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LAST UPDATE | 26 Mar
FOR A MEMBER of the Dáil to be sanctioned for breaching the Oireachtas of code of conduct, another TD would first have to make a formal complaint, a spokesperson for the Oireachtas has said.
It is understood that no TD has been sanctioned in at least the last two decades for breaking the values outlined in the Oireachtas code of conduct, with TDs opting instead to withdraw remarks or apologise for particular actions.
Independent TD for Tipperary North Michael Lowry is in the spotlight for making a two-fingered gesture towards People Before Profit’s Paul Murphy, who was using his phone to film inside the Dáil yesterday.
Elected representatives are subject to a code of conduct that details how they present themselves in and deliver their contributions to the Dáil.
The document gives guidance to TDs on things such as offensive language and dress code.
Unlike standing orders, which are formal rules around the operation of the Dáil’s business, the code acts as a basic and common “set of values” that TDs are expected to uphold and respect while inside the chamber.
It gives the Ceann Comhairle responsibility for upholding order in the House and the right to consult parliamentary officials for guidance at times. It also stops TDs from crossing over the Dáil floor or across the chair when another member is speaking.
The tenth rule states that interference from mobile phones is a “discourtesy” to other members and distracts from the Dáil’s business. It rules that any phone brought into the chamber must be switched off or silent.
The twelfth rule makes references to threatening and offensive language and also outlines that “personal attacks, insults, obscenities, and expletives” are not considered orderly.
During Leaders’ Questions today, a number of TDs remarked on the video taken by Paul Murphy in the Dáil and the “two fingers” that Lowry was seen holding up towards the camera.
The Taoiseach equally condemned both politician’s actions today.
“Anybody who uses two fingers in this House to another person is wrong and that person should apologise,” he said. “That would apply to Deputy Lowry.”
“Equally, the opposition should face up and acknowledge that any deputy waving cameras in the face of other deputies is wrong and was never a part and parcel of Leinster House.”
The use of mobile phones inside the chamber is against order but it is routinely not adhered to as ringtones can frequently be heard throughout daily proceedings.
In recent years, the use of camera phones by TDs in the Dáil has also become more accepted.
Murphy has stated that he will not apologise for using his phone in the Dáil, arguing that the public have a right to know what takes place inside the chamber.
Lowry, however, released a statement today, in which he said that his gesture “was not made with malicious intent”.
The independent politician did not apologise for the action and described it as “an errant gesture under provocation”.
He added: “Unfortunately, the gesture has been taken out of context. Unlike others, I have always respected the rules and values of the Dáil. My gesture was not intended to be offensive or to cause any offence, and I regret that it may have been seen in such a way.”
For any TD to be sanctioned for their actions inside the chamber, a member must file a complaint about the behavior which will then be considered by the relevant committee, a spokesperson for the Oireachtas told The Journal.
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At 12 years old I would think could follow the simple instruction of ‘put your hands in the air’ if he has done the opposite and drawn a weapon (regardless if it’s real or fake), it’s not likely to end well. In the circumstances America finds itself in regarding gun crime – I don’t envy the job that police officers have to do or the positions they find themselves in. My thoughts are with all involved.
True Kathryn – this is a sad result of the society and culture there, and I don’t think its right to blame either the cops or the kid.
Taser him
Glenoir, how exactly do you know that the police officers responding had tasers and were within range to use them?
Surely a bullet in the leg would suffice?
Skin flint, You could shoot someone in the leg and that person could still be in a position to shoot you back.
Bullet in the leg isn’t the show stopper it is in TV. You shoot someone holding a gun in the leg, they’re gonna riddle you with bullets before you’ve time to realise what a stupid move you made.
Did the child’s parents not warn them to not play with a replica gun and not to point it at cops in any circumstances because its liable to get you shot.
“One officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon from his waistband but had not pointed it at police.”
Andy, he was told to raise his hands and instead reached for a realistic replica of a handgun. From a police officer’s perspective they’re about to have a gun pulled on them and must react accordingly.
Suicide by cop springs to mind.
Removing the orange indicator cost him his life, (apart from grabbing the gun when told to raise his hands)
But what if someone with a REAL gun put an orange safety indicator on the end, – would the cops refrain from shooting….?? – if so, wouldn’t that place them in mortal danger…??
He was a kid playing in a playground, dont think he planned suicide by cop ffs
A twelve year old.
He was in Cleveland, not as if he grew up in the countryside.
What choice did the policeman have
I grew up in San Francisco, played with my pals on the street with toy guns long (decades) before the “orange tip” laws were passed.
Neither myself nor my friends were ever shot by police.
Police never drew their guns. I knew two cops who retired after 20+ years and never drew their guns once. Now it’s part of their training to draw their guns at the slightest suspicion of anything. So naturally, this kind of shite happens.
