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YESTERDAY WAS THE third and final day of hearings being held by the Oireachtas committee examining how the government should go about legislating for the X Case on abortion.
After two days of medical and legal evidence yesterday was the turn of religious and faith groups as well as advocacy groups to give their opinions on the issue to the Joint Committee on Health and Children.
Representations came from the Irish Catholic Bishops Conference, Church of Ireland, Presbyterian Church of Ireland, Methodist Church of Ireland, Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland and Atheist Ireland in the morning.
Before lunchtime we heard from the Pro-Life Campaign, Youth Defence, Family & Life, and the Iona Institute. Then in the afternoon we heard evidence from Choice Ireland, the National Women’s Council of Ireland and Action on X.
As we have done with every hearing so far we liveblogged evidence as it was heard but for a slightly more succinct summary of the evidence, here are the 10 most interesting moments from Thursday’s hearings.
1. There remains a view that the government does not need to legislate for X
Professor William Binchy touched on it on Wednesday but the view that the government does not need to legislate for the X Case – even though it has committed to doing so – was expressed more widely during yesterday’s hearings.
Dr Christopher Jones, the Catholic Bishop of Elphin, said that “appropriate guidelines, which continue to exclude the direct and intentional killing of the unborn or a referendum to overturn the X case judgement” should be explored by the government.
Appearing later in the day Dr Eoghan de Faoite, a medical doctor and member of Youth Defence, said that medical guidelines already in existence are sufficient and the medical evidence has borne that out.
2. Most religious groups favour X legislation
Except for the Catholic Church and the Islamic Cultural Centre, all of the religious groups who appeared yesterday expressed the view that legislation for the X Case should be implemented in full.
In the case of the Church of Ireland, Archbishop Michael Jackson said the current state of affairs is “unfair” to both women and medical professionals and welcomed the government’s decision to legislate.
Heidi Good of the Methodist Church and Trevor Morrow, who was representing the Presbyterian Church, echoed this view with Morrow pointing out that abortion is being practised in Ireland today – otherwise members of the medical profession would not be seeking to protect people.
3. Suicide remains the most contentious issue
The inclusion of suicide as risk to life in legislation for the X Case is proving to be controversial and troublesome to many who have appeared before the committee. Though the government decision is to fully implement the X Case judgement through law and regulations, various groups appearing before the committee have raised the inclusion of suicide as being problematic.
All of the pro-life groups who appeared in the middle session yesterday broadly expressed the view that allowing for abortion on the grounds of the threat of suicide would inevitably lead to a viable foetus being killed through no fault of its own.
In fact, Dr Berry Kiely, from the Pro Life Campaign, expressed the view that abortion is not a remedy for suicide, and furthermore, abortion is associated with an increased risk of suicide. Her colleague Caroline Simons said that the belief of medics was that abortion was never a treatment for suicidality.
Labour’s Aodhan Ó Riordain has consistently made the point during the hearings that the suicide risk needs to be legislated for because of the ruling in the X Case. He noted yesterday that the committee’s sole task is to figure out how best to implement the X ruling in full. He said anyone attending the committee arguing that point was there under false pretences.
4. Some believe we need another referendum
As mentioned, the Catholic Church is of the view that the only way to ultimately address the difficulties posed by the X Case judgement is to have another referendum. Bishop Jones said that the only way to address the issue definitively was a new referendum. He said that the Supreme Court ruling had “reversed totally” the 1983 referendum on recognising the rights of the unborn, the 8th amendment.
David Manley, from the Family & Life group, said that he would like a new referendum to amend the constitution and undo the effect of the X Case while his fellow pro-life advocate Caroline Simons said that the X Case judgement was “faulty” and needed to be addressed by referendum.
5. Abortion beyond the X Case
Heidi Good, from the Methodist Church of Ireland, expressed the belief that while her church was against abortion on demand, termination of pregnancy should be acceptable when the mother’s life is at risk, there is a grave risk of serious injury to physical or mental health, where there is a gross abnormality of the foetus or where there is a pregnancy resulting from rape or incest.
Rabbi Zalman Lent from the Irish Jewish Community largely echoed this view saying that his faith allows abortion in these cases. The belief contrasted with the views of other church representatives but touched on a point that has been raised at certain points in recent days that legislators may need to eventually look beyond the X Case and broaden the availability of abortion beyond the parameters in set down by the Supreme Court.
By contrast, Bishop Jones expressed sadness towards the girls and women who became pregnant as a result of rape but said that the denial of human life was not condonable even in those cases. A view that was echoed by Dr Ali Selim from the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland who said that children born in this “unfortunate situation” are still entitled to life.
