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LAST UPDATE | 8 Jan
A STATE OF emergency has been declared and more than 30,000 people have been told to evacuate their homes after a ferocious wildfire in Los Angeles devoured buildings in the region, as hurricane-force winds tore through the city overnight.
The fire forced the evacuation of tens of thousands of people, some of whom abandoned their cars and fled on foot to safety with roads blocked.
A fire official told local television station KTLA that several people were injured, some with burns to faces and hands. The official added that one female firefighter had sustained a head injury.
The fire, which broke out about 10:30 (18:30 Irish Time) on Tuesday, rapidly spread in incredibly dry conditions and high winds in the Pacific Palisades neighborhood of Los Angeles.
Weather forecasters say that winds are predicted to continue fanning the flames down towards the city.
Over 1,400 California firefighters continue to battle the wildfires, as officials in the affluent Malibu area have told residents to be prepared to evacuate.
Los Angeles mayor Karen Bass said in a post on X that that the windstorm is “expected to worsen through the morning”.
“The city of Malibu urges all residents not currently under evacuation orders to be prepared to evacuate,” the city government said.
“If you require additional time to evacuate, or if you have pets or livestock, consider making preparations to leave now.”
Six evacuation shelters are in operation, three of which can take people with animals.
California Governor Gavin Newsom, who was in Southern California to attend the naming of a national monument by President Joe Biden, made a detour to the canyon to see “first hand the impact of these swirling winds and the embers”.
He said he found “not a few — many structures already destroyed”.
Officials did not give an exact number of structures damaged or destroyed in the Pacific Palisades wildfire but they said about 30,000 residents are under evacuation orders and more than 13,000 structures were under threat.
The blaze began shortly after the start of a Santa Ana windstorm that the National Weather service warned could be “life threatening” and the strongest to hit Southern California in more than a decade.
The exact cause of the fire was unknown and no injuries had been reported, officials said.
Further evacuation orders were issued about 25 miles north east in Altadena after another fire spread to more than 200 acres by Tuesday evening, the Angeles National Forest posted on the social platform X.
The Eaton fire in Altadena started near a nature preserve. The flames spread so rapidly that staff at a senior care centre had to push dozens of residents in wheelchairs and hospital beds down the street to a parking lot where they waited in their bedclothes for ambulances and other vehicles to take them to safety.
The winds were expected to increase overnight and continue for days, producing isolated gusts that could top 100mph in mountains and foothills — including in areas that have not seen substantial rain in months.
On Tuesday evening, 28,300 households were without power due to the strong winds, according to the mayor’s office.
About 15,000 utility customers in Southern California had their power shut off to reduce the risk of equipment sparking blaze. A half a million customers total were at risk of losing power pre-emptively.
Actor James Woods posted footage of flames burning through bushes and past palm trees on a hill near his home. The towering orange flames billowed among the landscaped yards between the homes.
“Standing in my driveway, getting ready to evacuate,” he said in the short video on X.
The erratic weather caused Biden to cancel plans to travel to inland Riverside County, where he was to announce the establishment of two new national monuments in the state.
He remained in Los Angeles, where smoke was visible from his hotel, and was briefed on the wildfires. The Federal Emergency Management Agency approved a grant to help reimburse California for the firefighting cost.
Biden said in a statement that he and his team are communicating with state and local officials and he has offered “any federal assistance that is needed to help suppress the terrible Pacific Palisades fire”.
Film studios cancelled two movie premieres due to the fire and windy weather and the Los Angeles Unified School District said it temporarily relocated students from three campuses in the Pacific Palisades area.
Recent dry winds, including the notorious Santa Anas, have contributed to warmer-than-average temperatures in Southern California, where there has been very little rain so far this season. Southern California has not seen more than 0.1 inches (0.25 centimetres) of rain since early May.
With additional reporting from Andrew Walsh
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It is actually incredible sad and cruel that the No campaign ignore women who have had miscarriages.
Sticking their graphic posters outside schools and maternity hospitals.
@Daithi: Also Dr Eimear Thornton isn’t a medical doctor but sure what’s new.
@Daithi: it is more upsetting to couples who have suffered miscarriage to hear people claim their baby is “just a clump of cells”.
@Daithi: The fact remain for me that we had a scan of our baby at 11 weeks and it was a baby and looked like a baby no but’s if’s or and’s.
That is why i am voting NO
“The images, slogans and stories are acting as a powerful trigger for women who have experience of abortion and may need counselling.” #loveboats
@Kieran Fallon: or for the miscarriage to be called an abortion.
@Kieran Fallon: The thing is Kieran , when you have a miscarriage that is exactly what you see, just clumps of tissue with no discernable shape (despite some of the nasty pictures going around social media). It is incredibly distressing and painful and, for those of us who welcomed pregnancy, a very sad reality. However, speaking as someone who has had 3 miscarriages and had to give up on ever having a child through childbirth, I will still be voting to repeal the 8th. While I desperately wanted to have a baby, I cannot and will not judge a woman who feels that going through with a pregnancy is not right for them, whatever the reason. #Repealthe8th
@Sean Ryan: So you are voting no because you wanted to have children & think everyone else should as well. I had an abortion but don’t think every woman that gets pregnant should have one too. I won’t explain my decision as it’s none of anyone else’s concern. Suffice to say the man involved had his say.
@Francis Mc Carthy: they must regret aborting their babies if that is the case.
@Sean Ryan: I, for one, am relieved that an 11 week old baby actually looked like a baby, and not a shoe or trotting horse. However I don’t feel you should take a woman’s right to choose away because of it.
#REPEALTHE8TH
@Daithi: how is a photo of an unborn baby graphic ? You need to grow up.
When the facts, experts and evidence are against you, take the Pro-Life Campaign route and lie through your teeth.
@Kieran Fallon: “they must regret aborting their babies if that is the case.” Or perhaps it is the circumstances that led to them feeling that an abortion was the best option – be it rape, fatal fetal abnormalities or a threat to their own life… but sure, that won’t help your argument, so lets ignore those people shall we?
@Kieran Fallon: While the decision to have an abortion many years ago was a difficult one & caused me a lot of heartache & tears, I would make the same decision if I had my life to live over again.
@Kieran Fallon: “For some women and couple this is fine. These people can cope and get on with their lives. But for others, an image on a poster or leaflet can bring up a flood of emotions and they need to talk. We work with these women and couples, so they can move on with their lives.”
But i thought that “Love both” wanted to ‘protect’ women from mental health problems \o/
* Babies are born
There are baby dolls which look uncannily like recently born babies. They are not babies.
It is an emotional affectation to pretend that a foetus is a baby. A foetus is a foetus. It has the potential, if viable, to become a baby. A baby is a baby.
The Pro-Life side is compelled to represent a foetus as a baby, or a child, or a little human being, or a MiniMe, or a tiny cute miniature human being but that is a distortion of reality.
One general point. The Pro-Choice has maintained immense dignity and common sense so far. The Pro-Life side has intentionally gone very low and manipulative. The temptation is to descend to the Pro-Life level but that would be poor tactics.
The battle between the Pro-Life and the Pro-Choice side is the battle between the irrational (Pro-Life) and the rational (Pro-choice).
Reason, logic, compassion, experience and real medicine all favour the Pro-choice side. Let the Pro-Life side use its zealots, disturbing imagery, it’s extremists, its dogmatists and its special pleading advocates. These people are always on the unpleasant, judgmental, harsh, condemnatory and sermonising side. Leave them to their word games, sophistry and silliness, as they didon the Childrens’ Referendum, Same Sex Marriage, Divoirce, contraception, anti decriminalisation of homosexual practice, anti sex education, anti-women, anti-children and anti-progress. Their time is gone. They are relics of the past, marooned on isolated island of narrow minded prejudice and hankering for the doctrinal certainties of the past.
@Sean Ryan: Thats great for you, women will still go to England!
What medical evidence goes against a healthy clump of cells that, if not aborted, has the potential to live over 100 years when born?. Discuss.
@Sean Ryan: congratulations and I wish you well. I would never wish for anyone to terminate a pregnancy. However in some circumstances it may be necessary. Horrible scenario but If your partner needed chemo and there was a chance it could hurt the foetus then treatment cannot be given. We need to trust experts like Dr Peter Boylan and Rhona Mahony who’s vocation is to give the best possible treatment to mothers and babies. We need to trust the women of Ireland to make the right choices. Voting no won’t stop abortion. It will just export it to the UK
@Michael Lang: Tony, you surely get through each and every day powered by your own sense of self satisfaction. Your comment above says the pro-life ‘side’ are sermonising. You are constantly giving sermons, dressed up with pretend sophistication but deeply laced in arrogance. I would suggest that you take a good look in the mirror, but I’m sure you actually at regular intervals giving yourself a good pat on the back.
@Alan McCartney: Well for starters average life expectancy.
@Mary Ryan: The single most sensible and balanced view I’ve read on this site. In total agreement with you.
@Daithi: with miscarriages the figure is 18%. So still 1 in 5. It doesn’t change the statistic to any significant degree.
The article is misleading. Why doesn’t it quote the 18% figure when miscarriages are included?? Ridiculous.
@Daithi: What’s your position on smoking and drinking while pregnant?
@Dave O Keeffe: potential Dave potential back to school with you boy.
@Nick Drake: I look forward to the Referendum and to the result. I leave it to pregnant women to decide what is best for them. Pregnant women and future pregnant women will have the chance to vote. Great news.
It is not arrogance to defer to the persons affected, pregnant women, to vote and to decide as they please. I would not presume to tell any woman to have a baby or not, to continue a pregnancy or not, in contrast to you.
You are truly arrogant because you want the law and the Constitution to impose your views on women you don’t know and have never met.
@Alan McCartney: my other point would be that a clump of cells has the potential to be anything at all and that you need to be more specific. Pick up a biology book and let me know what type of cells you wish to have discussed.
@Daithi: ye something like 25% of all babies are naturally aborted in the womb.
And people need to think about that, particularly if the source of their opposition to freedom of choice is a Divine creator that stands by and allows millions of babies to die each year before they are even born.
@Michael Lang: And therein lies the problem. You believe wholeheartedly that the postion you take is the correct one to take, however so do the other side. Their are millions of people around the world that would agree with you and millions that would disagree. How do you determine what is the correct position if your not prepared to open dialogue or debate rationally? Your comment smacks of arrogance..A baby is a baby and a Foetus is a Foetus. What.? A foetus is simply just a description of a stage of development. So at what miraculous stage do you believe the foetus becomes a baby and how do you come to that conclusion? You must have some measure of when life begins and have a valid scientific explanation to back it up.
