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MINISTER FOR PUBLIC EXPENDITURE and reform Brendan Howlin has said his department is not seeking to slash allowances for certain public sector workers that would essentially mean another cut in their pay.
Speaking to the Public Accounts Committee this morning, Howlin said the department’s aim “will be to achieve a simplification in the way we pay these groups and incorporate allowances into core pay.”
The Minister said there were “structural weaknesses and a lack of transparency” in the way that groups like teachers, Gardaí and the defence forces were paid as allowances make up a significant proportion of their total wage.
“It would be neither practical nor reasonable to take away so unilaterally such a large portion of their pay,” he said.
Howlin had said yesterday that 88 allowances would be targeted and abolished but told the committee today that those particular allowances were not a huge part of core pay.
Addressing the committee, the Minister said this is the first time “anybody has drilled down into allowances and the structure of public service pay”.
Howlin said he regarded the Croke Park Agreement as “an extraordinary tool for change” and that most of his EU colleagues would give their right arm to have such an agreement.
Minister of State Brian Hayes said the agreement would allow the department to reform its entire human resources operation to achieve savings of 26 per cent and move towards a more open plan working environment.
Howlin told the committee that changes within the public sector were vital as “frontline services will suffer unless we continue to implement these reforms”.
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Simple way to do this, start with politicians allowances, then very high paid civil servants and so on down the ladder…. Then and only then will you have a bit of support from the lower end of the scale.
However this whole idea of well us politicians need all our expenses but ye must give up ye’res is a load of balls.
14 % pay cuts to FRONT LINE public sector workers in the last 2 years, on top of an extra tax that public sector workers pay that no one else pays. Some people are great at hurling accusations without the information at hand. I
I’m not trying to stir things up here, just curious to know what this extra tax is, that only the public sector pay?
Pension Related Deduction. This is completely separate from public sector pension payment plan. This is paid into a government fund, which they haven’t declared the purpose
@stephan. There’s also this ‘children & spouses’ thing we’ve to pay, it’s a 1.5% tax, it’s compulsory and I’ve never heard of anyone accessing it.
This is a genuine question. How much does Howlin earn?
€169,275 plus allowances / expenses. Basically way to much. Should be brought down to €80k for ministers, €70k for junior ministers and €100k for Enda.
BTW Howlin ruled out reducing ministerial salaries further in August this year.
This is an on line newspaper. Write your question on plain paper and submit it together with a self addressed envelope plus the appropriate stamp to the Office of the Minister. Why do you think you should get your answer on these pages?
eh, no
He looks like he thinking about having a s____
Paddy, I just did. Thanks Kerry for your helpful answer.
There is no way i would do the job of a TD for 70k!!!! Your off your trolley….
Good :-)
Was thinking 65k for TD’s Declan. British MP’s get £65,738 to represent a larger population.
Firstly..thats equates to about 82k…But while we are doing that lets compare the minimum wage the rate of social welfare the average industrial income….compare anything you like and you will find that the UK is significantly below us….Not that its a great model…I’ve lived there and I can tell you if people on the wrong end of the scale think its bad here then go live there for a while… See how long your morgage can be left unpaid before you are turfed out!!!!
Once again Kerry…you are in planet lala land…
Kerry you consistently pull figures and facts out of the air. If you want to halve their salary, then lets halve the dole, halve all the benefits, halve the public sector pay, halve the private sector pay, we’ll see how that gets on
I am sceptical as to if and when these allowances will be stopped. No government will do this…for fear of loss of votes, and also they are cutting the wages of ‘friends’ and colleagues!!!
At this stage I think the only way that this will happen is if the IMF take over and implement the cuts…they have no loyalty to voters/old boys club.
If the govt do it, there will be strikes. A
friend who is a teacher is moaning that she had to ‘work late’ one evening and do a presentation on her work to the school management, that she didnt get
Time in lieu or extra pay for it…first time in her teaching career she had to work past 3pm!!!
There are so many people in the public sector like this…and they will act up!! Look at the number of TDs who came from public service!!
There’s only ONE solution to the ongoing gross inefficiency of the civil service and that’s get rid of them all, all Public & Civil Servants. Outsource the entire mess on a contract basis.