6. Separation of church and State
Atheist Ireland’s Michael Nugent (above) perhaps unsurprisingly expressed the belief that the laws of the land should not be determined by the religious beliefs of its citizens. “Our laws should not be based on other people’s religious beliefs,” he told the Committee.
7. The Supreme Court is not infallible
Dr Kiely expressed that view that the highest court in the land is not infallible and speculated that it would have reached a very different conclusion in the X Case if it had heard the same evidence that the committee has heard this week. Patrick Carr from the Family & Life group cited the US Supreme Court’s pro-slavery rulings as one example of the highest courts making flawed decisions.
Later in the day the view of the pro-choice groups was that the Supreme Court ruling needed to be respected, and implemented.
8. Day three was more adversarial than days one and two
Though it must be said that overall these hearings were balanced, respectful, thoughtful, and highly informative there were one or two moments when things threatened to boil over.
Credit must go to Chairman Jerry Buttimer for ensuring calm though that did not prevent him from unexpectedly telling Youth Defence that the manner of their campaigning “needs to be reviewed”. That led to a suggestion that Buttimer had “impugned” the dignity of the hearings. “You turned this at the end into an adversarial encounter,” Dr Sean Ó Domhnaill from the Life Institute told the chair.
Buttimer, to be fair, reiterated his view about campaigning when the pro-choice groups appeared later in the day and that appearance was also noticeable for the content on Choice Ireland’s website being raised, a move which Abigail Rooney (above), from Choice Ireland, said was “juvenile”. A remark which she later apologised for.
9. The ‘chilling factor’
The 1861 Offences Against the Persons Act needs to be repealed in the view of the pro-choice groups because of the creation of a “chilling factor” by its existence and the potential for doctors to go to jail for carrying out abortions.
Ailbhe Smyth from Action on X said that the relevant sections in the Act were “chilling” and “redundant” but unsurprisingly the pro life side disagreed with barrister Maria Steen saying that she and her colleagues believe there to be no legal reality of the prospect of a prosecution brought under the 1861 rules as long as the doctor acts in good faith.
10. The big work starts now
As parliamentary hearings go the last three days have been informative, insightful and no doubt hugely beneficial to preparing a report for the Minister for Health James Reilly as he and the government go about formulating legislation for the X Case.
In the Seanad chamber yesterday Reilly addressed the Committee by noting the considerable work that lies ahead such as determining locations for terminations, the number of doctors involved, the issue of conscientious objection and other issues which will need to be examined.
Buttimer, who has been widely praised for his role as chair, now goes off with the rest of the committee to formulate a report that will inform the drafting of the legislation, a report he expects to complete by the end of the month.
This has undoubtedly been a good piece of parliamentary process but the ultimate proof of its success will be in the kind of legislation that is formulated and how much of it is based on the submissions we’ve heard in recent days.
(All images: Screengrabs via Oireachtas.ie)
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Scientists are incredibly busy all the time working on very important stuff and have no interest in any sort of aggressive grooming techniques or shopping for fashion wear .
Huh? Prof Coleman is the coolest guy you could meet at a conference!! And anyways, we don’t get out all that much so who cares for fashion…keep our minds focused on what’s important!
No offence meant , I have huge respect for these guys . I love the way so many of them look like chilled out hippies.
Graphene: Stronger than steel and harder than diamond.
Harder than diamond? Is this stuff lab made like those artificial diamonds or found naturally?
@ Daniel
It’s lab made, an example of nanotechnology at work. It’s essentially atoms of carbon arranged like Chickenwire, but that arrangement gives it remarkable properties. Imagine it as flat, but as a result it can be rolled into tubes and so on, It’s like a diamond in that it’s composed of carbon, but its structure makes it very different. The applications of Graphene development are huge and potentially world changing.
Unfortunately the funding bodies don’t appear to realise that there are more colleges in Ireland other than TCD and UCD.
There probably wasn’t anyone in the other college that were doing the kinda research the EU were looking for. Funding bodies don’t choose the college, a researcher chooses the research and then seeks funding.
other colleges*
Ciaran, it’s down to who applies to what grants and who can write a project proposal that is half descent and will provide something unique and important for the future! The fact that these proposals are over 100 pages long (for the lower funding out there…)….not a great deal of Irish researchers really want to spend months on end (9am – 12 pm) writing these grants..and those that do are entering into a pool of sharks hoping to come out alive afterwards.
There are about 4000 patents out already. China has most of them. So far !
€1 billion . How many fields would it cultivate and feed starving people , honestly the mind boggles .