@Dave O Keeffe: check the recent article here in journal re. life expectancy dave. Looks like he’s right….
@Daithi: absolutely agree but reverse the scenario…one persons abortion is another’s persons miscarriage?
@Dermattg: which article? Searched life expectancy and health and went back a week on both and found nothing
@Dermattg: found it, seems to be based purely on the fact that more people that ever are reaching 100, which has been true every year since the first person did it really
@Seamus Fitzpatrick: When you and idiots like you suffer a miscarriage you’ll understand why having these images forced down your throat is painful. But then you never will…
@Cindy Crawford: Eventhough you appeared to hint at the fact the man in your life at that time had his say, I thought then perhaps you were pressured into it.
Now you say you’d do it all again.
Hmmmm I smell a rat.
@Francis Mc Carthy: you’ve just countered your own pro-choice position. You idiot
@Kieran Fallon: Have to admit, even though I’m 100% pro choice and definitely voting to repeal, that’s something I never thought about. While it’s not a phrase I would personally use when discussing the topic I do hear it occasionally. Certainly food for thought although while thoughtless and potentially hurtful to someone who might hear it it’s nowhere near as bad and potentially hurtful as the giant grotesque posters all over the place. Not really comparable in my mind.
@Daithi: yes it is, it’s also cruel to ignore the rights of those who are pro choice. All I see are ’NO’ posters in every rural town and village I pass through in the west, not one YES poster. Tourists and visitors are shocked by this, they are only too aware of the historic hold the Catholic Church had on the population and can’t understand why after all the scandals it seems to still hold sway, as expected the GAA are on the side
of the No… I doubly checked that my name was on electoral role, I will probably be the only YES vote at my polling station, a national school with at least 2 NO posters outside. Enough has been said, all posters if not equally distributed should come down and reporting should stop. Give people a breathe4 to decide for themselves, to take a leap of faith and support YES. Those who don’t accept that the amendment should be removed have nothing to worry about in voting YES, since they won’t ever want or need an abortion …and those who will need one can avail of one without having to take the boat to Liverpool.
@Kieran Fallon: @Kieran Fallon: having gone through two miscarraiges I can say that I was appalled when the nurse referred the growth (or lack thereof) in my wife’s womb as a baby. It was most certainly not a baby, not was it ever going to be. In both cases it had simply ceased to grow from 6 weeks so it was incredibly upsetting (not to mention patronising) to hear it being described as a baby. It was nothing of the sort. Nobody is going to make abortion compulsory. It is already happening here. Let’s trust women to exercise their right to choose. Vote YES.
@Gerard McConnell: He did have his say which was to leave the decision up to me. I didn’t mean to insinuate I was pressured by him though I was torn in both directions as to what to do. There were different reasons I chose abortion. The 8th amendment didn’t stop me from going to England & keeping it won’t stop others. I think it makes things worse as I had to save money to pay for the abortion & also travel & accommodation for myself & a friend who came with me for moral support. I thank you for your message.
@Michael Lang: Well said
@Kieran Fallon: I’m not sure if you’ve experienced a miscarriage Kieran. I presume you wouldn’t speak on behalf of those who have unless you had too.
I can tell you as someone who has that your comment above doesn’t ring true. In our case, at the time of the miscarriage, it literally was a clump of cells.
I know this because it was our first, and I was literally it’s development day by day. So calling it what it was doesn’t upset me at all.
What IS upsetting to me, is that some of the same people who argue against children being “exposed to” sex education in schools, have no problem displaying graphic and frankly misleading images.
I don’t get to opt-out my kids from seeing those images. In some cases (thankfully not here yet) images have been put through letter boxes of homes with kids.
@Daithi: didn’t the ‘yes’ campaign march outside the rotunda in sept 2017? Yes they did; and I was in there…. speaking to a woman who who gave birth to a stillborn. She has had 7 miscarriages. She stated to me “if only I could have the babies they don’t want”. I thought exactly the same as you…. don’t campaign outside a maternity hospital! Both parties have.
@Daithi: the statistics mean nothing,if just one innocent child is gratuitously,aborted it torpedoes the argument of the yes brigade .abortion on demand means that a viable human being can be terminated on the whim of another who may conceivably be mentally unstable at the time.any right thinking person would agree that cases of rape,unsustainable life,should be catered for,but,bad cases make for bad law.Stalin said that one death is a a tragedy,one million,is a statistic.think before you vote.do not let people who decide after deliberately becoming pregnant that they will change their mind after twelve weeks and kill an unborn child have more protection in law.than an innocent being who will have no more protection than a domestic animal
That doesn’t upset me at all, it’s exactly what they were. As witnessed firsthand.
The numbers are quite shocking if any way accurate It may make many rethink this yes for repeal !
@Johnny Mason: you need to make up your mind as that is about the twentieth time that you have said that…
@Francis Mc Carthy: And he has every right to keep changing his mind and he dose not have to make up his mind till he is in the ballot box.
You have little to be doing counting how many times he has change his mind ????
@Johnny Mason: Can the faceless, false profile troll explain the reasoning? Or are you a pro-birther trying to throw doubt in people’s minds?
@Francis Mc Carthy:
Some people give complex issues complex thought unlike you
This takes time and consideration – and listening honestly to both sides
Again outside your skill set and mental capabilities – if your comments represent you
@Sean Ryan: Francis Mc Carthy is right to call him out.
@HelloGoogleTracking: You still smarting from the burning’s that I have been giving you on here :) By the way,how many times will you mention ‘unborn child’ today ? I ‘m going for 100
@Dave Doyle: Are you suggesting people have no right to change their mind up to voting day?
This is massive decision for most voters except the hard-line YES and NO people.
I agree with abortion in certain case but i am totally against the 12 weeks unrestricted.
@Sean Ryan: Surely you’d want your mind made up BEFORE you enter the ballot box…. or there’s a good chance you’ll change it as soon as you’ve left it!!
Very flippant comment.
@Sean Ryan: I’m calling out an obvious troll preying on people’s doubts.
@Sean Ryan:Here is a pesky fact ; 31% of Irish women who procured an abortion in the UK, procured it during and after the 10th week of pregnancy.The % for UK women would be around the 20% mark
@Sean Ryan: is that what we are voting on. 12 weeks unrestricted?.
I thought it was to repeal the 8th amendment.
@HelloGoogleTracking: Some people didn’t need a referendum to start thinking about this subject. Some people have been quite abreast of the situation for years now and are capable of making a decision and sticking with it when no new evidence presents itself.
@Sean Ryan: abortions for everyone!! Lol
@Johnny Mason: Dont be fooled Johnny. The numbers are self serving, but more importantly we heard this rubbish/scaremongering around the time Divorce Ref. See link below for current Irish Divorce rates v the ROW
Also note, the UK has the highest rates in both divorce and abortion in Europe. Why the assumption that Ireland will follow.
@Johnny Mason: I studied the ONS report last month and this is correct. The author is selective with her choice of arguments and omits more shocking stats. Firstly the number of those travelling from Ireland is down and figures for those traveling to U.K. have not bn lower since 1969. Secondly the Repeal Writer turns a blind eye to the fact that 38% of abortions England and Wales 2016 were repeat abortions meaning women had already had previous ones. Now that’s shockingly high for our closest neighbours. And suggests a culture of post hoc quick fixes. That’s about 75,000+ abortions for which 98% NHS fund. Where is HSE to find funds for any of this? Cheaper to offer free contraception to those aged 21-23!
@HelloGoogleTracking: if anybody over the age of 15 is only thinking of this issue now then I genuinely worry about them.
@Graham.Kavanagh:
From be demonstrate some complex thought to match the complex situation.
Please I would love to hear it.
Please include the mother the child and the father – also ethics – and the reality of ending a healthy human life … I.e. abortion on demand
Everyone agrees with it for FFA threats to life and rape and incest. That would pass a referendum easily.
However that is not what is being asked – we are being asked to grant mother the right to kill their children for any reason at all.
That is very different situation and question
@HelloGoogleTracking:
Should have been “please demonstrate your complex thought on the issue”
Not empty slogans like “trust women” meaningless and reductionist and simple.
Or “it’s a woman’s choice” again overly simplified and ignoring all complexity.
I doubt you can / are unwilling.
Francis feel free yourself – however you are incapable of complex thought unfortunately.
You can look up complex in dictionary
Imagin a journal reportor leaving a fact like that out. Ha
@Dave Doyle: seems to me like you’re just “calling out” someone with a view point that differs from yours..
@Aileen Hughes: I wonder has anything changed in Ireland since 1969 in the realm of birth control? Anything at all? Surely you wouldn’t omit such a thing from your rebuttal. Why free contraception starting at 21?
@Johnny Mason: the most shocking number is “majority are under 16″. A child no prepare to motherhood been forced to have a child…good way to ruin two lives.
@sean Ryan
Just because your 11 week old fetous looks like a baby does not mean it is a baby. It is a potential baby. It has no consciousness or thoughts.
Billions of potential babies (sperm) are flushed down the jax every minute of the day. It’s not the same as killing babies.
A scan of a chimp fetous would also look like a baby but it is not.
@Dave Doyle: Its a comment and as far as I am aware we are allowed to make and I don’t need to explain anything to you so be off with yourself you bitter little boy
So what you’re basically say is there were approx 696k live births and 190k abortions registered in that year. Don’t see where the complication lies? Yes I understand the contention that using the figure of live births versus total amount of pregnancies could be misleading but as a ratio of live births to abortions, it’s still a shocking statistic about a country which has become very comfortable with its abortion regime after 50 years.
Still voting No.
@madabot: a no vote doesn’t stop any abortions, just continues to force women to travel
@madabot: I want to see the % of abortion that were done on gender where the couple did not want another boy or girl.
can we fact check that?
@Sean Ryan:you can find out for yourself,it’s not that hard to do..But you will probably end up very disappointed as the numbers are really small..Did you know that the boy to girl ratio is normal in the UK ? Yup.Great news!
@Sean Ryan: sex selective abortion is illegal in the UK (excluding medical reasons) and has been since 2008 when the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 2008 was passed, making UK abortion laws more stringent than they had been.
@Karen Wellington: the Department of Health also came out with a report/statement (2015,i believe) in which they said that if any person was caught carrying out a ‘sex selective abortion’ that they would be in big trouble with the law…
@David Cullen: and abortion pills will continue to be bought online and taken unsupervised but they don’t care about that as long as it’s not in their back yard.
