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POLITICIANS ON BOTH sides of the two upcoming referendums debated the proposed amendments on television last night as voters prepare to fill out their ballots tomorrow.
Minister for Justice Helen McEntee and Senator Michael McDowell debated the referendum on families and durable relationships on Virgin Media TV’s The Tonight Show, followed by Minister for Education Norma Foley and Aontú TD Peadar Toibín debating the amendment on women’s “duties within the home” and the provision of care.
Voters will be asked tomorrow if they wish to:
Government parties are calling for a Yes vote in both referendums and have gained support from the largest Opposition parties, though some Independents and smaller parties are advocating for a No on one or both of the amendments.
Family recognition
Minister McEntee’s opening argument in favour of the family referendum was that it would bring the constitution in line with reality, given that there are lots of different types of families.
“We’re doing two things with this vote. Firstly we are protecting the family that is based on marriage. We’re also bringing our constitution in line with the world we already live in,” she said, describing families that may just have one parent, or families with unmarried cohabitating parents, or families centred around grandparents raising their grandchildren.
“All of us, we already recognise these families. Where they are not recognised is in our constitution. By voting yes, we are for the first time ever saying to these families, who are already recognised by law and by all of us every day, that the constitution now recognises them as a family in a way that it hasn’t before
But it’s very clear that this does not remove the special protection families based on marriage have. In fact, we will be voting to reinstate that.”
Durable relationships
Senator McDowell refuted that the amendment would provide any new rights for families not based on marriage and argued that “recognition is just a piece of political rhetoric”.
“What I’m worried about in all of this is that introducing the notion of families based on durable relationships and saying that they are also families gives rise to a number of unforeseen complications that will lead to legal chaos,” he said.
He took issue with the term durable relationships and said that there is “massive uncertainty” about what it means.
He raised a hypothetical example of a family in which a woman has two different children with two different partners, and where one of those partners also has a third child with someone else, and said there could be various challenges around succession and property rights.
McEntee disputed that: “It is already the case that families change, that relationships change, that children are born with different parents. We have very clear laws around succession, laws around taxes, laws that already exist irrespective of our constitutions. So to suggest that by changing our constitution to recognise these types of families that are already protected by law, that suddenly it’s going to open up a Pandora’s box, it’s absolutely not the case.”
She said that if an aspect of the constitution is being considered by a judge – such as the proposed term durable relationships – the judge must look at the intention of the article, and that the intention of the amendment is clear: “What’s intended is that we will recognise families in a way that they haven’t been before.”
On the term durable relationships and why the government hadn’t set down a specific definition, McEntee said that “the minute you define something and define that so specifically in our constitution, you start looking at what’s not in it. The minute you define it, the race is on for, ‘what have we not included in it?’”.
“It’s already a defined term in our courts, and Michael knows this. A durable relationship has already been defined. It’s a relationship where there is commitment, where there is intention for it to be longlasting, where that’s how it’s presented to society and that’s how society accepts it.”
“It’s already in case law, so you don’t have to accept it in the constitution.”
"This does not remove the special protection that families based on marriage have"
— TonightVMTV (@TonightVMTV) March 6, 2024
Minister for Justice @HMcEntee on Friday's family referendum #TonightVMTV pic.twitter.com/gE6tGWpO4x
McDowell took issue with the difference between a marriage needing a formal divorce to be considered over, whereas an unmarried couple can separate more easily.
He later repeated that the change would cause “chaos” and lead to “disputes and unanticipated results that will lead to complete uncertainty at the heart of our legal system”. He also said that the public are confused about the term.
McEntee insisted that the government spent months examining the language to be used in the amendment. “It’s not something that was plucked for no reason. It’s been very clearly defined in our courts what a durable relationship is. What we’re trying to do here is not amend tax laws or succession laws, or even immigration laws as has been suggested,” she said.
"Saying durable relationships are also families, gives rise to a number of unforeseen circumstances, which will lead to legal chaos..."@SenatorMcDowell on why he will vote no in the Family Referendum.@ClaireBrockTV #TonightVMTV pic.twitter.com/CfBlp9RIdI
— TonightVMTV (@TonightVMTV) March 6, 2024
Immigration
Presenter Claire Brock picked up on the mention of immigration, asking McEntee whether the amendment would have consequences for proving someone is a family member or family reunification.
McEntee responded that the existing family reunification law is “very clear and very narrow for specific reasons, it’s between a parent and a child”.
“That’s not going to change because of this referendum. We’re talking about recognising a family but when it comes to government making decisions and a minister making decisions, a minister has to – and the senator will know this, as a former minister – take into account things like security,” she said.
