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As it happened: Dáil approves Bill to liquidate IBRC

Catch up with text commentary from the Dáil as TDs voted to wind up the former Anglo.

THE DÁIL sat late into the night to consider dramatic emergency legislation which would liquidate the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation – the former Anglo Irish Bank.

The legislation, the ‘IBRC Resolution Bill 2013′, was passed by the Dáil shortly before 3am by 113 votes to 35.

The commentary below recounts proceedings from the Dáil, as they happened, between 10:30pm and about 3am when the Bill was finally passed.

WELL NOW. I think it’s fair to open by saying we didn’t expect to be here right now.

Good evening – it’s Gavan Reilly here to cover proceedings from Leinster House as the Dáil and Seanad debate the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Resolution Bill 2013.

From what we know so far, the Bill looks like it’s part of a not-so-simple deal to scrap the promissory notes – but which will instead see the government issue a range of long-term sovereign bonds in their place.

In short, it turns a banking debt into a sovereign one – but by delaying the repayment for decades, its value is ultimately reduced because of the effects of decades of inflation in the meantime.

Here’s a worrying start: the Dail sits in five minutes, and the opposition doesn’t yet have a copy of the Bill it’s going to be debating.

On TV3, Ursula Halligan has said that this legislation – and the whole rigmarole about tonight’s proceedings – is a contingency plan that was ready months ago. The story goes that the “leak came from Frankfurt’s end” – suggesting that afternoon reports about Patrick Honohan‘s negotiating tactics were enough to send the government into its emergency mode.

OKAY. RTÉ’s David McCullagh says the legislation has only just been dropped into TDs’ letterboxes for them to look at – prompting the chief whip to delay Dáil proceedings until 11pm.

Tweets from TDs indicate that the opposition spokespersons are being briefed on the Bill as we speak. Fianna Fáil’s Michael McGrath, Sinn Fein’s Pearse Doherty and the ULA’s Richard Boyd Barrett are among those being briefed.

The word from inside Leinster House, by the way, is that although there’s a bit of strain between Fine Gael and Labour this week – mostly over the Taoiseach’s non-apology to the Magdalene women – there is little prospect of any back-bench defections over this Bill.

Both parties see any work to wind up IBRC as a “victory” – though there has been some minor discomfort in the backbenches that TDs may be forced to back the issue of government bonds, in lieu of the promissory note, at the same time.

So conflicting moods for some, but either way, little chance of a fracture in the coalition.

TV3 update: “This is all lunatic stuff,” moans Vincent.

Still no electronic copy of the Bill, by the way, which folk on the Twitter Machine™ say stretches to about 50 pages.

Right. TDs are filing into the chamber, apparently having been briefed on the contents of the Bill.

Says Waterford independent TD John Halligan: “This legislation is madness.”

Good evening. It’s 11 o’clock. Do you know where your children are?

Well, if your child is a TD, you know exactly where you are. Outside of Budget day, the Dáil is never this packed.

We’re in business. The Chief Whip is outlining the timetable tweeted by Thomas Pringle and having those rules confirmed. (Still no electronic copy of the Bill, by the way.)

Says Richard Boyd Barrett: “Only 2 hours 15mins to read & vote with no details of broader deal in Europe.” Not happy then.

Right, here we go…

Micheál Martin is up first, querying those procedures: he says Michael McGrath has only just gotten the Bill and it’s not fair to force them straight into a debate without getting a chance to read it first. “We have not seen the bill. It’s extraordinary.”

Martin: “15 minutes, 10 minutes, a five minute wrap up… no committee stage, essentially, for any detailed examination of the bill… I think it’s unacceptable as proposed.”

Enda Kenny offers to adjourn until 11:30pm. The opposition rejects the idea.

Gerry Adams says this is a more fundamental issue, and recalls the government’s promises about “a new way of doing business”. He’d be “immensely surprised” if even the government TDs had read the Bill.

Richard Boyd Barrett also has an issue – pointing out that the State was bankrupted by legislation that was passed in ways similar to how this Bill is going to be pushed through. “The Finance spokespeople were briefed 15 or 20 minutes before the session began.”

A quick snapshot of the Bill, which (unusually) has a preamble: The Bill says “the winding up of IBRC is necessary to resolve the debt of IBRC to the Central Bank of Ireland”.

(If that was the case, why didn’t it happen sooner?)

“This Bill has been planned for quite some time,” says Enda. The Bill gives legal protection to the assets of the State, he adds.

He again suggests an adjournment, until 11:45pm, for TDs to get a go to discuss it. Micheál Martin isn’t wild at the idea, because it means just kicking the can down the road (!) all night. “Just say midnight, Taoiseach.”

Enda, having canvassed for opinion, gets approval from Micheal Martin and the Technical Group to defer to midnight. Gerry Adams isn’t keen, saying that’s not enough time – but the midnight deadline seems to be accepted.

The Dáil stands adjourned until midnight to give TDs a chance to read the Bill.

So – let’s have a look at the Bill then…

The purposes of the Act are:

  • to help to address the continuing serious disturbance in the economy of the State;
  • to provide for the winding up of IBRC in an orderly and efficient manner in the public interest;
  • to end the exposure of the State and the Bank to IBRC;
  • to help to restore the financial position of the State;
  • to help to enable the State to re-establish normalised access to the international debt markets;
  • to assist, to the extent achievable, in recovering the financial assistance provided by the State to IBRC as fully and efficiently as possible;
  • to resolve the debt of IBRC to the Bank;
  • to protect the interests of taxpayers;
  • to restore confidence in the banking sector by furthering the reorganisation of the Irish banking system in the public interest;
  • to underpin Government support measures in relation to the banking sector.

