@Brian – definitely lol worthy!!!

Interesting it is mentioned that the Tuatha Dé Dannann (people of the tribe of Dan) are said to be of the Israeli tribe of Dan – 1 of the 10 northern tribes.

So if Loyalists think their decended from the lost tribes of Israel do they also consider themselves Mormons I wonder?

Yes but without the second “m”

Brilliant!!!

@Pablo – isn’t communism wonderful. Millions murdered in 20th century alone by people like you in the name of your Marxist utopia.

Isn’t capitalism savage a million or so killed for profit in last ten years

@Pablo – Isn’t whataboutery great. One can answer any argument by invoking ‘what about such and such …’

Hmm you probably call yourself a celt you do know where the celts came from. Shared culture?

Pablo – Capitalism has saved the world…ask the Chinese and Indians, literally hundreds of millions lifted out of poverty through market-based economic growth.

Pablo put the joint and the organic German beer down, your drunk!!

Dave, in the same vein, who mentioned culture? But National identity is a sense of belonging to a state with its culture, traditions, politics..never mind that though, based on your idea that a type of building is unique to ireland and some places in the uk, you disregard years of scientific research from different fields. lol .You really made me laugh there. I’d love to hear how you can call geneticists and archaeologists muppets? What are your credentials?

Nation state is not a new concept nor that of empire–Rome, Greece, China, Aztec, and Incan come to mind. However the concept of people group based on culture, language, and genetic similarities do to isolation of a tribe is deeper and more profound. Just look at the consequences of modern artificial boarders and colonialism around the world.

One of the seven women is Kevin Bacons grandmother

Yes but I hope you aren’t suggesting the incestuous start to humanity as proposed by the Bible? Where Adam shagged Eve and their children shagged each other and then each other, etc. More are we accepting that incest is God’s way?

The accepted theory now, and substantiated, is that at some point there was an event which brought the human population down to just a few thousand in Africa and the rest us came from that group.

National Geographic have been running eh human genome project since 2005 and you can send in your own to be sequenced for a bit of pocket change. Think it’s about $20

Actually it’s interesting when you think it through mathematically…you have two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents etc etc….but if you go back just 30 generations (thats 750 years at 25 years per generation)…that would mean you should have 1 billion direct ancestors alive 750 years ago. Of course you don’t (the world population was only about 10 million back then) So what happened? Basically, we’re all the product of incest..especially cousins marrying within a small village. So our family free is not a pyramid, it’s a diamond.

@David Stapleton – I’m not suggesting anything. I am merely pointing out the facts which as it so happens – seems to line up with the biblical account of man originating from only a few individuals. This clearly threatens your atheistic worldview but facts are facts.

Ha! I’ve heard it all. A religionist talking about facts! Next you’ll be claiming evidence. Here’s a fact, of all the men who penned the bible not 1 could explain where the sun went at night.

Here’s another fact, the whole bible was written oblivious to many parts of the world, it also got many things wrong such as the fact it claimed the world was flat. It’s was a fictional book written by smart people, that’s it.

The theory presented in the Seven Daughters of Eve is a lot more complicated than us all being descended from seven women. For a start, the seven women didn’t live concurrently. It’s based on sound analysis of mitochondrial DNA, and actually does nothing do support origin from Biblical Eve. The seven hypothetical women are descendants of Mitochondrial Eve, who was NOT the originator of humanity, but matrilineal most recent common ancestor of all people currently living. Interesting reading.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

Err… The world’s population 750 years ago was significantly larger than 10 million. 400 million odd is the accepted figure.

@The Dude, not threatened at all. Why would I be? Please feel free to believe anything you want. If required, I give my full permission :). My comment was, admittedly, a bit tongue in cheek. As Codology says, by examining human mitochondrial DNA, there is evidence that human kind was reduced to approximately 10,000 people from between 99,000 to 200,000 years ago and it is this reduced number that “seeded” the rest of us. Although I am not suggesting you believe Adam and Eve actually existed, the biblical account is not about “man originating from only a few individuals” but two individuals. Hence my “incest” comment because if this was indeed the case, then human kind could only have been re-populated through incest. Thankfully we all know better.