@David Cullen: incorrect
@Dermattg: a citation from the Love Both Project, oh go on then, that will be credible and independent. Seriously?
@David Cullen: Then how come our figure comes no where close to one in five, explain…..
@madabot: According to the numbers in the first paragraph if 21.4% of pregnancies end in either abortion or miscarriage and 20% of pregnancies miscarriage then approx 1.4% must be abortions.
If the HSE average is accepted the the actual rate is 1 in 71.4
Ergo the 1 in 5 statement is a big fat lie. QED
@David Cullen: nobody forces anyone to if to travel,if you want to have sex with minors you go to the Far East,if you want to take drugs you go to Holland if you want euthanasia you go to Switzerland,etc.so don’t quote the laws in other countries to suit your own agenda
The ‘No’ campaign appear to be going down the Vote Leave Brexiter route of 2 years ago, with wildly inaccurate statements and sensational headlines.
@Ruairi Gagarin:
Substantiate that
@Ruairi Gagarin:
As a proportion of live births to abortions – it is 1 in 5
Perfectly accurate
@HelloGoogleTracking: then why doesn’t the poster say that? Can I suggest the answer is that although it’s accurate it’s not as impactful? So the no campaign are sacrificing accuracy for sensationalism.
@Mick Hennessy: Posters are supposed to catch your attention. They aren’t going to post that figures and then a big paragraph over how they came to that conclusion.
@HelloGoogleTracking: Verdict: Unproven.
This figure is no more accurate than Dr Peter Boylan’s assertion of “the true figure is about one in ten”. He, however is considerably more qualified to give such an opinion that you or me, unless there’s something you wish to share?
@HelloGoogleTracking: How about the ridiculous posters that your No side are putting up that go on about six month abortions when that has never been mentioned as a possibility with the legislation? There’s a clear example of a lie.
Not to mention the continued misrepresentation of what a foetus looks like at 9 weeks.
@Mick Hennessy: ‘ then why doesn’t the poster say that?’
Same reason their down syndrome poster had incorrect info. It was giving them the shock soundbite they needed. Facts came second.
@Pat Bateman: I don’t understand Pat, are you agreeing with me? Because you appear to be saying that these posters have sacrificed accuracy ( “they aren’t going to explain how they came to that conclusion” ) in the name of sensationalism ( “posters are supposed to catch your attention” ). Am I missing something here Pat?
@Keith O’Reilly: The proposal is to have abortions up to approx 6 months for health grounds. Did you not read the proposed legislation?
Have you any evidence that the image does not come from 9 weeks gestation or do you just not like it?
@retainthe8th:Did that image have to be super imposed ?
Thanks
@Francis Mc Carthy: It is incredible how poorly run the No campaign is. They are completely missing their best arguments. We are not voting on legislation, we are voting on the constitution. An enormous number of people seem to have missed that point.
@Keith O’Reilly: Ever heard of the thin edge of the wedge?,or the slug sliding on it?
@Arch Angel:
Take total births – take total abortions – work out proportion.
Answer is 1 in 5 – what is your issue?
Miscarriages are not included – these could have been aborted or carried to full term of not miscarriage.
Assuming either way is disingenuous – also as they are miscarriages the are not relevant.
Therefore it is 100% accurate.
Correct my logic if you can
@The Duke of Fluke: We are voting on legislation when all the slogans disappear but the pro-life side are no match for the bias dumped on the electorate by bundling two separate issues into one question. While a polarized electorate fight on emotional issues, it only serves those willing to push through legislation which undermines legal impartiality where taking away life is concerned.
Thought the Irish electorate was smarter than this.
@HelloGoogleTracking: eh..no it isn’t
21.1% = (Abortion +Miscarriage)
20% = Miscarriage
Therefore
Abortion = 1.4% or 1 in 71.4
it’s simple question
Do you want to continue to force women in Ireland to travel to have an abortion??
voting no isn’t going to stop anyone from travelling abroad to have an abortion.
@David Cullen:
There is no “forcing”
They can “chose” to travel or not travel and not kill their own child
@HelloGoogleTracking: And as long as abortion doesn’t happen on Holy Irish Soil it’s all ok.
@David Cullen: “Do you want to continue to force women in Ireland to travel to have an abortion??”
YES, simply because, as a matter of principle, I don’t want to see Ireland going down the same slippery slope that most other countries have done. I have no problem repealing the 8th amendment to save a mother’s life when there is no real alternative but abortion on demand is a no-go for me. If the referendum had offered repeal as question 1 and abortion as question 2 I would have been a YES and NO voter in that order.
@HelloGoogleTracking: Can they procure a safe,legal 1st trimester ‘abortion on request ‘in their own country ? Yes or No ?
Then they’re ‘forced’ to travel abroad for it…
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/forced
“A forced action is something that you do because circumstances make it necessary.” okey dokey
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/forced
“A forced action is something that you do because circumstances make it necessary.” okey dokey
@John Hagin Meade: Yes imagine we gave uppity women control over their own bodies – sure we couldn’t be having that! – lets continue to export this problem to our nearest neighbour and not give a toss about the suffering women go through. All because you as man have made a black and white judgement call about a process you will never go through. Trust women and vote yes.
@Shauna McDermott: It’s the baby’s body not the mother’s
@Sean Dilligan: as long as the brain fetus brain has no activity it is a part of a womans body, not a separate body.
@David Cullen: Voting Yes won’t stop them either. Even if the 8th is repealed and the government put legislation that allows abortion up to 12 weeks, there will still be women at 13+ weeks traveling to UK for abortion. Then what? Do we copy the uk with new legislation to allow for abortion up to 24 weeks? What if the UK change their law and allow abortion up until birth and Irish women are still travelling? Do we follow suit and change our laws too? Anyone with a bit of common sense can see where this is going. If the 8th is repealed there is no going back. Hopefully people with see the truth for what it is and vote to save the 8th.
@Francis Mc Carthy:
Nope Francis….
They can chose to travel or chose to have the baby.
They have a choice – their is no forcing – only options
@David Cullen: think she disagrees… https://www.facebook.com/lovebothproject/videos/1857678921191723/
@HelloGoogleTracking: if they don’t have the money to travel or can’t take the time of work then they are forced to have the baby. That is not choice.
@HelloGoogleTracking: If the choice is not their in their own country,then one is ‘forced’ to travel to another destination.Try harder,pet.
~there
@Roisin O’ Reilly: €60 Ryanair flight is cheaper than a return train to Cork. Is it going to be cheaper to travel to Dublin for an abortion than Liverpool? Not much in the difference I would say.
@Antis have zero solutions:
Nope – they have options and they can make choices – it is very simple.
Yes they have to chose somewhere where the service is available
Just like if legal in Ireland – they will have to pay for it – and also travel to the abortion clinic.
No different
@Roisin O’ Reilly:
If they cannot afford an abortion – it will not happen in Ireland too.
Unless you believe abortion on demand of healthy babies will be provided free of charge under our “health system”
Healthcare does not enclose ending healthy human life – if protects and saves human life.
@Dave Doyle: just quote one person who said thats okay you looderamom!
A miscarriage is not an abortion.
@Kieran Fallon: The No campaign use the word “baby” which should include miscarriages but they don’t for obvious reasons if you want to scaremonger.
@Kieran Fallon: The “pro-life” side seem to think it wasn’t a pregnancy either..
@Kieran Fallon: Medical Definition of Spontaneous abortion. Spontaneous abortion: A miscarriage, that is, any pregnancy that is not viable (the fetus cannot survive) or in which the fetus is born before the 20th week of pregnancy.
@Kieran Fallon: A miscarriage is properly described as a spontaneous abortion.
@Kieran Fallon: A miscarriage is nature’s abortion.
@Dave Doyle: And the strange irony is that many who oppose choice, also believe that God controls or has applied intelligent design to nature.
@Kieran Fallon: The correct medical terminology for a miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion.
@Kieran Fallon: a miscarriage is an abortion, any fetus that can not survive outside the womb is an aborted fetus.
So much pointless rubbish arguing semantics.
@Kieran Fallon: a miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion!
@Grainne Bracken-paul:
You are all idiots on yes side arguing that miscarriage is abortion
You just increased the ration to 1 in 4 or 1 in 3 babies are aborted in the UK
Nice own goal guys
@Kieran Fallon: The
@Kieran Fallon: FYI: The medical term for a miscarriage is “spontaneous abortion”.
@Kieran Fallon:What the fu#k has that to do with anything?
@Vigo the Carpathian: if you dont know the difference between miscarriage and abortion,maybe you’re not mature enough to vote
A lot of numerical gymnastics to reach no conclusion.
@Frank McGlynn: The conclusion would be that since it’s “unproven” it’s not the “fact” it’s being presented as. They also pick a country with different laws than were planning on introducing which will almost identical to the ones of say, Switzerland . Not only did they not see an explosion in abortion rates after introducing abortion up to twelve weeks they actually saw a reduction.. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/fertility-matters_the-secret-of-switzerland-s-low-abortion-rate/33585760
@Frank McGlynn:
Actually she proved the statistic accurate
As a proportion comparing abortions to live births
The proportion is 1 in 5
The rest is desperate spin
@HelloGoogleTracking: so you don’t believe in spontaneous abortion/miscarriage?
@HelloGoogleTracking: It’s the pro birthers spinning the figures.
@HelloGoogleTracking: did you do maths at school, because if you believe pregnancy begins at conception, which you apparently do, the 1 in 5 figure is not accurate, simple enough.
@Vigo the Carpathian: The article clarifies what is meant by unproven “which means that “the evidence available is insufficient to support or refute the claim”, therefore it is wrong to say that it is not a fact. This long-winded exercise neither proves that it is or isn’t a fact.
@Frank McGlynn: but for it to be a fact it needs to be proven true. Do you not know what a fact is?
@Paul Fahey:
Ok Paul,
Include miscarriages.
Next tell me how many would have been aborted?
Are you assuming none? Why?
Why not assume all.
Then adjust figures and what do you get?
Please tell me – I did very advanced maths while at university 4 times. With 2 degrees and 2 masters ….. what maths education do you have ?
Go Google
@HelloGoogleTracking: I suppose you could argue that a percentage approaching 20% of abortions may subsequently die anyways through miscarriage. So you could subtract something up to 4% off the 21% figure. One in six is probably a safer figure to settle on. It’s shooting yourself in the foot for pro choice to make a big deal about this, the simple ratio of live births to abortions is offputting to someone leaning towards pro life.
