More drink !!!

I hear that Agencies who supply doctors to our Health system are making 21 million a year ; how many extra doctors would that make available ?
And how many extra guards could we hire from the 50,000 a week the private speed trap company make out of our taxes ?
I think I am going to develop an interest in vests ; big profit in vests !

I really shouldnt be here.

The leaving cert is sexist.
We can assume that males and females are equally competent throughout their adults lives.
Leaving cert results should be normalised each year to stop grade inflation. They should also be normalised for gender . Whilst females outperform males at the leaving cert this is due to the differences in the sexes at a young age. This effect is not evident as they both fully mature but unfortunately for boys they pay the price later in life due to the impact it has on course choices.

Research it Thomas and you’ll find boys do less well with continuous assessment. When there is just one exam at the end of the year rather than numerous exams, the boys outperform the girls. When multiple exams throughout the years, the boys do better. Most alarmingly the new system Quinn is hellbent on introducing is going to favour girls even more. This continuous assessment model has been introduced all over the world over the last few decades. It puts boys at a big disadvantage. http://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/aug/24/gcse-results-exams-boys
That’s not exactly the link I had in my – but it’ll set you off on the right path if you want to look into it.

Also, I came across research years back showing boys did 15% less well when they had female teachers. Can’t put my finger on it at the mo. But we need more men teaching.

edit – “When multiple exams throughout the years, the boys do better”

when multiple exams the *girls* do better

Why assume equal competance ? Why should they magically be the same and what evidence do you have that the Leaving is sexist? If you are going to normalise by sex, why stop there? For example there is robust evidence that tall people are smarter: should we normalise by height ? As far as I know it wasn’t always the case that girls outperformed boys in school so a simple biological model doesn’t work.

I assume equal competence because I don’t believe females are superior to males intellectually. I believe we are equal? Do you not?

Girls might outperform boys for a variety of social reasons. Female participation in sport is very low at 16-18 in comparison to boys. Male teachers being in short supply is another reason.

There are a lot more reasons – and you are right when you mention biological differences too Thomas.

I’ve tried to post other reason Thomas – cultural ones in particular – but they haven’t surfaced. They appear when I submit them under other articles – but never under Amy Croffey’s articles for some unknown deeply mysterious suspicious reason.

Limit places and very high demand create very high points. Women score higher points than men on average therefore more women accepted into courses. You think this is fair?

Women (girls, surely?) aren’t given an equal opportunity in schools, they’re given greater opportunities by a system that’s biased in their favour. The leaving cert (amongst other things) bears this out

You think the fact that women were excluded from the education system and the workplace for at least the past 200 yrs fair? If boys want a med place they have the brains enough to know they have to work hard to get the points. Wasnt the person who scored nine A1s this year male??? I agree that the ed system needs to be more inclusive but that works across the board, not just in genders. There are plenty of kids who are left behind because of poverty or disability. That needs to change.

Niamh,

Will all due respect, we’re not living in the past 200 years. That sort of thinking just leads to arguments for the sake of arguments. The system discriminates against male cognitive developmental research and needs to be addressed. All your other points do stand.

against findings from male cognitive development research.

Wit respect niall we are talking about discrimination, I was pointing out that women have only recently gained equallity in education which is why there are more women doctors, that is not an argument for the sake of argument. Regarding ed system being biased as I said I agree but if you want to be a doctor then you would want to be fairly determined to work hard to get there.

@Sandra , couldn’t agree more. That attitude has persisted in nursing ever since Florence Nightingale used nursing as a political tool to hit back at men because she could not get a seat at the rich mans table. I have lost count the amount of times I have heard,men don’t like getting their hands dirty.

200 years ago! no offense but that’s drivel and no excuse for keeping a clearly biased and outdated system in place. Also on another point I want to be able to vote for the best person to represent me in government not the best female candidate because a party feels they should have x amount of females in government.

Spot on Sandra

Nobody mentioned 200 yrs ago. I won’t insult ur intelligence by explaining it to you but maybe try reading my comment again.

Trying to justify a present clear inequality due to those of the past does not wash. I’m all for actual equality, utterly against positive discrimination or the more liberal term of “affirmative action”..it should be the best “person” with a fair an unbiased selection method.

What about more women on the building sites, or oil refineries or in the mining industry?

