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THE ISSUE OF who should cover the cost of employee sick pay is a thorny one.
Many people were surprised earlier this year when Minister for Social Protection Joan Burton first mentioned that the State pays for employee sick leave.
The Minister used two main facts when she began discussing the issue of sick pay: firstly, that the number of people claiming illness and disability payments has risen by 40 per cent in the past ten years – and secondly, the amount the State has to spend on sickness benefit has almost tripled to €876 million over the same period.
Since then, the Minister has made it clear that it’s one of the things that she wants to target in next week’s Budget, with reports suggesting that the government plans to make companies liable for the first two weeks of an employee’s sick leave, with the State picking up the tab for anything longer than that.
Needless to say, not everyone is happy with the suggestion – not least some other members of the government. But what are the alternatives? We’ve asked three people – Sinn Féin TD Aengus Ó Snódaigh, head of think-tank TASC Nat O’Connor, and Brendan McGinty, the head of IBEC. Here’s what they suggested.
Brendan McGinty, Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Nat O’Connor
“This is a cutback dressed up to look like a positive development” – Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Sinn Féin.
“Social Protection Minister Joan Burton’s statutory sick pay proposal is an €89 million cutback dressed up to look like a positive development for workers.
“The minister proposes to transfer an €89 million burden from her department onto employers without taking account of their ability to pay and ignoring the fact that employers and employees both pay into the social insurance fund with a reasonable expectation that it will pay out when needed.
We all know that many businesses are struggling to stay afloat. The live register figures tell us that many have failed. If the minister pushes ahead with her sick pay proposals many more will be pushed over the edge costing even more jobs.
“At a time when small and medium sized businesses are struggling for their very survival it is incomprehensible that the government would heap yet another financial burden on their shoulders without even the slightest concern for their ability to pay or for the jobs they are putting at risk.
“Sinn Féin has an alternative proposal that takes account of the employers’ ability to pay and of the economic consequences of getting this proposal wrong.
“We propose to raise the employers’ PRSI contribution made on pay exceeding €100,000 to 15.75%, which would raise €91.5 million.
It would target businesses which can afford to pay some workers €100,000 or sums in excess of that. At 10.5 per cent, the standard employer PRSI rate is very low by international standards.
“In Austria the rate is 21.6 per cent, in Belgium 34.5 per cent, Finland 23 per cent, Sweden 31.4 per cent, France 40 per cent on the first €100,000 and Italy 32 per cent on the first €90,000.
Many businesses are struggling but some are not. As with all taxes, it is those who can afford to pay more that should be asked to do so.
“I think any business that continues to pay wages in excess of €100,000 to individuals can hardly be described as struggling and can demonstrably afford to contribute a little more.”
“The norm in the rest of the EU is for employers to contribute – why should Ireland be different?” – Nat O’Connor, TASC
“The first thing to note is that the government’s proposal for employers to cover some sick pay costs is not an unreasonable demand at this time. The social insurance fund ran dry in 2010 and, as a result, we had to put around one and a half billion euro from tax revenue into the fund in 2011 and we will have to top it up again this year, which is a major problem.
Part of the reason why the fund is running low – and why welfare entitlements here in Ireland are generally low – is because we pay a low level of social insurance. Irish levels of social insurance are less than half the EU average – just 5.8 per cent of GDP compared to 12.7 per cent in 2010, according to Eurostat.
“In total, Ireland has the lowest social insurance rates in Europe. When you look at the specific contribution made by employees and employers, employees contributions were 83 per cent of the European average level of social insurance in 2010 – but employers’ contributions were incredibly low: just 3.2 per cent of GDP compared to an EU average of 7.3 per cent. That is, employers’ contributions in Ireland are around 44 per cent of the EU average. The norm in the rest of the EU is for employers to contribute a lot more towards social insurance than in Ireland.
Lower social insurance rates means that labour costs are lower as a result, but it also means that there’s less money in the social insurance fund – hence it’s not unreasonable for employers to pay more costs directly, like sick leave, rather than draw from the fund.
“For this budget, TASC has proposed increasing employers’ PRSI, but only on employee salaries over €100,000. A third band introduced at 15 per cent wouldn’t reduce people’s take home pay but could raise nearly 78 million per annum for the social insurance fund.
“TASC would like to see self-employed people brought into the loop so they would contribute more to the fund but also be entitled to receive full benefits, as everyone should have the basic safety net of the social insurance system. The lack of benefits right now can make people afraid to set up in business as self-employed.