The legislation provides that the Minister for Finance will issue a “special liquidation order” as soon as possible after the Bill is passed; after this is done, no person can bring a petition to wind up IBRC or any of its subsidiaries. This will bring about an immediate freeze in any legal action involving IBRC.

It will terminate the employment of every IBRC employee with immediate effect.

While employees will be laid off immediately, the Special Liquidator (that’ll be KPMG) will still have the power to engage with any of IBRC’s employees as is “necessary or beneficial for the orderly conduct of the winding up of IBRC.”

In a trigger clause to ensure that white-collar proceedings against former Anglo employees aren’t interrupted, the Act would

not affect any proceedings taken, investigation undertaken, or disciplinary or enforcement action undertaken by the Bank, the Director of Public Prosecutions, An Garda Síochána, the Director of Corporate Enforcement or any regulatory authority, in respect of any matter in existence at the time the Special Liquidation Order was made or other thing was done

Here’s an interesting bit. The Bill explicitly allows for any of IBRC’s assets or liabilities to be sold to anyone who’s willing to take on such obligations. This includes security on loans, the obligation to repay loans, and all the rest.

This basically paves the way for all of IBRC’s assets and liabilities to be sold off to either the Central Bank or NAMA as needed.

Explicitly, by the way, the Bill also enshrines that the liquidator has to undertake whatever suggestions are deemed necessary by the Minister. They can only act on the Minister’s command, basically.

The Bill provides that if anyone wants an injunction to stop the liquidator from taking any action, the court will have regard “to the public interest” and to the purposes of the Act I mentioned earlier. This, explicitly, discounts the fear that someone could be made bankrupt.

The Bill also takes away the Central Bank’s powers to wind up IBRC… and, in a very very weird clause, basically turns the Department of Finance into a bank. It allows the Minister to issue securities (that means bonds) – which he can then sell to other financial institutions.

The idea is that it ultimately allows the Minister to create enough bonds to eliminate the promissory notes.

From Gerry Adams on Twitter:

The government’s approach to introducing this Bill has been a shambles.

UCD’s Karl Whelan, on Twitter, points out that the Bill has a pretty big section that essentially stops creditors from jumping the queue down at the Four Courts.

This could add weight to what some of the government’s talking heads have been saying vicariously on TV3: the cat is now out of the bag, so to speak, and unless this legislation has been given legal effect by 7am there’s a risk that investors could withdraw their money from Ireland.

Joe Higgins on TV3:

I think this is an incredibly chaotic way to run a country. My first thoughts are with the 800 employees of the former Anglo Irish Bank… who will be out of a job tomorrow.

Here’s an interesting point. (Someone call the Council of State.)

The preamble to the Bill points out that…

…in the achievement of the winding up of IBRC, the common good may require permanent or temporary interference with the rights, including property rights, of persons.

Now, why is that interesting? Because this is Article 43 of the Constitution…

1° The State acknowledges that man, in virtue of his rational being, has the natural right, antecedent to positive law, to the private ownership of external goods.

2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.

Another odd feature… Section 11 of the Bill:

Part 7 of the Central Bank and Credit Institutions (Resolution) Act 2011 shall not apply to the winding up of IBRC.

That’s a clause which provides that the Minister for Finance, in regulating Ireland’s banks, “shall have regard to the laws of the European Union (including those governing State aid) and any relevant guidance issued by the Commission of the European Union.”

Now, that’s a pretty academic point – European law supersedes Irish law, whether it’s explicitly stated or not – but it’s an odd thing to point out…

The mechanics of all of this are still very complex and up in the air. The Act provides that a special liquidator is appointed with immediate effect… and also allows the Minister for Finance to order NAMA to bid for any assets being put up for sale.

This means that many of IBRC’s loans – including the disputed ones to the Quinn family – could simply be acquired by NAMA and continued.

That answers the questions that many of you had about whether the marathon Quinn legal disputes disappear immediately: The answer is no. The Act provides that all action is frozen for the time being, and gives enough time for other entities (probably NAMA) to divvy up IBRC’s carcass between them.

Re 23:40 and the point about the constitutionality of the Bill: it should be pointed out that a Preamble is all well and good, but unless the Bill itself explicitly infringes on a person’s property rights, that’s a bit moot. It’ll be up to the courts – and to legal minds better educated than mine! – to decide if that’s the case.

Stephen Donnelly on TV3: There are two very dangerous pieces to this legislation. The first is that it transfers the promissory note from IBRC to the European Central Bank – and this matters in terms of political negotiations. The people of Ireland will no longer owe €28bn to dead banks, but to the ECB – which is legally prohibited from ever forgiving that or writing it off.

The second is Section 17, which gives the Minister the power to restructure any IBRC assets (and become a bank) as he wishes, without any Dáil oversight. This gives the Minister the power to issue bonds and issue a charge on public funds without scrutiny – which, Donnelly reckons, breaches the Constitutional insistence that the Dáil must approve any costs to the public.

Here’s the Irish Independent’s front page tomorrow, with the blaring headline: “NIGHT OF DRAMA AS €2BN ECB DEBT DEAL UNRAVELS”. It’s suggesting that the ECB, despite all of this hubbub about IBRC being abandoned, isn’t likely to approve the proposal being put to it by Patrick Honohan at all, and says the deal now “hangs in the balance”.

