFSC with a small office and a letter box. There is no stipulation in the Irish Tax exemptions as far as I am aware that require you to employ a few 1000 people to avail of them. So why don’t they simply employ 1 person in the IFSC avail of all the tax breaks, why go to the bother of putting their EU headquarters in Dublin employing Software engineers in Dublin? It would be silly thing to do if Tax was your only concern. Do the companies employ 1000s of engineers in the Cayman Islands? No, they don’t they employ a handful of accountants that is it.

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    Mute Gus Sheridan
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    Dec 28th 2014, 9:47 AM

    We have to leave the EU, better to jump before the whole rotton structure breaks down

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    Mute Mylo Lacey
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    Dec 8th 2014, 7:16 PM
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    Mute Will G.
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    Dec 8th 2014, 1:44 PM

    Yes but taxes have increased so much in France that ppl don’t see any difference :-(

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