We need a national debate on the future of social insurance. Too much emphasis in the current economic crisis is on balancing the state’s finances, but there’s not enough of a focus on the model of social insurance system we want to have at the end of the day.
(Tupungato/Shutterstock)
“This is the last thing the economy needs” – Brendan McGinty, IBEC
“The planned €3.5 billion adjustment in the budget is about right, given the gap between what the Government is spending and taking in, but it needs to be done in way least damaging to growth and job creation. The focus must be on cutting expenditure, not raising taxes.
“Any increase in labour costs, through the introduction of a statutory sick pay scheme, would make companies less likely to take on new staff and would push already struggling firms out of business. It would reduce Ireland’s attractiveness as an investment location and undermine hard won competitiveness gains of recent years.
OECD research suggests that an increase in taxes on labour of 1 per cent reduces an economy’s employment rate by about 0.4 per cent. Based on this calculation a statutory sick pay scheme would cost at least 3,500 jobs, both directly and indirectly, in the economy.
“A recent IBEC survey further highlights the very damaging consequences should the Government choose to proceed with the proposal. Almost half (49 per cent) of the 450 respondents with an occupational sick pay scheme said such a move would affect their company’s ability to recruit new employees; a similar number (47 per cent) said it would affect their ability to retain existing staff; and 42 per cent said it would affect the sustainability of their business in Ireland.
It should also be remembered that employees and employers already make obligatory PRSI contributions to support social welfare provision. Employers alone pay €5 billion a year into the Social Insurance Fund, which is 75 per cent of the total fund.
“Adding to employment costs at a time when many businesses are struggling is the last thing the economy needs.”
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She should have been thrown out ages ago along with a lot of other Senior members
@Mark Walsh: nothing is going to change, the next lackey will tow the line like last & the one before
@Richard Cronin: they should push her now, because there is even more to come in Noirin and it is not any better.
@Mark Walsh: not thrown out, arrested and prosecuted, those who enforce the law and break the law should be subject to the maximum extent of the law, no extenuating circumstances plain simple maximum sentence available! But there is a problem, a guard investigating a guard!
@Mark Walsh:
And prosecutors should throw the book at the lot of them
@Richard Cronin: The next Commissioner needs to be from overseas in order to be credible. Otherwise they’ll be seen as coming from the same club of cronies.
@Mark Walsh: anyone of us does anything wrong in a job we get sacked this lot are immune to anything along with bankers politicians anyone rich really
Exposed at last. Now what ? Carry on FFS
@Peter Higgins: What do you mean “at last”? At this stage it’s like the Donald trump saga, how incompetent/corrupt does she and many (at the to level) in the organisation actually need to prove themselves before they’re removed. They need a hard nosed person from outside Ireland to come in and clean house. Cooperate and do your job, or walk the plank.
@Joseph Blocks: don’t see where you got corrupt from??
@Andrew Dillon: There’s willful corruption and there’s incompetent corruption. She definitely incompetent and I’d be very surprised if it’s not both.
@Patrick Kearns: so you wouldn’t consider the collusion to slander and discredit Maurice McCabe which she took part in corrupt? Which stemmed from part of a larger coverup McCabe was trying to expose. I consider it worse then corruption what was done to McCabe.
Hopefully this will bring down the government into the bargain.
@Mark DeFriest: agree – there could be an election in August.
@Mark DeFriest: no chance FF will huff and puff as usual but do nothing and it will back fire on them so move along now nothing to see here
@John Ryan: she is not standing for Election,.
@John Ryan: during the Dail holiday… don’t think so.
She didn’t inherit a mess, she was part of it! Or was she just whispering sweet nothings in Callinans ear when he was being investigated?
@Mistawez:
Yes and that’s the worst part of her appointment.
FG have dined out on being the party of law and order it seems it’s only law and order when it’s doesn’t affect Their political appointees. Well Leo what about the thuggery involved here
@Tim Brennan: they fina gael were always mouthing on morals , flanagans and cosgrave and fitzgeralds but never achieved anything for the average guy,,
Fianna Gaols “Bouncers” are bent so?
@Frank Cauldhame:
Serious question. Is Fianna Gaol a play on the joint Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil government or a typo or maybe a bit of both?
@Nick Allen:
Jog along Nick !
@Frank Cauldhame:
Does that mean you don’t know?