@HelloGoogleTracking: I have that 2 thumbs up.
@HelloGoogleTracking: no, I do not assume that none of the “miscarried” pregnancies would have been aborted, but then I did presume you would be capable of simple maths.
20% of all known pregnancies are miscarried, but it is believed that approximately 40% (miscarried before pregnancy is known) are actually miscarried. Say there are 1,000,000 pregnancies (according to Pro Life Groups), 400,000 (not counted by Pro Life Groups) will be miscarried, so a total of 1,400,000 pregnancies. Let’s say 20% of the miscarriages would have been aborted, so minus 80,000, which leaves a total of 1,320,000 pregnancies. 20%, or 1 in 5 of that total would be 264,000, but there were 190,000 abortions in the UK last year, so not 1 in 5 at all.
Shall I go further or should I send you abacus and then discuss?
@Paul Fahey:Goggles thought that a “heart” was fully formed at 12 weeks-he’s still got a lot to learn..
@Antis have zero solutions: Francis. You think human life doesn’t exist in the womb. #bananas
@Paul Fahey:
Provide peer reviewed data to support you broad strokes estimates – we can all throw estimates all over the place.
You provide a definite figure of 20% for miscarriages – this is not a scientifically accurate figure – it is a tough guideline – tough guidelines are not science.
The most accurate measure is live birth vs abortions.
All the rest of you post is supposition – exaggeration – muddling and guess work.
That is not the basis science works on – I am a scientist – what are you qualifications ?
@Paul Fahey:
That is grasping at straws – the argument of a desperate man.
If 1 in 5 viable pregnancies end in abortion (viable means not rejected naturally by the mother – miscarriage)
Then obviously the figure is accurate.
Polluting the figure with supposition guesswork and wild wild estimates – is not worthy of debate.
I estimate 90% of miscarriages would end in abortion – or 40% – or 10%…..
The point is it is impossible to know – therefore not valid data
Let’s go by facts – sounds reasonable?
@Paul Fahey:
Where is your data for unreported abortion via pills bought online in the UK?
I estimate it is 200,000 – why not if we can invent figures.
What wild guess would you care to make – I do not see it reflected in your calculations?
@Paul Fahey:
Shall I go on – the point is adding estimates and inaccurate figures does not clarify
Finally – miscarriages are medically classified as abortion.
Please add all your 40% miscarriages to the abortion figure and recalculate your ratio.
I think you will find of her worse 1 in 4 to 1 in 3
Shall I go on – or send you a book on how to think rationally – test ideas and theories – string logical thoughts together into ideas and conclusions then compare
Not much education – pity – perhaps it should be a requirement to vote
Let’s be clear here, there’s lies, damned lies, and statistics. I’m surprised to hear that the numbers of abortions in England and Wales are so high relative to the numbers of live births, but that has no impact on the debate on Ireland as far as I’m concerned. The upper limit time limit in the UK is twice that of what’s being considering on Ireland, and much more importantly, Ireland isn’t Britain. For all the cultural and historical similarities that we share there’s as many that make us different.
I prefer to respect the right to choose, that the women of Ireland should be entitled to. In an ideal world there would be no need for any abortion, however this isn’t an ideal world but one filled with many shades of grey.
@Shane McGettrick: not sure you’re right on the upper limit question.
If you look at the policy paper – http://health.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Policy-paper-approved-by-Goverment-8-March-2018.pdf – my reading is that policy 7 has the 12 week limit which is the one where no reason is needed. However policies 1-3 which do require a reason (risk to health – similar to UK) – don’t specify an upper limit.
Although not in the policy document I think they’re saying – see here from 26/03, https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-will-seek-to-ban-late-term-abortions-1.3440056
– that if there’s viability outside the womb then it will be delivered. This effectively puts an approx 24 week limit on it.
@Niall: Thanks for the information. Looking at info from the NHS, no reasons (ie. Risk to health) are required for abortion up to 24 weeks in the UK. Thats double the time frame for unrestricted abortion as per the governments policy paper. In all honesty, personal philosophy really comes into play when you get down to the nitty gritty of time limits. Personally I find 12 weeks acceptable but I’d have to seriously question unrestricted abortion up to 24 weeks.
@Shane McGettrick: yep it’s a tough one. still weighing it all up myself, trying to establish the facts.
@Niall: Facts is one thing the whole debate is short on, there’s a lot of nonsense and emotive language being thrown around by both sides.
@Shane McGettrick: food for thought…
“This is the secret of propaganda: Those who are to be persuaded by it should be completely immersed in the ideas of the propaganda, without ever noticing that they are being immersed in it.” – Joseph Goebbels
Savethe8th should also consider how many abortions occurring in England are carried out on Irish women. So their figure will fall by about 5000 – 7000 when the 8th is repealed.
@Bán: I really hope you’re not in charge of heavy machinery.
@Bán: I think the English abortion rate is quite high because Irish women give English addresses.Irish girls and women have lots of abortions because they don´t get a proper sex ed.Dutch women have one of the lowest abortion rate because they get a proper sex ed in school and they learn to stand up for themselves.It is shameful that the No campaign shames English women-like if they are aborting all the time. It is not true.If England wouldn´t allow the Irish abortions in their country there would be a lot of dead or infertile Irish women!
@Christina V.: “English abortion rate is quite high because Irish women give English addresses” …ah sure that explains it all so
Also the UK abortion figures would also include abortions performed on Northern Irish and Irish women while the live birth figures and still birth figures would not include the statistics for those jurisdictions therefore also distorting the abortion rate.
@David McDermott: The UK Department of Health records the address of every case. You can download the datasets yourself from their website. The 2016 figure was just over 4,000 for ROI and NI residents combined (~3250 ROI , ~750 NI).
@retainthe8th: for the women who give addresses in Ireland or NI. Not every women does. Just saying the figures aren’t accurate and the 20% rate is unprovable as stated in the article.
@David McDermott: We hear this claim a lot from those who are disappointed when the official stats are produced. Do you have any stats for those who gave false GB addresses?
Giving a false address in the UK is a different ballgame to giving false address in Ireland and you can be fined for it, they can immediately check your given address against your NHS number and find out that you are not entitled to NHS coverage.
@David McDermott: The way the poster presents the statistic is sensationalist, other pro-life groups present it in its full context which while less sensationalist carries the same message that 1 in 5 opportunities to abort are taken in England and Wales.
@retainthe8th: A pro choice person has been asking a question to the “pro life” people on the Facebook/twitter pages for a long time now,and she’s yet to get any response back…With your name,,maybe you’ll be the one to answer it
You want to keep the 8th when it is not preventing abortion and only serves to harm the women who *aren’t* seeking them.
How can you justify harming the women who are doing what pro life asks of them.
Thanks in advance
@retainthe8th: Not all abortions are provided on the NHS and are paid for in private clinics. The abortion figure includes non residents as the abortion was carried out in England or Wales. Only is trying to claim NHS treatment when you’re not entitled to it is an offence not giving a false address. I wouldn’t think Irish women after being forced to travel for an abortion are going to add fraud to their experience.
Just because a woman had a miscarriage does not mean that the pregnancy could’ve not ended by an abortion at another stage if it was to continue. Therefore all miscarriages should be included. As it is impossible to record all pregnancies in a country over a period of time the 20% rate is purely made up for sensationalist posters, since you consider a zygote a baby.
@Tom Doyle: I am happy to field any question.
Firstly a statistical comparison between Ireland and other European countries show we have one of the lowest abortion rates by either way of measuring it, but more importantly a longitudinal study of what happened in the aftermath of liberalisation in those countries is far more telling with Portugal being a prime example. Thus legalisation does result in much higher rates and thus not legalising saves lives.
Also we have better outcomes in pregnancy for mortality and morbidity than many countries with liberalised abortion regimes so the thesis that the 8th is harming women is not supported by the facts.
I hope this answers your query.
@David McDermott: All abortions must be reported and accurately to the Department of Health so sorry I don’t buy this. Just accept that pro-choice groups have been inflating the figures.
As for miscarriages, there is no reason to believe those pregnancies would have been aborted at a higher or lower rate particularly those miscarriages that take place before the mother knows she is pregnant. Thus the 1 in 5 figure should hold.
The value of reporting abortions versus livebirths is that it show the abortion ‘culture’ of that country.
Edit: Something the per 1,000 women aged 15-44 statistic does not reflect.
@David McDermott: in the interest of fair reporting those stats only apply to people residing in England and Wales. Not Northern Ireland or Scotland. They come from an NHS report
@retainthe8th: Can you tell us what happened after abortion was decrimanalised to 10 weeks in Portugal ? Was there anymore deaths of women from procuring unsafe abortions ? Are the rates of abortions going down ?
That would be great .
@retainthe8th: by the way,you didn’t answer the question that was asked of you :)
@retainthe8th: and it’s clear as day that you have zero compassion for women/teenagers that have been raped or for the women whose pregnancies are dying inside of them #loveboats.
@Antis have zero solutions: Francis is this your 8th account? You must have more accounts than Ansbacher. Mad as a hatter. #chooselife bud
@Sean @114: stop stalking
Considering the Journal.ie is pro-repeal, I don’t think this article does the repeal side any favours. 190,000 abortions for every 600,000 live births is a shocking figure, no matter which way you try to sugar coat it…
@Jimmy Ryan Rises: Exactly as I said the key thing with all of these statistics is comparison rather than any single measurement. The British rate is approximately four times higher than the Irish rate by either way of measuring it.
@Jimmy Ryan Rises: Spot on there. Juggling with figures doesn’t change the reality that abortion involves the intentional killing of human beings.
@Jimmy Ryan Rises: Exactly its a plain fact, try as they might to disguise it under verbal diarrhoea.
@Jimmy Ryan Rises: abortion is not a big issue with man nationalities. i knew a lebanes guy whos wife had 6 abortions , not a bother on them they were chirstians.
Get ready for but, but, but, but, but…. liberal media bias.
@Kieran Fallon: yes, well she is quite correct in detailing a pregnancy as at the point of gestation, as detailed by the Pro Life themselves. Would you not describe them as a pregnancy then?
@Paul Fahey: There’s a FactCheck and there’s a JournalCheck……they’re not always the same thing…
@Paul Fahey: The journal claims that most miscarriages occur within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, the same period when most abortions take place. There is a strong possibility that as many as 21% (the given abortion rate) of miscarriages would have ended in abortion anyway. Since the journal is reporting in “estimates” let them go and estimate that.