Silly point. People don’t starve because of a lack of money, it’s their politics or lack of same. A billion represents a couple of euro per person in the EU per year. What’s spent on cigarettes and drink? In fact it’s less than your designer sunglasses. :)
Yes the mind boggles and without science you wouldn’t be able to make that point. Science = Good for Humanity. So more research means the world benefits more from it.
@ John Doyle .Well you would say that wouldn’t you cause youre in the science field and so am I but I can see it for what it is.
I dont care about technology , My life was simpler in the 80′s with little technology.
Science has also contibuted to the mess we are in as a planet in whole The horrific damage done has been done to the environment ( Oil spills, chemicals released into the ecosystem ) , people ( Medicinal error) and animals all in the name of science. Sellafield is a marvel of science and look at all the people who die in Dundalk from cancer. It’s shocking.
We’ve evolved beyond the point weve should have if the money system does collapse we return to the dark ages.
Bren, you’re life was simpler in the 80’s? Why pick the 80’s why not go for the 1880’s when life expectancy was more like 40 and children died in their millions before the technology called vaccination. I can’t believe that you are “in the science field” in any meaningful sense. Your post is what would be expected from anti-science Luddite who dropped out of school in high infants.
The planet “isn’t in a mess”. Bar the problem of Climate Change, pollution is down in most places. Salmon swim in the Thames. Climate Change could be solved if you anti-nuclear types didn’t oppose the building of new NP stations. An oil spill hardly affects the planet at all, after all oil is a natural substance. It mostly causes economic, short term local pollution and is unsightly. After the recent Gulf spill the damage was relatively little.
Medicinal error? Are you barking mad? Since WWI life expectancy has gone up more than in recorded history. My father got an extra 25 years because of the technology of bypass surgery. People are living full lives today who would have died an agonising death a century ago.
There’s isn’t a shred of evidence anyone in Dundalk died because of any Nuclear activity in Sellafield. That’s a statement you expect from a New Age Hippy with cannabis fried brains. The doctor from Dundalk who claimed that died in a car accident so I’ll give you one point for technology there, although Marie Curie’s (scientist who helped discover radioactivity) husband died after being knocked down by a horse and cart, so maybe I’ll subtract that point again.
How many nurses or gardai is €1 billion?
Oh ffs. Have you any Idea the importance of Graphene research? It is going to be huge. Also, if Irish companies can get patents submitted for this stuff it will pay for a lot more nurses and Gardai than €1 Billion.
Don’t feed trolls.
@barry,no it won’t they would just sell any rights for 3magic beans as with out oil gas gold
@Barry, why don’t you explain to us the importance of this research? I think you’re making it up as you go along…
@Barry, why would you attack a complete stranger like that on the internet? Do people do that? You dont know me, I am but a simple man who doesnt know about graphene research and you seem like you know it all… or are you just full of big talk cos this is the internet? I bet your real name isnt even Barry…
Its used for just about everything. Its a great semiconductor and a conductor, it can be used to tune lasers, sequence DNA, as a light source, it can filter water, create biofuels, its a great themral conductor and its incredible strong.
Hopefully this will lead to the construction of a lightsabre
Never understood why the EU funds all these research programs but the Apples, Microsofts, Intels and the rest of them all come from America. Funny that. Anyone explain?
It’s simple the USA generates the vast majority of the world’s Scientific papers. The Muslims with trillions of dollars from oil contribute nothing. Look at NASA, dozens of billion dollar projects under way and planned. The EUs contribution is sod all in comparison.
The states made leaps and bounds in technology post war because they took all the natzi scientists and gave them new identities to work in Nasa etc. Hiltler did a serious amount of research.
Bren, I’m not aware of “all the Nazi scientists” being given work by the US. The only possible one would be Wernher Von Braun who always claimed he was forced to join the party and took no part in it’s activities. In fact he was arrested and nearly shot for being a communist sympathiser. Germany in the 30′s was probably The leading country for Physics. Many of those Physicists were Jews who fled to Germany to escape the Nazis, including Einstein and many others. Many other German scientists who were not Jewish also left Germany after the Nazis came to power. To this day the US attracts the top scientists in the world because it spends so much on fundamental research. Europe has a long way to go to catch up.
I’m not from the science field but I got a chance to learn a little about graphine at the science gallery a few months ago, amazing material….but very small quantity, I figure even with extra research it will be a long time before any structure is ever made from it??
Could you take moon rock, transform it into graphene and then print with it using one of them 3d printer thingummyjigs?
Well … a little research later:
Graphene is made from graphite (unsurprisingly) and there is graphite on the moon.
Some geezer has built a giant 3d printer of the sort that could be constructed on the moon.
3d Printers can use graphene.
Graphene could be used for constructing buildings.
Buildings made from graphene on the moon. Only a scientific hop skip and jump away.
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