Typical over reaction leaving a child dead – shoot first ask questions later
How an over reaction? The kid was asked to put his hands in the air, he reached fr his waist line, what do you expect the police officers to do, wait for him to shoot first. Yes sadly a child has lost his life, but as the orange marker was removed how are the police supposed to know if they are dealing with a real or fake firearm
He was 12 ffs shoot him in the leg if you think he is dangerous dont kill him
From sydney morning herald
According to early reports the two officers who responded – the rookie and a veteran – were not told that the caller had twice said he believed the gun to be a fake.
In the last minutes before he was shot Tamir could not have known that he was now in grave danger. As though by magic a stranger had reached out and transformed him.
He was no longer a boy with toy in a park but a black male with a gun.
In practice that would be the best thing, but no matter how well trained, a police officer had to make a split second decision. You see someone reaching for a gun, I am guessing they had to react in micro seconds
As the article said, the orange marker that all US airsoft guns have was removed. Have you seen these airsoft guns, so are as realistic as real guns and it is impossible to tell.
Sadly the race card will always be played.
If he had reached for it and it was in his waistband or whatever how would the orange marker have helped it doesnt look like he pulled the gun before he was shot – could have reached for it to show it wasnt real and bang
I am only going by what the article says that the yellow mark was removed. Suppose the police officer waited, and the kid had a real gun and fired, killing a police officer or worse another kid playing in the playground, what would we be saying, blame the police officer. it is a hard situation to put any person in
Having read other articles, the kid had pulled the gun which was visible to the officers and they could see no orange marker. And the person reporting it said it had been fired twice, but did think it was fake, this later fact was not given to the officers at the scene
Were looking at a situation where guns and gun crime is so rampant that police are jumpy and nervous being called out to any situation. Another factor is how in the current climate did some parent allow a kid leave the house with a replica gun?!??!
Tech Guy. Dodge you see the story in the news yesterday about the two cop shot when called to a house fire. It was an ambush specific set to kill police officers and firefighters.
You said “why didn’t they shoot him in the leg. Just they had and the gun turned out to be real and he opened fire in return”.
Then we have the case where the 14 year old shot his 5 friends in the school canteen. He was a child too.
When someone reaches for what may appear to be a real firearm after be ordered to put their hands up the Officers are trained to react instantly. Their own lives or the lives of others may depend on it.
The real question that needs to be asked is not whether the cops should have shot this kid, but why society allows an accurate replica of a lethal weapon to be sold as a ‘toy’.
Avina. I have seen both Airsoft and real and to look at them there is very very little difference between the two. That is why you cannot get them in Ireland. So I fully understand those Officers reaction.
“Shoot him in the legs if you think he’s dangerous”
Because hitting someone with non lethal force while rendering them incapable of posing any harm is JUST that easy. Techguy everybody!
Oh please they aren’t in a bloody war zone. 12 year old needs talking to even if he has a gun not shooting at. Micro seconds…pfff
Mick Jordan airsoft is sold in Ireland,
I have 2 airsoft guns bought from a shop on a well know main street in Dublin city centre,
They look very realistic, and all I was told when purchasing them was when traveling with them make sure there in the boot of the car.
@Mick Airsoft guns are legal in Ireland, and in fact aren’t required to have an orange tip like the UK or US.
@Richard
“Micro-seconds”
Precisely the point.
“He was 12 ffs shoot him in the leg if you think he is dangerous dont kill him”
This isn’t a movie, this is real life. In real life it isn’t as simple as aiming at a leg and shooting. Police train to hit the largest portion of the body which is the torso to maximise the chances of hitting the target and minimising the risk of stray bullets or penetrations from hitting innocent bystanders.
A leg on a possibly moving target is an incredibly difficult target to hit in the best of circumstances.
You can buy airsoft replicas in Ireland.
Mick you can get air soft in Ireland
I javelin never seen them for sale here.
I’ve a few which I bought locally in a shop.
So the trained police officers are meant to go on the word of a witness that they “believed” the gun was fake. Not a chance would they listen to that.
That fact was never relayed to the officers at the scene. And even if it was, believing and knowing are 2 different things.
sory to say mick but these guns are available all over ireland , go to any car boot sale , and ‘ outdoor sports’ shop and you will see dozens of them ,alongside hunting bows, crossbows and hunting knives, some of which would make rambo’s knife look like a pencil sharpener !. as a former licensed gum owner both here and in the uk , i have seen,handled and fired many different types of weapon, from shotguns to pellet guns, and i would find it very difficult to distinguish one of these so called replicas, from the real thing at close range, let alone from 20 meters in a situation that could threaten my life . these gun’s or replicas are NOT TOYS and should not be allowed to be sold as such, as for the ‘yellow sticker ‘ what good is that if it can be so easily removed? the only thing that surprises me in this story is that this has not happened much sooner .