@Johnny Bellew: I will ask the question again, do you believe a pregnancy starts sat conception? If you do then the 1 in 5 figure is not correct, simple enough really.
@Paul Fahey: If 1 in 5 miscarriages were to end in abortion anyway then the figure would remain exactly the same, 1 in 5.
@Paul Fahey: I’m not going to say anthing about media bias. I will point out that the journal factchecked this exact claim a year ago and found it mostly true.
@Johnny Bellew: omit would not, where did you do maths? Wow, I am stunned by that lack of knowledge. If 20% of pregnancies ended in miscarriage you would be correct, but it is thought much higher than 20% of pregnancy ends in miscarriage. In fact 20% of known pregnancy ends in miscarriage, but given miscarriage tends to be earlier (80% in first trimester) in pregnancy the figure is thought to be as high as 40%.
@Paul Fahey: You jut proved my point. Of the estimated 20% that end in miscarriages it is highly likely that 20% of that 20% would have ended in abortions leaving the original figure unchanged.
Even if 80% are miscarriages, 20% of 80% is still 20% of that 80%. Think about it for a wee while. It may come to you in a light bulb moment.
@Paul Fahey: Strange how that comment questioning the partiality of the journal suddenly disappeared. Surely not Je suis Charlie Hebdo…?
Much easier fact check: Abortions are carried out on fetuses,embryos and fertilized eggs not babies. Therefore 0 in 5 babies are aborted in England.
@Bán: Semantics. The fact is that whatever you choose to call them they are living human beings and the abortion procedure kills them.
@Bán: That’s like saying a homosapien is not a person. Just makes no sense.
@Frank McGlynn: they are not a living being until the brain begins to function. You need to put your emotions aside and understand that a fetus in the early stage is NOT a human being. Not more than a spermatozoid.
@Slava Cickinas: Are you saying it is not living or it is nor human or both. All abortion procedures involve killing by various means therefore it must be living otherwise it would not have to be killed. If it is not human what is it? Ovine? bovine? Feline?
@Frank McGlynn: It is not human. Whether it is living, it depends on your point of view. A single cell is technically living…. Removing a mole is technically killing…
Terrible fact check
The conclusion has to be true – and a previous fact check said mostly true.
Based on available accurate statistics it is completely true.
Miscarriages cannot be used in the way the author did – she assumes none would have been aborted – why?
If she assumed the opposite – that all would be aborted it would have the opposite effect.
Completely biased and subjective – the opposite of what a fact check should be
@HelloGoogleTracking: how can you claim the statement is true if you find the data to be flawed?
You object to the author assuming that no miscarried/spontaneous aborted foetus would have been medically aborted if necessary, but are happy to assume that all miscarried/spontaneous aborted foetus would have been medically aborted.
@Karen Wellington: the statement is disingenuous, as it refers to a ratio of pregnancies vs abortions when in fact, the ratio quoted is live births vs abortions.
@Shane McGettrick: then the official stat.s office shouldn’t blandly use the term “conceptions” but “recorded conceptions” – because it’s not accurate and confusing – and I expect confused savethe8th. Assuming 20% of pregnancies are miscarried I make it 17.6 per cent of actual conceptions are aborted. 1 in 6. Would that make ‘yes’ voters rest easy?
@HelloGoogleTracking: Excellent point. This fact check was clearly done by a pro choice person.
As I said already even if you include miscarriages and presume none of those would have been aborted it is still 18%. Shambles of an article.
@Karen Wellington:
The statistics are not flawed – they compare accurate birth record to accurate abortion record and calculate a ratio
Introducing miscarriages to confuse the issue as the author did is disingenuous.
Simply because you cannot know if they would have been aborted or carried to term – hence you can only honestly use the official births and official abortions
Understand?
Contraception not abortion..in the case incest or rape or a known fatal foetal abnormality then yes but as early as possible..would that not be the rationale way to go…
@Dave Walsh: Is any contraceptive 100% effective? In what cases of rape or incest exactly? Ones which are unproven or ones that receive a filthy verdict under law (because that’s likely within a 12 week time frame). I see your point, I don’t agree with it regardless but it’s also completely impractical.
@Shane McGettrick: *guilty verdict. Nothing quite like having your phone make you look like a degenerate!
@Shane McGettrick:
If contraception fails – face the consequences like and adult.
Do what is right no expedient – unexpected things are often in hindsight the best things that ever happen.
Life cannot be controlled or planned 100% – killing your own child is not the answer
@HelloGoogleTracking: Nobody should made raise a kid they never planned on. If anyone chooses to do that then fair enough, if it’s what they want, it’s what they want. But the option should be available to those who’ve had contraception fail on them, among other reasons.
@HelloGoogleTracking: Just because you seem confused, killing a child is illegal in every jurisdiction and is in fact very different to the abortion of a foetus.
You’re also very quick to foist your idea of morality on society in general. It’s a bit rich spouting nonsense like “unexpected things are often in hindsight the best things that ever happened”. For example my idea of “best things” wouldn’t include having cancer treatment stopped because of an unplanned pregnancy.
@HelloGoogleTracking: If contraception fails – face the consequences like and adult. – that is where the responsible adult will go and procure a safe,,legal abortion.Try to keep up
The rest of your post is complete emotional garbage..
@Dave Walsh: so should we be judge and jury like having a selection process? Everyone in that line can get an abortion and the loose women on the other line has to stay pregnant? Irish women are having abortions and that will continue to happen. Better sex education together with more available contraception could help reduce the numbers for sure but you will never totally stamp out abortion.
@Dave Walsh: But why is it ok then? You’d have to make the woman go on trial to prove it was rape or incest, that means her abortion would depend on a conviction. It just doesn’t work to do it that way, it’s totally impractical.
@Gav Quinn: Poland doesn’t require a conviction for its rape exception for example, so alternative ways of legislating do exist and nearly 50 countries have squared that circle.
@retainthe8th: Fudged that circle you mean. We’ve all had enough of “an Irish solution to an Irish problem” at this stage.
@Keith McDonagh:
Lots of things are unfair in life
Killing other innocent human beings is never the answer
Especially your own child – because it doesn’t match your plan – develop some wisdom and values
@Shane McGettrick: “We’ve all…” Yeah, everyone agrees with you..
@HelloGoogleTracking: No one is killing anyone, there’s a difference. Also, everyone lives by their own wisdom & values. You stick to yours & I’ll stick to mine. Yes there are a lot of things that are unfair in life but that doesn’t mean every single bit of bad luck that falls on someone has to stay with them forever. If there’s s way out & they want to take it then why shouldn’t they? If something was to happen to you that you didn’t want, you’d take any oppurtunity to get out of it or stop it & don’t pretend you wouldn’t, we all would.
@Keith McDonagh:
Ok do you have values about human rights?
If so why do you want to remove them from unborn humans?
Contradict me that unborn are human if you can – it is impossible – it is a scientific fact.
If another value u have is honesty and fairness – consider the child dying in elective abortion without medical need – how can you dismiss their humanity and worth?
@HelloGoogleTracking: Of course I have values for human rights, what sort of idiot wouldn’t? Which is why I believe that everyone should be able to live freely & be able to make whatever decisions they feel is right for them if they find themselves in a undesirable situation rather than have people saying “Well you’re f**ked now, suck it up & accept it”
If a woman finds herself pregnant through whatever the cause. Then her rights take presidence over the unborn child they didn’t plan on & if people’s lives & plans for their own lives look like they’re going to be altered in any way they didn’t count on then they should have options available to them in order to do what they think is best for themselves. If they’re willing to accept any changes & really see them through then great, all power to them. If any aren’t then that’s their own decision & nobody else has any right, regardless of whatever your views are on the matter to stop them from doing it.
Your life, your mind, your body, your business. If it doesn’t affect you then you really have no business getting involved.
@Keith McDonagh: “Your life, your mind, your body, your business. If it doesn’t affect you then you really have no business getting involved.”
This is anarchy but Keith here wouldn’t notice that it can be applied to any criminal act. It sounds cheerful like something a child would say but thankfully law and order is based on rules and nothing like the giddy nonsense surrounding a 7 week old son or daughter in the womb.
@Gerald Kelleher: Of course it can be applied to a criminal act. But this isn’t (or shouldn’t, I suppose) a criminal act & so are other things where “Your life, your mind, your body, your business. If it doesn’t affect you then you really have no business getting involved.” is a perfectly valid form of reasoning so your statement is irrelevant in this case.
@Keith McDonagh:
People can live freely and make decision UNLESS it infringes on someone else’s human rights.
It is simple – called balance of rights.
No one should be free to kill another human – very simple.
Unborn human children – the child of the mother carrying them (assume the are healthy and healthy pregnancy) – if you the “freely decide” to have an abortion.
Then obviously you are ending a human life – this is not consistent with values about human rights.
Whether or not you agree – it is important to acknowledge this is a valid point
@Keith McDonagh:
Balancing human rights is the basis of ALL law – and what courts do every day.
To claim that people are free to do anything they want is non sense.
People are not free to kill each other – because we all have a right to life.
Unborn children also have that right in Ireland – we are voting to remove human rights.
I will never vote to remove human rights out of principle.
I can agree to FFA/ threat to life of mother / rape / incest – these I can justify ethically.
It is not possible to ethically justify killing a child on demand
I would also accept all contraception including morning after pill – and the more extreme 5-7 day version – these are not abortion of killing a child.
The Journal already did a fact check and found 1in5 to be mostly true.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.thejournal.ie/yes-to-life-life-institute-8th-amendment-abortion-leaflet-facts-3058066-Nov2016/&ved=2ahUKEwiCtOW82draAhVQzqQKHYdrDeYQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw1hv8IGKzZ487r-eXIpQyHa
@Shawn O’Ceallaghan: It is wrong, it’s not taking all the mitigating factors into account. How many were necessary? It’s too general, it’s not data. Of course that doesn’t matter if you’re against it.
@Shawn O’Ceallaghan: Fact checking sites are basically nonsense. What is really needed these day is actual fact-checking of fact-checking sites…
@Gav Quinn: its not wrong its just using data that is technically correct. Plus are the yes side really arguing that abortion is ok because it will mean only killing 1in10 rather than 1in5.?
@Gav Quinn: its not wrong its just using data that is technically correct. Plus are the yes side really arguing that abortion is ok because it will mean only killing 1in10 rather than 1in5.?