At this stage, this doesn’t really impact on the point of this Bill – the cat is out of the bag now, and IBRC needs to be wound up by tomorrow morning or else all hell will break loose in terms of the future of IBRC (and possibly its owner, the government, and the banks that the government owns).

All it proves is that… well, if this is part of the solution to the ECB promissory note problem, it’s not the final piece of the jigsaw.

Now. It’s midnight – so an official good morning to you all from TheJournal.ie HQ. It’s Gavan Reilly here to liveblog proceedings from the Dáil chamber as TDs debate emergency legislation to liquidate IBRC, the former Anglo Irish Bank.

Here’s the Ceann Comhairle to set the ball rolling (for the third time tonight), and here’s Michael Noonan.

Noonan: “The ECB is considering a proposal from the government” to end the promissory notes, part of which is the winding up of IBRC and its sale to NAMA. Once word got out about this, I needed to act to safeguard its assets and this means acting immediately.

Once this is passed, joint liquidators will be appointed to IBRC immediately. Its debts to the Central Bank will be purchased by NAMA, ensuring there is no capital loss to the Central Bank. Eligible depositors, bondholders and everyone else will be repaid under the bank guarantee schemes.

Noonan: As is common, all employment contracts are immediately liquidated, but the majority of the staff will be rehired by the liquidators as they need.

Following an independent valuation process, the liquidators will sell IBRC’s assets to third parties at (or above) their independent valuation. Failing that, they’ll sell them to NAMA for their valuation price. The money raised will be used to pay off creditors, with the usual procedures (meaning employees first). Unsecured creditors, including the Minister, will come last.

Noonan: Any remaining subsidiaries of IBRC will be wound up or sold. Once its obligations are sorted out, IBRC will cease to exist.

The minister is now going through the sections of the Bill and explaining what each one does. Again, if you missed the link earlier, here’s the Bill.

Noonan: All eligible deposits, up to €100,000 for an individual and €200,000 for two individuals with a joint account, are protected by Irish deposit guarantee schemes. Anything beyond that is covered by the other bank guarantee. The situation for most people – including those who hold deposits in IBRC – will remain unchanged.

The reason these steps are being undertaken has nothing to do with the management of the bank, Noonan says, thanking the senior management and Board of the bank for their work. “I regret the abruptness of how this decision was communicated” to the staff, Noonan says, citing the public interest.

Noonan says, again, that most of IBRC’s staff will be rehired by the liquidator – on the liquidator’s terms – to help wind down IBRC. Workers will get statutory redundancy, pension contributions, holiday pay, and all the usual obligations.

This will be a shock to the bank’s staff and customers, and liquidators will be instructed to deal with this as appropriately as possible.

Noonan wanted to bring this to the Dáil in tandem with a deal on the promissory notes, but understands that the ECB is still considering Honohan’s proposals and therefore he can’t do so for now.

Here’s Michael McGrath from Fianna Fáil, who says the way this has been handled is not good. This has been clearly up the government’s sleeve for some time, he says; it’s a shame that we’re being told we pose an immediate risk to IBRC if we don’t wind it up right now.

He’d have liked more detail about what those risks actually are, and is disappointed that the government hasn’t done more to explain these risks, given that word of this legislation has been around for many hours now.

Irrespective of whoever leaked these details first, McGrath says, they were immediately outdone by others who were happy to confirm the leak and to further the extent of the details known to the public.

McGrath: This has to be seen in context. This is a technical liquidation of IBRC which will involve all of its assets being given to NAMA, and worked out “in the fullness of time”. A normal liquidation means all of the assets being realised immediately – a fire sale, in other words. That’s not what’s happening here. IBRC will live on in a different form by having its assets transferred to NAMA.

McGrath wants more assurances from Noonan. “This Bill presents very fundamental questions.” He mentions firstly the many legal cases that IBRC is in, including its outstanding junior bondholders, and many others. “The best legal brains in this country and further afield will be poring over every single word, dot or comma in this legislation” to confer an advantage to their comments – so can Noonan guarantee that the legislation has been constitutionally proofed?

McGrath points out that only five months ago, Noonan ruled out merging IBRC and NAMA – so why basically do it now?

Also, what are the implications for IBRC’s outstanding unpaid bondholders? Will this result in burden-sharing with those bondholders?

McGrath now visits the topic of bank staff being laid off. He expects that the majority will be recruited by the liquidator, and then probably by NAMA… Can you give a guarantee that this is the case?

We’re working on good faith that not passing this bill exposes IBRC – and by extension the country itself – to substantial risk. We have no objection to IBRC being wound up immediately. But we do want a guarantee that the national interest is being fully protected by doing so.

McGrath: I hope there’s an ECB deal to announce tomorrow, but Fianna Fáil’s support will not be taken for granted. Last June’s agreement on separating banking and sovereign debt should be the objective of all our negotiations. How would it be fair if our total stock of bank debt is not reduced by a single cent?

McGrath: Based on today’s leaks, we’re going to be having a very long debate at some point. We’ll want the total stock of debt reduced. You’re apparently proposing to convert the promissory notes to a government bond, which can never again be restructured. This is a chance for Ireland to get the best deal we possibly can; that’s the prize at stake. [...] I hope that’s a deal that helps to relieve our burden, that people feel in their pockets and the domestic economy will benefit from.

Sinn Féin’s Pearse Doherty: This time last year we were asked to come to the chamber, and were told that the State had cobbled together a deal to avoid repaying last year’s promissory note. We were asked to applaud the government. As the mist faded and the cobwebs were dusted away, we realised that it would ultimately be repaying it anyway.