I thought that all replicas and decommisioned firearms still come under firearms legislation.
Replicas can still land you in world of bother but if they are under 1 Jule they are not covered by current legitlation.
However decommissioned are and still must be licensed. See you can render a gun inactive by taking out a firing pin but can always be reactivated. If you take out pin or bolt the person in the post office ain’t going to notice.
As for this case 12 yr old over there can look almost 18. He reached for gun instead of putting hands up. Tragic but justified. Serious questions must be asked of his parents. Either giving him that or not getting him help for mental issues. If you reach for a gum when one is pointed at you at his age when you know you will die that’s a mental illness and noway people could not have noticed he was a little off
I just saw. The law was amended in 2006. I knew it was illegal before. Because a cousin of mine tried to bring one in and was refused. But that was around 2000.
Lol awh yeah pull the race card. You make me sick! Loser. If it was a white child the same outcome would of happened. Don’t be talking utter rubbish!
Yeah the rules in relation to firearms change regularly. If I had a few bob spare I’d not bother with air soft. Just licence a 243 at a rifle range.
Mick. People are buying them for their kids in the costas.
I believe they are on sale in Ireland
Airsoft guns are completely legal in Ireland. I’m an avid player and to be honest if you seen what I have for games you would immediately think they were real. They are designed to look and feel as realistic as possible.
The UK and America require the Orange tip Ireland does not, just lower fps and the legal understanding that they may only be seen or used at registered airsoft sites around the country. see criminal justice act 2006
Also having read other articles they have stated that sometimes real guns are painted with an orange marker so people will think they are fake. Either way the police had no way of knowing and were left with no choice in my opinion.
Yeah totally agree mick Jordan. Sure u can buy in Ireland now too. Loads of shops in Limerick anyway
There’s plenty of them in Ireland. Airsoft.ie which are based in Dublin deliver anywhere in Ireland. Thought they were illegal myself until I came across it a few months ago.
Latest news releases here say the policeman was only 3 metres away. Does that make it different?
No.
A 12 year old innocent child with his life ripped from him, and yet we will still have people call for our police to be armed like the Americans. Guns never lead to good things.
Do we?
Im pretty sure most people here are very happy the Guards are not armed.
I think they quite fancy the idea of being armed though.
Why?
You can see how bad things really are by the amount of thumbs down
you received for your enlightened stance!!
I remember the NYC cop getting shot by a 15yr old kid in Central Park while asking him about the bicycle he was riding ! http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=1980s%20shooting%20of%20cop%20in%20central%20park&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CAwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSteven_McDonald&ei=cnFzVLy_Gu6asQS2qYDoDg&usg=AFQjCNHwK8JTBYhKIAGfb315qA2TPS85Zg
This tragedy is the culmination of two factors. One is the prolific use of firearms in violent and unprovoked altercations by gangs in American society. And two is the media fuelled linkage between young black males and crime that has made any black male a target at the slightest perceived threat. Both sides of the racial divide have contributed to what has happened here.
The big difference between a 12 year old and a 15 year old is about 2 foot in height. No excuse for it. Shot twice with bullets.
David. Does a gun distinguish between a 12 year old and a 15 year old? The 14 year old that shot his 5 friends in school. When he walked into that school that day nobody would have thought him capable of doing that.
The Jamie Bolger case the two killers were 8 and 9. Nobody would have thought they could have been killers too because of theory age.
I understand the cops had little choice.
I just wonder if the kid had been White would the comments be a little more sympathetic.
Glen. Race is not an issue here. A person with a gun in a public place pointing it at people is. For all we know the Officer that shot him was Black. And I suspect that it was otherwise Al Sharpton and Co. would be crawling all over this squealing about racist cops.
It’s not that mick I just find some of the comments cold. I don’t blame the cops I would of done the same myself.
Glen. What you deem as Cold is people looking at the facts as we know them with a logical eye rather that an emotional one.
My point is if you read the comments there is very little sympathy shown. There’s a fact if you’re looking for one.
Glen. No need to get sarky. As I said people are not commenting via their emotions. The Kid is dead and nothing is going to change that. Did the Officer act in the appropriate manner? I believe he did and so do you. Is it terrible a kid is dead, yes, but will effect any of us on here in our day to day lives, No.
The police chief has described the victim as a young man, he was not. He was a 12 year old child, a young boy ffs. Good ole murica, the land of hope and glory has turned into the land of legal child murder in playgrounds
Yeah Sam I noticed that on the news and my first reaction was the same as yours.
