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OVER 800 JUNIOR doctors have written to the Health Minister James Reilly to warn that they may be forced to emigrate for work if an agenda that seeks to “portray the medical profession as though they are driven by greed” continues.
The non-consultant hospital doctors (NCHD) have supported a ‘write-in’ campaign that is organised by the Irish Medical Organisation (IMO) in which symbolic plane boarding passes were signed to indicate they are considering abroad for work.
There have been tensions between consultants and the Health Service Executive in recent months over talks surrounding new contracts which would change working hours and practices as Reilly looks to make savings in the sector.
“We are approaching a crossroads for the NCHD grade in the Irish healthcare services,” Dr Mark Murphy, chair of the NCHD committee of the IMO said.
“There is deep unease amongst my colleagues that medicine is becoming a tainted profession and that there is an agenda to portray the medical profession as though they are driven by greed.”
The president of the IMO Dr Paul McKeown said that the Minister had been implementing policies which were leading to the export of “our brightest and best”.
He said that the health service would suffer in the coming years as a result with the number of those supporting the campaign representing a “deep well of disquiet and apprehension” amongst junior doctors.
“NCHDs are the source of our specialist physicians and surgeons in Ireland,” he said.
“These doctors have been educated and trained here yet more and more are now planning not just to spend a few years abroad but to permanently relocate overseas. That is disastrous for this country.”
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Excellent Excellent Article. Wish I had the writing skills of this guy. Talk about nailing it….
SHE does speak the truth alright
Erm the writer is a lady!
The gender of the writer’s hardly relevant in this instance, doesn’t change the fact it’s a terrific piece.
Christ if we cant see that a culture of patriarchy has played a massive role in both the Church and the State in subjagtion of women and children – to the extent that many where criminalised because they where women and children then we are to learn nothing. So to that extent it is worth nothing the proper gender of the person writing the above. And yeah i know gender is to an extent socially constructed, but its seems crazy to suggest that its not significant that its – yet again- women who are writing the damning critiques of our society.
Why is that? well cos women have been at the sharp end of patriarchy and capitalism for generations
That’s where its important, the writer is female, and most present day religions see the female gender as threatening and therefore spend a lot of energy suppressing females in every way. However, Lisa speaks for all in my opinion.
Will somebody start an online petition to make RTE ditch the angelus.
Why don’t you?
Excellent article. It should be required reading. Well done. XXX
Wooopsi sorry….GAL.!!!! Well done Lisa
Outstanding writing. As a devout Atheist I plan to read this next Sunday at my non-existent church, in front of my non-existent congregation & non-existent god.
*hits ‘print’ on the bubblejet*
This is the best description I have ever heard or read of the Catholic Religion, point by point, you hit the nail on the head. Someone reading the new testament and Jesus Christ’s teachings, on which the church is supposedly based, would have a very hard time reconciling the two. Very well said.
Margaret, I have no problem reconciling the bullying catholic church with its bullying book, It condones slavery, subjugation of women, the stoning of disobedient children, genocide and shellfish(???). Among other things…
Sounds like you’re reading the Old Testament there.I see Margaret made reference to the New Testament, however you are probably right on the point about women.
As a catholic mom of Tweens and teenagers I find this article deeply insulting. That is all. I could go through point by point rubbishing the hatred, prejudice and uneducated stereotyping demonstrated so magnificently by the journalist but I have more constructive things to do with my time.
but you do have time to say down with this sort of thing. I personally think it is a fantastically accurate and articulate piece. I would welcome comments which are critical of the article if they at least had a cojent argument for the purpose of debate. Yours sadly is not one of them.
You really should not lay down the gauntlet, with out arguments to back it up! The writer of this piece is no journalist, she is rather an intelligent, eloquent,brilliant Irishwoman!
@Jennifer Kehoe. I think your comments are exactly what the author was talking about. Try not to smother under all that good will.
Christ, if there’s one thing I hate, it’s “speaking as a mother….” pomposity.
P.
I doubt very highly that you could rubbish the article it point by point, Jennifer. That is all. The article is spot on. And I say that as a non-catholic Dad.
@Jennifer Kehoe As a child of the Industrial Schools – snatched by the Catholic Church to feed that abusive machine – I welcome this article in it’s totality. It is well-written and well argued. It is very heartening, as well, that it strikes a chord with most readers. At long last Ireland is coming out of the shadow that the malign hand of the Catholic Church had cast over Ireland for such a long, long time.
It shouldn’t be read as an attack on people of the Catholic faith, nor should An Taoiseach’s stunning intervention on Cloyne be seen as anti-Catholic, rather they should be seen as encouragements to challenge cabals within that organisation which has caused so much misery to so many women and children over so many decades on this island and elsewhere.
The fact that the article is written by a woman is all the more astounding because it is that gender that is excluded entirely from ALL decision-making in the Catholic Church – indeed it is that gender that is the most downtrodden in all of religious history.
@Brian Kelleher…Thank you, I feel very sorry for them too, wow! what a year they’ve had seeing their baby sister go through one major cardiac surgery after another, as well as all the worry about her brain malformation I wouldn’t wish that on any child, but they have been fantastic and have come through with such unity and strength. I have learned so much from them and am so proud of them. I feel sorry for them but I admire them greatly too. I take it you know me though your name doesn’t ring a bell, oh well, thanks anyway. Baby is doing great now and we’re very hopeful for her and her future surgeries.
You find it “offensive”? Tough shit, you have no right not to be offended. You do, however, have the right of reply which you’ve chosen not to / can’t exercise.
@Jennifer. Ireland is shit when it comes to religion. People who sit around on their fat arses reading anti-catholic articles like this and mocking other peoples beliefs are idiots, they need to get a life. They seem quite full of hate but they will have to face their maker in the end. I can’t stand all this “I’m a Catholic but…” business that goes on these days, sadly, Ireland is filled with it!
@Brian Kelleher. and ALL THE OTHER HATERS. I’m sure Jennifer is a great mother and if she is a true Catholic, I can bet you 100% that her children are all well behaved, obedient, happy children! All the nicest children I know come from strong Catholic backgrounds FACT.
@Fearganainim/Gavin Hoey. Anyone could “rubbish” the measly rubbish in that article point by point, you don’t have to be a genius.
@Paul Moloney. God, if there’s one thing I hate, it’s “I’m a saddo who likes criticizing strangers ….” pomposity. (btw. unlike you, I don’t hate much)
I will be praying tonight for all of the people who sit around with nothing better to do than to post hateful comments directed towards Catholics and mothers who they don’t even know!
@Jennifer. Ireland is shit when it comes to religion. People who sit around on their fat arses reading anti-catholic articles like this and mocking other peoples beliefs are idiots, they need to get a life. They seem quite full of hate but they will have to face their maker in the end. I can’t stand all this “I’m a Catholic but…” business that goes on these days, sadly, Ireland is filled with it!
@Brian Kelleher. and ALL THE OTHER HATERS. I’m sure Jennifer is a great mother and if she is a true Catholic, I can bet you 100% that her children are all well behaved, obedient, happy children! All the nicest, politest, happiest children I know come from strong Catholic backgrounds FACT.
@Fearganainim/Gavin Hoey. Anyone could “rubbish” the measly rubbish in that article point by point, you don’t have to be a genius.
@Paul Moloney. God, if there’s one thing I hate, it’s “I’m a saddo who likes criticizing strangers ….” pomposity. (btw. unlike you, I don’t hate much)
I will be praying tonight for all of the people who sit around with nothing better to do than to post hateful comments directed towards Catholics and mothers who they don’t even know!
Aren’t you the great girl altogether, Emily, with all your facts and prayers for us eejits and what have you. Don’t forget to mention that you typed the word S-H-I-T on the internet next time you’re at confession. Probably only get a couple of Hail Marys for it though, you’ll be grand.
For all those who believe that this article could be rubbished point by point, nobody seems to be doing it.
@Andrew Brennan, I have been reading your posts on this article and my eyes were brimming over when I read of your experience as a child and how a woman’s kindness to you in hospital in the simple act of reading stories to you sticks with you till this day…a simple experience which every child should be able to take for granted. Do not think for a single minute that ordinary believing Catholics either somehow think that to mistreat children in any way has justification or that we are so hard hearted as to not really care. My heart is broken when i think of how lonely and abandoned children like you must have felt and to look at my own children and their innocent little ways and think that it was children just like these who had such horrible experiences and who must have been so terrified to wake up in the morning…it is truly beyond horror!