Doherty says the briefing that finance spokespersons were given earlier on never got to finish, because they were called back to the Dáil – so there are questions which were asked which haven’t yet been answered. One thing is clear, he says: the government intends to repay every last cent of the Anglo Irish Bank promissory notes.

The way this Bill is being pushed through is an “affront to democracy”, he says – it’s not fair to push through a law governing a €40bn bank and giving the Minister for Finance infinite power to do as he likes with it.

Doherty: If NAMA is buying assets from IBRC and it doesn’t make up their full price, the Minister (and the taxpayer) will be covering up the shortfall. “Those dodgy emails” between the Central Bank and Brian Lenihan come back to haunt us.

Doherty: IBRC has 850 employees in this state, and about 150 others in other jurisdictions. They’re not all on astronomical salaries, but they were told today – through Bloomberg – that their jobs were gone. “How can we stand over that?” Doherty asks.

Doherty: It’s easy to say, ‘pull on the green jersey and support this’ – when that’s exactly how Fianna Fáil’s administration led us into this fiscal mess in the first place.

The vast majority of government TDs have not read this legislation; of those who have read it, I’d say very few understand its consequences.

(And we have the first jeers of the night. Who had 12:35am in the sweetstake?)

Doherty then moves onto what he perceives as a culture of secrecy where the Department is not forthcoming with its tactics. It’s doing such a good job at shutting up information that we’re then rushed in here at midnight because the system has sprung a leak, he says.

Doherty: None of us know the full implications of this Bill. What we do know is that its powers are wide, and that this is part of a number of steps to ensure that my children and my grandchildren will be repaying the debts of criminals in Anglo.

Doherty: Nobody in Sinn Féin objects to liquidating Anglo, but that should mean that the promissory notes are not paid out. Here IBRC defaults, but the State picks up the tab for the promissory notes and everything else.

Doherty, amid jeers: The only vote before today on a promissory note was a Sinn Féin motion. There wasn’t even a vote when FF approved the issuing in the first place. It was Sinn Féin that put this issue on the agenda.

More jeers.

The Ceann Comhairle says he’ll kick out the next person who interrupts a speaker. Nicely, they’ll get the choice of which door to take.

Doherty: This house and every TD in it, and the public at home, deserves to know what’s going on. We’re told powers will be devolved, that the ECB would agree… but Noonan still hasn’t explained whether this will mean an easier Budget next year.

Last week we asked the Troika about banking debts and whether not repaying the promissory note would help the Budget for 2014. The Troika said this would be considered a windfall and would go towards repaying bailout loans.

Doherty asks Noonan: Do you expect our children, and our children’s children, to pay back the debts of IBRC? This legislation is a precursor to having further generations of children take on debt that is not theirs.

Shane Ross:

This is close to a fiasco. To leak a piece of information, as Deputy Doherty said, which was kept so confidential for so long, leaves us so vulnerable, that one wonders what’s going to be in the next part of it. The cabinet only signed off on this three quarters of an hour before we were briefed on it this evening. We were briefed for about 10 minutes. The civil servants who briefed us were efficient and well-meaning, but they certainly couldn’t answer some of our key questions.

Shane Ross says he’d also like to know how the State’s finances could be threatened by this leak, if the legislation isn’t sorted by the morning. “Is the real element the fear that once liquidation was leaked, there’d be people and parties in court in the morning attempting to frustrate it?”

We cannot vote for this if we don’t know the other part of the package. That is the problem with this bill. We are being asked in isolation to approve the liquidation of the bank, which we might approve of, when we don’t know the other part of the package tomorrow.

He takes issue with Section 17, which he points out gives the Minister the power to become a bank.

The Technical Group are sharing time between four TDs, so here’s Richard Boyd Barrett, saying Fianna Fáil bankrupted the country with a similar sort of late-night legislative programme.

RBB: “Pinning Anglo’s gambling debts permanently, securely, legally to the backs of the Irish people” is something that nobody should support. This is the single action that pins the debts to our back because it’ll be us and not the bank that will owe the money.

It’s no coincidence that this is being rammed through the week before a major trade union rally around the country, he concludes.

Now, here’s Joe Higgins:

This is a chaotic and grotesque way to run a State, by any standards.

He says the chaos of the Dáil is nicely poetic of the chaos of the “fiasco of high finance” which caused Ireland’s issues in the first place.

Higgins: “The poor and unemployed shall be bled through austerity to meet the bad gambling debts of the financial system.” It’s time for the public to rise up and demand a democratically owned financial system.

As gaeilge, he says it’s shameful that 800 people will now be dependant on a business decision from NAMA to remain in employment tomorrow. We must destroy this broken system.

Stephen Donnelly: As the Father of the Dáil, Enda Kenny knows it’s the constitutional obligation of the Dáil to hold the cabinet to account. This legislation has impacts for decades to come, and nobody’s had time to go through it. Is that keeping the cabinet to account? If we approve the Bill tonight we will have failed our obligation, he says.

Donnelly: I have no objection to protecting state assets in IBRC, but this does more: it means we now owe the money to the ECB, moving money from criminal and dead banks to the ECB which cannot ever write it down ever again.

Appropriation of public money is the gift of the Dáil, and not the cabinet: it’s entirely possible that this legislation could mean the Constitution is being breached. It is a fundamental erosion about parliamentary democracy.

Joanna Tuffy is sitting in the chair, and calls the Taoiseach: Fine Gael committed to replacing emergency promissory note lending with longer-term, more affordable financing, to stimulate investor confidence. The promissory notes represent a “highly onerous and unfair legacy” of the banking crisis, he says.