Any Public or Civil Service member will tell you that some of the inefficiencies are criminal. The civil service call the “Board of Works”, the board that doesn’t work.
PS In France parents drop their kids off at school at about 8:00am and the teachers teach them and look after them until about 4:00/4:30pm, then the school, for a very small weekly fee, look after those whose parents both work until about 6:00pm. No childminding issues. Ditto pre-school kids. Saves parents a fortune and makes efficient use of the school buildings.
Right William, cos outsourcing has been such a success for companies like Ulster Bank! You outsource Social Welfare and before long you’ll be ringing Bangalore to find out why you didn’t get your dole. Outsource health and you’ll find they’ll take a look at your wallet before they take a look at you. God knows what kind of people they’d get if the Gardai were outsourced!
Daisy, outsourcing is a successful multi-trillion dollar business around the world. Picking Ulster Bank is cherry picking. I’m quite sure you don’t know what happened at Ulster but if it was a failing with the contractor then they can be fired. We can’t fire underperforming Civil & Public Servants, Guards etc AND that is the problem. You must be living on Jupiter if you think the Guards are efficient (We now outsource some speed traps btw). We can NEVER get efficiency from government departments or staff. It’s impossible. Their inefficiency is why you pay so much tax which is dragging the whole economy down the toilet. Can I ask if you have a vested interest?
William, I’ve often stated I’m in the Civil Service and I make no apology for it either. There’s a lot of bullsh!t spouted about what “should be done” by people who don’t have a clue what goes on in front line service jobs and who believe what they read in the likes of the Indo and the Daily Mail.
Daisy, please don’t insult me by suggesting I read the Mail or the Indo. :)
Many front line service staff do a good job but you’re hardly going to claim in an efficient manner. I’m not blaiming the individuals but the system. Strategic Directors and Management in the civil & public service are emasculated. The HSE is full of dead wood as is all government departments. You hardly deny that do you?
There’s probably a 90% drop in planning applications in the last few years, how many people in the planning departments have been laid off?
Why were perfectly able bodied men & women given the dole when we took in and employed 250,000 skilled and mainly unskilled Poles?
Hope she reads your comment and recognizes you from it…People can do without “friends” like you…
We are all falling for the public vs private argument again. The first cuts that have to be done are to politicians and let them trickle down the pay scale. The government are winning everyday by leaking to the press and turning people against one another when what we need is to stand up and fight. Enough games
Spot on Ed
Just looking at Howlin’s face makes me want to puke. Yesterday he was asked about stopping incriments for Public Sector workers on 100k+ and his answer was that he didn’t think it was fair, He has to be the most incompetent Minister to ever sit in Dail Eireann and thats saying something.
Their solution is always to start from the bottom up when it comes to cuts
@Red Ed, you fail to realise that TD’s salaries are linked to what a principal officer in the public sector earns. There are only 166 TDs (which is too much), but thousands of principal officers and above.
Why can’t we see the difference between front-line workers and the waster crew in the public sector. I for one think nurses guards etc are under paid but the lot sitting in warm cosy offices waiting for their pensions sicken me.
As for teachers they need to work longer hours both in a reduction in holidays ( correcting and managing exams should be complusary ) and clocking in at 9 and out at 5 standard.
and 40 hours average week for all
Public service workers.
I’m a teacher and work from 8am to 5/6pm every day and then come home and correct/plan classes. I also work weekends. Many of my colleagues do the same. Just because we only have so much class-contact time, does not mean there is not a lot else to be done, eg correcting homework, planning classes, phoning parents, meeting parents, chasing up discipline issues, extra-curricular activities. Get your facts straight about our job before you vilify us.
Well said Anne, very easy to judge from the outside without ant knowledge!
*shite* being spouted by idiots like you Mark
People don’t seem to understand that this action plays right into the hands of the ‘public sector worker’ hater and there are enough of them out there. The allowances get folded into pay and the next pay cut will be huge. That the plan and its clear as day. The government can only cut pay at the moment. Now when they fold the allowances into the pay they can have a real crack at the public sector workers. The average public sector worker will be wiped out but all the morons who believe they are paid way to much will be happy and have to find something else to shout about. This is complete wagging the dog but this is Ireland, pathetic hole of a place. Why would you expect anything else here?