I read a piece about a girl who had experienced all sorts of mistreatment as a child and young adult and believed and felt she was used, trampled on and of no worth as that is what had been drummed into her year in year out…the person she was telling took our a $20 note and asked would she like it, ‘Yes’ she answered. He crumpled it in his fist and then asked did she still want it ‘of course’ she replied…he went on to throw the note on the gutter and trampled on it, he picked up the note covered in mud and grime and asked the girl did she still want it…’yes I do’ she said ‘ it still has the same value’. It was the start of her recovery in seeing that her value as a person of great worth and dignity was on no way dependent on how she had been treated by others who had failed to see a child so beautifully made and loved by God. Don’t give up on God, for He is the one who made you the unbelievable treasure you are. Please take this note to be in no way intended to be patronising, condescending or have any other agenda but to let you see that people do actually care and have empathy for what happened in Ireland and I am so very very sorry it happened to you. Jennifer
“If the gods are not destroyed, the earth might be”.
Julian King
Lovely, well written piece. That last line especially resonates essentially equating the Catholic church with an illegal organisation. Like the mafia, or the IRA. Except probably not as much harm has been done in their names as in that of the Church. Well done Lisa. We need more like u!
Phenomenal…. powerful piece.
Lisa McInerney is one of the best writers out there in the blogging community and I can’t wait for the day when some canny eyed literary agent or newspaper editor cops on to this fact and presents her to the wider world as what she really is, that of a writer who’ll one day be regarded as a national treasure.
I think that Lisa’s written an excellent piece and agree with her whole-heartedly.
I still don’t understand why there hasn’t been a mass movement to the Church of Ireland – if Irish Catholics examined their beliefs, they’d probably find they correspond a lot closer to Protestantism than Catholicism. Do you REALLY believe in transubstantiation? Hand on heart, really and truly?
I don’t get how the Church of Ireland haven’t been putting ads in the paper… “Got faith? Disgusted at the Catholic hierarchy? Join us, we’re nicer!”
And of course the ‘hierarchy’ of the Church of Ireland are all squeaky clean!! Just because they are not Catholic they are free of any scandal. An excellent conclusion…………NOT.
And of course there’s another option, think for yourself. An excellent conclusion……….. YES.
Bingo, Aileen!
Alas, it appears to be a physical impossibility for some people, they need to be told who to think.
I’m still trying to figure out how to extricate myself from the Catholic Church, but I’m not aligned with any belief system (due to not believing in anything). Some people do have a belief in all that stuff though, and feel that a faith community is an important thing to be a part of. Hence my suggestion to look elsewhere for somewhere that is a better match, whatever it may be. Maybe it’s not the church of ireland (I know very little about them), but they’re worth a look, surely?
ditto.
Excellent article really hits the nail
I found this to be an interesting article and I though I’d give a go at contributing to a very interesting follow up discussion, firstly I’ll state openly that I’m coming from an agnostic point of view, I used to be catholic but I don’t use that word anymore.Reading the article I have to agree with much of the sentiment expressed by the author in relation to people picking and choosing what elements of the churches teachings they now follow. Most people, I believe, would at least consider themselves to be moral in the majority of their life experiences and I think an almost Buddhist philosophy of ‘do good things and good things are more likely to happen to me’ has taken over from any strict following of commandments or rules of behavior read out from the alter every Sunday or written in some book 2000 years ago. While people many still consider themselves Roman Catholic the days of taking everything the parish priest has to say as the unquestionable word of god so to speak have gone, religion and spirituality in general are now a far more personal experiences and people are starting to gain confidence enough to question the previously unquestioned, looking elsewhere and trying to take the positives from a mixture of religions, philosophical belief practices and moral and political ideals. The world is a rapidly changing place and much like with the rules of the market every religion has the task of keeping its customers happy or else risk that their congregations will they’ll start to shop elsewhere for their spiritual guidance.
Well said James. I believe most of us have been ‘picking and choosing’ for many years, we choose to ignore the ban on contraceptives (well I have anyway) and we choose to either go to mass or not. Much of the problem with the past is that people were too trusting of the parish priests (and nuns) who were total strangers to our kids and us. I have lost a lot of respect for the church, however I do feel that our children still need spiritual guidance in school. A total separation of state and religion, or spiritual guidance of a sort as is in America would be a disaster. I grew up in America, I attended a strict private catholic school until the age of 14. I then switched to the public school system, where no religion was allowed…what a difference! The kids were so different and many had no conscience when it came to the treatment of others. I would hate to see that happen here.
Sorry to say, Susan, that there are many Sunday Morning Christians whose treatment of others is reprehensible. It is not school prayer that teaches decency and morality, although I wish it were that easy.
Aye aye, they’re all out now. Did someone send a mayday to the catholic intellectual hotline or something?
Some good trollin’ out of you sir…
Look who’s talking
Touché
*doffs cap*
Amazing article.
What a load of hate filled drivel. Where are you getting this notion that catholics cannot question vatican policy. To be a catholic you must obey the “catechism of the catholic church”, you should give it a read believe it or not there is no references to homosexuality or “raping babies” as you so emotivly put it. Do you think the priests who openly criticise the vatican and the hierarcy consider themselves less catholic. The hierarcy of the church have shown themselves to be morally currupt, some of them should be in prison as punnishment for the damage they have done to children.
You really missed the point there didn’t you?
Well enlighten me then. What was the point I missed?
Those priests you speak of could almost be termed *ahem* ‘Protestants’
Look up the meaning of ‘doctrine’, please. You seem slightly confused, to put it gently.
The Christian teachings on homosexuality are found in the Bible, not the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Let’s face it though, the vast majority of Irish “catholics” have probably not read the former or even heard of the latter.
time to embrace celtic mysticism?
If would be nice if a single ultra-Catholic (I use this term to denote those who are so pro-Vatican they now regard people like the Archbishop of Dublin, the head of the Association of Catholic Priests, and Enda Kenny as anti-Catholic) could articulate why exactly they disagree with the article. I thought Catholicism at least had some leaning towards intellectualism, but here we just get a string of *LOL* *YAWN* *BORING* style remarks.
P.
I don’t think Enda Kenny & A/B Martin are anti-Catholic (the ACP are another matter however) so I’m not so sure I can help you here… Nor does any other Catholic I know…
A/B Martin is an extraordinarily decent man. Enda Kenny’s speech, although certainly rash, was profoundly touching, precisely because he was a Catholic who was wounded by recent revelations.
The ACP are a bunch of aging hippy Methodists who, for some strange reason, still think they’re Catholics(!)
^^^ That’s hyperbole before you go on a rant about how they’re wonderful!
Funny how Roman Catholics are seen to be the only Catholics in this country, they are not.
The Roman Catholic Church in this country has proven it’s self to be despicable and I don’t know how any person can defend it.
There are many good people who are Roman Catholics and hopefully they will schism from Rome, or reform the RC Church here or in the case were what they choose to believe is at odds with Roman Catholic dogma and decree leave and join on of the other Catholic churches.
Most Irish Catholics I know are Anglican in all but name, but they have been blinded by years of cultural brainwashing to think other wise. They don’t have to give up their faith at all but they need to look for better leadership and be honest with themselves about ‘Tradition’ vs Religion.
Agree! I’m a former catholic (now no longer a believer) and I have parents who are so sick and disgusted at what has been happening, but still have faith. I’ve been gently suggesting that there are other very similar, but much more sensible places for them to pray, and for them to give their money to!
former cat-holic – someone formerly addicted to cats.
no actually that would be cata-holic. sorry, my bad.
In your case i think and most lapsed Catholics,the freemasons would do.
Nope, nothing for me thanks. :)
I am deeply saddened and disgusted with the abuse that SOME priests did and he elders who should have done something abt it. The department of education was also involved yet you still send you kids to school. I still go to church because of my faith in God and wanting to spend time in prayer. The men of the church and the Vatican are not the religion. Because I go to church does not men I defend the actions of some sick men.
I think a lot of people agree with you Monica…including myself. We just have to learn from this and move forward.
Have you considered moving to a different brand of christianity? Tried looking into the doctrines of different Orthodox or Protestant churches for example? Figure out what you believe, then find the church which matches it most closely. You don’t HAVE to remain a part of the organisation that has covered up these horrible acts for so long.
Its not easy to walk away from the religion you grew up with, its ingrained in us. I’m really angry at the way the church chose to cover up the abuse, but whats even worse was the way ordinary people handled it. If a child told anyone, they were not believed or worse beaten for even suggesting it. People held the clergy in such high regard that they could abuse their children and get away with it.
