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Clare Daly TD Laura Hutton/Photocall Ireland

Abortion bill debate: TDs criticise leak of Expert Group report

The bill was put forward by Clare Daly TD. Minister Shatter encouraged her to withdraw it, saying it does not address in detail a number of issues.

DEPUTY CLARE DALY’S proposed  bill for legislating for the X Case was debated before the Dáil tonight.

A number of TDs used the debate on the Medical Treatment (Termination of Pregnancy in Case of Risk to Life of Pregnant Woman) Bill to hit out at the leak of the Expert Group on abortion over the weekend.

Deputy Luke Ming Flanagan said that: “As someone who is relatively new to the Dáil, I am starting to wonder why are we the last to hear about these things. Why do employees of multinational media organisations get to see the report before we do?”

We should have got to see this report before anyone in the media got to see it. I don’t believe there was a leak – I believe it was deliberate. The moment it came out, we should all have been contacted.

Deputy Seamus Healy said he was “not surprised, but disappointed that the report could be read in newspapers. I believe it was leaked deliberately.” He described this as an “affront to members of this house” and that it “should have been published immediately after the minister got that report”.

Meanwhile, the Minister for Justice, Alan Shatter, asked Deputy Daly to withdraw the bill, saying that while it is well intended, it does not address in detail a number of issues and is defective. He said that it would provide a blanket immunity to medical practitioners from civil liability should they be negligent in treatement and this results in the death or incapacitation of the woman, which is a very serious matter.

He asked Deputy Daly to “seriously consider not dividing the house” and to consider withdrawing the bill. He added that whatever action the Government takes, Ireland will still have some of the strictest laws in Europe when it comes to abortion.

Minister of State Kathleen Lynch said that the fact Deputy Daly’s bill gathered 20 votes in April “really tells us there is a division among all groups in this house in relation to this particular issue”. She added that this government “will not be the seventh” not to legislate for the X Case. She said she would not be voting for the bill.

Fianna Fáil Deputy Billy Kelleher also did not back it, calling it divisive and saying his party was waiting for the Government to come back with its representations.

Sad and angry

ULA Deputy Daly herself said she was “sad and angry to be here again”, having previously put forward the bill in April, when it was voted down by Dáil members. She said that “we know in certainty that there isn’t any certainty coming from the government”. Mentioning the Savita Halappanavar case, she asked: “Are we waiting for another such case?”

She said that the bill is not perfect, but “it’s a start” and could be amended. “If we don’t make a start tonight it means the legal process will not start until at least another four or five months’ time,” she said. She added that the saddest part of moving this bill is it doesn’t even begin to deal with the majority of reasons that thousands of Irish women have to choose to have a termination.

Sinn Féin Health Spokesperson Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin said the Bill should be allowed to proceed to committee state where it can be amended as appropriate.

The bill will be voted on tomorrow evening.

Read: Expert group report on abortion set to be published today>

Read: Junior Minister wants free Dáil vote on any X Case legislation>

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18 Comments
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    Mute Early Cuyler
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    Dec 26th 2019, 10:13 PM

    The idea that THC is bad also takes away from our understanding and the medicinal potential.

    180
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    Mute Record Sunshine
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    Dec 26th 2019, 10:52 PM

    Heaven forbid that cannabis might leave the reefer madness era behind once and for all and be a mainstream product of benefit for millions of people. Keeping people drugged up on legal prescription drugs seems to be perfectly acceptable, though. A smoke definitely does one good after a hefty Christmas dinner, anyway. Celebrations, here I come .

    149
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    Mute Karl Charlie
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    Dec 26th 2019, 11:16 PM

    @Record Sunshine: legal prescription drugs make money for big pharma but the suggestion of taking money off them by using cbd is like askin ffg to pay their dail bar bill never gonna happen

    74
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    Mute Clare McAfee
    Favourite Clare McAfee
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    Dec 26th 2019, 11:43 PM

    @Karl Charlie: start taking to the Gov about tax income, more jobs, and votes, and they might listen a little less to pharma industry pressure..

    32
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    Mute Clare McAfee
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    Dec 26th 2019, 11:40 PM

    No research in this area? Someone had better tell the state of Florida quick. Licenses are applied for to the state, and granted on the basis of scientific research. Several of my friends in the US with chronic pain apply to the state they live in for a licence and a week later are down at the dispensary collecting a medical grade product. Give up the “no research” excuse, chronic pain patients are sick of hearing it.