@Shawn O’Ceallaghan:
From the article you linked
3. ”In Britain, 20% of all babies have their lives ended by abortion” The claim is UNPROVEN.* (for the same reasons as above)
You might want to read that again. They’ve amended it to take in to account the possible number of pregnancies that end in miscarriage. As I pointed out last week the NO side never seems to consider these babies even when they say life starts at conception. I hate sloppy maths.
@Darren Byrne: im not on the no side in fact im for choice i just think its important to discuss all the details. I would argue life starts at conception though.
@Shawn O’Ceallaghan: So you are not on the no side, but you believe human life starts at conception? So you think killing a human life should be a choice?
Even if it was true, every woman who went for one made the decision to do it. Then there’s those who decided they didn’t want one & had their kids. If you decide you don’t want an abortion then great. If your happy then that’s all that matters. If another woman does have one, for whatever her reason, then that’s her choice to make, just as much as it’s your choice to not have one. If this isn’t passed, it won’t stop an abortions from happening, those who’ll plan on having then will still travel to the UK for them & then in maybe another 30 years time, the issue will be brought up again & there might be another referendum on it. Part of the reason I’m voting yes is because I’m thinking of the long run more so than anything else.
@Keith McDonagh: actually, I just thought if another thing, if women are still forced to travel to the UK for an abortion, will they also have to get a visa to travel after Brexit?
@Keith McDonagh: and how many will perish in the intervening 30 years before we re-consider keith? Are we really so different from US and UK? Could their figures for a similar time period give us any credible prediction? Personally would find it hard to reconcile it to be honest.
I think it may be fair to assume that many of these miscarriages (as the journal says, most occur within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy but they have no figures to back this up) would have ended in an abortion anyway and there is little reason to believe that the figure would be below the 21.39% rate. Hence the abortion rate would likely remain similar to the 1 in every 5 rate. Fact check that.
@Johnny Bellew: Exactly where a spontaneous miscarriage occurred very early in pregnancy (when most do) there is no reason believe abortion would have been less or more likely once pregnancy was detected.
@Johnny Bellew: are you suggesting that pregnant women call ‘will’ a spontaneous abortion/miscarriage to happen?
How do you deduce that these miscarried / spontaneously aborted pregnancies would have eventually been medically aborted if nature hadn’t taken care of it first?
@Karen Wellington: No Karen, that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that excluding miscarriages the abortion rate in England is 1 in 5.
I believe it is fair to assume that if those unfortunate mothers had not miscarried that 1 in 5 would have chosen abortion anyway, the same as the national rate.
Absolute nonsense. You’ll spin anything for ‘repeal the 8th’.
The fact that you had to go back and update your 2016 article which rated this claim “mosty True” speaks for itself:
@Gav Quinn: Gav, you could actually argue on the point Emma makes. Resorting to name calling is actually a sign you don’t have anything substantive to argue against her point with…
@Emma Murphy:don’t be getting too upset
@Emma Murphy: wow.
What’s significant about the figures quoted is the fact it’s women(?) under the age of 16 that account for most abortions 61.5%.
Now while i agree totally with the Repeal the 8th, this figure is appalling. It poses so many questions. There are obvious good reasons why a person that age shouldn’t bring a child into the world. But why is it happening? To me it’s down to lack of education and responsibility of parents.
We need to know those figures as they relate to Irish females of the same age.
@Dave Doyle:
Make pregnancy illegal without a license.
Punish men and women who do not responsibly prevent it – and parents for underage.
That would end the need for abortions – and not require giving the license to kill innocent humans to anyone.
@Dave Doyle: Crazy percentage
@HelloGoogleTracking: Absolutely NO to all your 3 points.
@Dave Doyle: I think you are reading that statistic wrong Dave.
The rate of abortion for under 16s is 61.5% of total conceptions for that age group. Not 61.5% of total abortions. If you see the rate of abortions for under 16s is actually very low at 1.7 per 1000 women. The rate for 21-22 year olds is 22 per 1000.
So conception rates for under 16s are pretty low compared to other age groups…
@Jimmy Ryan Rises: you’re spot on.Going by stats that were done in 2011,there was 81,000 teenage (15-19 yrs) pregnancies.Of those,32,400 were terminated.The number of abortions that were carried out that year was 189,931…which makes the total of 32,400 about 17% of all terminations..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4852976/table/T1/
*couldn’t find the stats for 2016
@Dave Doyle:
Absolute no to killing children
Why not need a license to have children – it would solve a lot of social problems too.
And ensure all children are wanted and loved – and not killed for expediency.
@HelloGoogleTracking: Great idea, lets have enforced vasectomies too
After all they’re less invasive than tubal ligation,it is reversible and it would finally give the man control over his body. Incapable of impregnating no crisis pregnancies – amazing
@Laneyh:
Male pill would do the trick – and punish both man and woman if unlicensed pregnancy results.
Simply make people responsible
As the debate has clearly shown women are simply not willing to take responsibility for there actions and own children – a terrible reflection on them (this refers to abortion on demand for trivial reasons – which everyone is arguing for on yes side)
It would be fully accurate to say that in England and Wales where abortion was an option it was used 1 in 5 times. Our rate is approximately a quarter of that.
The key thing with all of these statistics is the comparison rather than the individual figure.
@retainthe8th: Moer spoofing. The true Irish rate is unknown because the amount of abortion pills being imported is unknown.
@The Risen: I am commenting on the English-Welsh rates
@retainthe8th: From your post….
” Our rate is approximately a quarter of that.”
So you did comment on ours. Jesus, can you lot be straight about anything?
@The Risen: surely the true English/Welsh rate is unknown too therefore because how many there have used the abortion pill? Gosh you lot would spin anything.
Genocide against the unborn,right on our doorstep…..
And we call ourselfs civilized and modern…
It doesn’t matter to LoveBirth, they don’t care about any facts or statistics. Like Brexit, like Trump, rationale and facts don’t matter. All that matters is making an emotional impact. Like Brexit and Trump supporters, there isn’t anything you can do to shake their belief in it. They don’t care. They’re against it. That’s all. They don’t care.
@Gav Quinn: Isn’t the whole Yes argument now about emotional pulling of the heartstrings around the hard cases.
@retainthe8th: Irrespective of any campaign I’m voting to repeal for multiple reasons but not least among those is pregnancy care and options for those continuing with their pregnancy. It is unacceptable that formal consent is not sought from women ahead of any procedures or actions relevant to them take place
So 1 in 5 English pregnancies are terminated is 100% true.
I never saw such literary hand wringing in my life.
I have no doubt how the author/researchers feel on the matter.
The main beneficiaries of the proposed change will be women and girls and their partners who did not plan the pregnancy and, for a variety of reasons, do not want to proceed with it. Admittedly the arguments for change that get broadcast tend to concentrate on the “horror” rare and exceptional cases. Which is a shame really. Are we not mature and confident enough to say that women or couples have the right to decide if a pregnancy should be terminated but instead have to resort to harping on about the extreme cases which are by definition going to be rare. The figure of 1 in 5 is shocking and is a sad reflection on how men and women trivialize the act of copulation as in “having a quick shag after a load of drink.”
@Martello Mulligan:
So true.
@Martello Mulligan: an honest assessment martello. But “the pregnancy (which) should be terminated” would maybe beg to differ that they are merely a choice. Judging by the human will to live that we witness all around us maybe they should be afforded their shot at life as difficult as that may be to grant at the time. Perhaps we need to build a real society to make this genuinely possible.
To me it doesnt matter if its 1 in 5 or 1 in a million , Taking the life of any human is just wrong , if you wouldnt kill a child outside of the womans body , why are you willing to kill a child inside of the womans body.
The Journal agreed with the 1 in 5 figure weeks ago. Here they are spinning the yarn again in desperation….have any of the no voters or even the undecided voters actually googled the image of what a 12 week pregnancy looks like. Open your eyes. Open your hearts. EVERYONE deserves a chance to life. I’m adopted. I’ve have been so fortunate. I have my own children now. How dare anyone of you ‘yes’ campaigners believe that you have the absolute right to decide if a child lives or dies. This campaign is about the right to life. I have as much right to be in this life as you do.
@Maeve Wall: apologies … this was meant to read as …. have any of the ‘yes’ voters and the undecided voters googled ……
Seems this article is being argumentative. Clear conclusion 1 in 5 babies in England are aborted. Miscarriages are a total non issue. Thanks journal for wasting our time with above non data. Vote no we know the rate here is dramatically lower and hence we have hundreds of thousands more great young people born since 1983. Thanks to the wise voters in 1983.
I’m undecided how to vote. But this fact check conclusion is misleading.
It’s fair to assume that any miscarriages had hypothetically not resulted in that way, they would presumably have resulted in the 21% abortion rate.
It’s not dissimilar to the ‘don’t knows’ in any random poll we see. Most people assume they will eventually breakdown in a similar ratio to those that do know.
This statement of 1 in 5 is largely correct going by any reasonable persons way of assessing statistics. Or maybe out at most by a couple of percent one direction or the other.
Using linguistic gymnastics to suggest otherwise is misleading.
@TradingDuck: The key lesson in the statistic is that where abortion was an option it was chosen in just over 1 in 5 cases.
@TradingDuck: You can´t decide how you vote?Please vote yes even if you disagree with abortions. 8th is not only about abortion.8th brings obstetric violence like forced introductions, forced vaginal examinations and even forced c-sections.more info at Aims Ireland.8th affects the consent rights of laboring and birthing women! For this reason women can´t trust doctors and often lie to them about their health and some even try to give birth completely alone. 8th is dangerous for mothers and babies. Good health care is based on trust.For the abortions many countries with liberal abortion laws have low abortion rates.Like Dutch women have a low abortion rate and a very good sex ed. Today with the internet you can find so many abortive herbs and abortion forums .It is very dangerous and only few clicks away.
Let’s not forget that the referendum is about removing restrictions on a legitimate medical procedure from the constitution where it has no place, allowing legislation to keep women safe in their own country under the care of their doctors.
Arguments against this expose an uneducated point of view based on a woman hating controlling bias.
@Kevin Slater: “If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.” – Joseph Goebbels
@Kevin Slater:
Actually about removing human rights from unborn
Educate yourself – without removing these rights your “legitimate medical procedure” is not legitimate – and currently is not.
Stuck to the facts
The journal tried to set out and disprove saves point but ended up nearly proving it for them.. u would love if the saves wouldnt check their facts like the leftys do on everything.
So The Journal previously found the 1 in 5 statistic to be true but finds it to be unproven. Shameful behaviour but I am not surprised.