Crap, you are completely on the ball there. I can’t believe I didn’t see that. Quite Machiavellian.
Mark that is exactly what will happen …. Well said . No way should front line public servants allowances be touched.
Exactly Eileen. People make no distinction between front line services and the ‘big earners’ within the public service. At the end if the day, the nay-sayers want scalps, so be it but those effected are good people deserving of every penny they receive. The reality for this country is its down to the pennies now for the normal worker, ministers continue to break the salary cap for friends and those who break the law remain as the news news cycle reveals the latest TD sinner. Our front line services are vital and precious beyond measure. Those morons who’s only uneducated chant is “They are all over paid”, will learn if it is all brought crashing down. We are all just people trying to make ends meet.
Absolutely Mark ,
I keep saying that this government have a specific tactic of ”divide and conquer” and people should waken up to this or else we will all suffer. I was a front line worker ( now retired) and people always said to me they did not know how I did my job , Others said it was a ‘vocation’ and no amount of money would pay them to do it .Well no it was a job a good one , but I earned my pay . Leave the allowances alone , Go after the high earners and as Mark says , we are all just trying to make ends meet !
Don’t let anyone tell you that you are wrong Mark we need clear thinkers and speakers .
Good Night !
The sooner the Trioca take over the better. We are borrowing to pay wages for these guys.
these guys? you mean firemen and nurses
and these are the same guys who you would phone when your in trouble.get a life
these are the guys you phone when in trouble.get a life
So the “old” public vs private sector ruse has again risen…when will you people get it..Ibec and Corporate are just kicking back waiting for “Joe” public to turn on themselves, bust the Public Sector Unions and then folks..Forget Minimum Wage…Yeh We’ll have jobs..at Indian or some other third world pay scale!!!As for Frontline Staff..If You have to face the Sh1t that they do..Would you Work for a “Competitive Wage”??..
Ah, the good old allowances.
Bringing allowances into core pay means they will be incrementally increased each year whilst they are currently fixed
Pay scales can easily be adapted to account for that.
At least they’d be taxed
They are taxed as part of gross pay clown
Another pointless exercise and waste of money, the allowances will be taken off them and sneaked back into core pay, which is untouchable. The unions and public service (or self service as they should be know) are still running rings around the government and non public service taxpayer.
Its actually an excellent report and really well put together. Most of the allowances are for employees on the lower pay scales and tbh many should be incorporated in core pay. There are about 15% that I would suggest are sugar on top and are fair game.
Gardai are overpaid. The Gardai need pay cuts and everyone supports cuts to their allowances too.
Everybody earning more than me is overpaid….. etc etc….. Moan Moan Moan..
Give me a realistic figure of how much you think they should be paid a year.
€23,000 and nothing more.
Yeah the Gardai are coining it alright. They didn’t have a pay cut of between 15-20%, they didn’t see their overtime disappear nor did they see their staff numbers reduce to critically low and dangerous levels. They don’t have to drive patrol cars that are deathtraps and they don’t have to work weekends or Christmas etc listening to shot
We are in a recession, if they don’t want to do the job for an affordable rate replace them by new eager recruits currently on the dole. That goes for all public servants.
@ Mark….. LOL
Best of luck finding people to do the 60 hour week they now work for the money they get. You’re a clever boy
It’s handy for the propaganda constantly spouted out like 40% of Public sector workers earn less than 40k, this doesn’t take into account the fact that loads of them only do 3 day weeks and many more have allowances and tax free top ups to bring them well over the 40k, it’s all a con which started with Bertie and the social partnership trick.
Jesus lad, you need a touch of reality.
“Tax free top-ups”?! What the hell are you talking about?!
G, I think you need a stat dose of reality.
@ G
€40K plus for a three day week!?!?
Kop yourself on will ya!!
“An extraordinary tool”…. I couldn’t have put it better myself….
lol nice one Dave.