Irish taxpayers are due to pay €3.1bn next March, and every March until 2023, to cover Anglo’s losses. Including interest costs, the lifetime costs would be almost €48 billion. It’s an enormous burden for Irish taxpayers to bear.

Kenny: We’ll replace the promissory notes with a cheaper, longer-term instrument. A key element of doing this is the liquidation of IBRC, which itself is the wind-down vehicle for Anglo and Irish Nationwide. This Bill was approved by the Government this evening as a first step in a final comprehensive restructuring of the obligations placed on the Irish taxpayer.

The liquidation is necessary to secure the billions worth of IBRC assets owned by the Irish taxpayer.

Kenny: The disappearance of the former Anglo and Irish Nationwide is long overdue. Both were synonymous with reckless management and poor regulation, emblems of a culture of cronyism that undermined confidence in the economy and the political system. They were a stain on our international reputation, and a dent on our national pride.

Kenny: When the crisis broke, huge losses were realised not only in those two banks, but elsewhere. The policy of socialising the costs of private failure became a condition of the 2010 bailout programme, required by Brussels and Frankfurt where there was a fear that an Irish failure would unleash panic in Europe. Bond market financing for banks shut down anyway.

The belated recognition that this policy was an expensive failure came too late for this country and for our people. The bailout of bank creditors costs a “truly astonishing” €64 billion, or €35,000 for every single household in the country – over ten times the cost of a rescue anywhere else in Europe.

Kenny: IBRC cost us €35 billion, a “shocking extent” – almost €20,000 per household. It has weighed on struggling Irish families across the country.

Not all our public finance problems relate to the banks, but the suffering of the public has been made far worse by saving Anglo and Irish Nationwide. If not for the banks, Irish public debt levels would be below those of Germany.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin TD on Twitter: “This will be a very late night. #Dáil #promnight

Kenny: Last June, EU leaders resolved to split the vicious circle of banking and sovereign debts. Eurozone leaders have publicly recognised the unique circumstances behind Ireland’s crisis; we now need to see concrete steps to give effect to that commitment.

The ECB is the first of the European institutions to show its commitment to getting Ireland back to the markets. I believe restructuring the promissory notes will lead to a significant reduction in our funding requirements, boosting investor confidence and economic recovery.

Kenny: I believe that today’s agreement is a significant milestone: it closes a sad and tragic chapter in our history. We are now a poorer but perhaps a wiser people.

Let there be no doubt that this decision is not a silver bullet.

Eamon Gilmore: By dissolving IBRC, we are doing what should have been done on the night of the bank guarantee. We should have wound up Anglo and Irish Nationwide that very night. The last government was forced to seek international help because it didn’t do so.

Gilmore: We are continuing our negotiations with the European institutions on other aspects of this package, including the bad promissory note deal that killed us to begin with.

There were those who said that the negotiation couldn’t be done – and those who said we’d fail in those negotiations. There were those who predicted failure at every twist and turn – and there are some with difficulty saying Ireland is succeeding.

Gilmore: This week rumours began to circulate about the future of IBRC, which constituted a potential financial risk. Today those risks had become too great to sustain, and in line with a contingency plan that has been in place for several months, we are tonight liquidating it. This is necessary to secure the value of the assets that it holds.

Gilmore: This is an anxious time for the staff of IBRC. All will acknowledge that no blame lies with them. Many have worked only in recent times and have worked to secure its assets in the public interests. It is intended that the majority of those staff will be employed by the liquidator, at least for some time.

Gilmore: The legacy of so-called ‘tail risk’ is important to address to ensure that Ireland gets out of the bailout programme. By getting rid of these “notorious” institutions, the markets will have a better idea of the risk associated with investing in Ireland.

Gilmore: The Irish people have endured great loss at the hands of the bankers. The measures to save the banks were wrong. Since coming to office, we’ve worked with the Troika and Europe to redesign the programme bit by bit. Tonight we take another important step.

There is no one step that will right all the wrongs, no fairytale solution to bring us where we ought to be. What we are doing is patiently negotiating as we need.

Gilmore: The significance of liquidating Anglo will not be lost on the Irish people. This is another step forward to a day we can face forward as a people, when the past recedes and when Ireland can see the future it truly deserves.

I’m very disappointed by contributions from some members of the opposition. Michael McGrath didn’t mention Fianna Fáil’s role in this crisis; others who had called for the winding up of IBRC are now critical when we do so.

Gilmore: On the very night we introduce legislation to wind up Anglo, the only thing we hear is a scramble to find an argument to oppose it. The arguments were bizarre, ridiculous and bear no examination by anyone who wants to see a serious debate on them.

FF leader Micheál Martin: The Taoiseach should have called the leaders in this evening to brief them on what was unfolding. Likewise, Minister Noonan. It’s unfair that opposition members haven’t a chance to table amendments to this vital Bill.

Martin: I commend Michael Noonan for making a matter-of-fact speech in the context of the bill, avoiding the grandstanding that the Taoiseach and Tánaiste went for. There are many on the government benches who got there by looking for a political angle.

Martin: Even when circumstances are exceptional, and the government has the majority to force anything through, it is our duty and responsibility to act accordingly. Everyone supports a deal to lighten the impact of banking debt on Ireland.

Martin: It’s not ideal that we’re told this is part of an ECB solution, but we don’t have any detail on it. Indeed, we’re told the ECB negotiations with Governor Honohan are continuing. His skills are considerable, and he’s worked tirelessly to do well. We keep wishing him well in his quest.

Martin: When you came into power, there were €36 billion in unguaranteed and unsecured bonds. €16 billion of that has since been paid.