@Nick Allen:
Are you upset with how things are panning out?
@Frank Cauldhame:
Why would I be upset? She was a bad appointment and the Gardai is rife with corruption at a very senior level. She needs to be removed from her job ASAP.
You jump on the blue shirt bandwagon all too quickly and assume you know people’s political ideologies.
@Frank Cauldhame: Shock horror, what a surprise.
@Nick Allen:
Its just t’internet, don’t allow yourself to get so wound up, is it actually worth it?
@Frank Cauldhame:
I am not at all wound up, just sitting in the back of a taxi passing the time. The joys of mobile technology.
@Nick Allen:
Glad you are ok, safe home.
@Frank Cauldhame:
Thx
Low standards in high places is what we Irish excel in.
@Tony Daly: This country in not a fully functioning Democratic Republic, as evidenced by the countless Tribunal’s, inquiries, and commissions, mostly caused by the incompetent , cover up cute hoor state apparatus, who are then rewarded with tax free lump sums and golden pensions some at 50 years of age. It could only happen in Paddy fairy land.
Why can’t politicians ever admit they backed the wrong horse? Once O’Sullivan was given her first (of now umpteen) expressions of ‘full confidence’ by our elected politicians in government, to have to admit as scandals trip over themselves being unearthed that ya know what – we were wrong, she’s part of the problem and definitely NOT part of the solution is beyond them & they stick to the original script
The very fact she’s still there at all even after yet another scandal, indicates to me at least that she’s waiting for the golden handshake that she wouldn’t get if she resigned or she’s not being allowed to go by her political masters.
Seriously, this has been going from crisis to crisis and now the EU are investigating as European funds were slushed around in the Templemore gravy boat.
@Gerry Carroll: mary harney had a long run at abusing her powers with a piano in her hotel room in south africa and still she clung on , same with cowen and bertie, seems a very irish thing ”never letting go of the gravy train” ..
no wonder the main parties will suffer,,
The golden handshake is coming, only the select few.
A corrupt government needs a corrupt police force or neither will thrive.
There’s no point in simply sacking Noirin. many of the top Garda management have been there with both her an Calinan all along.
A whole sale purge of the Gardai is needed from top to bottom. The inherent culture has to change.
Well done PAC again. Another good report. You would have to wonder what kind of dirt she has on a lot of the politicians who continue to support her??
@Grainne Kelly: Thats the 64 billion question Grainne.
@Grainne Kelly: Nail on the head.
Put the whistleblowers in charge and give them Carte Blanche!!
What do you have to do to get fired from a public position in Ireland? A grubby corrupt little country which could not give a damn about the ordinary citizen and yet justifies and excuses the crimes of the elite. Feck parochial politics and throw this useless woman and her cabal out of the gardai and re-structure the service.
And who will take her place? Replacing the wrapping doesn’t hide the fact the the package is damaged and rotten.
@Brian McDonnell: Sadly I agree with you. It will take along time for trust to be restored after this episode and the previous commissioners “decision” to resign…….
Quiet for ten months? What was she thinking or she decided to report the theft after money wasn’t transferred to her account possibly in Cabra as she was promised……how so unfortunately!
If ever an article required a ban on comments. This is it. The can of worms that could be opened.
@Seriously:
The can of worms SHOULD be opened
@Seriously: if the “can of worms” were not opened, then this would not have come to light. I’m all for cans of worms.
@Tweed Cap: I am all for the can of worms to be opened, but this Ireland. We don’t do accountability, honesty or value for money in high office or any public office. It was briefly mentioned today on Newstalk that Charlie Flanagan came out immediately to back the Garda Commisioner. The reason being, to do otherwise would set in motion a case for constructive dismissal. The mantra I’m sure will be Nothing To See Here.
@Seriously: The Cabinet has the power to dismiss the Commissioner for any reason it likes, to the best of my knowledge.
Que : FF reps saying that they she should step down, then voting down a motion of no confidence in her and then backing another motion of confidence in NOS, from FG!
The whole structure of the gardai needs to be completely overhauled. Recruit people from top international law enforcement agency’s from around the world i.e. Interpol, Scotland yard, FBI. Set up a panel of these professionals to devise a new policing structure and training regime in Ireland and let them head it for the next 10 years, recruit and train their replacement until the existing incompetent lot are gone and replaced.