But it’s only inequality when it applies to men…when women have experienced inequality for centuries, that doesn’t count…amirite? Ok so I’ll explain it to you….I haven’t justified inequality, the original point was in reference to how feminists wont be happy as they (we) want the profession to be all female…that is ‘drivel’. I pointed out why there was a lack of older women doctors as women have been excluded from education and the workplace for centuries….now women have access to education there are more women doctors. There are plenty of male doctors too. ..I swear…I’ve seen them and plenty of male consultants too. In fact men dominate the profession in general….sugeons ect.

Of course it doesn’t count, we men today were not alive 200 years ago
Nor was the modern gender roles

If history was misogynistic towards women
It was also misandric towards men

CJ, the idea behind gender quotas is to level the playing field. If everyone got what they deserved based on merit alone that would be great but its simply not the case. Yes things are better now than in the past but laws are one thing and a culture takes a long time to change. Its simply more difficult for women to be put forward for candidature in the first place. There are a few reasons for this, politics can be seen as a ‘boy’s club’ which can be off putting, our own Dail is 85% male and mainly traditional, conservative and Catholic, generally not conducive to female equality. Many more women than men take on the burden of childcare, difficult to campaign and look after kids at the same time. Women generally earn less than men, even for the same work, women in Ireland earn about 83% of what men earn, you need money to be a candidate. This along with traditional attitudes can put more obstacles in front of women when trying to enter politics. As I said if it were a level playing field in the first place then quotas would not be needed but this is not a meritocracy.
Why do you think women are so absent from politics if not for these reasons? Just not bright enough? Not able enough?

Not misandric…..patriarchal. A system dominated by men which defined gender roles to the detriment of both sexes but disproportionately to women. Where women and children were property and were to be owned and controlled by men. Thankfully this is changing but as I said only over the past forty years in Ireland and that is largely due to women’s access to education.

How did you figure that one out? Did women dominate every aspect of society in the past? Were men the property of their wives? Were men denied education? Were men denied the right to work outside the home?

There are women working in all those areas but again they are male dominated and the culture is off putting to most women, considering it’s quite easy to be sexually harassed just walking down the street I can’t imagine what it would be like to be the only woman on an oil rig stuck out in the north sea!
You often see women on building sites but in fairness, they’re usually one of the engineers.

God help you Niamh. What a load of crap you are talking.

Equality means equal opportunities, not equal numbers

Main question you have to ask is, does she want the job?

Patriarchy=the UFO of feminist theory

So Sandra, you don’t seem to like feminists very much. Ok, then in line with your beliefs you should hand back your right to vote, your right to inherit, your right to own property in your own name, the right to have a mortgage in your own name, the right to have your own bank account if you are married, the right to keep your job after you are married, the right to keep your job when you become pregnant, the right to access contraception, the right to be considered a full person and not just the property of your husband or father and countless other rights that you would not have if feminists in the past both female and male had not fought for you to have those rights.
Seems a little ungrateful.

By the way, there are plenty of male nurses, have been for years, the head of the Irish Nurses organisation is male. Female doctors have been around since the 19th century ( unofficial ones even earlier) Since far more women have access to education now and all those pesky rights, its pretty obvious that there will be more female doctors now than 40 years ago, besides as we are constantly told, women gravitate towards caring professions, is not medicine one of the caring professions?

Hi luke…ur eloquence betrays you. Explain?

@ Kelly, to quote a feminist icon, who hated feminism oh the irony, Margaret Thatcher, feminism is nothing but pure poison. Lol

Who told you Margaret Thatcher is a feminist icon? I would not consider her one at all, she was simply a conservative woman who did well by being accepted by men because of her conservatism, a little like our Lucinda. Don’t know who told you that one, she is certainly no icon of mine especially since I have Northern English working class roots.
‘feminism is pure poison’ really? Social, economic and political equality for women equal to that of men is pure poison? Wow, I really pity any daughter or potential daughter of yours.
It’s amazing how some men are so threatened by women sharing a little bit of their power, luckily my father and my husband are far too secure in their masculinity to feel threatened by a woman who is their equal.

Really Niamh? Surely you don’t really believe that because women were down trodden in the past that men today should pay the price in education. Actually having to listen to you is punishment enough.