Pat Rabbitte is barracking Martin from the government benches. “I’m saying very calmly what the truth is. You don’t like the truth,” says Martin. “You’re being disorderly.”

Martin: The leak of information which caused this emergency tonight should be investigated. It is to be hoped that this does not cause more problems in the search for a deal.

It appears to us in Fianna Fáil that this legislation is a legitimate part in lessening the impact of banking debt on the public finances. We’re told this is not last-minute so the government should be in a position to answer some of our questions.

Martin: We have no objection to the wind-up of IBRC and its absorption into NAMA, though I do welcome the Taoiseach’s conversion to NAMA – an institution that the Taoiseach hated in opposition.

Sinn Féin’s Pearse Doherty on Twitter:

IBRC – Government is winding up the bank, but not winding up the Debt.

Martin: IBRC is still picking up €14bn of debts, so every effort needs to be made to ensure that this continues uninterrupted.

Will the expertise of IBRC’s staff be retained? Will Noonan give an assurance that every single debt owed to IBRC is kept up?

Martin: I’d like Michael Noonan to explain the Pauline conversion to the virtues of NAMA on the other side of the house, and why it’s necessary to extend the powers of an institution the government would rather didn’t exist.

And what happens if an ECB is not concluded tomorrow? What are the implications for the government in that case? And what will happen to the national debt?

Sinn Féin’s Gerry Adams: The citizens we represent have been listening to media speculation since mid-afternoon, but here we are at 1:30am and we’ve been told nothing about this. The most revealing part of Noonan’s comments came at the end: ‘I would have preferred to be introducing this bill in tandem with an agreement from the European Central Bank’. Why can’t the Dáil be told what these proposals are in the first place?

Adams: We’re being presented with legislation in a vacuum. We got the legislation late, and we can’t propose amendments – most TDs can’t even speak on it! After two years of supposedly intense and technical negotiations, we’re being rushed into approving this in two hours.

Adams: We have learned to our cost that rushed legislation is bad legislation. What happens if this comes through? Will we see stability and growth? Four months after the supposed October deadline to split sovereign and bank debts, we seem no closer.

Adams: This bill turns bad banking debt into sovereign debt. You might be winding up Anglo as an institution, but not its debt. We don’t accept that paying IBRC’s debts – and just extending the repayments – is a good deal for taxpayers. The promissory note should not be paid because it is not our debt to pay.

Adams: We don’t know what Ireland’s economic circumstances might be by the time these bonds mature – we can’t leave this debt as a legacy for further generations.

Adams: There will be no relief in what this government is doing; there will be no relief in the relentless austerity being pursued simply to bail out bankers: more PRSI, more taxes, fewer classrooms, fewer jobs, fewer Gardaí, fewer nurses. A credible end to all of this will need to bring relief to citizens. There have been six austerity Budgets, taking €26bn out of the economy.

We have long supported closing IBRC, but we can’t accept turning its debt into sovereign debt. Not our debt. Never was.

Adams: We’re calling on citizens to protest their opposition to what Labour and Fine Gael are doing.

There’ll be five TDs from the technical group speaking for two minutes each. First is Mattie McGrath, who regrets voting for the bank guarantee.

McGrath: You’re here tonight goading the opposition. You voted for the bank guarantee, and yet you turn around and tell us tonight we’re voting for this. This gives far too much power to people who are unelected.

McGrath: You’re giving carte blanche to a new type of receiver. NAMA is like a wild animal in the woods, and you’re now feeding it.

The Taoiseach is a “disgrace to your mandate,” he says. “This is a sad day for Ireland. We cannot saddle the Irish people.”

Mattie’s not letting up. “Finally you got the liathróidí and stood up to the ECB… this is a farce. Ye can laugh all you like but you voted for the bank guarantee. Now here you are, you’re wearing the clothes of the former Taoiseach.”

Mick Wallace: How does this look to the people of Ireland watching tonight? It doesn’t take care of their concerns, but those of the financial markets. Tonight will not bring financial comfort to the Irish people.

Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan: This Bill is nothing but cover to move the promissory notes from this supposed ‘bank’ to the ECB. It will, if ye vote for it, crystallise this as national debt. It will facilitate the situation whereby you will be able to turn something that is not our debt into a long-term mortgage.

We were told by Ruairí Quinn and Brian Hayes that our debt was not sustainable and something needed to be done about it. How much is this going to save? … If our debt was unsustainable before this, how the hell does this make it any more sustainable?

Ming: The problem started with joining the Euro. People like Anthony Coughlan said it would end in tears – you set up a Frankenstein currency, with interest rates controlled by Germany, never suited us. Anthony Coughlan was laughed at that day; today what he said has come true. By voting for this, you start the process of putting a debt on our backs and our children’s backs that ye didn’t get a mandate for.

Catherine Murphy: I’m trying to visualise how this would be if this debate was held in tandem with a deal that didn’t include a debt write-down. The Minister wanted to do this in tandem with a deal: will he give us a commitment that he’ll bring that finalised agreement for our approval here? Or will Section 17 [which gives him the power to issue new bonds and notes] be a monster that gives immense power to an individual that can act in the absence of any oversight?

Murphy: Any deal that does not include a write-down of the debt is not an acceptable deal. it is not our debt. Burden-sharing should not be between us and the generations to come.

Thomas Pringle: We learned more from Twitter tonight than the government told us in its contribution. That’s the level that democracy, under your watch, has sunk to. Come out and tell us what the deal is, and what risks make this Bill necessary.

