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MINISTER FOR SOCIAL Protection Joan Burton has said that a deal on the promissory note agreement with the former Anglo Irish Bank is crucial to the Government’s ongoing negotiations about a debt write-down.
Speaking after a European Movement Ireland seminar this morning, the Minister said: “Getting a deal in relation to the promissory note is very, very important as, in fact, is looking at the overall bank package”.
But the promissory note is the key element in the current negotiations. We are pushing very strongly for it and the European Union needs a success story as well.
The Minister added that “[The Government has] the commitment of the June council meeting in relation to breaking the link between bank debt and the sovereign [debt].”
“I think we have a very significant amount of understanding and support in relation to assisting Ireland to recover,” she said.
During her address to a host of international guests the Minister confirmed Ireland’s support for the European Union and its benefits to Ireland.
“Let me reiterate our strong commitment to the Union that is based on our shared values [which also] reflects the benefits of membership we have experienced over the past forty years and which have helped transform Ireland economically, politically and socially,” she said.
Burton also stated that the ‘scandalous’ level of unemployment, particularly the among [our] young people, is the pressing issue facing Europe today.
“That is why I have placed such a priority on the Youth Employment Package, including a youth guarantee” she said.
Under the guarantee any young person under 25 would be guaranteed a job, training or educational place within a set number of months after becoming unemployed.
“This week the EU social protection and employment ministers will gather in Dublin to discuss these issues,” she said.
Burton said she was confident that over the term of the EU presidency a successful outcome for Ireland will be achieved.
“Please remember that Europe is not just about bankers”
The Minister’s speech at the event commemorating Ireland’s 40th anniversary in the EU also discussed Ireland’s European presidency, economic governance & stability and agreement on a Multi-annual Financial Framework (MFF).
“Ireland’s Presidency focuses on three key elements – stability, jobs and growth,” she said. “Our citizens want to see the EU respond effectively to the crisis and respond to stability and growth.”
Ms Burton also highlighted how the EU had brought about peace and furthered women’s rights. “The European project ensured our continent moved away from war,” she said.
The Minister urged people not to let current economic conditions cloud their judgment of the EU.
“The current crisis has obscured the fact that the EU has been a force for good,” she said. “Public trust has slipped at national and EU levels. We need to act to restore that trust and to empower EU citizens.”
Burton said that the EU was not just about economies and business. She said that Ireland’s EU Presidency will also place an emphasis on addressing the linkages between hunger, nutrition and climate change.
“Please remember that Europe is not just about bankers,” she said. “Today, in every sense, [the European project] must be about citizens and society.”
“Because if the EU had a failing it was that it allowed the doctrine of market fundamentalism to dominate,” she said.
The salutary lesson is that we cannot allow the financial markets, or the wealthy elites, to dictate our future.
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It seems to me that this govt care more about the bondholders & their euro masters than they do the people they were elected to represent. If Noonan & co proceed as planned that will at least explain the difference between themselves & their predecessors ; in a word – nothing.
Noonan speaking out of the two sides of his mouth. There has to be a reason why the Govt. Is paying this money and if their argument is debatable then their side of the story of why we should pay should be listed also. Surely in this day and age we should be able to deal in facts on such a serious issue instead of opinion and political arm wrestling and spin. I am concerned that this whole financial thing has an agenda because they couldn’t be that stupid, could they?
I will give you 674,250 reasons why not pay it. That’s the amount of people unemployed in this country, and that should be enough.
How many SNA’s would you get for a billion euro? How many hospital beds could you re-open for a billion euro? How many struggling families could you help for a billion euro? This outrageous decision to refund some wealthy businessmen makes me sick to the pit of my stomach. Let them go to hell. Our children will be paying for it.
This decision isnt just to fund ‘wealthy businessmen’ though, most of the bondholder institutions are pension funds and so when these loans are paid back it just means that the people have money in their pension fund, if we dont pay it, they will have less money or maybe none at all. But the real problem is the stupid gombeen TD’s that were running the department of finance or the financial regulator, They could see what the banks were doing, they let bondholders buy bonds with a higher return priority than customer deposits!!!! What sort of regulation is that??!! They could see that every bank was been reckless! And they did feck all abour it!! Unfortunatly these bonds are held by pension funds and so it would be naive to think that the only consequence of not paying the E700 million would be that some business man wont get paid, it could be a persons life savings that were gambled on by the bondholder! Oh and 1 last point in my rant, why dont the government tell everyone that Ireland will be Burning the bondholders from now on, then when the institutions go to sell them at a discount, the government could buy them and save huge amounts of money, this should have been done on day 1 though!
Stephen, you have the attention of the Dail. You were voted in by thousands, including me. I agree with all you wrote there, but the govt are hell bent on paying this and other obscene debts and couldnt care less about the opinions of the ordinary folk. Please use your seat to make any difference you can.
+1
+1
well Stephen?…you going to makeyour self heard??…or just pick up the paycheck??