I’m still catholic but I am a very different catholic today. The church has done a lot of damage but we can overcome it and move forward if we want to. God help those abused, they have no choice.
I’m pretty happy where I am. These ‘leaders’ are ‘humans’ and ‘people’ who are not perfect. Just forget about the church for a second and lets concentrate on abuse of children for a second because it is a problem in this country and not just perpetrated by clergy members but by teachers and doctors. A lot of people, whether they are religious leaders, mothers, fathers, government find it had to face up to abuse. It is so much easier to turn a blind eye because it something so horrific to imagine. From a psychological point of view its a ‘defensive mechanism’. Like when woman is raped. Some of would like to say ‘oh well she shouldn’t have worn what she did or been at that dangerous place’, because in our head we rationalise it that it can’t happen to us if we don’t dress a certain way or avoid dangerous places. Fact is rape is power and not about sex. I have counselled children and adult survivors of rape who’s own parents denied molestation of teachers or the molestation of a brother to 2 of his sisters. They didn’t want to face up to it. Its unfortunetly the human condition and it certainly doesn’t make it right but turning away from Catholicism is certainly not going to stop child abuse in society. Case in point is non-Christian countries in Africa with extremely high rates or rape and child abuse. Like South Africa where it occurs every 27 seconds.
Yeah froodie no scandals there at all. Only a Catholic problem is it?
I just think that tradition is a poor reason to remain as part of a religious organisation which is so rotten that the Church itself is more important than the values, morals and beliefs it initally embodied. Go looking, find somewhere new to put your prayers and your shekels.
The sheer density of poorly researched Catholic stereotypes squeezed into each paragraph in this article is simply astounding.
Granted, such articles are to be expected in the weeks following each report.
Naturally enough, I suppose, every time a report highlights the genuine failings of the Church (regarding child protection procedures), every person with another agenda clamours onto the bandwagon with their own little hobby horse(s) & polemics.
Brilliant article and well articulated so every one can get it’s sense of depth and it’s reality
I’ve not been religious in a long time
I believe in the faith and strength of your loved ones family friends, community minus the church bit.
Faith in noble people, honest workers, people who see and develop the good in others these people shud be our leaders
We lack leadership in our country we are run off the back of ideals going back 30-40 yrs which do not fall in line with society today so they try to grip us with fear and damnation
The only person in many yrs to throw down the gauntlet was enda Kenny with his speech the other day I’m not political in any way but I like the cut of this man and he needs the chance to prove himself
We need so badly to work on family and community teach new lessons away from the church and their defunct writings
Put the love of your family above anything in this world, be strong in your convictions and know everyone has the right to speak.
And not everyone in positions of power and influence are right all the time, just because we’ve had bad teachers relation to religion and government matters in the last 30 odd yrs does not make us weak , immoral, bad or poor people
They’ve knocked us into the ground way too often so what doesn’t break you makes you stronger
Teach the new generation new ways new methods si they don’t fall into the same rut many of us have in the last 3 decades
Dint rely on church or government or backhanders to make it thru the day
Rely on intelligence integrity and industry and above all be honest to yourself and not what other aspire you to be
Right hope that made a little sense
What a load of irrational rubbish.
Elaborate?
Oh come on like, can the 10 or so members who thumb down every assenting comment please back up their disapp
*disapproval, if they can? People who actually base their beliefs on evidence and reason find it unbelievably irritating when bold statements are made without anything to back them up.
Guess we have to take the rationale of these sweeping and unelaborated dismissals of the article on faith. Or perhaps it’s an ecumenical matter.
For “” the genuine failings of the Church (regarding child protection procedures) “” please read: The use of children’s bodies for sexual gratification, the trafficking of babies, the physical torture of children, the use of children for slave labour, the starvation of child labourers …… just so we know we’re all on the same page and not reading from a hymn sheet concocted in the Vatican.
I’m sorry, was there a misunderstanding about that….?
Believe it or believe it not, but you don’t have a monoply on being horrified at the crimes of individual clerics.
I read all the reports, as I’m sure you have too.
My point was, which I’m almost certain you knew & chose to ignore, that every person with an agenda contrary to the Catholic Church use the abuse crisis &, therefore, the suffering of the abuse survivors’ as a pretext to further their agenda.
I mean, wtf has the Church’s position on baptism?
If the agenda is the protection of children from agents of the Catholic Church (Religious Orders known to the Ryan Report) then the agenda is an honourable one. The same Orders responsible for all of the abuses in the Industrial Schools also manage primary schools, secondary schools and boarding schools, they also manage hospitals despite the revelations in the Ryan Report , which I partly helped to write as my testimony is included in it.
While these Religious Orders still hold powerful positions in education and health fields, abuse survivors like myself WILL continue to suffer.
Move the Religious Orders, and the bishops who covered up abuses, away from vulnerable communities is the only logical solution. The protection of vulnerable communities (the young and the sick) must be paramount and the Church has shown itself to be more likely to protect itself than to protect children or sick people.
Well, I, like most Catholic intellectuals (can’t believe I just called myself that…), think EVERY Bishop instated pre-2003 should be forced to resign as a statement of seriousness of intent…
In education & hospitals; I personally think it’s a wildly different issue.
PS Andrew, I had no idea you were an abuse survivor.
Please don’t think for a moment that I’ve ever downplayed the seriousness of the crimes perpetrated.
None of us have.
“I’m almost certain you knew & chose to ignore, that every person with an agenda contrary to the Catholic Church use the abuse crisis &, therefore, the suffering of the abuse survivors’ as a pretext to further their agenda.”
Eh? I thought you came on here condemning stereotypes.
Pure Rubbish – an error in every paragraph.
Identify the errors then.
ohhhh i could i won’t bother, the mood is that if you are Catholic you are wrong!!!!!!
and by the way i will be staying on and practising my fath in a sincere and honest way. As a person i tend to focus on heroic natures of the Church saints instead of the evil of its sinners.
If you can’t identify the errors then maybe they just don’t exist and you are attempting to obfuscate the truth?
If there are outright errors in the article , in every paragraph no less, I challenge you to identify & state three. Just three. Go on. According to you there are a lot more…
Moods trump facts. Enjoy your faith.
ok for Ruaidhri
Error 1
“In Ireland, the Catholic church has done disproportionate damage; it’s fostered a fearful, patriarchal society which doesn’t prize intellectualism, new ideas, or collective empathy”
The Catholic Church provided an education system when the state could not or would not do so. From this education system came world achievers in business,sport and arts. The celtic tiger with its intellectualism, and new ideas didn’t just educate itself now did it.
Error 2
“It muscled in when the new state was born, and ensured that her laws would echo its ancient dogma as much as possible.”
Among other serices The Church provided when the state was born was health service when the state couldn’t. Some would argue it provived a much more caring and better service than the HSE ever has.
Error 3
“A cabal of withered men, presiding over immense wealth, while children starve in Somalia?”
The Vatican alone gave euro55 million ($79.9 million), to charity last year. if i dropped you in somolia right now, you would meet Christian Charites, the majority of which are Catholic. In fact name your natural disaster area and you will find a catholic charity there.
“You can choose to remain part of a criminal organisation … or you can choose not to.”
It simply isn’t a criminal organisation, any reasonable person can see that it does more good than harm unless you are part of an angry online church bashing mob who wants nothing to do with the rounded truth
You see Jimmy, the point is that you ARE wrong. And your refusal to do anymore than just call this article rubbish really doesn’t help your argument.
Maybe you should go pray to your imaginary god for a bit of help next time you decide to comment on something you don’t understand.
ya fabio cause you have the monolopy on intelligence and understanding………gosh i wish i was as cool as you
Well thanks for at least going through some of the points Jimmy – it shows that you were paying attention. It is a little bit more engaging than your previous “ohhhh I couldn’t be bothered” statement.
As for your pointing out of the supposed errors in this article I would have to take exception. On your first two points you have failed to address the points made in the article. You have simply pointed out that the Catholic Church has been heavily involved in education and health in this country since the founding of our state. We know this – this is how they managed to get in to such positions of power that they could cause so much damage in the first place.
On your point about charity donations – the Vatican is worth about €10 billion – €55 million in total to charity work doesn’t seem like a particularly massive effort from an organisation which purports to be in existence for the good of humanity. Bill Gates has given $28 billion to charities – maybe we should start praying to him instead.