Women were not excluded from education for the last 200 years Niamh. They weren’t excluded from the workplace either. I don’t know where you’re getting that from. Women have always worked. In the 20th century the second world war was responsible for women entering the workforce en masse throughout much of the world at war. {My own grandmother was an aircraft mechanic for the RAF in WW2}

@Kelly

“Its simply more difficult for women to be put forward for candidature in the first place. There are a few reasons for this, politics can be seen as a ‘boy’s club’ which can be off putting, our own Dail is 85% male and mainly traditional, conservative and Catholic, generally not conducive to female equality”

Nonsense. Anyone male or female in this country can run for election at any time as an independent. Totally equal. No barrier for women. The fact is women are not as interested in running than men. And the quota in politics is an affront to democracy.

“Many more women than men take on the burden of childcare, difficult to campaign and look after kids at the same time” As a stay at home father to an 18 month old with many 30 something female friends I can tell you women want to stay at home more than men. Nearly all of the women I know mid 30′s with kids do not want to be out working, they want to be home raising their children but because of feminism feel guilty day in day out. Women are having an identity crisis – men have had theirs.

“Women generally earn less than men, even for the same work, women in Ireland earn about 83% of what men earn, you need money to be a candidate”

Women in the 25-44 age bracket are now outearning men by 17% – ERSI report.
Ireland is also the 4th best country for women to live in the world. They earn 13% less than men when they have children because they – wait for it Kelly – choose to work less hours.
Level playing field my arse. Women are more than equal.

Time to wake up and smell the roses Kelly.

Really Luke? Is that wt you think I said?? That men should be discriminated against because women were discriminated against? Will I try this again just for you…I said that women had been excluded from education but in the past forty years women have had more access to education and that explains why there are less older female doctors…now did you get that? I never once justified discrimination against boys or men. Now feel free not to read my comments if they bother you.
Naill that is great that ur Gran had that opportunity but that was in the UK not here, I wonder what did she do after the war or once she married? My mother in law had to leave the civil service when she got married and that was the sixties. My own mother had to leave school at the age of twelve to work while her brother continued his education. The reason for this was that my mother as a woman was not worth educating as she would get married.

Margaret Thatcher hated feminism and they hated her. Why? Because she didn’t need them. She got to the top despite feminism, not because of it. When she got to the top she looked down her nose at feminists.

Well we now have the largest reverse gender pay gap in the world Kelly.

” Social, economic and political equality for women equal to that of men is pure poison?”

OK Kitty, it’s clear from that statement you’re either wildly misinformed, stuck in the 70′s, or in denial.

“There are women working in all those areas but again they are male dominated and the culture is off putting to most women, considering it’s quite easy to be sexually harassed just walking down the street I can’t imagine what it would be like to be the only woman on an oil rig stuck out in the north sea!”

Jesus Christ. You’re just going to insist on stepping on rakes here aren’t you?

“What about more women on the building sites, or oil refineries or in the mining industry?”

That’s not going to happen Doey. Feminists {most of them} are only concerned with power and what they perceive to be happening over their heads. Feminism is remit of white educated middle class women only in Ireland. They couldn’t give 2 sh*ts about what’s happening below them.

Maggie Thatcher had no time for feminism, cause that ideology is built around having the door opened for her, Maggie wanted it, Maggie took it
Though I disagreed with many things she did, no denying she was a born leader

I’m a bit confused – you just advocated for equal opportunities, not equal results. Isn’t the leaving cert as equal opportunities as it gets – everyone takes the same test.

So it seems you do want equal results sometimes.

Well Niamh, 200 years ago Catholics were discriminated against. So should be disadvantage Protestant children to make up for it? Perhaps we could enslave some white people too

Chuck…as I said ‘for the past 200 yrs at least’….NOT 200yrs ago….please keep up.

One of the primary reasons for the introduction on the Hpat was the concern for the numbers of young doctors specialising in different Disciplines.

Female doctors upon general graduation were more interested in GP and paediatrics. If the trends continued an over supply was developing in these disciplines while severe shortages were likely in other areas.

Margaret, I really think you should have an old google about what has been invented and innovated by women despite the discrimination and lack of access to opportunities and education in the past, you will find rather a lot of clever, creative and enterprising women. I find it really strange when people downgrade their own gender as a whole.