You’re right George, my mistake. Either way the point stands that without incest, you would have to have 1 billion direct ancestors alive at that time.

@No2Ff – Can you show me exactly where the bible claims the world was flat? Oh..you can’t can you – you just made that up in your ignorance, didn’t you! The flat earth is actually a modern invention. No educated person in antiquity believed the earth was flat. Even Jesus speaking about the time of his return in Luke chap 17 v31 & 34 mentions day and night alluding to one part of the globe being night and the other daytime.

@No2FF – The bible never claims the earth is flat. Please stop making things up. In fact no educated person in antiquity believed such a thing. Even Jesus in Luke chapter 17 in vs 32,34 speaking of his return, alludes to the earth being day and night on different parts of the globe. Also many parts of the bible such as job 26:7 refer to the earth as being circular. So, you are wrong and a liar.

@David – My point is that humans came from a few individuals – It is a mathematical fact when one works it out.

@The Dude, I take your point, though the 10,000 odd individuals were not the start of the human race but rather those that survived an extinction event, so the theory goes. As for mathematical fact, I am neither a mathematician nor an evolutionary biologist, however I would suppose that through mutation, certain dominant traits arose in our ancestors and these traits were either subsumed back into our gene pool or died out or reinforced by inter-breeding with others that had the same traits (dominant or otherwise), etc. Over time, some of these traits became the dominant traits that eventually marked the boundary that marked the species that we call Homo-Sapiens. But there was no “few individuals” that suddenly “were” homo-sapiens but rather a progression of early humans that had more and more of the traits that we associate with homo-sapiens as opposed to our earlier ancestors, such as Cro-Magnon, etc. In short, they no more appeared fully formed than you are one whole year older after your birthday.

@David – I personally do not believe in any extinction event theory. There is no evidence for that. Evidence for a flood is much later of course. I was merely pointing out that humans as we are NOW – originated with a few ancestors. This is a scientific and mathematical certainty. For the record, I am a Christian and I do not believe man came from monkeys.

@The Dude, Well we can agree on something, I also do not believe that humans came from monkeys. :) We did however, come from a common ancestor or at least that is the prevailing theory. You don’t believe in the extinction theory? I presume we are just talking about the near extinction of humans and not other animals. Surely the fact that the mitochondrial DNA shows a bottleneck, where the population was vastly reduced, adds support to this theory. You talk about mathematical fact, in regards to humans originating from a few ancestors, which is a slight misnomer as, once again this is a theory. I do find it strange that you find no issue in using terms like “mathematical fact” yet “do not believe in any extinction event theory”. You even use the term scientific. May I ask where you think these few ancestors came from in the first place? I take it you do not support evolutionary theory either? You mention you are a Christian but there is nothing that is fundamentally against your religious beliefs in evolutionary theory or indeed any of the mass extinction theories. For the record, I used the word theory above in the scientific sense – that is, an accumulation of data that fits observable facts and that can be tested. Theories can change and even be discarded, however the basic data incorporating the theory does not change (sorry I am ad-libbing and shortening the definition to save on space). You can look up “scientific theory” if you want. Basically scientifically and even mathematically speaking, where do you think we came from and why not believe in extinction events?

@David – Yes I do see your points which are well made. The extinction theory is something I would have to do some more reading on. The common ancestor idea does seem to support the biblical account – I have never seen any compelling evidence to suggest that the bible’s accounts, and not just of man’s origin, has been in any way disproven. Many disparage the bible, which is easy to do – but none have proven it false.