    112
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    Mute Emer Caffrey
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    Dec 27th 2019, 10:15 AM

    @Clare McAfee: just ask the patients who’ve benefited from it when nothing else worked

    21
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    Mute Conall
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    Dec 28th 2019, 2:16 AM

    @Emer Caffrey: Individual reports are not a reliable way of determinining the efficacy of a medication. This can only be done through properly designed trials.

    2
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    Mute John Brendan Mullen
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    Dec 26th 2019, 11:19 PM

    Headline should read, if we sell CBD/THC the shareholders in the big pharmaceutical companies might receive lower dividends.

    106
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    Mute Mike Murphy
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    Dec 26th 2019, 11:23 PM

    @John Brendan Mullen: that’s the big problem…something you can grow at home can have health benefits that you wont be spending money on prescription drugs the big players dont like that

    72
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    Mute John Black
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    Dec 27th 2019, 3:12 PM

    @John Brendan Mullen: the people who hold most of the patents for Cannabis based medicinal products are the big pharmaceutical companies so please remove your tinfoil hat

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    Mute Vincent McDermott
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    Dec 28th 2019, 8:03 AM

    @John Black: Quiet the opposite, pharmaceutical companies have been looking at cannabinoids for years. With stricter regulators in the Pharma industry, safety and efficacy data must be proven. This is not the case with the natural health sector who can make claims for cures without proper research.

    1
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    Mute Mike Murphy
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    Dec 26th 2019, 11:09 PM

    The plant is given to us from the earth…has so many benefits.. why live in 1950s ireland and not legalise it…has so much revenue to be made from it..and on the medical side it helps alot of people

    67
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    Mute HearMeNow33
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    Dec 27th 2019, 12:20 PM

    @Mike Murphy: You had me on the first line of your comment…. Totally agree.

    2
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    Mute Pat Conners
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    Dec 26th 2019, 11:35 PM

    I live in the neatherlands.. as everyone knows smoking a joint is tolerated. Outside of the stigma of drug use it is well known in Holland that sufferers of cancer and MS will suffer less as a result of marijuana..THC is what gets you high..CBD is what apparently cures many ailments..this story seems to glorify pharmaceutical cures that are for sure 10fold more expensive than a plant.

    75
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    Mute Arragh Sure
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    Dec 26th 2019, 10:08 PM

    Rubbish. If they make cannibas available for pain as it is everywhere else and quit acting like there is no evidence of anything about cannibas they may show some brains as a government. Then again.

    111
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    Mute ihcalaM
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    Dec 26th 2019, 10:24 PM

    @Arragh Sure: Yeah but there’s a difference between cannabis being used for pain (legitimately) and the quacks promoting it as a cure for every disease under the Sun.

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    Mute Arragh Sure
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    Dec 26th 2019, 10:33 PM

    @ihcalaM: That is true. There is also an acute difference between people suffering and waiting on opiates which is the issue here. Not as acute as not giving a fiddlers and acquiring it anyway ^_^

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    Mute Audrey Muddiman
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    Dec 26th 2019, 10:46 PM

    Probably the only sensible response on. Social media I have seen thus far. Anyone saying there’s of research etc doesn’t consider the side effects. Do we seriously need another under research product on the market just because it might suit the vested interests to push it through

    8
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    Mute Fachtna Roe
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    Dec 26th 2019, 11:12 PM

    @Audrey Muddiman: It’s been researched for the last 5,000 years.

    53
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    Mute Brendan Greene
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    Dec 26th 2019, 11:25 PM

    @Fachtna Roe: no. It hasn’t. We are talking about peer reviewed research trials using controls and placebos. Commercial pressure is not a good environment for proper research.

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    Mute Arragh Sure
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    Dec 27th 2019, 4:14 AM

    @Audrey Muddiman: I am stunned (not) to see that the empirical evidence available for its good side effects in treating various ailments has thus far eluded you.