Unfortunately several gun killings have been carried out by children of 12 and younger. The gun doesn’t care about the age of the finger squeezing the trigger.
This comes on the heels of another police shooting in NY where a rookie shot and killed an unarmed man in a stairwell for no apparent reason.
Is there a shoot first ask questions later policy? Is it lack of training? Let this be a lesson to those who want the gardai armed.
This has more to do with training and the climate of fear in the American psyche than whether police are armed or not. There are plenty of armed Gardaí as it is, they just aren’t as quick to shoot. Ireland and the UK are the only two countries in the EU with a mostly unarmed police force. You don’t hear of that many people being shot dead by police on france and Germany. It’s more to do with the training and attitude of the police than whether or not they are armed.
Dublin. In the US a Cop is more likely to get shot doing a simple traffic stop than is a Cop in say France dealing with an armed bank robbery. The Police Officers first duty is to protect himself and others.
Remember the capture of Dessie O Hare. The car was hit with over 100 rounds after it ran a check point.
@Dublin History – gun culture is far more rampant in the US than in Europe, and a cop (or a member of the public) is far more likely to be shot at.
I agree I was just responding to argument that this incident somehow shows why the Gardaí should not be armed.
How many police shooting happen each year up north? ? Or how many do we hear about in Germany or Holland which would more reflect the Irish /European policing model. No issue with it here. Long overdue
Takes safety marker off replica gun and points it at armed policemen.
Darwin Award shortlist at least.
Hard to say its the kid’s fault directly – he’s 12 and probably doesn’t know any better. It would be interesting to know how he acquired the gun though, and what advice/ground rules he got from the parents.
Nice try but … He never pointed it at the police
To much weight is being put on the fact the orange tip was removed making another strike against the kid that he was solely responsible for this tragedy. The boy had the toy gun in his waist belt at the time the officers arrived, he was non threatening and people weren’t running screaming from the area, unless from the site of cops with guns drawn.
Yes, on being ordered to put his hands up he apparently reached with one hand for the gun while facing down the barrels of US cops who have bad reputation for having itchy fingers. Not the smartest move, shock and fear certainly plays a large part in these situations, he clearly must have gotten it out from his waist as the reports states but he never raised it or aimed at the officers so officers would never have seen an orange tip regardless.
From his perspective he not wilfully knowing he was doing any wrong at the time likely tried convey that what he had in his hand was a toy. US cops don’t listen, they bark orders in a manner that indicates such commands were drilled into them during training and repeat them without pause until people comply. Its a terrifying situation to be in when they approach weapons draw and shouting at you. The kid was 12 and happily playing in the park with friends when “the shit” got suddenly real within seconds.
Blaming the kid for not obeying cops orders and for not knowing better is a social problem nearly unique to the US, there are classes being taught currently specific on how to respond when approached by police. Yes Sir : No Sir, Show ID, answer no other questions, don’t jerk or make sudden movements, etc etc. It’s a sad indictment of a society when people must be prepped and trained when approached by cops as they can and will use anything you say against you and most of the time lie and threaten you to comply to questions or demands they have no right or legality to request unless stating they are threatening you as a suspect in a crime. US judicial system and police force is seriously broken and is only getting worse daily where citizens are having their rights stripped or denied and to assert them you are bullied, threatening and abused. Land of the free, my ass.
I agree with you completely Derek, and am stunned by the number of people who are condemning a 12 year old for not reacting with adult rationality. Kids these age are KNOWN for poor judgement, for not following directions, for being impulsive.
And the the people who blame the parents fro not teaching him not to play with guns, etc. – REALLY? Are you all so numbskulled that you REALLY think that a 12 year old boy always remembers what his parents say, and and always does exactly what they say? REALLY?
12 year olds are NOT adults. They do not think, reason, or react the way adults do. THAT is why they have caretakers to look after them. If they had the same mental facilities adults do… they wouldn’t need parents and teachers. Seriously.
Of course the parents have questions to answer Mimi. This wasn’t just a plastic toy cap gun – it was a realistic replica firearm which fires pellets more than capable of blinding someone, a weapon which requires a licence in many countries.
The fact that his parents even allowed a 12 year old to have one or use it unsupervised is worrying, never mind starting to wave it around in a public place and pointing it at other kids.
Yes children of that age are known for poor judgement and acting impulsively, which is all the more reason for police to take the threat seriously when they believed the gun was real.
That said, after watching the video, the police certainly could have handled the situation very differently and if they had the child might still be alive.
Cops in America have now become a danger to society.
You’re Nine Times More Likely to be Killed by a Police Officer than a Terrorist.
33 cops killed by gunfire in 2013, the lowest number since 1887
Frank… and how about letting us know the statistics for “black on black” crime? If you are black how more likely are you to be shot by another black person rather than by a cop?