What is certain is that the ECB will get every penny of the promissory notes. The best that we can hope for is that we get a reduction on the 8% interest rate and extend it out for 40 years.

Pringle: The Taoiseach said this deal was ending a “dark chapter in our history”. What deal? Did the Taoiseach get your speeches mixed up?

Here’s Michael Noonan to reply to the opposition contributions. He thanks everyone who contributed.

Did you ever hear of a liquidation that was announced one day, but not carried out for several days or weeks? If that isn’t done, creditors will line up to strip the company of everything they can lay their hands on.

Noonan: IBRC’s assets are worth between €12bn and €14bn; as soon as credible information was circulated by international agencies this afternoon, and when we weren’t in a position to deny it, we had to act. Of course we couldn’t deny it, it’s quite obviously from the legislation it wasn’t prepared this afternoon. We had to move.

Noonan: I would suggest that anyone with fears not concentrate about the detail, and look at the purpose of the Bill. The purpose of the Bill is to put a special liquidator, with special powers, into IBRC first thing tomorrow morning when the President signs it, so that €14 billion in assets are protected. I would ask deputies of the house to give us the power to protect those assets.

Noonan: We can easily commit to debating any promissory notes deal in the house. That’s no problem.

Has this been constitutionally proofed? Most deputies know that when a stamped copy has been provided by the attorney-general, we know it’s been constitutionally proofed. Otherwise we could not bring it into the house, so ipso factum, it’s proofed.

Noonan: A number of people have issue with Section 17. Those powers have always existed, and merely delegated to the NTMA – this is how Ireland issues bonds and securities in the first place. The Acts of 2009 to nationalise Anglo had a similar power. It’s part of Irish law already.

Noonan: Why would we have to ask now? I think we’ve dealt with that. I don’t think anyone would stand over a situation that we should have let that situation develop, where the assets of the bank would be impaired in the way described. The opposition would be rightfully very critical of any government that would allow that to happen.

There’s power under the Act for the minister to direct a liquidator. The same person from KPMG who has already secured the property today will be the special liquidator; I will lay a copy of the instructions for them into the Oireachtas library to be accessible to all.

Noonan: Regarding the future of IBRC staff: There’s another set of IBRC staff who have the skills to cover a de-leveraging (wind-down) of the bank; I can’t give any more comfort than that. The majority of the “very skilled” IBRC staff will be re-employed for a considerable period.

Noonan: The liquidator’s premises in Dublin, London and New York have all been secured by the creditor. We’d prefer to be doing all of this together; we can’t give notice of a liquidation, or not deny it, and then stand back.

And so we head to a vote – and the Dail bells will ring for a few moments to allow absent TDs to enter the chamber ahead of the vote.

We’re pulling together a voting chart, by the way, so we’ll have a list of who voted – and how – on second stage as soon as we can manage it.

The Dail has voted by 113 votes to 36 to approve the Bill at Second Stage.

Officially we now move to ‘committee stage’, where amendments are voted on; of course, this being an emergency, there hasn’t been time to propose any.

There’s now some general procedural chatter in the Dáil, before members get to debating ‘Section 1′ – which is the actual title of the Bill, allowing for a slightly less rigid Q-and-A on the Bill. Members want to know what happens to IBRC staff tomorrow – do they show up for work? What is the basis for a ministerial guarantee of NAMA’s new debts?

Richard Boyd Barrett particularly wants to establish whether the workers being laid off enjoy the same statutory redundancy entitlements as anyone else who loses a job.

Mattie McGrath wants to amend the legislation so that any existing court cases against IBRC can continue in court and don’t need anyone else’s approval to do so.

Michael Noonan responds to the questions from various TDs. Pearse Doherty’s question about a ‘security’ that the Minister for Finance can issue – Noonan says this is already defined.

As to the ‘risks’ posed by not bringing this legislation in right now? Again, Noonan says, you can’t tell someone that a company will go into liquidation and then give them the chance to go to court and immediately frustrate that process. IBRC’s assets are at risk if this legislation is not in place by the morning.

He says we all share the concerns about the future of the staff but is confident that the skills of IBRC’s workforce are valuable enough to warrant being taken on by either NAMA, who will take over most of IBRC’s assets, or by the liquidator.

Noonan tells Mattie McGrath that he understands his fear about ongoing legal cases, but ensures him that any legal cases currently being processed are assured of the security of the courts system. Nobody currently in a court case need worry about the effect of this case.

Pearse Doherty wants to call up a question about the “existing ministerial guarantee” that the Bill discusses when it says that NAMA’s shortfall will be covered if it can’t get a fair value for IBRC’s assets.

Stephen Donnelly wants a straightforward statement that the proposed ECB deal would mean that the equivalent to promissory notes debts are owed to the ECB instead. Further, can he indicate just how soon an ECB deal might be finalised?

John Halligan wants an affirmation from Noonan that this deal means there cannot be a write-down on Ireland’s currently outstanding promissory notes.

Richard Boyd Barrett similarly wants an assurance that this deal means we’ll be repaying the full amount of the promissory notes – and specifically, whether an agreement to repay every cent of it is a condition of extending the timeframe for repaying it in the first place.

Michael Noonan, in response, goes to RBB first: “It’s a bit late at night for conspiracy theories.”

Noonan to Doherty: Ministerial guarantees offered by Brian Lenihan are not supported by emails, so it doesn’t arise in this issue. There were letters, fully formed letters, exchanged. In so far as there is a ministerial guarantee, they are in letters from the previous finance minister. A guarantee is a guarantee… we intend to honour guarantees. But they are not the primary issue here.