Excellent article. Sheds light on the subject. If FG & Labour go ahead with this, I for one will hold them in the same contempt as FF.
And what good would that do? Nothing
Pretty incredible that Noonan can incisively assess the situation, but is still content to go ahead with the payment.
Forgive my ignorance,but why are we paying for this? I read the article, but am none the wiser as to why we are paying back what is essentially risk money?will it give stability to the euro?its like gambling but with no losers.will paying this huge sum make us top class citizens amongst our euro buddies,or suggest Ireland is open for crooks,ah I mean business?and…now im depressed
very well said, Stephen.
What does it matter what they pay out anymore. Ireland is a bankrupt country. We are nothing but cows to the politicians & upperclass. Why would they listen to us when only few are trying to make some kind of protest & the rest of us are here bitching on twitter. I wish there was someone who could organise a proper protest where we could all as citizens bring the country to a standstill, bet they would listen then.
We need to learn from the ordeal of the Libyan people. They realised that if they wanted freedom, they’d have to get it themselves. That is what we need to do. Before anyone launches an attack on me, I am not advocating violence.
I am merely saying that if we want these corrupt politicians to stop treating us this way, we need to realise that collectively, we (the people) have more power than they do. So lets stop talking about it and start giving future generations some chance of survival here on the Emerald Isle!
One protest last year on November 27th was enough to get Fianna Fail out of office. Let us come together again (and again if we need to) and get these promise breaking, corrupt, croney protecting, heartless politicians out of office.
Let us, the people, speak!
Today we pay off a $1 billion Anglo bond which we’re not obliged to pay to private investors who will be making a 200% profit on their investment, at a time when across the country people are suffering, hospitals are being closed, we’ve over 14%+ unemployment and an entire generation is emigrating once more. Forget the thought of Gallagher as president, forget Steve Staunton’s reign managing Ireland, forget electing Fianna Fáil crooks to office time after time, this is a true national disgrace, only a country of gombeens would let such a thing happen, we didn’t fight hard enough, we didn’t give enough of a shit, and they’re robbing us blind because of it, if Ireland can feel proud of the actions of 15 men manipulating an egg shaped ball half a world away, then we should equally feel ashamed of our disgusting and vile passivity today! GROW SOME FUCKING BALLS IRELAND! Stop reading this and the other half baked opinion on sites like this by people who are arsed opening they’re big bloody mouths but not to get up and stand up for their country, do something, join up with others, get up of your bloody holes, think of our future, enough is enough!
If there was a bank robbery of that magnitude (700million) the news papers would be talking about it for ages, but I bet that this is going to disappear of the headlines in the next few days and they will refocus their attention on diverting peoples attention by talking endlessly about benefit fraud or how we have the highest wages in Europe (BS!) or something like that.
Actually to be accurate there would have to be a bank robbery of €5million on the 19th of Oct, of €9million on the 25th, €700 million on the 2nd Nov, €5 million on the 7th, €11 million on the 21st, €43 million on the 5th Dec, €24million on the 14th Dec and another four bank robberies on the 16th Dec for 24 million, 22 million, 2 million and 9million each. And these are just the amounts to unsecured bondholders; these are just the ones we don’t have to pay!
Absolute unadulterated madness!
Imagine what we could do with this money?
If ever there was an argument for revolution, this is it.
The Irish don’t do revolution, they sing about it and write poems. Name the last time there was a major revolution in Ireland ? By this I mean more than four or five hundred turning out in 1916. More people have attended a U2 gig in Croke Park than have ever taken part in an Irish revolution. The last time I saw the Irish people angry enough to have a revolution and the numbers to do it was in Dublin. The Bloody Sunday march 1972. Even that only lasted for a few days.
A word of deep sympathy from Scotland to the screwed taxpayers of Ireland who were forced into this outrageous arrangement to compensate the bankers for their follies and wild excesses. At least, your politicians are directly accountable to you unlike in Scotland where our decisions are taken by a government we did not elect. – we get screwed in a different way!
Revolutions aren’t something that a people can just conjure up, you can’t just magic one into existence. They don’t happen by everyone suddenly waking up one day and saying, hey lets have a revolution! They aren’t caused or not caused by peculiar characteristics of national consciousness.
In order for there to be a revolution, it firstly has to be impossible to go on the way things are and I think we are there now. 4 billion of the budget this year and the next and the next is unsustainable, we can’t go on like that.
I’m not sure if Ireland has ever experienced anything like that? So how can you compare with our past? Its not comparing like with like. We should look outwards not inwards, compare what is happening now to other countries pasts, that are more similar to how we are now and if you do that, you’ll see that these situations eventually cause cracks which can lead to revolutions.
If the people of Iceland can remove a government surely the people of Ireland can do it as well. All it needs is enough people on the steets. No need for violence just the weight of public opinion.
Face it you don’t have the numbers….Most Irish people don’t actually want to remove the government thats pretty obvious
@ Dave. Exactly! We don’t even have to have a revolution. The system is crumbling on it’s own. It’s unsustainable. It was built on dreams and greed (that’s foundations of sand to us).