Will Leo send the head of his Department too ask for her resignation like Enda did. Or will he ask her to resign properly.The Garda Commissioner tenure is becoming a joke and her pussy footing around things is not helping her, any situation or the Government.
@Mick McGuinness:
TBH it doesn’t matter how he does it, send her a text for all I care. The result is the most important thing and it just has to be done.
Hard to believe Alan kelly is leading the PAC when he blatantly and continually lied about the Irish water figures.
Clean it out to have any hope of change,if there are no consequences there will be no change.
@@mdmak33: totally agree. They’ve been operating outside and above the law well over a decade now. Chris Patten totally restructured the old RUC which had its own issues but here it’s endemic and part of a long standing ‘we ARE the law, the rules don’t apply to us’ that’s brought this sickening saga to go on and on no matter what!
@@mdmak33: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/suspects-planned-to-intimidate-garda%C3%AD-1.539706 So what happened here?
She should be gone . When she does take fn Joan, an Kelly with you please
What a farce though I do feel sorry for the rank and file who will be those carrying the brunt of this report.
She should be throwing put months ago
If everyone in opposition wants her gone Pippy polka dot socks will keep her on in defient arrogance.
If she does go ,she goes with a Golden Pension,and even when that happens it will be costly ,but the cost if she remains can not be calculated,go and may your God go with you
If it was any other job she would be fired.. why wait for her to step down… fire her
The Irish voters are the real culprits, voting for politicians they know are corrupt. Stop complaining and stop stealing my money in taxes.
Quickest way to get sacked in this country is to be honest or competent.
Only in this cesspit of a country corrupt to the core could someone like this survive so many scandals, the garda from top to bottom are absolutely rotten and not to be trusted whatsoever under any circumstances.
not sure getting rid of her will solve anything a lot of this is deep and historic..the gardai need a long slow culture change, maybe she could begin the process as good as anyone else….
Should have been sacked a long time ago
Call in thr Guards..
Only in Ireland do heads not step down for a scandal on their watch. instead they want to remain in power and do the reform themselves. Country is as corrupt as it gets.
Catherine Murphy out on your own
I’ve a question if this is going back 2006 2008 2011 2013 and she was commissioned in November 2014 is it an inherent problem for the previous commissioner’s ?
Noirin: ……..To paraphrase the immortal words of Oliver Cromwell………’You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately……Depart, I say, and let us have done with you….. In the name of God, Go’….
It seems to be one scandal after another with the guards. The level of corruption that is going on the bullying and The lack of accountability amongst all grades of guards is sickening.
Is it time we started to take a serious look at the caliber of people we take on as Guards. Its very rewarding knowing where my taxes are going in this pathetic country.
This sorry little affair tells us all we need to know about our little republic of democracy ,one rule for those that have leverage on power and the other unfortunates who have to take all the shit .enda kenny and his democratic revolution ,our patriots would take the lot of them out the back and put a bullit in their hear .We demand wholesale change now .i dont blame o sullivan this is being part of the system and you must participate .
Each scandal tarnishes the Gardaí that bit more, F.G. and her have to think about history and image of the Gardaí or does one person mean more than the organisation???
She’s useless
@Phil Keenan: What was her work in Dundalk???
@Mark Walsh: the problem with that is that it’s becoming obvious to many that the DPP office has also been corrupted, so where do you go with it?
How much does it cost the tax payer to fund her resignation?? I’m guessing it won’t be cheap. This country is shocking lately. We need complete reform.
As I’ve said before, this is why we are a neutral country with a part-time defence force. In any other civilised western country, the army would have stepped in ten years ago and told the politicians that its time to start again. In 100 years of independence we have managed to destroy everything and torn up the constitution time and time again. I hope she is kept in place until she is given the opportunity to lie to a tribunal
Leo, time to show you have some balls and sack her
@Nick Allen: Leo, time to pull up your multi-coloured socks….
@Nick Allen: Show some balls? Hahaha this just makes a further fool of him. Proclaiming full confidence before finding out the facts. Well done Leo, another huge mess for you to try and BS your way out of.
Fianna Gaol fully supported her up until a few minutes ago.
@Dante Marquinhos:
It takes a lot of balls to admit you got it wrong. Yes he gave her his support which at the time appeared a stupid thing to do and now it is proving to be so. If he sits on the fence he will lose credibility, if he takes it on the chin and admits he was wrong then he will gain some support for people
@Nick Allen: Or go one better and admit that O’Sullivan was a political appointment and the Gardaí are not as independent as he likes to claim. Too much to ask maybe?