So Frank you think that 33 Dead Police Officers is ok?
How about statistics for white on white crime from you?
Btw Frank here are the actual stats.
http://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2013
How about stats for troll on ablitive crimes. Actually we tried that before but the printer started rocking from side to side, smoke bellowing out of it on till it finally gave this god awful screech and the lights went dim. Let’s learn from our mistakes.
I’d also say a number of those are suicide by cop.
33 cops killed by gunfire in 2013, the lowest number since 1887. LA Times.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/dec/30/nation/la-na-nn-police-deaths-20131230
Obama has turned America’s police force into a Gestapo.
One only has to Google the amount of family dogs that are shot by US Cops every year, civilians are the next step. This all happened before in Germany and is just history repeating itself.
Frank. Its 42 and that is from a site administered by Cops.
Frank, it’s funny when you mention the Gestapo with regards to president Obama. But when your singing the praises of hitler you will never bring up the Gestapo, the SS and all the other groups that he used to put fear into people.
Your a hypocrite.
Mick, let’s ignore glen and frank for a moment but they are welcome to read this- on Meet the Press yesterday former mayor Giuliani said this
The fact is, I find it very disappointing that you are not discussing the fact that 93 percent of blacks in America are killed by other blacks,” the former Republican mayor said. “We’re talking about the exception here [in Ferguson].”
Also, some people on here need to understand that police in America are responding to 911 calls in dangerous neighborhoods.
Absolutely appalled by many of the responses here. This was a 12 year old boy with a pellet gun. In no world is this right or even justifiable.@ Mick Jordan. If this had happened in Russia, I would be interesting to see your response. Not going to look at the comments to this article again as I feel physically sick at the number of people who feel that this 12 year old got what he deserved.
And how are the police officers supposed to know it is a pellet gun. Look at the evidence picture above. Would you be happy to say yes that is a pellet gun, because I would not. I agree that it is sad that a 12 year old has lost his life, but he was asked to put his hands in the air and instead pulled a weapon, would you be saying the same if he had in fact pulled a gun and shot someone
@Anne Marie, my thoughts exactly. Plenty of hypocrites here. It’s a 12 year old kid for God’s sake.
Anne Marie. Get off your high horse and put yourself in those Officers shoes. They were told that someone with a gun was threatening people at a school. They arrived saw the kid and ordered him to raise his hands. Instead he pulls a gun out of his waistband. Do you wait until he shoots you or someone else or do you react to what appears to you to be an imminent threat?
A 12 year old can pull a trigger just as easily as a 30 year old.
And nobody has said he “Got what he deserved”. What people are saying is that that Officers under the circumstances they were aware of acted to protect themselves and others.
@Anne Marie & Alan
Of course its a tragedy that this kid got killed, but I don’t see anybody saying he ‘got what he deserved’ – just that it was the predictable result of drawing an accurate replica firearm when asked to put his hands up.
How do you think the cops should have reacted to what they thought was a genuine threat to themselves and the public? As I said above, the gun doesn’t care about the age of the finger squeezing the trigger – it’ll discharge exactly the same whether its a 12 year old or a 32 year old holding it.
This is the real world though.
Avina Laaf But this is assuming that everyone is of normal mental ability and dose not account for those of impaired hearing or slow to respond. So if someone dose not hear the cops command dose he deserve to die in this manner?
It is not the first instance where someone was shot dead for being slow to respond, only two months ago a kid was shot dead in a supermarket for holding a replica gun that was actually sold in the same store.
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/breaking-video-finally-released-cops-shooting-man-toy-gun-wal-mart/
Frank, this child was shot because he saw police officers with weapons drawn and his reaction was to grab for a replica weapon at his waistline. That is an incredibly threatening movement and, had the gun been real, placed the police in immediate danger. They reacted accordingly with the information they had.
Anne Marie, the officer who shot the kid has been put on administrative leave. That officer is shook up about this. He knows he killed a kid and I’m sure he will be haunted by this.
Jason Culligan, Shot dead when a professionally trained cop should have know how to disable a suspected gun from a child either by using a non lethal weapon or aiming for a part of the body like legs or arms that would incapacitate the weapon without killing the child.. .
Frank, shooting arms/legs to disable a gunman belongs in the movies not in in real life, and attempting to tazer someone with a firearm is a non runner (just look at what happened to Raoul Moate when they attempted to taze him – imagine if his weapon had been pointing at someone else instead of himself).
This comment section has made me shudder. A 12 year old child with a toy gun is shot and there is no compassion for his life lost, a future not lived, a family in mourning. Shameful.
Frank, what do you see at a target practice range? What do you fire at? It’s the outline of a torso. I’ve never heard of a firing range where police officers practice trying to hit arms and legs.