“I find it really strange when people downgrade their own gender as a whole”

But that’s what you’ve been doing all over these boards tonight – but you just don’t realize it.

I thought long hours was a rite of passage in every country for doctors fresh out of medical school.

Ah stop talking self serving rubbish! If you went through the CAO and med is your only degree then the taxpayer paid dearly for your education. A medical degree anywhere else costs a hell of a lot more then 2500.00 euros a year. The full economic cost of your degree us about 100 times that. Don’t you think you owe the Irish taxpayer more that a bye bye, I’m leaving for American where the cost of your degree would be about a quarter of a mill. Minimum. And no ody gets that’s for free. They get loans.

Long hours?
In Australia, a doctor can earn the equivalent of 150,000€, work a 39 hour week, and get proper training, and have the costs of such training net by the employer.
In Ireland, a doctor can earn usually a maximum of 125,000 (including overtime), work an 80 hour week, get little to no training, and have to pay for such training (sometimes twice).
Guess where the doctors are going Margaret?
I’m presuming you stand at the gates in Dublin Airport taking cheques off all the accountants and teachers and scientists who’ve also trained under the free fees? Yes?
Also, FYI, doctors don’t “cost” anything to train – what they do “cost”, returns are usually repaid within 1 year of working – but don’t let a good story get in the way if the truth.

Exactly, full cost fees for all students. Or else some sort of chain for doctors until they pay off the cost of training them.
Other option would be to make them work 100+ hours a week but only pay them for about 50. Wait a minute……

Exactly! So why all the bellyaching.

Margaret do you feel the same about all the nurses teachers gardai engineers who got their degrees here too courtesy of the taxpayer ? Or is this just more doctor bashing ?

Personally I couldn’t care less about the gender, I don’t see why these numbers are so overwhelmingly important or even need to pointed out at all

Met many fine female doctors
Met many fine male nurses for that matter
If someone can heal me when needed, I’m happy

Not too many men are happy about lopping their cocks out in front of female doctors nor are they happy to have a prostate exam done by female doctors Doey. {Though they seem happy enough to do it at eminem gigs it seem} This is why gender balance is important in medicine. Not too many women are all too happy with going to a male doctor for a smear test etc either. It’s much more important that the end user – the public – are happy to go to their Doctors and feel as comfortable as possible.

Resultantly balance is a must.

Margaret get your facts right before you spout…everyone going to university no matter what course they take pays the same registration fee, be that medicine or arts or law or whatever! Anyone doing a postgrad course in medicine does not get ANY funding from anyone but themselves, be that a personal loan or money they may have saved/worked for, so the taxpayer does not sub medicine any more than any other undergrad degree!!!

I understand what you mean Nialler, been in hospital a few times, had my man-meat in the hands of plenty (God I’m such a hoo-er) ;)
I think it society’s view of it really, doctors and nurses see it as just a job
And they’ve seen it all by 5 years time on the frontline

What I meant about not caring about the number side is
They articles point seems irrelevant at this point in time but I do agree with you on education we have to sort that out immediately
If ever In favour of EITHER men or women in the teaching of medicine
we all lose out

There has been a worrying series of articles in the journal recently from a young female junior doctor claiming that many of the outsourced doctors can’t do the most basic of tasks and examinations. If true, and her articles seem well written, we’ve got big problems ahead of us.

I wouldn’t know man, only joined the “fellowship of the Journal” just recently
But yeah we outsource everything were screwed

Still not really like militant feminism ever made sense before :D

Providing the care a man gave to her ;)

@Sorca, Ironic how the old suffragette movement fought for equality for all women , regardless of their position within society. They also advocated men have equal rights within the home .yet the modern day feminist is totally against men having any sort of equality within the home.

Oh no he didn’t !! ;)

‘ the modern day feminist is totally against men having any sort of equality within the home.’ says Seamus.

Lol, yeah, I hate it when my husband wants equality within the home! Sure I wouldn’t want him interfering with my kitchen time.

By the way ‘suffragette’ came from the suffragist movement which was simply about gaining the right to vote.

@Sorca, that explanation doesn’t work. Women are the majority in the 35-44 age group.