Well said Dave- yes, that we tolerate this is madness-(as I said above, Einstein defines insanity very well!) There seems to be a lot of corruption here and in Europe driving these decisions but the media (esp RTE) is definitely and deliberately not exposing any of it…why wouldn’t the government identify the bondholders before they handed over the money-why do they need to hide behind smokescreen of anonymity??!
What do you bet that they are going to say: “Well, we found 3.6bn yesterday that we didn’t know we had… so lets pay the 1bn bond and we still have 2.6bn spare!” BURN THE BOND HOLDERS!
Here is the thing, this is our country, we pay our taxes we elect the people we want to represent us on a larger scale, albeit these people are more corrupt and dishonest than their predecessors, We should have a say, I say follow Greece, ask the people and have a referendum on paying back Anglo for their UNsecured Bonds, and see what they say, 100% No is my guess to paying it back. Pump that money into education, homeless, and at home charities! We got shafted before, we’re getting shafted now, and we will continue to get shafted in the future, unless we do something major about it, I for one, am not looking forward to this budget in December! oh and to top it all off, they found 3.2 billion or whatever the amount was lying down the back of the couch!
Sigh – we’ve successfully built up a reputation as weaklings, the whipping boys of the EU.
We were bullied into the eurozone, bullied into surrendering our seas and our sugar beet production, bullied twice into re-voting on EU referendum, bullied into propping up banks, bullied into accepting a bailout and bullied into paying back these faceless investors.
It’s no wonder the recent deal sees all of Europe sharing the burden of Greek, French and German debt yet we’re still told to carry on paying back unsustainable debt.
I think I’ll run for president next time around! :)
Ha Ha, Eamonn the President has no power! you need to run for Taoiseach…at least…
What a simple, civilised, logical, fair and common-sense five points – seems blindingly obvious to me and with the EU on the ropes over the Greece referendum, a perfect time to do it. DO IT!
“So what should the government do?
– Announce that they are “pausing” the payment of this bond.
Invite bondholders to enter negotiations.
– When the ECB/Eurozone governments object, hold them to the letter of the agreements they signed.
– In negotiations with bondholders, seek a substantial “voluntary” haircut for this and future unsecured Anglo bonds.
– Proceed with other aspects of the EU/IMF programme to continue to tackle the deficit.”
Well said René. The markets are the greatest con job of the century that ever existed. I’ve no problem with people who enjoy a bet on the match or the horses but betting with people’s lives, jobs, mortgages is unacceptable
Is there no leader among us who is willing to shout out that THE EMPOROR HAS NO CLOTHES ON!
For many years prior to 2008 there were voices to be heard in magazines like Permaculture and Resurgence that accurately predicted the crash that ruined all of the economies .Articles were published that drew into focus the unsustainability of “first world “consumption , Further articles predicted the pending catastrophes of “peak oil ” and rapid global climate change . These predictions were largely ignored by the people who just wanted to carry on with “unsustainable ” consumer habits . These opinions were often ridiculed by the “movers and shakers ” who built an economic system based upon a fantasy . It suited the merchants and bankers to conjure an illusion that we could all get rich quick by trading in information and speculating on the fortunes of others . Making things and selling them was seen as the “old industrial way ” and was transferred lock stock and barrel to China .The only focus to dwell upon became ever increasing markets for goods that somebody else made — with all the concomitant industrial pollution . For this reason nobody could care a jot when Greece and Italy were able to join the Euro system with credentials that were as reliable as a dodgy MOT/NCT certificate . Despite historical precedents it suited everyone in the ballooning economies to choose to believe that we could all go to heaven and nobody had to die .At last the balloon has burst — now we are all standing in the wreckage .Many of us are praying that the same old guys who belong to the same old class can patch up the balloon and we can all go back to dreamland .As Einstein said “You cannot solve a problem with the same type of thinking that created it “. The last people who will turn the corner toward sustainability are the “leaders ” of the post industrial economies . Just one example — the capitalist/industrialist uses the word “sustainable ” to mean “sustainable growth ” — the inclusion of the word “growth ” is the fatal flaw in that model . Growth cannot ever be continual in a world with limited resources .However there are movements that are going forward to local sustainable models — such as “Transition Towns “in many locations — a fine example of which can be seen in Totnes — where the locals have created their own local currency to keep jobs and services in the community . The answers to the future for our children are not quick or easy fixes — but a slow return toward exploiting local resources and talents — toward making our own stuff — not paying the only current manufacturer of everything — China – to do our making for us .To maybe give up on frequent flying — maybe instead opt for taking a year out every seven years and go overland for slow leisurely holidays .This could become the greatest opportunity to build a genuine sustainable future and turn our backs on the rip off cowboy culture for ever . On the day we choose to take those steps together — and the “cowboys ” try to stop us — that is when the revolution can begin — not when angry people want to take to the streets to demand a quick fix by the weak and egotistical “representatives” who have led the people of the First World down this potentially fatal blind alley .