“There is not going to be suddenly an influx of people who can apply, because the law is very clear.”
McDowell returned again to the use of the term durable relationships and repeated that “we are going down the road towards chaos”.
"This is not going to change the laws we have now, there are not going to be suddenly an influx of people"
— TonightVMTV (@TonightVMTV) March 6, 2024
Minister for Justice @HMcEntee tells @ClaireBrockTV that the family referendum won't impact immigration laws #TonightVMTV pic.twitter.com/mBDys0V3MG
"This shows the confusion that there will be in immigration law"@SenatorMcDowell disagrees with @HMcEntee that the family referendum won't impact immigration laws#TonightVMTV pic.twitter.com/nxQrHdEz8l
— TonightVMTV (@TonightVMTV) March 6, 2024
Women’s ‘duties within the home’
The debate on the second proposed amendment – deleting the article about women’s “duties within the home” and replacing it with one about the provision of care within families – opened with a question to Minister Norma Foley about the reasoning for deleting the current article.
“I would like to think that our constitution is a statement of our values and it reflects all of those who provide care within the family,” Foley said.
“I met a constituent at the weekend, John, who cares for his mother. 24/7, he’s looking after her, and yet John is invisible in the constitution currently. I think everybody who provides care deserves to be seen in the constitution, whether they are sons or daughters or dads looking after children or grandparents raising children,” she said.
“We celebrate what women do in the home and the care that they provide for children. That’s very important. And in this instance, when we have the new wording in the constitution, it will ensure that equal value is given to the care provided by dads for children and to carers like John and grandparents – it’s ‘constitutional catchup’.”
Tóibín said that he accepts that the existing language in the constitution is “archaic” and said he would like to see it changed, saying it should reflect both mothers and fathers within the home.
But he said that the amendment should have put an obligation on the state to provide support to carers and those who need care.
“I think this is peak virtue signalling by the government,” he said. “Its primary aim is to defend the government’s budget from providing help.”
"This is probably peak virtue-signalling from the Government..."@Toibin1 on why he's voting No in the care referendum on Friday.@ClaireBrockTV #TonightVMTV pic.twitter.com/rMGPyBsoaX
— TonightVMTV (@TonightVMTV) March 6, 2024
Provision of care
Claire Brock put that accusation of ‘virtue signalling’ to Minister Foley, which the minister rejected as a “fanciful phrase”.
“Let’s be honest: Over one billion euro is being spent by Government on carer’s allowance. There’s more than one billion euro on home care packages, more than one billion euro on Fair Deal. Is it enough and is it happening quickly enough? Absolutely not, and that’s the reason why I’m in politics – to do more and provide more for the people we represent,” Foley said.
“What’s currently in the constitution refers to the care provided by a mother to her children within the family. The first premise is around the family, so what we’re saying is that all other care should be recognised,” she said.
“And one thing I do want to say: If we only have in the constitution the care that a mother provides to her child, who is caring for the mother? I know the length and breadth of this country, there are sons and daughters caring for their mothers, but they also are invisible in this constitution. They deserve to be recognised in the constitution.”
"I could say the exact same thing to you Peadar, that you're virtue signalling"
— TonightVMTV (@TonightVMTV) March 6, 2024
Minister for Education @NormaFoleyTD1 defends the upcoming care referendum #TonightVMTV pic.twitter.com/5I9sdMJBIK
Tóibín pushed back, saying that care has “never been so devalued as it is at the moment”, saying that many childcare providers and nursing homes have had to close.
“Every time you ask the government why they won’t put an obligation [in the constitution], they say it’s because the constitution shouldn’t be a place where budgets are concerned, that it’s for government to decide budgets and budgets shouldn’t come into the constitution, but that’s patently untrue,” Tóibín said.
“The day after this is passed, if it is passed, there will be no material benefit to people with disabilities or carers.”
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They weren’t mistakes until he was caught. Even then he doesn’t want to acknowledge what in fact he as done. Using public money to politically advertise FG and himself.
@frank murphy: Funnt that Frank. You put up a hashtag, yet anyone clicking on your name finds your twitter is suspended. The only place you can really put your idiotic hashtag is up your ….
@Declan:
You should try muting him. It takes about a half an hour to weed out all his various bogus accounts!
@Dave Doyle: Yes, he’s been found out at last, the wheels are falling off the bus, not my leader, not a leader.
@Frank Cauldhame: When you fail in two ministeries, how can anyone even consider him to be capable of leading the country. All that concerns Leo is his image, and FG as a party are happy to be dragged along on his coat tails. That says a lot about FG.