And thanks for confirming that I am “cool” – I’ve always suspected it was true but it’s nice to get the support.
Fabio
your reply is why i made the i couldn’t be bothered statement in the first place.
You agree that the Catholic Church has been heavily involved in education and health in this country since the founding of our state. You state “We know this” and i agree with you that they had too much power. What you cannot seem to grasp is that the majority of Irish people from the foundation of the state have been educated by the Church. The vast vast majority of those people did not suffer abuse. Same with the health service, A Huge section of the health service was delievered by the church and serverd the majority very well. if we didn’t have them for the first 60-80 years of the state, what would we have done.
On your point about charity donations – i don’t know where you got the idea the Vatican is worth about €10 billion but if it is a lot of its assets are used in works of charity to people and places no one cares about. But the figure of €55million is only the vatican figure, the Church as a whole would have donated multiples of that amount, i don’t have a figure but if the church has 1 billion members one can safely say the chartiable contribution of the Church in one year is massive.
Can you at least acknowledge the fact it does some good or is it as i intially suspected no worth my while pointing these things out
As for you being cool, i suspect you are, at least in your own lunchbox……!!!!
Of course the church does good – I don’t think it would have gone on this long if it wasn’t doing something for people.
The point of this article, and I believe being made by many of those who are accused of church bashing, is that it has also had an, at times, insidious hold on this nation and a number of its citizens over the years. Yes they have done much good but that does not excuse the damage that the church has done.
Yes people have been educated by the church, yes they have been cared for by the church – no one is disputing that. That is not the point that was made.
My information on the wealth of the church comes from this article http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,833509,00.html
i think the whole point of the article is summed up in the last line
“You can choose to remain part of a criminal organisation … or you can choose not to.”
This is complete and utter rubbish. Some Church members are criminals – that is obivious, But by calling it a criminal organisation it shows that balanced and fair judgement on this topic is not possible with some people. If if you are to take the writers statement to its logical conclusion i am a criminal because i am part of the Catholic Church, and a part of it i am, as is my wife, my children, my extended family and loads of my friends.
I shall now leave the Angry online mob to be the angry online mob.
At least is shows the “i couldn’t be bothered statement” was actually the correct way to go, next time i am going to follow my own advice
I can see why you find the language of this article inflammatory but the fact is that the church has at the very least been complicit in criminal behaviour by obstructing legal investigations in to abuses and covering up the crimes of its members. Actions which themselves amount to crimes.
i think the key word here is “members”, i have no problem with members of the catholic church being charged in a court of law with ilegal activities. if they are to be found guilty throw the book at them, lock them up in accordance with the law of the land. I will drive the Prison van.
But to say a church of 1 billion members is a criminal organisation, is as i say Rubblish. The Real IRA is a criminal organisation, The UDA is a criminal organisation but to call a church where charity, faith, love and service is at its root a criminal organisation is just trying to look for attention from the mob.
The priests who committed the crimes and the hierarchy who covered up for them are the criminals. I certainly would not term your average church goer as a criminal because of this. I would find it hard to believe that the author would either. The criminality alluded to lies with the organisation itself.
What you state as errors are not in fact errors. They could only be described as errors by someone with an axe to grind. It is true that the Church provided education. But for it’s own aims of converting others and social control. It is also true, a verifiable historical fact, that the Church sought to cozy up to the state at all times. DeValera practically had to get the constitution stamped by Archbishop McQuaid!
Yes the Church does provide some charity. But the sight of the opulence of the Vatican against all the suffering in the world makes people suspicious when they hear the Church talk of charity.
Now even if what you said was true and these were all errors (which they are not, merely facts which you chose to disagree with to better fit your world view) IT WOULD NOT EXCUSE the fact that the Roman Catholic Church and The Vatican, have as an organisation, protected paedophiles and enabled the rape of children in order to protect its reputation.
To deny this, or excuse it, is to deny reality.
@Jimmy
The highest echelons of the church (who could feasibly be labelled as “the organisers”) knowingly attempted to obstruct inquiry in the act and cover-up of abuse by its members and thus thwart justice. This is a crime. Ergo the charge of criminal organisation, although inflammatory, is arguable.
The other ”errors” aren’t errors and you’ve attempted to refute them with complete non sequiturs.
You tried to paint yourself as a man of reason and intelligence but you come across as someone with their head-in-the-sand. And by lumping anyone with an alternate viewpoint to yourself into “angry online mob” is tellingly condescending.
Jimmy – you’re an idiot. I could elaborate but I won’t bother.
@Gavin
Again i think the charge of Criminal organisaton is completely wrong, if crimes are commited charge the people in a court of law, prove their guilt and jail them, its that simple. by the logic of the article i am a criminal by being a part of a “criminal organisation”
I believe the other error are errors. I find Your rejection of my sincere helded view condescending
@ Paul Langian
thanks for that, i find it funny that a person i have never personally met judges my complete make up as a human being by virtue of one view point on one article. In fact its very hard to call someone an idiot without looking like one yourself
Non sequiturs, Jimmy. Smoke and mirrors.
“The Catholic Church provided an education system when the state could not or would not do so. From this education system came world achievers in business,sport and arts. The celtic tiger with its intellectualism, and new ideas didn’t just educate itself now did it.”
While it is true that in the past, the church took on education, this was essential to the propagation of religion, and this policy had little to do with enlightening the masses in business, sport or the arts. However, I digress, because your comment on education has nothing to do with the accusation made. So it remains that “In Ireland, the Catholic church has done disproportionate damage; it’s fostered a fearful, patriarchal society which doesn’t prize intellectualism, new ideas, or collective empathy”
“…The Church provided when the state was born was health service when the state couldn’t. Some would argue it provived a much more caring and better service than the HSE ever has.” To say that the church health services are better than the HSE is to damn with faint praise. Again, however, your comment does nothing to rebut the comment it purports to debunk as an error.
“The Vatican alone gave euro55 million ($79.9 million), to charity last year.”
If the Vatican were to pay adequate compensation to victims of abuse (instead of striking deals with incompetent and fearful governments to have the taxpayer pay), and if it didn’t benefit from tax advantages that leave the rest of us picking up the tab, and if they had paid their way in the past without recourse to publicly passing the begging bowl on pain of embarrassment in church, they wouldn’t have even that paltry sum to give.
“It simply isn’t a criminal organisation, any reasonable person can see that it does more good than harm unless you are part of an angry online church bashing mob…”.
I think you’ll find that the mob you mention contains every decent citizen, outraged at the events outlined in the abuse reports, but the mob is not out to bash the church, but the criminal element therein.
It remains, then, that the article has yet to be debunked with anything but obfuscation, distraction, insults and irrelevancies.
The basis of christianity is the violent act of murdering the founder in an extremely brutal manner.Why this very act is worthy of worshiping eludes me altogether.However,this violent event is called love and celebrated on an almost daily basis.Whenever I enter a church,I am being confronted by a savage image of Christ on a cross.
It shouldn’t come as no surprise therefore that the result is violence and savagery.One only needs to recall the highlights of the church’s history to see my point.
Not only do they celebrate the killing of Jesus but they also drink his blood and eat his flesh.
See Henk, you typify the ignorance of the ranting masses when you openly display the fact that you don’t even understand the basis of Christianity.
Lesson 1 @ Henk: The basis of Christianity is the Resurrection. (1 Corinthians 15:14-17)
Lesson 2 @ Daithi: The Eucharist is the source and summit of the Christian life and yes we eat His flesh and drink His blood. I believe you are referring to the True Presence. If your point is one of information then thank you for informing the masses, if it is intended to ridicule then you offend all Catholics.
I’m simply stating the facts Fergal as you have yourself confirmed….. Thanks for the lesson. Did you drink blood today ?
@Fergal O’Neill:
“you typify the ignorance of the ranting masses”???
You pompous creep.
Ignorance is bliss, read the gospels all will be revealed.
“Ignorance is bliss” states man who believes in the afterlife
Daithi typifies the ignorance of the ranting masses, but you, Gavin, personify it.
Oops I meant to say Henk but you’re not too far off yourself Daithi. What is it to you when, where or how I receive Holy Communion?????
As I suffer from long term memory loss its great that you can so emphatically confirm my understanding Fergal. However your reply’s are beginning to sound a little anemic. Perhaps you need a recharge at your local(church) tomorrow morning. For my own part I get most of my my iron from stout. In the absence of a sacrificial victim you could try it. Don’t over do it though, that would be a sin.