You make too many points to address them all, but “Peak Oil” or “Peak Fossil Fuels” are a long way off. Huge finds are still being made. We only have a financial incentive to find more when what we have gets expensive. Growth can be continued way into the future. It’s a big solar system and a big universe.
William Grogan
You seem to be dismissing most of the points in my posting as “too many to address ” and choose to focus upon the argument that “peak oil is a long way off ” — I am sure that it must be comforting to hold such beliefs — and you might well be right — it is conceivable that most scientists who are researching in that field could be misleading us — for some strange reason — but if they are telling the truth then peak oil is already here .That is the rate at which we are consuming oil outweighs new discoveries The FACTS about this can be found at — http://www.oildecline.com/
Even if in the weird scenario whereby all the researchers are distorting facts — then it must be agreed that oil is actually limited somewhere down the road . The environmental cost of extraction of marginal deposits — tar sands — for example outweigh their value from the viewpoint of the people who live there .
You say “Huge finds are still being made ” however this is absolutely untrue — I quote from the website I refer to :-
There have been no significant discoveries of new oil since 2002. In 2001 there were 8 large scale discoveries, and in 2002 there were 3 such discoveries. In 2003 there were no large scale discoveries of oil. Given geologists’ sophisticated understanding of the characteristics that would indicate a major oil find, is is highly unlikely that any area large enough to be significant has eluded attention and no amount or kind of technology will alter that. Since 1981 we have consumed oil faster than we have found it, and the gap continues to widen
To say that “This is a big solar system and a big universe ” sounds like a science fiction fantasy — the only energy source for us in the Solar system available to us is the Sun — and as a source of energy — it may be viable — but at a mere fraction of the energy we are currently consuming from oil .
Consumption statistics in 2004 said that we were at that time consuming 20 per cent more resources than this planet can consume — http://www.livescience.com/36-group-warns-consumption-earth-resources.html
This FACT contradicts your statement that “Growth can be continued way into the future ” — it is this type of thinking that has created the crisis that we find ourselves in today .
The point of my posting was to suggest that we all can look at our current status as either a disaster — and bitch about it — or more constructively — as an opportunity !!
If we are to seize this opportunity then we need first to curb our drastic irresponsible consumption .That consumption has created this crisis — NOT THE BANKERS . The richest country in the world — the only one that can bail out the USA !!! — is CHINA — where consumer consumption is at a minimum compared to the West .
They are profiting nicely from our addictions .
To change that is a slow process — but — that is just the same as the Titanic — I personally have chosen to start steering away from the impact — if you choose not too — well that is of course — up to you — your head — your sand !!
In favour of your position you point me to a web site called http://www.oildecline.com. That’s so obviously biased that it’s not worth looking at. The number of people who read rubbish websites on the web and just believe them is amazing.
The discoveries in Brazil recently rival Saudi Arabia, the tar & shale deposits in North America dwarf them several fold and there’s been discoveries in a dozen other countries recently. We will almost certainly find oil off Ireland and there is likely to be oil in far deeper water everywhere around the world where we haven’t yet looked. Oil will probably not be needed after we engineer Nuclear Fusion so there is more than plenty to last until then. (I might add that I oppose the burning of oil for energy because of climate change, but that’s a different issue.)
Car engines, especially hybrids, that burn oil are already far more efficient than they were, less of our electricity is generated from oil. The production and use of oil is linked to price. If it goes up to much people won’t use it so it will never run out. In The UK because of the recent recession, petrol use in cars has dropped. Google “Peak Oil Myth” and read some of the more balanced articles.
It WAS science fiction in 1865 for Jules Verne to write his story about going to the moon, it wasn’t in 1969.
In 1894, the Times of London estimated that every street in the city would be buried 9 feet deep in horse manure by 1950. It didn’t happen. Doomsday predictions have been erroneously made in every decade. You are no different than the religious nutter Camping who said the world would end on October the 21th.
William Grogan
As you feel that the first website I chose to cite about Peak Oil is unrepresentative — I looked at this one :-
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/UK-Government-Predicting-Peak-Oil-Within-5-Years.html
Quote :
The UK Secretary for Energy and Climate Change, Chris Huhne, has committed to establish an “Oil Shock Response Plan” to cope with some of the consequences of peak oil (http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2072738/exclusive-government-develop-oil-shock-response-plan). While there remains dissent as to the facts of peak oil, a growing body of experts think that the phenomenon will occur at some point during the next five years. On a recent BBC radio 4 broadcast (March 27th) a former president of Shell, John Hofmeister, reckoned that there was no problem with the production of oil meeting demand for it until 2050/2060. This kind of estimate includes various kinds of unconventional oil for which the EROEI (Energy Returned on Energy Invested) is far lower than for the cheap readily available conventional oil on which the modern global world depends.