@Dante Marquinhos: Just to add, we are stumbling from one Gardaí scandal to the next while the government have given full support and turned a blind eye, all the way to the Martin Callahan scandal. There is no coming out of this looking good, Fine Gael are to blame for allowing these scandals continue.
@Dante Marquinhos:
In fairness it wasn’t his appointment so he should not be party to all of the reasons behind her appointment.
@Nick Allen: He has given full support throughout, his hands are dirty.
@Nick Allen:
Ah so poor Leo finds himself in a “Pontius Pilate” scenario?
@Nick Allen: “In fairness it wasn’t his appointment”
“Ah it wasn’t his fault, it was the guy before him”. How Fianna Fail of you LOL
@Frank Cauldhame:
No Pontious Pilate whatsoever. Leo needs to be seen as the person to yield the axe.
@Dante Marquinhos:
I don’t like FF but it’s a better excuse than defending murder with an excuse of the phone wasn’t working
@Nick Allen: I didn’t say you liked Fine Fail, I said you sounded like them because they used the same excuses too. Secondly, your reference to Sinn Fein doesn’t apply to me as I have no connection or support them in any way or ever have.
How is it that you Blueshirts find that concept hard to comprehend? Oh I don’t support any of the other parties neither, so now what?
@Nick Allen: or ‘wield’ it even!
@theupsidedown:
Indeed Sir, you are correct
You’d love to know what “interesting” information the garda hold on fg politicans. We won’t fire you if you say nothing and shamelessly stand your ground.
The only party to get rid of 2 commissioners, guess we get what we vote for.
she should tell the politicians that she “has a job to do” and give two fingers to them and the public just like Edna. Sure they have no power, and what useless politician would walk out of a high paying job because of “integrity” “honesty”…. pffft. Who will pay fintans private tuition fees??? Move along, more tribunals/enquirys to entertain the monkeys.
Welllllll- maybeeeeee
Do we not believe any more in heaven and hell what’s happening in this country one scandal after another I am mesmerised with all of this or am I a fool is every one at it telling lies and cheating.
Alan Kelly spouting off again on the 6/1. What a mouth, and he just scraped in after his “wonderful” tenure in Government. A bit of an idiot alright.
The same auld warriors are out again for Noirin, you can always depend on SF, and the other renegades to come out guns blazing, good for nothing louts, that’s what they are . Stick tight FG, stand firm FF now when you are needed, against the looney left ant that clown Kelly from Labour. Let’s back Law and Order now and put down this rebellion for good.
@Eugene Comaskey: well said. Stay put noirin. AK lucky to be elected, now judge and wannabe executioner. Ffs.
@Eugene Comaskey: I read an interesting article yesterday about Fianna Fail covering up for pedophile Bill Kenneally in Waterford.
It needed a fresh broom after Callinan left, an outsider. Noirin was cut from the same cloth as Callinan and needed to really show from the onset that she was going to run a different show. Instead it appears to be business as usual and scandal after scandal. They’re not even competent at being incompetent. They line up behind positions that are later proven to be untrue and show no remorse at having done so – think McCabe with his hidden tape-recorder which contradicted what they were alleging or the Jobstown video evidence debacle but it stretches back much further than that to the McBrearty affair and before.
Welllllll- maybeeeeee
As I understand it the Commissioner is only just over two years into a seven year contract. So unless she has broken the law if she is sacked will she not be able to sue for unfair dismissal? Who would pick up that tab folks? Would it be the TD’s calling for her head or us muggings the poor old taxpayer? Don’t take too long mulling that one over people!!!
It’s only now they’re calling for her to go. What a shower of useless parasites.
It’s time for a lot of our gombeen idiot politicians to go too.
For an organisation with such experience in covering-up, they’re not very good at it.
I hope new legislation is introduced to delete old minor convictions as a result of all controversies to restore public confidence in the guards.
Looks very like a lynching mob to me!
This is hilarious, we believe you have been in the wrong presiding over scandal after scandal so if you wouldn’t mind, only if you feel like it, have a lollipop and ice cream first, then if you still feel like staying that’s grand but maybe going is the best thing. She should be fired, pensionless and thrown in jail for good measure, the pussy footing around this subject is ridiculous.
Don’t let her step down, sack her!
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