Argh!!!! cut the allowances and let’s see who these pple are when they take the gov to court. And cut your bloody salaries too you bloody politicians !
If allowances are incorporated into pay, then will that not be increasing the pension entitlement making it a double cost?
I assumed they gave allowances precisely to avoid such a thing..
I suppose they won’t be around to worry about that or the many other cans they are kicking down the road..
Another dim wit that doesn’t know the difference between allowances and expenses. This is what happens when people believe everything they read and hear in the biased media exists on this island. Stations like Newstalk and papers like the indo have done a marvelous job deflecting attention away from the top guys that are cleaning the state out and onto the PS, who despite being one of the smallest in the EU per population does a excellent job for the most part.
an awful lot of public servants on here giving thumbs down to some of the more sensible comments, will you get back to work you lazy gits and stop wasting our hard earned cash !!
G: haha, I’m a public servant but I am on holidays at the moment. As such I have free time to comment. Is that ok with you?
One of your 30 days annual leave Maria or one of your other “entitlement days”?
Maybe a day off to attend a festival that hasn’t been held for 20 years or perhaps time off to bring pay check to the bank even though you’re paid by EFT? :-)
I have to laugh at complaints here that public servants have suffered 10 or even 15% drop in wages. I got a 100% pay cut when I was made redundant along with 650 of my co workers. I had no Croke Park deal to guarantee my job or pension. The private sector has been thrown to the wolves and has had to slash numbers just to stay afloat. It cant borrow billions to pay for employees that it does not need. I’m not talking here about nurses and Gardai but all the deadwood that hides in the backoffice of every government dept. The reason the government has to cut front line staff and spending which we do need is because it cant get rid of all the spending that we dont need (do we need 600+ staff in the Dept of Health when the entire health system is (mis)managed by the HSE for example??)
Very hard on you losing your job, but does that mean that you’ll only be happy if others suffer too? Only this summer two of my teaching colleagues were told thanks but due to cuts they couldn’t be kept on. One had been in the school 3 and half years the other two years. People all over the country in all sectors are losing jobs.
But what you have is a constant attack on one segment and the only reason so it is ‘let the others take the pain’. If you look at things objectively its clear that the PS workers have done more to get this country back on track than any other grouping. Min 15% pay cut, big drop in pension entitlements, extra working hours, loss of colleagues, slashing of resources etc.
Eric are you honestly telling me you think the public sector has taken a bigger hit than the private sector in this recession?? Don’t you see stories like the Olhausen workers the other day who turned up to work and we told their jobs a gone and they will be lucky to even get their last pay check? This has happened a thousand times across the country in small firms and in large ones that make the news like Dell or Waterford Crystal. I’m not wishing that on anyone but the fact is that the public sector is totally insulated from the real impact of the recession because the government continues to borrow money it can’t afford to support it. Since it can’t touch the 80% or so of its budget that goes on pay it has to cut other spending and so it hits payments to child benefit or home carers? Important thing is that Bertie Aherne and Brian Cowen continue to get their six figure pensions eh? Bottom line is that wee need an efficient government that can cut where it needs to in order to protect front line services that we do need but so long as the unions threaten to strike at the first hint of such a move the country will never get the public services is needs
put increments into core pay, include the equivalent pension costs and benchmark them to the private sector.
Eric, when your colleague lost his teaching job after 3 and a half years, was he not put on a panel with pay?
Of course not, only permanent teachers or those with a contract of indefinite duration who are deployed would go on a panel. Temp teachers of whom there are many go to the dole queue like other unemployed workers.
Thanks swift Joan, I didn’t know how that works.
teachers WORKING past 3 o’clock….shocking.. (am not generalising before ye start the lynch mob) but we Special Needs Assistants have to work until after 4, we have no allowances, not entitled to training days unless its on ur own time, no time in lieu is given for said training, plus we work longer hours. I have known and know good teachers, but none of them could do their job without s.n.a’s. So, little sympathy for allowance cuts, i.t. And such like extra’s should be covered by the wage and not as an extra allowances, plus clothing allowance! Are u having a laugh? Who do the dirty work? Again s.n.a’s. They get an allowance? No.
have your say