Specifically, there are reckoned to be 1.2 trillion barrels of conventional oil and another 3.7 trillion barrels of unconventional oil, which includes oil-shale and tar-sands. Neither of these resources contain “oil” as such, but kerogen and bitumen, respectively, which need to be processed into fuel using substantial amounts of energy and water. By way of comparison, the EROEI for conventional oil is reckoned at somewhere between 11 and 18 (it was 100 for the original Texan “gushers”) while it is around 3 for these unconventional sources. The Hirsch report, published in 2005, concluded that to avoid major disruptions, we need to plan 20 years before the arrival of the oil peak, and that we just don’t have.
Are these sources acceptable — or should we disregard them as unreliable because they don’t agree with you?
You claim that when you solve the problems with Nuclear Fusion then oil will not be needed — even the most committed scientists who research nuclear fusion have to admit that the problems are staggering — from the website ;-
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/fed/Fusion-Facts/fusn.htm
Factors of a Controlled Fusion Reaction
Fuel
The major fuel for a fusion reactor, deuterium, can be extracted from ordinary water which contains more than 10 million tons of deuterium. Tritium is produced from lithium, which is available from land deposits or from seawater. This fuel could satisfy the world’s power requirements for thousands of years.
Temperature
In order to release energy for production of electricity, the deuterium-tritium fuel must be heated to about 100 million degrees Celsius. This high temperature is more than six times hotter than the interior of the sun, which is estimated to be 15 million degrees Celsius.
Confinement
The problem with creating high temperatures is confining the deuterium and tritium under such extreme conditions. Charged particles in the high-temperature plasma are confined by a magnetic field preventing them from striking the vessel walls and forcing them to follow spiral paths along the field lines. Without a magnetic field, the charged particles move in straight lines and in random directions striking the walls of a containment vessel – cooling the plasma and interrupting fusion reactions.
To my mind relying upon a fuel production technique that requires maintaining a temperature of 100 million degrees centigrade to produce energy seems to be a quite reckless gamble . I am not suggesting that this is utterly impossible — just that large scale production that consumes such energy seems a very remote likelihood .
I find it engaging that you deploy an argument about price elasticity of demand to justify “oil never running out ” . Of course it is very basic economics that as price rises — demand will drop . Surely that is exactly the argument that takes us to my original point — when oil gets to those high prices it can no longer be a dependable base for industry , transport or heating .
I note that you have nothing to say still about excess consumption of natural resources — or anything to say about ventures like Transition Town projects or the Totnes endeavours .These activities are the creative application of the energy and intent of hundreds of people who believe that we cannot rest in the state of dependency upon the industrial model to solve all of our problems .
I take exception to your rather offensive suggestion that I am ” no different than the religious nutter Camping who said the world would end on October the 21th.” Those prophets of the end of the world have nothing to offer other than despair . The point of making suggestions that people might find it easier to move forward by consuming less and becoming more locally self reliant is the exact opposite of that type of belief .
Rene, your previous biased web site was written by one man, an airline pilot. The web is full of one man band doomsday web sites, Camping was just one example, the NY horseshit problem was another, we’ve had Fluoride in water on this website, another in the 70’s was Global Cooling and a new Ice Age. Doom-mongers have been with us since the dawn of civilisation. The ancient Christians/Jews predicted the end of the world 2000 years ago as do all Christian religious sects today. You are part of an illogical fearful conspiracy. If the human race is wiped out or suffers catastrophe it will more likely be something unforeseen as we are very good, and getting better, at solving our problems.
This is TOTAL guesswork, “there are reckoned to be 1.2 trillion barrels of conventional oil”
“Peak Oil” is a myth. It means nothing. There is obviously a finite amount of oil & gas & coal & tar & shale & Uranium etc, but that’s not relevant. If one gets too expensive we use another or invent a new solution. There’s little to worry about. We could switch to electric or Hydrogen cars in 10 years.
Your comments about Nuclear Fusion are plain wrong. A reactor is being built in France and due to go online in 2019. After ITER the next reactor will be a working reactor generating electricity, about 2000-4000MW. They are hoping to deliver electricity to the grid by 2040. Fusion has already been made to occur. It’s just an engineering problem. While it’s difficult, so was going to the Moon. See http://www.iter.org
PS Can you spare us the big Copy & Paste exercise and make your points more concisely? Part of your pastes contained arguments against your position!
William Grogan
I am not the only one who cites sources that contradict arguments .
The ITER website states clearly that the ITER fusion EXPERIMENT could be completed by 2019 — and that could lead to a nuclear fusion co-operation that could bring fusion power online by the final quarter of this century — certainly not by 2019 as you state — that statement of yours is plain wrong !
Meanwhile there are amongst scientists considerable arguments about the probability of a stable plasma container ever becoming a practical consideration for large scale industrial generation .
Last post of yours I was the same as a religious nutter — now I am part of an illogical fearful conspiracy — you certainly make a study of offering personal offensive remarks don’t you ?? To my mind I am not in any way conspiring with anybody to achieve anything whatsoever — so — back off with the insults !!