From someone such as yourself, Fergal, who has dutifully swallowed every last drop of religious dogma they’ve ever been spoonfed to the point where even their avatar is an image of the pope, I can only take your comments as a compliment.
Now get that head back in the sand tout de suite lest some Damascene flash of reason open your eyes and cause you to reappraise your entire belief system. Chop chop.
Sorry for the delay in replying Fergal, I was out strimming the garden. The reason I ask if you have drunk blood today is just pure curiosity, it gives me a better understanding of where you are coming from. So have you ?
Thank you for the lesson,Fergal.Seriously,without a shred of irony.Your reply got me thinking again and must say that resurrection leads us into interesting territory and questions.Mostly questions of,resurrection of who,why,what does it mean in christian faith,is this universal or are there other interpretations.I am truly sorry if my post looked like catholic-bashing.Not my intention at all.My curiosity has me pondering the paradox of violence and the teachings of the church for quite a while.My initial point got lost entirely.I meant to draw attention to the fact that the imagery that is being used in the christian churches is one of suffering,pain,cruelty,hardship,murder as evidenced by,e.g. Maria in a grotto,stations outside of many churches and crucifixes.In my ignorance,I wondered might these be related.When focusing so strongly on violence,it may very well be that it is exactly that ,what is brought to fruition?A bit like when driving,you focus on NOT hitting the wall and you know what happens.BANG!..I cannot remember resurrection imagery in whatever form or shape being used in the church..So,please,remove some of my ignorance.
Really excellent writing, the only way forward for all of us, believers or not, is to stop the hypocrisy that runs through most religions and especially the Catholic church, but keep the things that help us build a better world for everyone.
@Paul Moloney, I identified myself as a mother of teens to indicate a rough idea of my agegroup, I am so very sorry if you found that offensive, it was not ontended.
Also the reaction to my simple comment
amuses me…sorry I forgot it’s open season on Catholics
Apology accepted. Duck season isn’t far off though, sit tight.
Or is Wabbit season next?
“Open season on Catholics”
That’s the standard response of anyone defending the Vatican in this. I’ve yet to see anyone upset at the Vatican’s handling of abuse declare it. I suppose the seige mentality helps in defending the indefensible.
Doesn’t _really_ narrow down your age, does it? Mother of tweens/teenagers could be anything from 31 to late 50s. I didn’t find it “offensive”, merely a lame attempt to win an argument based on your fecundity rather than offering any counter-argument.
So the devoutly Catholic Enda Kenny has declared open season on Catholics, has he?
P.
‘ open season on Catholics’
I was waiting for that. It is amazing how defenders of the cover up of child rape believe pointing out the immorality of the Vatican’s actions is somehow tantamount to persecution.
Pointing out that the abuse of children is bad is not religious persecution. Pointing out that cover up of that abuse to protect the reputation of the church and by so doing allowing further abuse to occur is not persecution.
Unless you truly believe religious freedom includes the freedom to cover up crimes, then none of this is persecution.
I think Lisa’s article wouldn’t particularly be representative of the so-called “pick n choose” Catholics. For a start, there are many who haven’t learnt anything about religion since their primary school days- I, for one, haven’t heard too many sermons that leave me shaking in my boots and fearful of eternal damnation. That sort of Catholicism is long gone. If anything, I’d love a bit of pulpit thumping- priest training mustn’t focus too much on public speaking! All this bland love, life and peace can be a bit uninspiring. If people seem a little lax in their active participation, it’s more about a lack of knowledge, not a lack of interest.
The people who Lisa might see as the lazy or careless Catholics are often pretty dedicated when it comes to preparing their children for the sacraments and are not totally taken up with impressing the neighbours or organising the bouncy castle. Given half a chance, men and women are more than happy to take up leading roles in the Church community. My local priest is certainly not beating of opponents in a bid to hold on to all that ” power.”
As for all those “scary” Holy Joes- ah, come on, that is a little bit of a caricature. I suppose, we’ll have to allow for a bit of artistic licence, but I don’t think the average old granny is going to terrify anyone as she sits in the church saying her rosary. Is that a bit ageist- not as bad as the description of the “withered” men in the Vatican, I suppose?
My main gripe with this article is that it seems to describe a Catholicism that I really don’t see in evidence. It’s also trying too hard to elicit some sort of shocked or outraged reaction. Maybe its main weakness is to do with Lisa’s admission that she doesn’t know a single devout rigid Catholic. Actually, I don’t think I know too many “rigid” people of any persuasion, but if I was going to expound on the problems within any religion, I might try to at least talk to a few of those rare creatures that I’d be attempting to analyse. That’s if they weren’t too wide-eyed and scary.
Religion was created by the few to control the masses.The Bible is the biggest selling work of fiction ever. And the personal god mentioned in all religious teachings is as real as father Christmas.Even the Story of the birth of Jesus was stolen from Vedic scriptures on the birth of Krishna.
Are you saying that Santy ain’t real?
Anti Matter
God must be out of town
I prayed to Him to-day
He has not answered
So where could he be.
He is all over the place
They told me
You will see him
Here and There
Yet, I can’t find him anywhere.
He was in my mother’s bedroom
In the picture over her bed
His shiny glassy eyes
Had followed me everywhere.
I have often searched for Him
And I have never found a trace
But in my mother’s bedroom
He was always in my face.
I searched all over the country side
Was that him stirring in the grass?
Then I looked up upon the mountaintop
And saw an image there
Could that be him.
The grass shivered beneath my feet
A squirrel jumped from its blades
And the sun danced on the mountaintop
Erasing the image I had seen
So that cannot be him.
As I wandered home
I knew he must be there
I will look for him
In Santa’s hiding place
Up in the chimney space.
I looked behind the chimney breast
And there dark matter had come to rest
God’s particle had fallen from the sky
I saw it with my own very eye
Now I know He is always here
Not like that Santa
Who only comes once a year.
The church was involved in kidnapping(babies) and people trafficking in Australia, Ireland and probably elsewhere, ask any girl who had her baby taken away from her to be sold to rich Americans while she was kept in slavery in the laundries.
@The Total Strangers Who Have Passed Personal & Insulting Comments To Me: You may wonder why I went off topic so dramatically, it was to demonstrate how a man made such a crushing judgement on someone based on this knowledge-: (1) Woman, (2) Aged 34-54 (3) Catholic (4) Mom!! On this information he feels sorry for my children, that is just amazing and reminds me of how the whipped up frenzy of anti-Catholicism is truly working in it’s intent. Should my children be removed from me based on this information-perhaps to be placed in the care of one of the HSE unvetted families? Or into one of the families where allegations of abuse have already been made and ignored? (this is happening NOW mind you..where’s the rage calling for the disbandonment of the HSE? I can fine none) As another poster pointed out I chose not to go point by point through the article(which could so easily be done as it is full of holes) as there are none so deaf as those who will not hear and I would have simply been letting myself open for even more insults and hatred sent my way-what fool would do that?? To the poster who attacked my sick child: for not even one second did I wish my child away or blame God. God has equipped mankind with intellect which had led to an amazing medical system in which my precious baby has been treated with nothing but love and dignity. You know what? Give me the children’s hospital any day over forums like this filled with hatred, bitterness and irrational insults, rather Children’s hospitals are hidden havens of nothing but love, selfness and kindness where it is only the rare cot which doesn’t have a religious item placed by parents for whom the reality of a loving father God who watches over us all is the greatest comfort. Sick babies aren’t a problem-they are an antidote to the caustic, sharp edged tone the western world has embraced in it’s race to the bottom. When my baby was diagnosed with a rare condition she sent a ripple of absolute and unconditional love across the world via family, friends and the Internet and she has enhanced people’s lives, including total strangers. How many people can say they have had that affect on the world? Not too many on this forum anyway.to the person who thinks SHIT is material for confession…LOL!!! And finally: ‘aka TROLL’ ??? That’s Random…
@Jennifer Kehoe. Babies/Children were snatched from their mothers on flimsier grounds – the grounds being she was unwed, or in a relationship with a man whom she wasn’t married to, or she got caught on the wrong side of a Catholic agency, or one of the Institutions needed more slave labour for their machines. The babies were then sold on to rich Catholics. A nice little earner for the Sisters of Mercy – to name just one religious order known to the Ryan Report. Can’t wait for the report on the Magdalene Asylum mass grave where 22 bodies of women (out of 155) appeared out of nowhere – some of the body parts were still encased in plaster of paris … one body was headless; the headless body mightn’t be much of a mystery as decomposition apparently sets in quickly on the heads of malnournished corpses.