You really are dumb.
Believe it or not, police officers over here are not allowed to shoot to injure. The firing of your gun is supposed to be a last resort and then it’s shoot to kill.
And how do you disable someone with a gun Frank? Do you try get all Ninja on them? Or maybe you do a Hollywood and shoot the gun out of their hand?
How would you have disabled them Frank?
I just cant see a rookie waiting while someone pulls a gun out on him to see if there is an orange marker or not
The US police shoot way too many innocent people. Probably one of the most corrupt, mental country yet they think they are most powerful.
He wasn’t, by any definition, an innocent person. He was carrying a weapon which could reasonably be assumed to be a genuine firearm and refused to listen to the commands of police officers who demanded that he keep his hands up and away from what the police reasonably thought was a genuine threat.
Plenty of police officers in the US have been killed because they did not take actual threats as seriously as they did this.
Jason Culligan .. “He wasn’t, by any definition, an innocent person”…
The same could be said about all those collateral damaqed kids that are assassinated US by military drones in Pakistan, Yemen and Afghanistan.
Frank, are you tired of the ablitive name?
Declan Noonan You gave out to people for hiding behind profile names.. You cannot win with you.
Frank, so your back to calling yourself frank? No more ablittive?
“He was carrying a weapon which could reasonably be assumed to be a genuine firearm”
He was carrying a toy that the police were twice told was “probably fake”.
It’s unreal there is an air-soft community in Ireland so you can get stuff like guns and assault rifles and so on, the poor lad was 12 and possibly didn’t react the proper way and the cops just shot him anyway, cops are way too trigger happy if your black in America.
Sorry they shot him because instead of putting his hands up as requested, he went to pull the gun out. The cops had a microsecond to make a decision. As the red marker (which is not on Irish airsoft guns) had been removed, how were the cops to say if it was real or not, even the person who called in was unsure. Any cop who sees a gun being drawn will have to assume it is real, sorry but would you be happy if they didn’t and someone else died as a result n inaction, they cannot win
What makes you think they wouldn’t have reacted the same if it was a white kid drawing what they believed was a lethal weapon??
What makes you think they wouldn’t have. Honestly I believe they would have acted the same. It was what they thought was a weapon and reacted accordingly. He pulled a gun, the red marker was removed to show it was a replica, and they acted. Do you not think they are asking themselves if they could have done it differently
Dat be rayciss, gnome sayin dog.
The fact of the matter is that US cops shoot first and ask question later, and it’s incredibly rare to ever see an American Police Officer sentenced for shooting a civilian, although hopefully I will be proved wrong later when the Ferguson grand jury decides whether or not to send the Police Officer who shot Michael Brown forward for a criminal trial. There is no doubt that American Police Officers face far greater dangers from guns than Police in this the world, but it is still very worrying to see a 12 year old boy been shot by Police, when he wasn’t even pointing the gun at them. At the end of the day this Police Officer has taken a life unnecessarily, and there has to be a severe penalty for that, be it losing his job as a Police Officer, or even jail.
He didn’t take a life unnecessarily. A child who was potentially armed attempted to draw a weapon when ordered to show his hands twice. The police attempted reason and were met with what they perceived as an act of aggression.
Would you be so understanding were it your child, fact of the matter is that he did not deserve to lose his life over ‘being potentially armed’.
Aging, there’s a relevant article linked above referring to a police officer who was gunned down in New York by a 15 year old. A gun doesn’t give a damn whether the user is 5 or 50. The police have to take every precaution necessary.
If the gun was real, which the kid made every attempt to make it seem as such, he could have done a lot of damage had the police not reacted the way they did.
The police can defend this all they want, but this is a twelve year old boy, a child. Trigger happy police over there. This is what happens when you give idiots guns.
No, this is what happens when idiots give their children replica firearms and don’t teach them how to behave around the law or how to use those toys responsibly. I had a replica of a firearm when I was a child but my parents had the foresight to not allow me outside with it.
The police in this situation were met with a child carrying what looked like a firearm and who made an attempt to draw said object from his waste when ordered to show his hands.
Thank God we have GSOC here. We need to keep guns off our streets and continue to lock up anybody who carries one.
Less chance of Abbeylara and Abbeyleix happening again.
What bearing do GSOC have on guns on our streets?!
None Lara, GSOC have a bearing on the Garda response to guns on our streets.
When innocent citizens are killed, GSOC investigate, therefore Gardaí are less likely to be as sloppy as their lesser-paid US colleagues. With fewer guns comes a perception that an armed Police force is not GENERALLY necessary. Remember the two examples… Abbeyleix and Abbeylara.