You say “peak oil ” means nothing — again untrue — it obviously means what the people who use the term mean . That is the point when our consumption outstrips our discoveries .
You say that oil exhaustion does not matter — because “we will invent a new solution ” — have you personally invented any new solution ?? Are you expecting someone in authority to provide one for you ?? Do you take any steps to reduce your own consumption ??
You keep on banging on about how Peak oil is a myth / Science will provide — but you back away each time from commenting upon the efforts that are being made by hundreds of people who are trying to apply the permaculture philosophies in Transition Towns like the Totnes project .
You fail each time to address the idea that the West is consuming far more than its fair share of world resources .
My argument from the start has been that our greed — for more and more stuff — generated this latest financial crisis and that a drastic reduction in consumption will begin to address this problem.
On the way to redressing the balance we might discover that “Think Globally — Act Locally ” can generate a new sense of community along the way .
That this is not a vague aspiration or a science fantasy requiring billions of dollars or euros — but is a set of steps that people can take locally to improve their lives.
That there are in Ireland and UK and USA — even in Portugal — in fact — Worldwide –groups who are taking active steps to transform the quality of life for all local communities .
That these groups can provide an inspiration for others who want to be in charge of improving their life — and move away from the despair that the disempowerment of the current downturn provides .
What is wrong with that ?
Please stop trying to reduce this to “my website citations are better than yours ” .
Perhaps address some of those points rather than bring on Super Science Billion dollar solutions every time .
Rene, you ARE a gloom & doom merchant. As such you do belong to a long line of pessimists that have predicted catastrophe of many descriptions. Your type has always been wrong. You are wrong. “The West consuming more than its fair share”. That’s reality. Humans have never had equality. Are we supposed to become subsistence farmers to feel less guilty? The poor benefit by our advances. Look at India or China.
I said 2040 before electricity would be supplied to the grid, not 2019. You ARE also a pessimist about NF and claim while it’s not impossible it’s unlikely. You are wrong it’s highly likely it will work. It’s been proven to work. The huge and very technical ITER program is the last step before a commercial reactor is built.
I’m not interested in some green tree hugging pagan/hippy small energy future. That’s not mankind’s way. We are explorers, inventors and problem solvers. It’s a wonder your pessimist genes have survived. :)
Sorry William — but — NO — I am no way a pessimist — nor a doom or gloom merchant . I believe in people — particularly local people — solving local problems — but — being aware of the wide world .It would be great — to my mind if our governments were involved in creating the international matrix for local action to fit into .
My opinion about nuclear fusion is — of course only a layman’s opinion .
The way I read the ITER .org publication says that there are TWO stages to their EXPERIMENT . ITER is the design phase — HOPE to be completed by 2019. The second stage is DEMO — to DEMONSTRATE that the process works — due — as you assert by 2040 . BUT THE DEMO PHASE WILL PRODUCE DEMONSTRABLE AMOUNTS OF ENERGY — Industrial amounts will not be realistic before the last quarter of the century .
That is THEIR position — NOT MINE . — So — I guess that William Grogan now knows better than the scientists at ITER ???
I do get the picture — you want to — or maybe — have to believe that all the times that they say “Could ” and “might ” don’t matter a jot . The miracle will happen . That is the problem when ” faith and prayer superstitious folk” swap god — and put up scientists in his place.
My — very optimistic — happy local people — attitude is based on something that we the locals CAN do .
Nobody that I ever met at Transition Town movements or Totnes ever hugged a tree — never was a pagan .
Why do you have to persist in flaunting derogatory personal remarks ??
What have you ever invented ??
When have you tried to make a personal difference ??
Just what are your credentials that give you the gall to discredit people of good faith ??
I am trying to suggest that local disempowered people can begin to make a difference to their lives — right now .
What do you have to offer — IT,S OK TO CARRY ON CONSUMING — God — sorry — Grogans FAITH — will provide .
As they say — Live Horse and you’ll get grass . !!
You are now ranting. Typical of the superstitious, religious and quackery obsessed mind.
I see from your FB site that you are interested in books about Shamanism or Spiritualism (i.e. pagan/new age hippy crap) as I already pointed out. You refer to Eckhart Tolle, another new age hippy nutter, ancient Chinese nonsense, Milton H. Erickson who claims he cured himself of Polio by the power of his mind! You are obviously seriously out of contact with REALITY.
I point these things out not to insult you but to show anyone reading that your notions are based on what most sane people would regard as seriously weird nonsense.
By 2040 ITER’s replacement will produce enough power itself that would supply approx half of Ireland’s electricity. ITER itself is expected to produce large amounts of power for about 5+ minutes. The world’s governments are not spending €10,000,000,000 on developing Nuclear Fusion because they don’t think it will work.
You should forget all that quasi religious nonsense you believe in and read a few books on science.
Well now William
Thanks for all the time you have spent on this exchange .
I have now learned a good bit about Nuclear Fusion .
If we were ever to meet up — I am sure that we could find even one small thing to agree about — and that would be a good thing .