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    Mute Brian Conway
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    Dec 27th 2019, 7:40 AM

    @Audrey Muddiman: what do you think the yanks don’t do research?? There’s masses of research been done. Masses

    11
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    Mute Clare McAfee
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    Dec 27th 2019, 8:45 AM

    @Audrey Muddiman: tell that to my chronic pain friends in the US with their State-granted medical cannabis licenses, based on scientific research (their consultant sends research in with their application). The license isn’t granted without it. Of course there’s side effects, of course it won’t work for everyone, but like any other drug it’s about the RIGHT to access. Let’s just sit here while the US make it legal on a federal basis.. it’ll happen. I spent 2 months in Colorado where it’s legal recreationally and medically – saying you can’t have access to regulated cannabis is like saying off you go to the pub and you’ve no idea what’s in your drink.. Strict laws re driving and public nuisance in CO, and I didn’t once see any incident. Did see cannabis in house window boxes a lot..

    12
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    Mute Gary Kearney
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    Dec 27th 2019, 2:13 PM

    @Arragh Sure: You are wrong and I know people who moved states in the US to use cannabis as medication.
    “Drugs Are Bad” line is killing the use of a non toxic drug.
    Big Pharma are stopping it until they get their artificial alternative right as the type on the market at the moment is lethal.
    There are thousands of studies and reports showing the good CBD does with a touch of THC in it.

    3
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    Mute Gary Kearney
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    Dec 27th 2019, 2:15 PM

    @Audrey Muddiman: Pushing through a product you can grow yourself.

    2
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    Mute Gary Kearney
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    Dec 27th 2019, 2:15 PM

    @Brendan Greene: It has been researched and thats why it is legal in a lot of states and countries like Canada.

    2
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    Mute Vincent McDermott
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    Dec 28th 2019, 8:07 AM

    @Gary Kearney: most active ingredients in Pharma is from natural products

    1
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    Mute Damien Barton
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    Dec 26th 2019, 10:11 PM

    Like antibiotics but keep selling away on them do

    27
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    Mute EdmundOrlando
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    Dec 26th 2019, 11:37 PM

    5htp is also a good cure all derived from plants thats legalised.. better than any anti depressant out there with minimal side effects!

    20
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    Mute Emer Caffrey
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    Dec 27th 2019, 10:19 AM

    @EdmundOrlando: very interesting, first time I’ve heard of it. Can it be taken with anti depressants?

    3
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    Mute Mary Morrisey
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    Dec 27th 2019, 10:45 AM

    @Emer Caffrey: No, just as St. John’s Wort can’t. 5HTP is not legally sold in Ireland.

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    Mute Vincent McDermott
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    Dec 28th 2019, 8:12 AM

    @Mary Morrisey: St John’s Wort has moved to prescription as it was shown to be a chemical disrupted I believe, and can interefer with things like the contraceptive pill

    1
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    Mute HearMeNow33
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    Dec 27th 2019, 12:26 PM

    I miss having a joint. Off it now 3.25 years. I know the day and date i stoped smoking it. No particular reason but drug driving laws were looming, not that i smoked while driving but i loved sitting down at night after work in front of tv and relaxing.. Preferred it to alcohol. Last drink i had was July… I never gave it up… I’m just on a break..

    11
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    Mute Perlum Sprite
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    Dec 27th 2019, 11:56 AM

    I would allow people to grow it at home, perhaps 2 plants.

    8
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    Mute Tommy Sea
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    Dec 27th 2019, 1:46 AM

    I feel violated, my human rights trampled on, because of the way it is now.

    7
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    Mute Deirdre Howard
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    Dec 27th 2019, 1:49 PM

    I drink CBD coffee and find it relaxed me.i love it. The coffee tastes great to

    4
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    Mute aidan mccormack
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    Dec 27th 2019, 7:04 AM

    @Anna69axx: nice try… you probably have big balls than I do.

    1
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    Mute Real Online Career
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    Jun 13th 2020, 2:00 PM

    CBD can be useful in treating depression – read about CBD and Depression at https://mjgrow.weebly.com/home/cbd-and-depression

    1
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    Mute Paul Dooley
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    Dec 27th 2019, 11:56 PM

    Time to test what they are selling

    Something is wrong when i saw it’s for sale in a tiny shopping center in sham town or which has 4 viable shops and a pop up shops all over the country

    Are these not the head shops back again wake up cal

    So it’s more profitable than everything else

    How much profit is out of it and is it addictive

    In 10 years time there will be an enquiry into it

    1
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