Leo is so far up his own backside he believes his own lies.
he has no problem spending public money on advertising himself. Yet he begrudged giving pensioners the means to buy some heat in their homes during an unprecedented ice storm. He had to be shamed in the Dail to do it. No wonder he is so “concerned” about dead bodies been found in homes.
@Frank Cauldhame: Deny, deflect, blame a sub contractor, it is every body else’s fault except the one that setup this quango in the first place.
@Dave Doyle: dave you can rest easy knowing that we live in a country where such things are a scandal- in some countries even those ee have close links with share no such transparency.
@Dave Doyle: One would wonder what else is going on that they haven’t been caught out on.
@Dave Doyle: I do recommend to all the snowflakes a great movie called “The Edukators”. A brilliant example of the old adage, “If you are not a socialist when you are eighteen, you have no heart and if yo are still one when you are fifty you have no brain”. I await correction by the nasal retentive.
@Tom McHugh: So that excuses Leo, does it?
@Old Gabby Johnson: Not the only scandal as we know only to well. It seems since 2011 FG has lurched from one scandal to another. As for transparency, no such thing when the truth has to be dragged screaming and shouting to a tribunal. Even at that, as we have seen, the findings can be left to gather dust.
That country very close physically and linked by hundreds of years of history has some honour in public life. People walk when caught with their trousers down. Unlike the cesspool the Irish establishment has been for decades.
@Dave Doyle:
A scandal a day is the FG way
@Dave Doyle: two failed ministers who think they have the answers to everything. The best and brightest of FG, would indicate a seriously limited gene pool in that party.
A plan for 2040, when they can plan for 2018 !!!!
@Dave Doyle: not to mention dead bodies being found without a home
@frank murphy: #Shampagneforleo
@Tom McHugh: it was all going so well till you used the word snowflake
@Dave Doyle: hes such a cheat! Leo was shouting sorry at the top of his voice all through his term as minister of health and we still have the health crisis, now its sorry for blowing taxes on his pr promos, such a welfare cheat he cheats us all!
Should be at the forefront of the parade this year. The snake is showing his true colours.
@Sean O’ Donovan:
Just read that the Media Company hired by FG and their Senior civil servants was the same media company hired by Teresa May prior to the British General Election. The cost of the spin campaign was from the Tory funds.
Leo’s FG CSU spin/troll factory is being funded by the Irish taxpayer.
Their lies the CON.
‘Mistakes were made’—classic use of the passive voice to abrogate responsibility.
@Brendan O’Brien: Well said.
@Brendan O’Brien:
You and I pay for our mistakes. Lets hope Leo and his band of spivs pay at the ballot box.
@Brendan O’Brien: the only mistake that was made was that the public didn’t buy it. Next time it will be dressed up to seem more palatable. A spoonful of sugar for a digital age
Do we have another cast iron guarantee this little private operation will be shut down ,i will believe it when i see it leo .
Oh no not another peacocking politicking half assed attempt at being humble??! Say it ain’t so! Que the FFG fanatics claming he had no knowledge and is an honest person… smh
@Declan: Oh the Irish propaganda machine. Where does everyone get their news (and trust it)?
@Mollie K: well this isn’t a good place to start being one of major outlet pipes for Leo’s spin dryer as well as the puke and lies that come from AFP. If you sift through the comments here and disregard the trolls and party political bots you might pick up the odd shred of truth and real information for free. Its a bit like mining bitcoin though.
The default excuse for everything in this country “mistakes, FF made them, Labour made. It’s amazing that these people spend their lives trying to become politicians and when they get there they just make loads of “mistakes”.
@Oscar Scatters: What amazes me is we keep electing them……
@Kerry Blake: Don’t worry Kerry, Sinn Fein have enough people fooled into thinking they are an alternative.Then the day will come when Sinn Fein finish their first term in coalition and they’ll tell us about all the “mistakes” they made.
I’m getting ahead of myself there though, it’s the Independence Alliance’s turn next.
@Oscar Scatters: IT’s the only option we haven’t tried.. At least we will know for sure.. they may very well surprise us.. Repeating the same mistakes in voting every 5 years is idiocy.
Has to be said, FF /FG whichever party Charlie Haughy taught them all well.
Spin and waffle to beat the band.
Leo is admitting mistakes were made but obviously Leo is hoping that’s the end of it and nothing will change!
Leo’s alter ego — Mr Bean – strikes again !!
Leos slip is showing…if.he keeps it up he’ll outdo the mayo Muppet …as del boy says….what a plonker
Just an ego massaging trip for Leo payed for by us the tax payer.