Now — I feel — that we must draw a line under these word swaps .
I regard your statements now as feedback — not criticism — it took me quite a while to get there. As I once read in a quote by that legend in horse training Monty Roberts :-
There is no such thing as criticism — only feedback
And Feedback is the Breakfast of Champions .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc0m7e4UnIY
The above link is a song that has had a haunting presence since I first heard it back in the amazing 1960′s.
I hope that you enjoy listening to it .
The very best of luck
As Ever
Rene
Whatever you want to say next — well — I shall leave the last word to you
Stop worrying :)
anybody alive out there – please read and share this – y’all may not have voted in presidential elections – but time to get fingers out and get active . . .
Hulk for taoiseach. SMASH BONDHOLDERS!! Srsly tho. brilliantly argued article fair play stephen. everyone who thought fg/lab were the new hope are now baking themselves a nice big humble pie. if only all the anger I see on the journal daily could be turned into action…
I’m pretty happy with the governments performance so far partly because my expectations were limited. No humble pie for me. On we go. There will be no revolution….but good luck with trying to egg people on here to start one!
Guys, we need to pay our debts. Not doing so is bad for future business. Get a grip …
But this is not our debt. Similarly the ECB was a major investor in Anglo.
So now we borrow from the ECB to pay back their investment – how ridiculous is that?
That is not a bailout, it is a scam.
The ECB should take a haircut on the investment it made in Anglo instead of lending us money to pay the dividend and then charge us interest for the privilege.
While I was once very much pro Europe I am fast becoming a pagan euro sceptic.
you forget one little thing Bernhard – this is not OUR debt
Also Bernhard – in these hard economic times EVERYTHING is up for negotiation surely? It’s the way *they* made the world.
Oh? So will Enda, Eamon & friends pay MY debts? Or do I have to be a $anker firstly?
But Bernhard..it’s socialism for capitalists and enforced capitalism for the rest of us!!
And a note for the electorate for the next election: Einstein said: “Definition of insanity..doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” Please please vote for the only party who has been consistent on these issues and who will support all the genuine people in our country and help build our communities instead of pandering to the 1% obscenely rich elite. Sinn fein will expose that minority and but an end to this incredible inequality which is causing such pain for so many of our lovely people!
Those creatures who suck our Christian blood I recall seeing on Gran Canaria indulging in all kinds of mass depravity bragging like Des FizGerald most paid and most corrupt in EU I was making my reportage there and then Jails and Tax office are coming
huh?
Lost in Translation ?
Good point; well made.
If he said that before the election He wouldn’t be in power.they are all pure useless
@ Donal. You can’t save something that was built on sand. They are all running around in Europe petrified about Greece having a referendum. Save your breath and fingertips, it’s unsustainable and its crumbling down.
And as for the Dáil, as long as it operates within a whip system it’s undemocratic. The whip stifles democracy. I’m not against party politics as it is an easy way for voters to identify a candidate within a ethos system but the whip has to go. But that’s another argument.
Reada – be careful what you wish for. Again, the people who will suffer the most in collapse of the system situation are those who rely on the State for their income and essential services.
As regards your objections to the whip system, it does not operate within a whip system. The political parties elected to the Dáil operate a whip system and are very upfront about it. A political party without a whip would be a contradiction in terms.
We have a perfectly adequate option for those who don’t want to tow the party line, they can run as an independent. Lots of people do and it is up to the electorate to decide who to vote for. Most of them seem to want political parties.
That’s not true Donal. The people most likely to suffer from the collapse of the Markets are those who are trying to keep it from collapsing. I know these are scary times for all of us but they are exciting times too. It is time for us to start making decisions from a human level not just an economic one.
I am hoping that my wishes come true.
I’m a softish lefty socialist with no party connections. I think true socialism should involve always trying to make your community better.Im not going about stamping my feet and demanding my rights. Real cooperative socialism should be stamping your feet and demanding a fairer and equal society where everybody plays their part.
There’s a change in the air. Surely we’re not ready to let the Markets become out lord and masters. They need us as much as we need them.
Are they paying in cash, euro bonds or Irish bonds. If Irish bonds, it may be a signal that we also are exiting euro.
Could we give -Anglo to the ECB
Excellent idea hahaha
1) This is our debt – we nationalized Anglo – once we did that it became ours, warts and all. Comparisons to other banks that went bust (which Anglo technically hasn’t) are therefore invalid.
2) Paying it back might not be part of the fine print of our bailout agreement but it (honouring all senior debt) has been explicitly made so by the ECB.
Secondly, the reduction in interest rates was not in our original agreement either – this is something that can be taken away.
3) If the markets believe we are heading for default, why is our debt now trading at below 8%? – down from over 20% in some cases. Why is it that a lot of commentators see us being able to access realistic rates in 2012/2013?
Point 2. Correction ECB has forced Ireland to honour all senior debt unlike in Greece were they agreed a 50% write down. Level playing field please.