Abbeylara? Where the man so question discharged numerous shots at unarmed guards and his own sister? He just needed a hug. Why don’t you man up and offer hugs and kind words the next time there’s an armed siege. Let us know how it goes for you.
That’s a very narrow interpretation, Mr. Devil.
I see you’re not biting on the other example.
Rest in peace gone to soon this is very sad poor lad xxx 12 years old gone to soon xxx
Shit situation for all involved; arguments for & against are plausible, wouldn’t fancy raising a sprog in that neck of the woods with the people who are trying to protect you or hurt you knockin around the place.
The direct result of a country and society obsessed with guns and violence. If this incident happen to a 12 year old on London, Paris or Berlin he would not be shot dead. The threat of gun violence is ever present in the USA.
Charles. How can you say that for sure. If a 12 year old pulled a gun on Any armed Police Officer anywhere after being ordered to put their hands up the Officers reaction would be the same.
And as for others comments about shooting in the arms or legs. Real life is not Hollywood. And using a Tazer when someone is drawing what you believe to be a real gun on you would be (if the Officer survived) grounds for dismissal for reckless engagement of both himself, his partner and the public.
And a lot of people are jumping on the race card but as yet the race of threatening Officer is not known. It could be it was a black Officer that shot the kid.
A teen was shot here in the Netherlands while attempting to flee from the police. He was suspected of having a firearm and attempted to run when the police ordered him to stop and show his hands.
It is standard practice with any armed force to assume that a person who’s suspected of possessing a firearm indeed possesses one.
I can’t remember now the name of the case, but the same indecent involving a white guy who was actually waving and pointing the gun at police and people was not shot and the situation was peacefully resolved. Here before leaving the police cruiser, the officers asked was the suspect black or white anad approached the situation in a black neighbour hood weapons drawn. The kid never had a chance imo.
The policeman who shot the boy was only 3 metres away from him. Disgraceful.
Smiley. What country or Police Force trains is Officers to shoot to wound?
Mick, New Zealand and United Kingdom both shoot to injure if at all possible. Doing so allows justice to be served.
Smiley. Neither New Zealand nor the UK carry Firearms as standard. And neither Forces Firearms Officers are trained to wound, they are trained to aim for the centre mass. If the suspect survives which happens regularly it is not because they were trying to wound or disable them. Ask any armed Gardai are they trained to wound or aim for the center mass.
Mick. You are right. Neither force is armed regularly. I think that’s the difference. It’s only when a situation escalates that firearms are used.
In the current situation, given that the policeman was merely 3 metres away, wouldn’t a rugby tackle have sufficed? Possibly not. We’ll never know. Given the preponderance of gun crime on television, gaming and film it’s hardly surprising that boys act out the fantasy of guns.
Smiley it takes military seconds to pull a trigger.
Lets say just for the sake of argument the Officer did tackle the boy. But in this situation the gun is real, loaded and cocked. So the Officer jumps on the Boy and in fear and shock he fires off a round which strikes and kills another child, the Officer or his Partner. What then? How does the Officer explain to the parents of the innocent child “I got your child killed because I didn’t want to shoot the armed kid”.
Deserved to be shot
What’s new, American police are trigger happy brutals and everyone knows that who watches any online videos. Tasered people (often to their death) shooting harmless dogs, beating people during arrest etc. This is one of the many cases in usa that questions if police force was used appropriately or not. I’m glad I live here in Europe.
If the cops are gunna have guns and the streets are that dangerous why not try not shooting to kill? That’s what I don’t get unless that person is within milli seconds of blowing your head off why not shoot to disarm rather than shoot to kill??
You’ve obviously never shot a gun in your life, have you?
And you’ve never googled “Police shoot unarmed man” in your life, have you?
Have to say, other jurisdictions manage to shoot to disable/maim alleged offenders, unless exceptional circumstances. Seems that only in America (in terms if the Western World) is it deemed necessary to shoot to kill.
No, they don’t manage to shoot to disable as this is not a policy anywhere in the world. Arm and leg shots are by far the most difficult targets to hit and don’t even guarantee a disablement if hit.
The sheer carnage a shoot to disable policy could have on innocent bystanders is dizzying.
Not true. Many forces do actually target lower limbs as it can give enough time to disarm an assailant. Not that hard to hit actually.
Military training says shoot the larger target but police should be trained to handle things differently imo.
I find it very hard to side with the police in these kinds of incidents. The kid was 12. Chances are 1 shot into the air would scare the bejaysus out of the kid. If it didn’t then MAYBE you have cause to actually target the child.
Once you draw your gun you immediately raise the intensity of the situation. It’s easier said than done I know but surely a calm voice with guns holstered would result in a better outcome for all.