The minister of Propaganda!
@Maurice Frazer: Like his other two ministries, he failed at that as well.
Whatever about this subject, I am absolutely pee’d off with the Disclosure Tribunal, this blooming McCabe thing is Never Never ending and well fed, fat Cat, legal Eagles belching all over the place with smiles as broad as Bank Vault Safe doors.
Mr varadkar was caught spending public funds to advertise the fg party.he is unfit to hold any office of goverment,let alone the office he does hold.country is being run by crooks.
We are the self preservation society……..
Sockys spin unit must have instructed most newspapers to ignore Noel Rocks disgraceful tweet in regards to Paul Murphy.https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/td-apologises-for-tweeting-tasteless-and-insensitive-image-about-tallaght-830719.html
@Stephen Grehan: Funny how the journal ignored that story, or the ones relating to FG bullying … now if it was the shinners, then it would be a different story.
The Mistakes were by Fine Gael when they elected sanctimonious Enda as leader, and ever worse when Leo was made Unelected leader of the country! All style, No substance ! And that’s an Understatement!
@Randal McNally: He lost the vote 35 to 65. Hardly Elected.
It takes a special kind of person to (amongst other things) be a failure at propaganda.
@Ian Oh: quiet – the FG Nazis will label you anti-Semitic for speaking out against the spin machine. That’s the line they spun on the journal last week.
@Ian Kavanagh: Oh sorry about that. All hail Dr Socks.
When the government are employing bull $h1t vendors, and still come across as totally inadequate to do any sort of a job for this country we are definitely in shtook
If it gets restructured correctly, and centralised the PR functions across the various departments and government agencies, it could actually save tens of millions annually.
@Honeybadger197: I’ll smoke whatever your smoking….
@Henry Matthews: Maybe research the total pr outlay from all government departments/agencies before you roll/ bowl up and blaze into the evening. :)
@Honeybadger197: quango! quango! quango!
@Honeybadger197: Difference was this was set up at a cost of €5 million to the tax payer to promote Leo………
@Kerry Blake: That’s a view certainly. I disagree.
@Honeybadger197: i would rather they got on with the job instead of spending taxpayers cash telling us how good a job they’re doing…..
@Honeybadger197: Didn’t they set up gov.ie already?
The final 2040 Plan should have been debated in the Dail first,that’s important part of Democracy.
Freedom of the press should surely be preserved in a Democracy and allowed to do proper analysis of news including Government policies or plans so that the public could find out what parts of plan previously announced,what parts commenced and what parts near completion (as Thomas Pringle said in Dail!) plus including all costs and projected costs,etc!
@Nuala Mc Namara: A plan for 2040, when they cant even plan for 2018. How funny is that.
@Henry Matthews: honeybadger197 ain’t smoking, he’s sucking
Eventually eventually eventually the people of this country will learn that those elected to represent us , only represent themselves. Those who run for election do so for the perks and pay packet and the opportunities they make for themselves to further there own lives.
Is it gone now to far to rip up the establishment- a new party with new people and a leader to believe in is needed – how far away from that are we- it’s ok u can cry now
Fair play to him holding his hands up. The sign of a true leader.
@Pat Bateman: Obviously not all controls have been tightened yet. You’re still going strong in the bot farm
@Pat Bateman: you forgot to put MASTER between pat and Bateman
@Pat Bateman: “The leader is good! The leader is great! We surrender our will as of this date.”
@Pat Bateman: Or puts his hands up to succumb to Merkle are Barnier. Surrender.
@Henry Matthews: Brilliant
@Pat Bateman: I will agree with you if he finally admits that the country has National emergencies in Homelessness Housing and Health. and sets up an EMERGENCY response group to URGENTLY tackle them adequately!
The people, families & children affected by these Emergencies can’t wait until 2040 for URGENT EFFECTIVE response!
Now that would be a sign of a true leader of the country!
@Nuala Mc Namara: The National Emergency Co Ordination Group &Gov Departments,etc shows it can be done very effectively!
@Nuala Mc Namara: NECG re Severe Weather!
@Pat Bateman: The sign of being caught.
@Dave Doyle: Listen Dave, we all make mistakes, that’s why they have rubbers on the tops of pencils.
How many times did he say Sec Gen today? Secretary General last time I heard. Infuriating.
No
N
Leo was shouting sorry at the top of his voice all through his term as minister of health and we still have the health crisis, now its sorry for blowing taxes on his pr promos, shuch a welfare cheat he cheats us all!
He as ke
But we don’t need an election.
have your say