@The Dude, One of the issues with the bible for me is that it is not one book but a series of books, all written after the birth of Jesus Christ (I am obviously talking about the New Testament here). The earliest is reportedly written some 50/60 years after. When you take into account the political situation in the areas they were written in, the original languages they were written in, the meaning and nuances lost from subsequent translations, etc., one ends up with a collection of writings that, even the most ardent believer must admit, is perhaps not as reliable as one would like it to be. Coupled that with the fact that, despite the many years it has been used as the “official” word of God, it has been edited and has had parts censored and left out. The first council of Nicea effectively decided to agree on many things which are not actually in the bible or were not specifically stated or were subject to interpretation, such as if Jesus was the son of God – there was some contention even for, what is now considered, such a fundamental truth by believers. Again looking at the politics on the ground, the Roman Emperor Constantine was in charge of a declining Roman Empire and he sought to unite it by any means necessary and saw a unified religion as a means to that end. He did this during his life time but why, if he was such a believer and not just doing it for political reasons, did he not convert to Christianity until his death bed. incidentally, even this is “fact” is in contention. The Donation of Constantine, though not biblical, where Constantine supposedly handed over the responsibility of the Western Roman Empire to the then Pope, has been proven to be a forgery, a fact confirmed by the Roman Catholic church. Yet this document was used as proof that the Church had secular power. No King or Queen in Europe was elected, no major action was agreed to without the consent of the Church up until relatively modern times, using this forged document as a justification. (I am not going into the breaking away of the English monarchy). While, as I said, this is not in the Bible, it does paint the picture of a group of people playing political games of manipulation and downright deceit. A group of people looking to secure political power. These same people were responsible for editing and giving the world what is now seen as the definitive Bible. Yet, what about all the writings that they took out? Remember that this is not contemporary with Jesus. The first council of Nicea was 325 years after Jesus was meant to have lived. This is what the Bible is today. I am not attacking your faith, far from it, I am saying however, that the Bible has been in the hands of a group of people who, over the centuries, have edited and censored it to suit their own agenda. An agenda that they weren’t above lying, forging and killing to promote. However, one may argue that, although content has been censored and edited, it doesn’t take away from the content that remains. I would say that, based on what I have stated above and much more, it is a matter for individual conscience. I have always taken the stance that everyone is free to believe what they want as long as it promotes peace and helps unify rather than separate humanity, is not forced upon people and respects the world we live in and the people in that world. Unfortunately, no religion in history meets that criteria. Admittedly nothing has ever met this criteria but one thing is for sure, religion is not going to – my opinion, but based on historical observations. Aside from all that, and I apologize for writing such a long winded response, a specific question – how does the Bible support the common ancestor idea? I have read the Bible, and, from memory, the only thing that comes close about the start of humanity is the story of the Garden of Eden which, as most of us will know, involves one man and one woman and not a group of people…

@David – For the record I am not a RC but a bible believing Christian. You certainly make some good points. We still have NT documents from within the eye witness period, normally 70 yrs and linguistic studies have advanced greatly in recent times. Different modern day translations have different purposes. An example is the good news translation which is for those who speak English as a second language. I am writing this on a phone and so cannot give a detailed response. But, can you have a look at a book by Lee strobel , I think his name is – it’s called ‘the case for Christ’. It is short and light and deals with some of your issues. He also has some other titles such as ‘the case for faith, etc. I feel he documents the evidence quite well and wrote the book as an unbeliever to disprove the authenticity of the bible, after his wife became a Christian. He was a former investigative reporter I believe dealing with criminal law. Regards.

…..there is also a more heavyweight academic book if you are that way inclined. ‘The new evidence that demands a verdict’ by josh McDowell. It is tough going but shows how solid the authenticity of the bible is – based on thorough research and real evidence.

@The Dude, I am always willing to increase my knowledge so I will give both a look when I have the time. However, my points still stand regarding the Bible (the books you mentioned not withstanding), regardless of which flavour of Christian you are. Also, you sill haven’t answered my last question, regarding the “group of people”?

@David – Yes the NT is certainly a series of books, all written in Greek as that would have been one of the main spoken languages of the time along with Aramaic. Most characters in the NT would have spoken at least these two and other languages also, including Paul and Jesus. Remember that people then would have had an oral tradition and the NT itself is written by those who witnessed the events themselves, especially the gospels and the Book of Acts. Also, the eye witness period is considered to be up to 70 years. We also still have access to many manuscripts and copies would have been made – meticulously. With the advances made in linguistics, meaning and nuances can also be verified from other non biblical literature of the time. NT events can also be corroborated from other non biblical historians of the time. I would contend that the NT is one of the most reliable pieces of writing that we have, historically. I would also say that in one sense, the bible verifies itself, especially by the accuracy of its prophesies, which have thus far all come true down to the last detail 100% including the birth, life and death of Jesus which was predicted throughout the OT – the most recent one being the rebirth of the state of Israel in 1948 (Whatever one feels about that). To take this issue further you would be best directed to maybe books such as the Josh McDowell one – to satisfy any doubts you may have as to the accuracy of the scriptures.
I also agree with you that The RC church has corrupted affairs to its own end and of course this is what led to the reformation. The crucial bottom line is I believe what one wants to do with Jesus and his claims of Being God, backing it up with his Life and resurrection and his claim of being the ONLY gate through which people can be saved.
As far as your question about groups, I am not sure I can give you an answer that can satisfy you fully. Here is a link I came across that may at least give one or two answers on this issue and I think it is a reasonable response that can be considered. Please keep in mind that it is from a Christian perspective. Kind Regards and Happy new year to you David.
https://bible.org/question/was-world-populated-through-incest-or-did-god-create-others-besides-adam-and-eve