@An_Fear_Liath: incorrect. It found the assertion unsupported by evidence, unproven.
Interpretation lies at the heart of this.
The journal did its best to try and find a way to make the figure look wrong but still didn’t manage to. Surprised they actually ran with the story.
@Skimothy: exactly. Try as they may to find a crack in the stats they have failed miserably. 1 in 5 is a shocking statistic but that’s what’s in store when abortion on demand is legislated for. With the crazy gang vying for who can be even more ‘liberal’ I expect that our stats will be there our thereabouts given time. A scary thought but you know it’s so hip and atheist. New world order, survival of the fittest and those with the trendy blue eyes and blonde hair or whatever’s in vogue.
@Sean @114: unproven.
@Michael Lang: neither proven nor disproven Tony and bearing mind the extreme lefty leanings of those who were trying to do the disproving, I think we can make our own conclusions.
A spontaneous abortion ( miscarriage) cannot be compared with a planned abortion . Anyone who thinks that they are in any way the same thing is creating their own reality.
A miscarriage is nature taking its course.
. An abortion is an intervention to stop nature taking its course.
I am really taken aback at the level of ignorance about pregnancy shown by some posters . What’s more concerning that some people don’t even know enough to make an informed decision on such an important issue .
Wonder how many were Irish women going to the UK and how that would impact on these figures. Irish women shouldn’t have to travel to another country for an abortion when it can be provided in this country!
@Paddy: I was thinking the very same thing when i saw that poster. Its like being told it does not happen if its not happening in Ireland.
In the gestational stages – it’s a teeny weeny bay-bee,teeny bay-bee
Born stages- it’s also a teeny bay-bee,getting bigger bay-bee,much bigger bay bee ,much much bigger bay bee,biggest bay-bee..
@Francis Mc Carthy:
Your comment says volumes about the maturity of the pro-abortion camp; and this more eloquently than anyone else could hope to achieve. Your scoffing is both puerile and despicable (given its context).
@Francis Mc Carthy: I have to say it having seen you comment on these threads numerous times there is something very weird about you, worrying even. Wouldn’t let you near a baby.
@Alan McCartney: I am weird.Always have been.By the way,this weirdo brought up 5 healthy babies :)
Hi Thomas ; i’m only saying what the 70% plus of anti-choicer’s keep on calling the non viable embryo.That’s all.
“pro abortion camp” -you forgot to put ‘safe’ and ‘legal’ before ‘abortion’
but ‘pro illegal aborts’ have a habit of doing that..
@Alan McCartney: wouldn’t let him near a barbie never mind a baby.
Hold on. There were over 190 000 babies aborted in the UK in 2016. That’s shocking. I’m voting NO.
@Jason Smith: how many abortions in the UK will your shouty NO prevent?
@Michael Lang: it’s not about preventing abortions in the UK Tony, it’s about preventing them in Ireland.
Soooo thats a yea then.
889,788 recorded pregnancy
190406 end in abortion
( shocking number)
That 21:39%
Plus Hse 20% of all end in misscarrage.
So yea roughly 1:5
As much as the journal cant accept it. Its there
It is the individual who has to be happy with their decision, it is not for anyone else of us to judge or decide for them.
I don’t like the way such a sensitive subject is ‘marketed’. It is a heartless approach on the Vote No side and only hurts those who have been affected by pregnancy related trauma.
Also, while I do want to talk to my children about abortion, they are too young at the moment, and are definitely affected by the images, forcing me to explain a subject they do not fully understand, leaving me, as a parent, angry at the tactless nature of this campaign.
@Tippgirl: Utter nonsense. Murder is never “up to the individual”. It’s just plain illegal. And if you want abortion legalised, damn right you should have to explain it to your children.
“When a mommy isn’t in the mood to get fat, she asks a doctor to cut up her son or daughter into little pieces and take it out of her tummy”.
@rathminer: your quotation of what you said to your own children does you no credit.
@rathminer: I do want women to have choice, and I will explain it to my children when the time is right. Your disgusting comments above are exactly what I am talking about, shoving your opinion down everyone’s necks, rather than keeping it as the personal choice that it is. If a woman is faced with this decision at all, it would ever be an easy one, whatever country it is legal in, at least if it was an option in this country we could also offer counselling and support, which may lead to an alternative choice rather than termination.
Isn’t it likely though that this number also includes the many Irish women who travel to the U.K. for an abortion, if so perhaps it would be more correct to combine the Irish and U.K. birth rates to get a more accurate figure.
Regardless I have a problem with the fact that a woman can be forced to continue with a pregnancy that will kill her on the basis that it is not currently killing her even when doctors admit when it does start to kill her that there would not be enough time to save her life.
One way or another prolife is a farcical term it’s really just pro birth with no consideration given to whether the foetus could survive as in the case of FFA or have a serious and detrimental impact the quality of the woman’s life. To force anyone to be a martyr in such a way is just wrong.
If you include miscarriages the number of abortions is still 18% so if you round the it’s still 1 in 5.
Talk about doing everything in your power to debunk something.
Anyway 190,000 abortions in one year is deeply disturbing. What is going on??
@Thomas Smith: you’d certainly hope a fact check (of all things!) wouldn’t show such a clear bias.
It really is very frustrating how people can’t just simply give facts and leave it at that rather trying to spin their own narrative into it.
Laws and Constitutions or other forms of normative control will not reduce the incidence of abortion.
The incidence of abortion can be reduced by better education, easier access to and more efficient use of contraception, better social, economic and health supports for pregnant women, an official state salary for pregnant women during pregnancy and 2 years afterwards, including maintenance of social protection credits during and after maternity leave, cheaper state paid crèche facilities, priority access to adequate and suitable social housing, income support schemes, taxation incentives, access to free crèche facilities in educational institutions, mandatory employer provision of crèche facilities, and quota systems so that pregnant women do not lose out in career progression, all contributing to making it easier fir women to continue pregnancies.
There will always the cases where abortion is unavoidable and where a pregnancy may be unendurable for one reason or another. These should be alllowed.
One way to get a fast eviction in many areas is for a female tenant to become pregnant. Out you go is the response of many landlords.
If we were really serious about reducing the incidence of abortion, we would address the social, economic, health, housing and cost factors which militate in favour of the necessity of abortion.
@Michael Lang: you’re right Let’s address the root causes and then we won’t need to worry about abortion. What you’re basically saying is that abortion is an easy and convenient means for addressing our societal problems. I agree. The unlimited on demand cohort are the ‘I want’ mob. No consequences or responsibilities as a result of my actions. I want easy and convenient escape routes, suspended sentences if you will. Education and an acceptance of some responsibility would be a refreshing solution proposal.
@Michael Lang: and if you were really serious about reducing abortion you would provide proper state support for mothrrs babies and families while maintaining the 8th. Vote No Thanks.
Really letting yourself down here, Aoife. You’ve actually proved the posters are correct! Miscarriages can’t be aborted, so of course they don’t qualify. The Journal For Yes campaign is really clutching at straws now.
The journal ie confirms “The ONS(UK Office of National statistics) shows percentage of conceptions leading to abortion in 2016 across all ages is 21.7%”
It would be interesting to know how many included in those statistics are Irish people who have had to travel to England to access healthcare that should be offered at home in Ireland? This referendum is not about abortion. It’s about women having access to healthcare should they need it and that they can practice their own decisions within their own right about their own healthcare choices. quite simply this referendum is not about abortion, it’s about access to healthcare options. If you vote no, you’re denying yourself as a woman the right to full healthcare access and you’re denying your doctors to give you access to healthcare services even in cases where their medical opinion would be correct…..
@Ruth Barry: couldn’t agree there Ruth. This referendum is entirely about abortion. And the 8th amendment is the only protection for at least 50% of those directly involved in every case.
Oh what shocking statistics. 21.7% of pregnancies end in abortion??
Clearly abortion on demand covered by NHS through private abortion clinics.
We’ve seen where the abortion staff get paid bonuses for numbers of abortions. Fact.
VOTE NO.
If it was up to the No side, they would love to see women who had miscarriages jailed for decades as happens in some south American countries. Their only aim is to punish women to sustain some societal morals that only them them can justify in their books.
@Marie McCormack: true. Well said.
@Marie McCormack: Central America, I think you mean.
@Timothy McCarthy: well, central america would be too. El Salvador is notorious for their engraved religious believes and jailing women for the crime of having a miscarriage. In the end, how would a woman prove it was not induced. Instead of counting the abortion rate in the UK, it is better to look at those countries. UK is compassionate towards its women – also towards Irish women who have nowhere else to turn. Let’s compare to countries without abortion and with no access to a country like UK. Guess pro life rhetoric wouldnt be supported as much when people saw their campaighn’s real face and aims.
@Marie McCormack: Seriously! You believe the NO campaigners want to punish women! Yet voting YES is actually punishing the unborn….with abortion as the solution….and that’s ok with you. We need to work on solutions for unwanted pregnancies ….. the unborn need a voice and women need more help for the predicament they find themselves. Your words are harsh and untrue.
@Maeve Wall: you think it is not harsh to keep a girl/woman pregnant for 9 months against her will? it is considered torture. If you find the reality in that post harsh then maybe you havent lost your compassion and can still see what happens when there is no UK next door.
@Marie McCormack: this feed is starting to sound like an episode of The Handmaids Tale
@Marie McCormack: well not too. South America and Central America are too different regions. And the article you mention was about a woman in El Salvador. So maybe stick with the facts and not blame a whole region.
@Timothy McCarthy: no article was mentioned by me at all. Both central and South America are notorious for their deeply religious views and punishing women under outrageous circumstances. Latin America has one of the highest teen pregnancy rates. No abortion. Poverty. Hunger. These are the places Irish should consider before voting. Everyone is on a high horse because the UK is sorting this entire mess out. If there was no UK, Ireland would have legalized abortion long ago or would be jailing women for miscarriages. Take any country where abortion is restricted – they go to the neighbor for help.
@Marie McCormack: just wrong.
@League of shadows: There will be no abortions here VOTE NO
The numbers are still brutal, clearly in England Abortion is a very acceptable widely used (if very effective) contraceptive. Not sure that is the best type of contraceptive method around but hey I am a man what the Fcuk would I know.
A miscarriage is abortion in the natural … a cruel side of nature. Therefore, any figures for miscarriage could be included in the abortion figures, making the 1 in 5 claim quite tame in comparison surely?
When you include miscarriages the number is still 18%, so perfectly reasonable to state 1 in 5.
Talk about going out of your way to debunk something!!