@kelly
Say that to the divorce courts

@ Kelly, sorry to burst your bubble, suffragette movement was not just about the right to vote. Society is moving away from the Patrichal era where men controlled positions of power. And rightly so, but in certain areas of the medical profession gender bias is alive and kicking. Unfortunately, women are equally as bad as men when it comes to power. Power is the key word here not EQUALITY, and that is what we should be striving for equality.

Don’t forget Seamus that one of the greatest sources of power is informal power. Men may have held most of the positions of formal power, but women held and still hold the vast majority of informal power.

Informal power being control over the home and family. This is in fact the real power that exists in all our lives and has more an impact on our lives than any other form of formal {how may td’s in the dail etc} power.

Maybe us wimmins would like to have a bit more influence in the public sphere, teh menz are very welcome to more influence in the private sphere, I doubt somehow that most would take it.

Where were women holding the informal reigns of power in the past when they were restricted to breeding and the kitchen sink, couldn’t get access to education and were considered the property of their husbands? Of course there will have been exceptions but then again there have been a lot of exceptional women. We would like to be able to be mediocre for a bit though and not always have to be exceptional to succeed.

Doey- The laws in the divorce courts were largely devised in the past by a male dominated court system which decided that women were the natural carers of children. I believe that both parents should have joint custody unless there is abuse involved. That the courts award custody to women more often is down to patriarchal ideas that children are better off with their mothers as they make better carers for children than men which is nonsense, patriarchy is bad for men too and this is a prime example. My husband is qualified in Early Childhood Care and Education but can’t get a job largely because he is male and not fully trusted around children. I don’t believe people should be discriminated against because of their gender full stop.

Actually Kelly it’s a throwback to Victorian laws and the 1861 act. They laws we have that are in themselves anti fathers derive from those.

@seamus each to their own but it is a fact that most mothers are the main caregivers . I’m all for a man staying at home to look after the children but not all men are comfortable with taking over what is looked in in society as being “women’s work ” . It’s gender role bias really .

Maybe it’s gender role bias Sorca. Maybe it’s biological. I don’t think it’s that simple.

But, there is no disputing your point that more women stay at home than men. Yet, the men that do stay at home often report gender bias and discrimination themselves.

It is a problem because most female doctors work in certain specialties, for example GP. Most male GP’s (who worked 12hr clinics 5days a week) are about to retire and be replaced by mostly female GP’s (who don’t tend to work 12hr clinics 5days a week). Also, most doctors take longer than the statutory period of maternity leave.

And you have proof that most doctors take longer than 6mths maternity leave?

Anecdotal proof, yes.
Which is more than most TJ readers usually have.

May I suggest you read “lean in” by Sheryl Sandberg to educate yourself more with regards to women in the work place. The solution is to make work and life balance more conducive to working women who want to have families not discriminate against them. Either that or make men share maternity leave so they are prejudiced against as much as women.

Just as a point of observation,

Is every comment that relates to gender gonna resort to asking for some sort of proof / article / journal? This is a new and interesting trend I see developing on this site.

Aisloy,

While I agree in principal, most industry will try to avoid this paradigm shift if they feel it will compromise their profits. Businesses are there to make money, not bend to the life choices of their employees.

Personally, I believe a shared maternity / paternity system would be a better solution with this regard.

Anecdotal proof is no proof unfortunately. Especially when are dealing with a bunch of angry feminists.
The genders complaining about each other is about as useless as complaining about the fact that good looking guys get all the girls.

Maybe if their husbands chipped in a bit and didn’t leave the bulk of childcare and household duties to women then female doctors wouldn’t have to reduce their hours so much when they have children.

Wrong again Kelly. Women in Ireland CHOOSE to work less hours.

Wrong again Kelly. Women in Ireland CHOOSE to work less hours. Men work far more and far longer hours. ERSI.

Actually, Niall, it’s a bit silly to describe it as a “choice.” Men tend to work in fields that are less flexible than women. So my partner would not be able to get paternity leave or flexible working from an employer, which means I’d be forced to be the parent picking up the slack. That’s not a freely made choice.

The answer is for traditional male fields to be more flexible as well so fathers can do the pick up or stay home with sniffly kids – which would also benefit them in the divorce court (as a parent wanting equal custody should have done half of the child raising.)

Perhaps that’d be something those who claim to care men could join us feminists in?

haha Chuck. I’ve spotted some of your post around the place too. Like Ryan, very perceptive.