The reduction in interest rates only happend because of Greeces problems during their first ‘rescue’. Had nothing to do with Kenny no matter what he may claim.
Kerry – Greece is defaulting on all their debt. They will not be able to sell debt for many many years. Any extra funds they can access from the EU will come with many pain-inducing strings. That is not a place you want to place Ireland. We should all massively thankful that we are not Greece. I realize that some may be unable to grasp why this is.
The only way for us to regain our Economic Sovereignty is to be able to return to the private debt markets.
The point re the reduction in interest rates was that it is something that can be taken away. This would be the immediate consequnece of not paying these bonds as they fall due.
Donal. You sound like a reasonable guy and I noticed you were also a Michael d supporter so I’ll forgive you anything. Your main mind block is that you’re thinking within the confines of the corrupt system that exists. That system has had it’s day and it’s failed the community.
It’s time to tear up the page and start again.
With regard to your first point. I don’t remember the government asking me if I wanted to privatise Anglo and guarantee their debt? This is an attempt to enforce legalised slavery on the Irish people!
Reada – thanks.
Tearing up the system will result in enormous suffering for those who can’t support themselves. That’s why I think we have to keep on trying to save it until the very end. IMO, the alternative might appear attractive to some socialists but would not have the support of the vast majority of the people.
Darren – the Government do stuff every day without asking you – that’s the point of the Dáil.
You are absolutely right. This is not something that started with the Celtic Tiger. This whole thing is a master plan which has been worming it’s way to this stage for years and years. It doesn’t make sense to most people that the banks doled out huge loans to people they knew could never pay them back. The name of their game was ‘get everyone into debt’ and when we have the majority of citizens in debt, got rid of anyone with a few bob in their pocket and got rid of the farmers off the land (self sufficiency) we will be in control. That makes a lot more sense than “they are all dumb asses”. Dead right there. We’re well on the way to one world government and it was all done while we were signing on the dotted line for the thirty pieces of silver. Too late now probably for the revolution.
The experience of tiny wee Iceland, whose brave ppl held a referendum, burned the incompetent greedsters & are now recovering shows just how stupid & cowardly the FG/FF/Lab Tweedles really are.
Just to point out that the Facebook link for this article says “€700 billion” for an Anglo-Irish repayment. I’m pretty sure that that is a typo, with billion instead of million.
Stephen, you are a smart guy??? Do you truly believe that telling the ECB,stick to the agreement,is
something that will do us good long term,there are many parts of funding that do not come under
this agreement which keep us in funds,do you think the government is letting this money slide,
so they can attempt to catch a break on extending the next big batch of ten yr bonds,maybe they
calculated they will choose there battles with the hope of saving more money long term,maybe!!
Will people stop whining about this. YOU voted in the governments who made these decisions. It’s a democracy. Live with it. Just don’t vote for idiots the next time. Decide if Ireland is to be a Communist country or a Free Market economy and live with it. At the moment it’s neither. Just a very inefficient semi-socialist mess.
William don’t read the comments if you’re going to get so upset. Read the article only. The rest of us have a bit of craic and enjoy the debate of the comments.
Upset? Don’t be silly. I’m not the slightest bit upset. I don’t live here.
Seriously though, are we just supposed to vote then sit back and leave them to their own devices? Doesn’t much fit my definition of democracy….
Jesus Niall. We couldn’t stay quiet for 4 days never mind 4 years
Sorry, Niall, but the type of democracy in Ireland is called Parliamentary Democracy and that’s exactly the way it works. You vote in someone you believe will have time to study the issues and implement the best policies. We could switch to the Swiss model and then we could vote, perhaps through the Internet, every few weeks. Do you want that? Do you want Mrs Murphy from Acadia Avenue who left school at 16 and reads the Sun deciding on some very complex issues? The ACTUAL problem is Mrs Murphy votes for a chancer who promises her the Earth Moon & stars, a bit like her husband did, and bankrupts the country trying to deliver it :)
Or 4 minutes, Réada ;)
@William
Price of liberty is eternal vigilance, is it not? Think it’s about time that the Irish electorate on masse switches on and starts properly holding public representatives to account for their actions.
First step is informed public debate … which, granted, may come across like whining….
The problem is the public is not informed.
Look at the newspapers people read, the TV programs they watch, the books & magazines they read. Look what they believe in; gods, homeopathy, MacDonalds, ghosts, bad luck, lottos, various conspiracy theories, etc.
Look who they vote for Liam Lawlor, Charlie H, Bilbo Baggins in Kerry, Michael Lowery, the Greens, the children of politicians.
Look at the people in Dail Eireann and how disproportionate they are compared to the general population; 23% Teachers, Political/Trade Union/Civil Servants 13%, Farmers 12%, Legal Eagles 11%, Accountants 6%, Auctioneers 4% the rest (about 16 professions) 30%
Why didn’t this article come out long ago?
Maybe it’s because FG/LAB are some of the mysterious bond holders and that is why they insist on paying the bond holders. Just a thought !
have your say