Either was 190,000 babies aborted is deeply disturbing. What is going on over there??
@Thomas Smith: tragic numbers. Would also be interesting to see the fruits of the industry. What does the abortion factory turnover in $$ every year? A lot of factors at play and easy dollars to be made. It’s an industry at the end of the day, like dentistry.
@Sean @114: no dollars in Ireland or the UK.
@Michael Lang: i think BPAS generate income in the order of £30m pa in the UK. Big business. Granted abortion is legal in the UK up to 6 months but I would guess that McDonald, Coppinger, Smith and Co will push for similar thresholds if a Yes vote should result. That’s the real danger, the crazies pushing for unrestricted abortion.
Well this 1:5 statistic is skewed, as how many Irish are going over to get it done there. And this is the reason why I will vote yes, we can not export our problems. We need to deal with it here in Ireland. Also I don’t think we are that similar to the English to use that static for them and us.
@Timothy McCarthy: firstly the stat is specific to English people. (You must give your address when their)
Secondly even if it didn’t, the number of Irish is a drop in the ocean. There were 185000 there last year – versus just 4000 Irish people. It doesn’t change the facts in any significant way at all.
@TradingDuck: so people can not make up an address to fill in a form?
And secondly only 4000 people so what number for you is a number too high to get it done in England.
@Timothy McCarthy: work out the %s Timothy and do you seriously think that Irish mothers faking addresses are making a dent in those stats no matter how many times ROSA may say they are? It’s akin to a human abattoir at the moment and I say that as somebody who is in favour of repeal but against abortion on demand.
@Sean @114: human abbatoir is a histrionic comment.
@Michael Lang: yet accurate Tony. How else would one describe numbers like 190,000 abortions per annum?
@Sean @114: firstly I am taking about the numbers and they are including Irish women wanting abortions and not Irish women that are having births so the number is wrong fact and that is what I am saying. Your against abortion on demand I get that but you are using facts from England and not Ireland as we don’t have abortion here. I believe that we Irish are different to the English and won’t use it in the same manner.
So, basically after all that bulls*it you wrote the conclusion is the same… Great work!
Ireland would have long ago had abortion available if not the UK solving Irish women’s issues when Ireland turns a blind eye and some still try to show some moral high ground. You should thank the UK if anything else for the fact that Ireland has been so backward in this issue for so long. Whether it is 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 is irrelevant. The question boils down to whether you agree to torture the woman for 9 months and force though birth against her wish or she has some value. And no, a fetus at 10 weeks does not look anything like a baby it looks like any fetus in the animal kingdom because they all develop similarly at that stage. They all look like there is a head and 4 limbs.
@Marie McCormack: and so…..Mother Theresa: If a mother can kill her own child – what is left for me to kill you and you to kill me – there is nothing between.
@Dermattg: the same one who thought it was a great idea for people with terminal cancer to suffer without pain relief cause in her mind it was the right thing? Same one who never went to ask how her own mother was? You need to guide yourself with better idols in this world.
@Marie McCormack: from the same source Marie https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/04/mother-teresa-admiration-sainthood-dying-kolkata
@Marie McCormack: cant agree there marie
Did they count ectopic pregnancies in the figures of abortions? How about assisted miscarriages where they give medication or a D and C to progress a miscarriage? What percentage are due to a fatal foetal abnormality. What about multiple births with twins, triplets etc where one or more foetus doesn’t survive? What about still birth pregnancies?
@Sandra: 3112 Stillbirths it states in article.
@Aine O Connor: I see that once but much more mention of live birth figures versus abortion figures. stillbirth iss only recorded after 24 weeks, before that it is a miscarriage which isn’t recorded.
What the statistics certainly show is that in the UK abortion is anything but rare. What I would like to know at this stage is why pro-choice campaigners are so reluctant for the general public to see/know images of unborn children at 12 weeks gestation; images of abortion victims; details of how abortions are actually carried out and the instruments used; stories of women who regret their abortions; the physical danger to women of carrying out abortions; the stories of women suffering mental illness as a result of having an abortion even to the point of suicide; stories of fathers who suffer anguish to the point of suicide having paid for abortions.
@Michael Daly: abortion porn advocate.
@Michael Daly: you mean the ones reading poems, yawning and telling their mums how much they love them? Thought we seen enough of them on posters, no?
@Michael Lang: don’t hide from the facts Tony. This is how abortions are performed, these are the lives they are performed on, this is how the bodies are disposed of. It’s all factual, no CGI, why would the liberal snowflakes wish to hide from this. They find it visually repugnant yet advocate it.
@Sean @114: ever heard of abortion pills?
@Michael Lang: or innocent unborn advocate?
@Michael Lang: that would be more palatable to you Tony? Out of sight, out of mind. Tragic.
@Michael Lang: Truth advocate.
@Michael Daly: Is it the UK or England ? as the posters say England but the stats are for England and Wales. The stats would also currently include the thousands of Irish women who travel to the UK. I’m pro-choice and have no issue with a 12 week scan being shown. I don’t think it is appropriate for posters however along with ones talking about killing and abortion. Children can read from approx age 5-6. They can certainly determine simple words like baby and kill. It is unfair to burden them with adult debate , to frighten them or cause them to question their own parents. There are stories of regret, mental illness etc. but as yet no face to these stories so you’ll forgive me if I cannot get fully on board with them seeing as they’re at urban legend level currently.The majority of abortions occur within the first 9 weeks and involved pills not instruments. Some of the pro-choice campaigners have had abortions, they don’t regret it and would appear to be ok with talking about their experience.
So can they be reported to the advertising standards? Surely they can’t use inaccurate information like this?
@Adele Kierans: http://www.presscouncil.ie/making-a-complaint
For anyone who wants to make a complaint.
If the referendum passes and based on the 1 in 5 statistic in Britain that means that every year Ireland would record approx. 14,000 abortions each year.
That means that we will see abortion clinics opening up here as the abortion business is very lucrative. Plenty of money to be made from women’s mistakes and tragedies.
The main reason the 1967 law was passed in Britain was to eliminate back street abortions . It was meant to be a last resort for women in trouble but as time went on it is now seen as a right.
Almost 200,000 abortions are carried out in Britain each year for any reason.
Would be interesting to know how many Irish women are in that statistic as it’s throwing the UK register out a bit I’d imagine. As a woman who’s had a miscarriage it’s shocking to me every time I see these callous posters. No woman (I know) in their right mind chooses abortion as a form of birth control. I’m sick to my stomach of these disgusting graphic posters which are very misleading. Making out woman can’t be trusted and are callous baby killers is just immoral.
The question that needs to be asked is this –
Will a single healthy, innocent baby die if I vote yes? If the answer is yes, can you vote yes? That’s the question. Only you have the answer.
The Journal says in the above that
“in England & Wales in 2016
21.39% of all recorded pregnancies ended in abortion
61.5% of recorded pregnancies for under 16 year old ended in abortion”
that is 1in5 of all
and 3in5 of under 16s
Amazing that the journal are now re-writing their own fact checks, this was fact checked and rated “mostly true” not so long ago.
The UK NHS say 15 to 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage – if you do the very simplest of estimates add the 3 figures provided above for live births, still births and abortions – use the highest figure for miscarriage at 20% then it comes to more than 1 in 6. The figure is accurate, this is a really desperate attempt by the journal to muddy the waters.
Live births: 696,271
Stillbirths: 3,112
Abortions: 190,406
Fk miscarriages…that’s one in five by any common sense meaning.
I wonder how many of them were Irish………
Any chance Factcheck would have a look at the claim on the MASSIVE poster outside the Sugar Club on Leeson Street about abortion at 6mths? A bloody ludicrous claim if ever I saw one….
@Gill Brennan: What does it say? The proposed legislation would allow abortions up to viability (~6 months depending on each case) on health grounds. Did you not know that?
@retainthe8th: there is no abortion at 6 months. Its called early delivery. WOuld you be against it too to save the woman? Wouldn’t doubt – women dont matter for the No side anyway. REPEAL
Every edge case can be argued away in 2 minutes. Rape does not stop the baby being a baby. The mother should have the baby (a heroic act) and then CHOOSE HERSELF to keep the baby or give it up for adoption to a couple who are ready to love the child.
Abortion is barbaric. It shoud be outlawed worldwide.
Agreed
Jaysus, I’m undecided but ye went an awful length to prove its undecided.
Abortionists are murderers and should be treated as such. Abortion supporters are accessiories to murder. I’m no longer going to stay quiet about this issue. You have the blood of the innocent on your hands if you vote yes to this. VOTE NO.
The suggested inclusion of miscarriage numbers, which are unknown, is a red herring. 80% of miscarriages occur in the first trimester. It is unreasonable to presume that if there had not been a miscarriage there would not have been an abortion. For obvious reasons, the metric of the percentage of births to abortions is used. I am in favour of repeal, but I am also in favour of dealing with reality.
The Journal is “fact checking”?!
Maybe they could start with their own articles before worrying about the speck in someone else’s eye…
the choice should be there. dont get one if you dont want one. Its 2018? Whats the problem?//?
@Jonathan Clerkin: the baby might see a problem Jonathan but can’t express it yet
So in other words, the No campaigners use or add miscarriages to their abortion rate to artificially increase the abortion rate in GB… And that is even though 1 in 5 confirmed pregnancies ends in spontaneous miscarriages, not chemical or surgical abortion. They fiddle the numbers to cause mayhem…
Not playing fairly are they.
Abortion IS NOT healthcare. Voting No.
Same people. Same views. Same level of trolling on both sides.
Abortion debate comments on journal.ie – Copy/paste and rinse and repeat. Nothing to see here. I think I’ll pass.
Abortionist are murderers and should be treated as such. Abortion supporters are accessories to murder. If you dont want the blood of the innocent on your hands then vote NO.
In other words Mother Nature is as big an abortionist as any clinic.
If 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, the UK total pregnancies would be about 1.1 million. Abortions at 190,000 would be a little over 17%, or one in 6. Hardly a major difference from the claimed one in 5.
Irish live births 2016 were 64,000. Allowing for a 20% miscarriage rate would put the total Irish pregnancies at about 80,000. 17% of 80,000 is 13,000 Irish abortion per year if we reach the same rate as the UK. 2016 legal abortions in Ireland numbered 25. The number of Irish women having abortions in the UK in 2016 was 3,265.
I don’t know yet how or if I’ll vote, but I reckon the pro-life poster has a good point.
Unproven?
How many of the 1 in 5 are Irish??
have your say