The kid was 12(!), had two cops pointing guns at him, could well have been scared shitless and maybe just made the stupid move of pulling the gun out to show it was a toy.
Either way it’s a tragic loss of a young life. RIP.
My thoughts exactly, except this happened in the US where cops are drilled in training to be afraid for their lives and react often disproportionally with rarely any consequences and they know that.
Cops, the DA and police unions protect them and cover for them, often lying.
Since no weapon was drawn or being used to endanger people on scene when police arrived they escalated the situation to the point of what happened, and for that I blame their training. If the boy was not a threat, approaching him calmly and saying “Son, you need to put that gun down now and back away from it” instead of rapidly approaching guns drawn. Three rules of firearms and the first is never aim the weapon at something you are not going to shoot. ie, never raise and point your weapon unless absolutely necessary and in this case it was not, but made deadly by officers not being informed or handling the situation responsibly.
I can understand why the police officer in question shot, but was there a need to shoot to kill? Would a shot in the leg or arm not have been sufficient?
TASERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Use a fecking taser next time!!!! and police in america wouldn’t kill as many innocent people, whether by accident or desire, if they thought they might face a prison sentence
Jason culligan, you are a stupid fool. My grandfather was a cop and wore out 3 sets of hand cuffs, delt with armed suspects during the civil rights violence here in alabama and disarmed many knife wielding perps and never shot his service revolver. Cops these days are scared sniveling pansies with guns with out the balls to handle their jobs correctly. If your a whuss, work at McDonald’s.
No excuses this was a kid..a KID!! These policemen were adults and trained professionals at that. .should they not have been able to disarm him without leaving him dead. Who knows what the child’s thinking was when they told him to raise his hands..now we will never know. I think they were wrong.. no doubt
Elaine. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. But it doesn’t change the situation that confronted those two Officers. They were responding to a 911 call of a person threatening others with a firearm. When they arrived they saw the boy with what looked to them to be a real firearm in his waistband. They ordered him twice to raise his hands. Instead reached for the gun pulling it from his waistband. The Officers deeming that that the situation had become critical and a danger to life was imminent they reacted as they were trained to do, to protect themselves and other members of the public.
He wasn’t 12 – he was 18!! Fix the title
Joseph, if you google “police shooting” you will see countless news reports saying he was 12. Where did you get your information?
Hi Joseph,
Tamir Rice was 12.
Paul
Let me just tell you something about America, where I spent 60 years.
In 1994, during the Clinton administration, the Department of Justice was charged by congress to collect and report statistics on the number of citizens killed by police. We’ll call it “police killings”. The FBI was given responsibility to collect the data and was to report to congress ANNUALLY on the number of people who were killed by US police, across the entire nation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States
As you can see by reading the article, nothing happened. There was no data collected despite the order of congress.
Now, you have to ask yourself “Why didn’t that happen?” Well, you don’t, but I had to ask myself.
Why would the US Government not want it’s people or elected representatives to know how many people were killed at the hands of police agencies?
Perhaps this will shed some light on the nature of the problem.
Speaking of Cleveland police:
http://www.businessinsider.com/cleveland-police-disciplined-in-deadly-chase-2013-8?IR=T
Ohio is an open carry state. It is legal for someone to carry a gun as long as it not concealed. You people are not getting to the root of the problem. It is our 2nd amended right to carry any weapon of our choosing. They had no business even drawing their guns without investigating the situation.
My nephew Mitchell Keith Campbell was murdered by the COPS for TARGET practicing shooting at cans with his 22 cal. Hunting rifle on his own rural property. Lauderdale County AL. Deputy Joe Hamilton responded to a 911 call of gunfire at a RURAL home. When they reached the home of the caller without sirens on or blue lights flashing “rolling dark” the herd 10 shots fired from a property about 1/8 mile away. Officer hamilton ant two other cops approached campbell’s home t crouched through a chest high weeded field. Officer hamilton circled behind mitch while the two other cops approached from the opposite direction. According to campbell’s wife, they were on the porch and she went inside and 3 to 5 seconds later she herd the three shots fired that killed mitch campbell. Officer hamilton shot him from behind in the back and walked up on the porch and put two more rounds in the dying man’s chest piont blank. She did not hear the police announce them self as they claim. Officer joe hamilton’s wife is the assistant district attorney in lauderdale county where he was found not guilty of any wrong doing and is back on the streets with a badge and a gun. His civil rights were violated through the Color of Law act. He was not doing anything illegal at the time he was murdered. The indictment of officer hamilton was held in a secret hearing led by officer hamilton’s wife’s boss the Lauderdale District attorney and was exonerated of any wrong doing. So yeah the cops can murder who they want. I’m surprised they didn’t strap my nephew across the hood of the police car and drive around town showing off their kill….murderers plain and simple”
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