My own period in a hospital as a child wasn’t too bad. Because I was transferred from an Industrial School I was kept away from the general population of the hospital – which was (and still is a Children’s Hospital) – after all the nuns wouldn’t want it getting about that they had amongst their number a particularly psychotic nun who liked nothing better than pushing children’s hands into open fires; but I digress; Every other day in that hospital a nun used to visit me and read books and teach me songs – which was a nice, kind thing to do. I’ve been able to trace her despite decades of searching. On the days she wasn’t there I used to climb up onto the windowsill and look at the lime pit where the body parts were buried … the dusting of the amputated legs and feet is not a job I’d like to do ….
There’s a difference between valiantly defending the gospel of Jesus Christ and vaingloriously defending an Institution whose corruption has being laid bare for all to see – not just here in Ireland but worldwide.
This article is called ‘having a field day’. The only problem is there are too many Bird O’Donnells in here shouting “You’re the Bull, You’re the Bull, You’re the Bull…..
Nice analogy. But I don’t believe you when you say that’s the only problem you have with it. I’m pretty sure a swish of your soutane-smothered conscience could dig up a bit more dogmatic doggerel to attempt to beat the blogger with. The floor is yours. Astound us.
Thank you for the floor, Mr Speaker…………..just allow me to lie down on it now so that I will be able to communicate with you at your level.
I like it……………you learned a new word from Enda………….who learned a new word from Tony…………..who learned……………well I think you get the picture.
As I said it’s your field day so go ahead and let all the arrogance, ignorance and ‘Bird’y simplicity fill the page.
Well that’s me told! You still haven’t enlightened us to any other issues you have with the article though. Still, it’s mildly amusing to be accused of arrogance and ignorance from a catholic apologist. Get off the floor, man. Think. Come into the light.
*troll applause*
I’m blushing, here
I meant Fergal, Gavin. Textbook trollism.
Ahaa, gotcha now
I’m pretty happy where I am. These ‘leaders’ are ‘humans’ and ‘people’ who are not perfect. Just forget about the church for a second and lets concentrate on abuse of children for a second because it is a problem in this country and not just perpetrated by clergy members but by teachers and doctors. A lot of people, whether they are religious leaders, mothers, fathers, government find it had to face up to abuse. It is so much easier to turn a blind eye because it something so horrific to imagine. From a psychological point of view its a ‘defensive mechanism’. Like when woman is raped. Some of would like to say ‘oh well she shouldn’t have worn what she did or been at that dangerous place’, because in our head we rationalise it that it can’t happen to us if we don’t dress a certain way or avoid dangerous places. Fact is rape is power and not about sex. I have counselled children and adult survivors of rape who’s own parents denied molestation by teachers or the molestation of a brother to 2 of his sisters. They didn’t want to face up to it. Its unfortunetly the human condition and it certainly doesn’t make it right but turning away from Catholicism is certainly not going to stop child abuse in society. Case in point is non-Christian countries in Africa with extremely high rates or rape and child abuse. Like South Africa where it occurs every 27 seconds.
Religion is a personal choice and I I agree with one point Lisa makes “So long as you’re not using your beliefs to frighten, or bully others, or lay claim to the rights they are entitled to alongside you. ” And this is regarding both sides because you are welcome to criticise the church but not make it personal and bully those who still choose to be Catholic by saying the people who CHOSE to believe are a bunch of nuts because that is out freedom of choice.
Monica there are a number of things I don’t agree with you here on -actually, I’m not entirely sure what your first point really is. Teachers, doctors and any other professions from which child abusers may happen to come, are not defended by their professional organisations as priests have been.
I would also heavily call in to doubt your figures on rape in non-Christian African nations. “Like South Africa where it occurs every 27 seconds”… South Africa was 79.7% Christian at the last census.
Sorry, I forgot to cite the source of my information https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sf.html
Just last week a caretaker at a school was sentenced to jail for repeated raping boys over many years. The school where he was employed was aware that he was a sex offender. He was protected wasn’t he? I don’t see any public outcry against schools and education overall. And with regards to professionals, many times it isn’t reported and when it is others doctors are brought forward to defend co-workers. The logical reasoning of saying one should stop believing in their faith because of some men (a minority of priests I might add) doesn’t make sense. When a teacher rapes a child we don’t logically conclude that we must stop taking our children to school and tell everyone to stop believing in education. When a doctor rapes a person we don’t say stop going to doctors and don’t trust in medicine. Cover-ups happen all the time and there are many teachers/doctors who shouldn’t be practicing but because they are in a position of power they can get away with it. Again the issue is child abuse not the church or religion. Why on earth did the department of education who are also very responsible for what happened not being attacked? The Independent even report how Gardai and government played their role in ensuring women remained in laundries. Yet again we think government officials are untouchable.
I was wrong to include South Africa as a non-Christian country but it certain is a minority when it comes to Catholicism. And rapes do occur ever 27 seconds in South Africa. Just google that and you’ll see. And these raped are not committed by religious people. And the governement said to the citizens who complained that nothing was being done, that they should leave the country.
Monica, your argument reminds me of those instances when a schoolboy is brought whimpering in front of the headmaster and he blurts “It wasn’t just me, Sur! He done it too!”. It’s not just you though, apologist eejits like David Quinn and Breda O’Brien are at the same crack, as if the church’s shame will be diluted if other bodies can share the culpability. Doesn’t wash with me, Monica.
Give me an example where a Doctor or a Teacher abused children, had this covered up by the Dept of Health / Education, and was then shunted from Parish to Parish to carry on abusing. Then go and find a hundred more examples. And a hundred more etc.
Your South Africa tangent is baffling though. What is your point exactly – that it’s not just religious people who rape? Who said it was? And on a side note, how do you know that these thousands of rapists aren’t religious?
@ Monica – The physical and sexual abuse of children by clergy as outlined in the Ferns, Ryan, Murphy and Cloyne reports is horrendous; but what links all these reports is the actions of the organisation to which the abusers were from. This organisation protected the abusers – in many instances the abuse victims were punished – this organisation transferred abusers to new parishes and new dioceses thereby facilitating further abuse.
That caretaker was booted out of a seminary which trained clergy!
Not everyone thinks that because an organisation is a power in the land therefore it is untouchable. If everyone thought that you would never have heard of Christina Buckley, Paddy Doyle, Mannix Flynn, Peter Tyrrell. And there’s the thousands of people in Ireland, England, Australia, Canada, and the US who gave their testimony to the Child Abuse Commission – their story is in the Ryan Report.
For too long devout Catholics in Ireland were silent in the face of child abuse by clergy – silent and afraid because of the power the Church wielded – and the Church was unafraid to use it’s power when it’s position and/or status was threatened. It’s up to Catholics to reform the Church before the Church is consigned to the dustbin of history ,,, along with the Vikings, the Normans, Cromwell …
@ Andrew I totally agree that the leaders should be criticised for what they’ve done. But what I’m offend by is how I those who remain religious are seen as idiots and bullied on this feed. There a personal comments made on this feed which aren’t aimed at the abuse of the leaders or priests. And because I still keep my faith faith and go to church I’m seen a defending the crimes which is certainly not the case. Religion is not the men of the church as I stated earlier. As u stated the ‘organisation’ have committed the crimes. Doesn’t mean I lose my faith in God. I you see my earlier comment I said I was disgusted by the behaviour.
That guy who was sentenced was the second sentence he had. The first one he was allowed to continue working at the school, after he was put in the sex offenders list.
There should be dialogue and debate but it should never involved intimidation, disrespect and hatred which unfortunately a lot of people are doing on here. Comments are nit even being aimed t the child abusers but personal comments are being made in an attempt to bully people which is just pathetic and sad.
The left wing in Ireland are having a field day. Catholic bashing seems to be the the theme at the moment. Yes the Church should come clean and be accountable for these evil deeds by a very small number of priests and nuns,no more cover ups by Bishops remember the words of Christ ,warning not to hurt on children. Yet if some of these politicians in the south had their way they would legalise the murder of unborn children while attacking the Catholic church who thank God still believe in the sacredness of All life.
St Francis of Assisi is alive and well and surfing the internet! Hurrah!
Quick! Change the subject to abortion!
“The left wing in Ireland are having a field day. ”
Like Enda Kenny. That mad communist Muslim Freemason.
P.