@The Dude, I have read up on the previous books you mentioned and also the link you gave. I am afraid that here we have a vast difference of opinion which, while not unexpected, is a bit surprising given your usage of science and fact. For example the URL mentions incest as being OK, given the sparse population. This makes sense if this was the case, and though I have not read up on it, I would not be surprised if incest did not happen in early societies. However it then goes on to say that essentially humans have been reduced by sin, thereby resulting in abnormalities today whereas this would not have happened then, whenever then was, because humans were purer. There is absolutely no evidence to support this claim, none whatsoever, either from a factual or scientific basis. You speak of the Bible, however you offer as evidence that there was a small group of people in existence from a source outside of the Bible? As I said, anyone can believe anything they want, with the caveats that I mentioned, but you seem to be trying to present hearsay and supposition as fact. I am afraid that this just does not work.

@David – I did point out to you that a comment section such as this would not give you a satisfactory answer. However, if you are someone who genuinely wishes to explore the issue – if at least only to gain the perspective of an opposing view, then I think the books I suggested would be a good jumping off point.
As far as the link I gave you – it was merely to give you one among many from a Christian biblical perspective of the issue – nothing more. if you are not familiar with the biblical view, then some of the points made may not make sense to you – which is understandable.
The following point sums it up really from another article “In the early Old Testament, incest was allowed because it wasn’t genetically dangerous and it wasn’t against the law.” i.e. The law of Moses came much later. It is from this link – http://www.compellingtruth.org/incest-Bible.html
These links are not meant to weigh you down with an academic tome. Do give the books I suggested some consideration, and then see if the evidence for your current position stands up to scrutiny when weighed up against them. Regards.

@The Dude, Although I would not consider myself a biblical scholar, I have read the Bible a number of times, albeit not too recently. I do not doubt that, as an historic narrative, the Bible is interesting and I have traveled around the middle east as the area interests me from an historical perspective, though not just from a biblical point of view. However, I am afraid that, when the conversation turns to the supernatural and there are claims of veracity where none exists, then I begin to lose interest. As I pointed out earlier, some people believe, and that is their prerogative but when they present such belief as provable fact and not an issue of belief, then I draw the line. I am an atheist and have been for the vast majority of my life. I have studied texts, read up on many religions, not just Christianity, visited sites that are mentioned in the Bible (and in other non-Christian religions), stood where Jesus was meant to have been baptized, where Herod’s temple stood, where the walls of Jericho stood and many other sites mentioned in the Bible, including many sites in Jerusalem and, although I have been respectful of others belief, I have found no real evidence, certainly not empirical evidence, for any but the historical aspects of the Bible. At this point, I believe that no objective evidence can be produced. To put it another way, if empirical, testable, objective proof was produced tomorrow of the existence of God, or any gods, then I would acknowledge their existence. However, until this happens, there can be no proof, only belief and I do not believe.