“Catholic bashing seems to be the the theme at the moment. ”
Telling the Church and the Vatican that they can no longer allow their priests to rape children and then cover up that rape is Catholic Bashing?
It really is amazing how Catholics are unable to take even the slightest bit of criticism, even when it concerns basic ethical concepts like not raping children anymore.
I think it’s all the talk of martyrs. Gives the Ultra Catholics on here the idea that any criticism, no matter how valid, is a form of persecution.
I don’t actually think there is what one can call a massive ‘left wing’ so to speak in Ireland and I’m not sure there are enough of them to quite have a field day. FG the ruling party are actually more of a conservative, traditional center right leaning party and to hear it’s leader Mr Kenny come out with the statement he did last week was actually very surprising and I think it showed the seriousness of the situation and how much the Catholic Church’s hierarchy has become alienated from its laymen and women.
You know saying someone isn’t allowed to believe in a religion is taking their freedom away. Let’s just all continue to think narrow mildly and think all catholic are bad, all Irish are drunks, all Muslims are terrorists etc etc what hatred and ignorance.
Where has it been said that no-one is allowed to believe in religion?
Quite right Monica, it is wrong to deny anyone their beliefs. And to deny non-catholics a catholic-free daily life is also a denial of freedom. This is why church and state must separate. Completely amd permanently.
there is a difference between denying someone their right to practice their religion and having an the open discussion and rightful critic of the practices of the leaders of a religious institution. If someone feels offended by this criticism of the leaders of an organization they consider themselves to be a part of then perhaps the time has come for them to question their beliefs which they hold so strongly and see if that organization still represents them.
Lisa, I am a Catholic (I only say this since you know so few of us) and I apologise to everyone else for the following rant bit I really disagree with you. I am a Catholic who doesn’t go around shouting about being a Catholic (except this time) since I too believe that people should be allowed to believe what they want when it comes to their religion, as long as it doesn’t stop or hinder other people and their religious thoughts.
I disagree with the central idea of your article; I feel that it is wrong to confuse the hierarchical church (the Vatican, the bishops and all the way down) with the religious church which includes the ideas, the followers and the priests and bishops, but without all the trappings of money, property and power. It is important when thinking about all of the cover ups of child abuse that have taken place to remember that there would have been much less covering up down and far more protecting of children if there where none of these material things – money, property, power – connected with the church. However, the church is not only about these material things and therefore it is really unfair to try and force your religious views on devout Catholics who you seem to think are all a bunch of nutters.
The reason for child abuse is not the religious church, rather it is a product of society as a whole. This society includes the church but let’s be honest here about who society is: it is us. The Vatican really has to deal with their responsibility (indeed I would be happy if, while they are at it, they started sharing out their wealth as you suggest) but we also have to come to terms with all the child abuse and covering up of child abuse that our society has and is nurturing all by itself, without the Vatican’s help. That is why I am really proud of the speech Enda Kenny made and also really happy about the laws being brought in by Alan Shatter, since they show that the government realizes that to protect the children of Ireland you don’t only have to protect them from the perverted man or woman who happens to be a priest or a nun but also from the parents, uncles, aunts, teachers, and everyone else that has the opportunity to destroy a child’s life. And that is why it has to be mandatory that the social structures that protect these child abusers – even when a mother is covering up for the abuse of her daughter by her perverted husband – be forced to report the abuse.
Deny, deny, deny…..pretend it never happen….sure it will all go away soon.
Will it heck….not while i’ve got breath in my body….my childrens got breath in their bodies,… my grandchildren got breath in their bodies and so on.
Justice will be seen to be done,… starting with the pope, the top man in charge of the cover up, now a proven fact.
My advice to all the good clergy is get out now and find another way to do your good work, where you will get all the support you want and not be let down like the vatican has let you down
If the church was so good with education, then why did’nt I get an education.
I was there 24/7 in Ferryhouse.
I was taken out of school age 12yrs to work on the farm from 5.30am ti’ll late at night, average 16 hrs a day and had to work most days on an empty stomach.
Food was a very rare product.
Also took 1 or more beatings a day while being forced to work.
And as far as the church being the providers of health, how come I almost die aged 11yrs through lack of health care
Agree 100% with Andrew Brennan
Why not consider the Church of Ireland? Protestantism holds that man has direct communion with God via Jesus and not through a hierarchical structure of men who are set up as spiritually different to the lay person.
Martin Luther in 16C had become fed up with how the RC church was essentially ripping off the people and controlling them.
@Andrew Brennan, I have been reading your posts on this article and my eyes were brimming over when I read of your experience as a child and how a woman’s kindness to you in hospital in the simple act of reading stories to you sticks with you till this day…a simple experience which every child should be able to take for granted. Do not think for a single minute that ordinary believing Catholics either somehow think that to mistreat children in any way has justification or that we are so hard hearted as to not really care. My heart is broken when i think of how lonely and abandoned children like you must have felt and to look at my own children and their innocent little ways and think that it was children just like these who had such horrible experiences and who must have been so terrified to wake up in the morning…it is truly beyond horror!
I read a piece about a girl who had experienced all sorts of mistreatment as a child and young adult and believed and felt she was used, trampled on and of no worth as that is what had been drummed into her year in year out…the person she was telling took our a $20 note and asked would she like it, ‘Yes’ she answered. He crumpled it in his fist and then asked did she still want it ‘of course’ she replied…he went on to throw the note on the gutter and trampled on it, he picked up the note covered in mud and grime and asked the girl did she still want it…’yes I do’ she said ‘ it still has the same value’. It was the start of her recovery in seeing that her value as a person of great worth and dignity was on no way dependent on how she had been treated by others who had failed to see a child so beautifully made and loved by God. Don’t give up on God, for He is the one who made you the unbelievable treasure you are. Please take this note to be in no way intended to be patronising, condescending or have any other agenda but to let you see that people do actually care and have empathy for what happened in Ireland and I am so very very sorry it happened to you. Jennifer
The Catholic Church is all the members of the church , not just the clergy, or the monsters that abused children. Our church is full at Mass every Sunday – full of ordinary Irish people – carpenters, office workers, unemployed people, mothers, fathers, grannies, children – we are the church and we must move it forward. We have the right to do that as a church.
I don’t resent people who are anti-Catholic until it is time to tell their eight year old they can’t make their First Communion or observe other ‘traditions’ that Lisa mentions. There is an intellectual dishonesty in rejecting Catolicism but choosing to be ‘hatched, matched and despatched’ in the Catholic church, however I think we should welcome all who want to participate in our church.
Interesting. Can you expand on ‘hatched, matched and despatched’
I’m a bit confused Barry at your assumption that a child is catholic, when in reality its the parents who are. The child is not informed enough to be any religion, and when they are, who is going to stop them from participating in religious rituals?
@ Gavin – ‘Hatched, matched and despatched’ is a rather trite reference to non-practicing Catholics choosing to participate in Catholic ‘Christenings, marriages and funerals’ within the Catholic church.
@ Aileen – sorry was not clear there – I meant that many principled non-practicing Catholics choose to participate in the Catholic church when their eldest child’s first communion age approaches. Its either sticking to the principle or explaining to an eight year old that they cant do what all their friendsare doing.
My further suggestion is that many of the anti-Catholic posters on here probably will choose / have chosen to particiapte in the Catholic Church when these occasions come up in their lives. ( I dont mean just attend weddings , I mean for example getting married in the church). That is intellectually dishonest.
Thats a fair point Aileen, but dont parents make all kinds of decisions for their kids that they may reject in the future. How many people shove a man-u or liverpool shirts on their year olds just because its daddies team or putting pretty pink dresses on girls who may hate being girly girls when they grow up. What are practicing catholic to do, leave the kids at home when they go to mass.
In Ireland its difficult to celebrate the milestones in life without recourse to the church, an unbeliever would be very isolated if they refused to attend weddings, christenings, funerals because it involved religion, so its just practical to go to these events, communions and confirmations leave parents at the mercy of pester power, the majority of primary schools are catholic and the logistics for many, mean the nondenominational schools are not an option, so rather than disappoint their children the parents allow them to share in the ritual, nothing there to make me despise them. as for leaving them home alone while attending mass, well that would be irresponsible, but assuming that your child should have the same belief system as you is arrogant, if as a parent you think a spiritual aspect is important for their future self why not give them equal access to all religions or get a childminder ,and give them access to none, if your chosen faith is the right one, cant you trust yourself that you have raised your child to make this decision for themselves, As a state and as individuals we have for a long time neglected to think about the consequences of our actions, and have ended up with a religious organisation that has too much overt and covert control of our hearts and minds, The good that the catholic church has done in Ireland,and that many have posted on here , should be our responsibility not theirs,Maybe we are growing up as a nation at last, as the events of the past week seem to imply.
@Jennifer Kehoe: There were a few members of the Religious Orders who intervened – one nun put her small body between me and a priest who was boxing me up and down the chapel – and stopped that abuse. The lesson there is: that if a corrupt authority is challenged, the abuse can be lessened, even stopped. If enough people had been like that small little nun ….. how much misery would have been prevented?
As it was it seemed to me that only the children were resisting – along with people like that nun – while society averted it’s gaze. Maybe things are changing now with society challenging and questioning authorities, both secular and religious, and it’s up to those authorities to respond with honesty and transparency. Because the light has been shone onto the dark and hidden Ireland – the era of ‘due deference’ is over – and scrutiny is going to continue … I hope.
I hope so too-it really is a terrible thing to have happened. Every child should be able to look at every adult as someone who holds no danger for them and in whose company they will be safe and protected. I wish you all the best.
Say what you like about the Catholic church, they made the laundries run on time.
Yeah better clean clothes than a clean conscience. !:-)
A quick question,how many of the people who left comments here, have been married in church,have your kids going to catholic schools,have your kids being taught religion,have had your kids recieve the first holy communion/confirmation,have had your kids baptized,with all the pledges of alliagance that entails on your behalf for all those actions
@Kevin – Count me out of that list Kevin – the last time I was in a church was March 1967. It was at the funeral mass of my chum who died in Ferryhouse in Clonmel due to the horrendous conditions he was forced to live in. Ferryhouse was an Industrial School known to the Ryan Report, it was owned and managed by a Catholic Religious Order. Twelve years after my chum’s death all of the boys in Ferryhouse were taken to see pope John Paul II say mass … all boys except for one. While his friends were at that papal mass he was being raped by a member of a Religious Order known to the Ryan Report. It took another 20 years to have that guy jailed … but the Religious Order that protected him is still in existence and it’s assets are still intact.
Co-habiting for 12 years, two daughters in school – neither baptised, elder going into communion year but won’t be making it along with 7 of her classmates – she’s fine with it, once she’d been told from day one. Go look for hypocrisy elsewhere Kevin.
There’s no choice for most but catholic schools, as for catholic religious teachings there mandatory unless you can prove you belong to another religion. That means for most they’ve no choice, just how you catholics like it. You had no choice and it pains you.
No marriage or kids, but if either happens, the ideal situation will not involve a Catholic church.
Sadly Kevin, there are many like that, all talk and no follow through. I’m an anti-theist/atheist/heaten/whatever suits the person facing me and I’ve often said that I have more respect for someone who walks the walk than those who dip their toes once the aul church event comes knocking.
However, I had no choice in baptism, no choice in communion and was persuaded by teachers to go through with it lest I stand out and be bullied when my confirmation was taking place… it faith was kept outside of schools I’d have had more of a chance, and two out of three ain’t bad. Over my dead body will my funeral be a religious affair, I’m engaged and my future wife has been told in no uncertain terms that if she want the fairytale church wedding then she’s said yes to the wrong man, and as for babtising our children? well (very) sadly it’s not my decision alone so I will not be attending on principle.
Andrew… if this is the person i’m thinking of …he never served his sentence
@ Mick. I think you’re right. These guys still have the ear (and the access) to the power.brokers.
Sorry Andrew but not sure how your reply relates to the message I wrote.
I am just pointing out that I have a neighbour who I think is a devout catholic (or a Holy Joe), and she is not scary, she is not wide eyed, and she is not chin cocked.
From reading the article I feel that there are some points made that are just not true, and to say that devout catholics are scary is one of the errors. Some may be scary, but certainly not all of them, and for the author to state this almost as fact is simply not true. I suppose some non-catholic or non religious may be scared of any Holy Joe of any religion, but that depends on the individual and it is wrong to make sweeping statements.
@mick k – Thanks for the reply. I think firstly we’d have to agree what a ‘Holy Joe’ is. Here’s a sample of what ‘Holy Joes’ are and what they HAVE done to children – aged between 4 years and 10 years.
Religion in the Institutions was used to instill fear into the children. Religion was pervasive in those places. Many statues, many pictures with night lights; indeed the cleaning and polishing of statues was a serious, serious job. If you left a smidgen of dust on one you were battered – and woe betide the child that ‘accidentally’ chipped a toenail or a finger-tip on any of the statues. It’s arguably (OK, maybe not) that if the children happened to have been statues they’d have been treated better.
Then there was the reciting of the rosary on rising every morning on our knees. Followed by mass in the chapel. Then it was on to breakfast of a skinner (slice of bread with dripping) and tea, but before we could eat we had to recite the Grace Before Meals, and when we were finished we had to recite the Grace After Meals. Then it was over to the Workshops, or the fields. Before work began we had to recite the rosary – with an added prayer for more productivity. Religious produce of some of the institutions included rosary beads, scapulars, handjerchiefs with crosses embroidered onto them) Then there was a break every day at 12noon to 12:45 where we had … wait for it now …. Cathechism – but before we started we recited the angelus! Then back to the workshops to tidy things away. We finished in the Workshops by reciting another rosary. Then it was time for dinner. Before we tucked into our green mash (mashed potatoes with some green vegetable mixed in) we recited the Grace Before Meals and after eating we recited the Grace After Meals. Then it was over to the Workshops or fields or classrooms for work and lessons and we all recited a rosary before and when we were finished. I remember reciting the Angelus on many occasions in the fields during harvest/autumn time. Then it was time for the evening angelus. After that it was time for tea – begun, of course – if you’re still following this – by reciting the Grace Before Meals and ended by reciting the Grace After Meals. Then it was away to bed but first we had recite the rosary while kneeling beside our bed. While asleep extra care was taken that we lay on our backs with our arms crossed over our chests – If a child deviated from sleeping in such a position he was awakened, and (sometimes) slapped. – apparently if we died while asleep in such a position we’d be whisked off to heaven and be in the sight of God, his mother – the virgin Mary and her son Jesus – who was also God!
On Saturdays and Sunday we had all the above plus a Benediction on a Sunday and a Stations of the Cross on the Saturday. On Feast days and holy days we had all the above … plus we had to sing and march around the place with swinging incense yokes (?) . Sometimes the statues were covered in purple cloth and evergreen branches were scattered around the place. When JFK was shot we had three days of all the above and brown bread an butter.
To me, a person who would force a child into the above religious rituals IS a Holy Joe. A person who would object to those rituals above would not be an anti-Catholic or, indeed, anti-Christian – they would be decent and honourable human beings, protective of children and probably of some kind of faith; probably some with religion and others without any religion.
Andrew…. your account of life in the industrial school is100% accurate.
I know cause I was there
If you find out who he is let me know. But if you are talking about it “the universal energy” then I understand the extreme lengths you went to get your point across. I’m not an atheist by the way.
Holy Joes are wide eyed and chin cocked and scary…….My neighbour is a ‘Holy Joe’ and she is a very kind widower who the kids and other neighbours love, she is very helpful with baby sitting and helping us out with anything, she is not scary, she doesn’t think she is superior to us in any way, and she can think for herself (ie doesn’t blindly follow any church teaching as far I can see). Yet she is Catholic and her religion is very important to her.
My point: This one line (‘Holy Joes are wide eyed and chin cocked and scary’) is one example of a lot of rubbish that is in the article above. The churches treatment of many women and children has been terrible, but for a lot of others it has been good.
So that line attributed to Jesus: ‘Suffer little children, and forbid them not to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.’ should really read (for the Holy Joe, of course!): ‘Suffer some Little Children, and beat them, and starve them, and rape them in my name: for of such is the kingdom of heaven ‘ ?
And here was me thinking that Jesus was rebuking his disciples for TURNING AWAY children!
@Jennifer Kehoe (aka troll) – It’s comforting to know that our god could have prevented your child from becoming ill but as we both know, he doesn’t work that way, but it’s comforting to know that he could if he wished since he really, really, really does exist. We both know he exists cos he spends most of his time hating the gays and lesbians and getting angry with teenage boys who spend too much time in the toilet or those Irish (aka lapsed Catholic) who use those protestant contraception things.
And please remember the Christian god is a kind and loving regardless of what the Christian bible says
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