@David – Ok David I see. I suppose if God is indeed who he says he is – then it is only logical that one would expect him to have supernatural abilities. The miracles of Jesus were supernatural, as was his resurrection. Incidents outlined in the Book of Acts were also supernatural in nature. When Jesus healed the paralytic, he first said “You sins are forgiven”. The response of the onlookers was that only God had the power and authority to forgive sins. Jesus, then, by way of proof of his identity, commanded the man to get up and walk – thereby proving he had that authority.
If one is earnestly seeking God – I would say that one must be honest and admit that if He indeed exists – He must surely have supernatural power.
You are probably also aware of the fine tuning argument
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgC9CsK-7cU
I find this quite a compelling argument for God’s existence – the Bible in the Psalms says that “the heavens declare the Glory of God”.
Another good apologist to check out is Ravi Zacharias. Here is a lecture on the Existence of God by him although I have not listened to this one fully myself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTVOufIzyPY
It is interesting that you have been to the various biblical locations. I haven’t been myself yet but certainly would like to at some point. I am sorry that I could not answer your questions to your full satisfaction. I had a conversion experience to Christianity when I was in my early 20s and God changed my life radically. I realised I was lost and that only Christ could save me – according to John 3:16 and Acts 16: 28-31. I wish you luck in your search David and hope you come to a knowledge of the truth. John 14:6. Kind Regards
.

@The Dude, Thank you for your kind regards. I hope that we all come to knowledge. This ideal, to me, is one of the hopes I have for humanity. While I agree that the search for knowledge leads us along some bizarre paths, some things are misleading and others are, while appearing to be enlightening, actually leading us up the garden path, as it were. I am saying this about all disciplines. However, having looked at the first video which appears to give very scientific proof for the existence of a “clock maker”, it is logically misleading at best and manipulating at worse. The basic argument is that this universe, stars, planets, our sun, earth and life as we know it could not exist if certain constants in the universe were not exactly as they are now, by and large. Although this may be true, this does not constitute proof that the universe was fine tuned for us, rather that we are here because of the base conditions that have arisen. I have looked at both but unfortunately any response I have is much too large to put here. Let us just say that, while I respect your belief, I do not and cannot share it. Good luck :)

Maybe you picked the wrong Dude. The Dudeness you are not :)

The Dude…is Pope Francis a leftist ideologue in your opinion then?

Dude: – The sea levels rose about 100m after the end of the last ice age. This is a fact. It also appears that it wasn’t an even rise- it happened in pulses. 5m over a century is perfectly possible, and would have been enough to flood out the area that is now the North Sea.

@Kal – apologies for late reply. Yes he is.

@George – What did they drop by before the last ice age. I.e. When it froze up.

The known British class syatem was introduced by the Normans after the 1066 conquest.

Was that you in the H8ful Eight dude the toothless feller who wanted to hannnng da n~~~er. Nah im fine here man love my country dont like Saudia Arabia dont like the whole bow down and lick my feet stuff . What about yourself ? Judeo Christian nah i think thats a load of contrived shite too.

Ah stop.. Chris, you know you can’t post actual history on here

Really i thought they had a pretty open society considering it was a thousand years ago give or take . The system we are now in the midst of is a neo feudal system just with better teeth . If ye think our education system was not dominated by church and classical era British values then i dont know what to say to ye lads. De Valera was a great man ye will tell me next.

B… your third sentence was the longest I have read in a long time. Not even a coma! Relax and breath!

Thank you Missy but i write as i think and i really could not be arsed interrupting my train of thought to please the grammar police .Now Missy what have you to offer despite the grammar criticising . Anything on the headlining topic.

Paddy and Mary Joe upset now that Trinity College Professors say something about brown people been here in Ireland before them .. Guffaw its all speculation it must be haha ah lads just embrace it and get on with it like, yere lives are not going to change over this. Just factual information that’s all. Breathe easy.

The Normans introduced monasticism and landlord fuadalism to drive down the British saxons. So if that isn’t a class system I don’t know what is, leading to the existence of a two tier parliamentry system and later education under a preferential high/low established religious system in Britain and Ireland.

Yes, thankfully ‘we’ evolved to such an advanced level that we created a carceral state; torturing and raping children in borstal schools, enslaving them for profit in Magdelan laundries, handing them over to paedophile priests, shaming and forcing abroad, women who had the temerity to want autonomy over their own bodies, mass censorship, mass emigration… a grand oul’ bit of evolution there, if that’s what you’re into.

Petr, even the Ireland of the 1950′s was light years ahead of the Muslim world today in its human rights.

@Petr – BEgan is moving to Saudi Arabia. Maybe you should go with him too as you must truly find it awful here in this free society we have. I think you would fit in there – I really do.

Boooooom