Noonan summarises the Bill for Donnelly by saying it creates NAMA as a “purchaser of last resort” for IBRC’s assets. On the timescale for the ECB, “there isn’t any deal one”. He says, however, that he may be in a position to answer many of the questions tomorrow.

If a deal had been done today, the first element would be what we are having done tonight.

He says the orderly transfer of liquidating IBRC in an orderly way would always have been the first step in a deal.

And so we proceed to our final vote – with John Halligan angry that his question on a write-down wasn’t answered before the final vote was called.

This next vote encompasses committee stage, report stage and final stage all at once – meaning it’s the Dáil’s final vote on passing this Bill. Assuming it’s passed, it’ll go straight across the corridor to the Seanad.

Labour rebel TD Patrick Nulty on Twitter:

deeply undemocratic process in the dail tonight. absolutely no intention of voting for this new blank cheque. #anglonotourdebt

Throughout the night we’ve been running a poll on whether you support the government’s plan to convert promissory notes into a long-term government bond, if it means that it’ll become part of national debt and kicked down the road for a few decades.

Nearly 3,500 of you have voted so far – and of those of you who did, 48% of you said No, and 36% said you weren’t sure. Only 15 per cent supported the idea.

Here comes the vote…

APPROVED. 113 votes to 35. The Bill will be sent to the Seanad (providing nobody calls a walk-through vote to repeat this whole caper…)

No, no such caper. The Dáil is adjourned until 1pm tomorrow, and the Bill moves to the Seanad.

Well, after a bit of a tech hiccup, it seems like the end of the Dáil proceedings seems like a sensible time to bring the liveblog to a close. While we were away, we updated the Dáil voting chart to reflect how TDs divided in the final vote.

We’ll leave the stream running above so you can watch proceedings from the Seanad, but for now, that’s the end of our text commentary. Thank you all for your comments and company on this hectic night.

Photo: Here’s the schedule for the Dáil’s late-night IBRC sitting

Reaction: Chief Whip says leaking of elements of IBRC plan is ‘unfortunate’

Read: President Higgins returning to Ireland to consider IBRC legislation

Poll: Do you support swapping the promissory note for long-term bonds?

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255 Comments
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    Mute Patrick Daly
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    Mar 19th 2016, 12:59 PM

    They are not being evicted their leases are not being renewed. If you don’t own your property you are at the mercy of the owners who have not broken any law unlike the moron politicians advocating people to break the law and risk prison

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    Mute Wally Mooney
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:32 PM

    Of course the landlords don’t have to break the law as the law is written with the interests of capital in mind. So Goldman Sachs profiteering takes priority over the rights of families to have a roof over their heads.

    P.S. Can you point to any cases where a failure to abide by a notice to quit has resulted in imprisonment for a tenant?

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    Mute Graham Blackwell
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:44 PM

    The law is suppose to be there to protect the people especially family’s who are the backbone of our society, tell me how the law is protecting these people before corporate greed and profit. The law is now being wrote by mostly people who only have one thing in mind “money” , if you value these laws more than your own people, you have become part of the problem, your morals have been standardised to value their greed before peoples well being. Reality check, start giving a fu*k about people instead of pieces of paper that help destroy peoples lives. BTW mass evictions like will start being the norm in estates all across the country this year as the vultures have been set loose on our little isle.

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    Mute LITTLEONE
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:48 PM

    What about people that are not renting but have a mortgage… Are they safe. No. Who knows whose mortgage has IR will be sold to a vulture fund .
    This week a farmer in nenagh sadly took his life after a mortgage company destroyed him with 25% interest rate … 25% .. No protection …

    95
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    Mute Patrick Daly
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:54 PM

    Grangegorman case springs to mind

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    Mute Wally Mooney
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:27 PM

    Were any of the Grangegorman protesters jailed for a failure to abide by a notice to quit?

    The AAA will also do everything in our power to mobilize the community in defense of those families to prevent any possible evictions.

    In addition, we’ll use our elected TDs to apply massive political pressure to the establishment parties to force them into action on this matter. This has been proven to be an effective strategy in the past where our occupation of a NAMA property and a developer’s show house in Dublin 15 forced the allocation of 44 social houses in Dublin West.

    http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2015111800066?opendocument

    Obedience and compliance is a recipe for exploitation and misery. Solidarity and protest works as we’ve demonstrated conclusively during the water charges boycott.

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    Mute Dawes30
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:33 PM

    Brian O’Donnell?

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    Mute Tim
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:33 PM

    I’m not too sure what the penalty for squatting is. Socialism has caused pain and misery for millions the world over it needs to be rejected. Drive, ambition, initiative and entrepeneurship are things we need to encourage and promote

    49
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    Mute Wally Mooney
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:36 PM

    No

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    Mute Wally Mooney
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:40 PM

    Really Tim?

    Socialism is working all around you in every developed nation in the world. It’s manifested in universal health and education, public housing, social welfare system, 40 hour working week, public pensions, minimum wage etc etc. All the most civilized aspects of modern society are socialist in nature. None of these concessions were gifted by the capitalist class. They were fought for and won over centuries of struggle by the working class.

    And indeed if capitalism is the panacea you believe it to be then why is capitalism the economic ideology pursued in most of the world’s poorest countries? These include DRC, Liberia, Eritrea, Zimbabwe, Burundi CAR, Uganda and Bangladesh etc.etc etc

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    Mute Patrick Daly
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:50 PM

    Again not eviction! So your solution is if you don’t like something that’s happening legally is just go ahead and break the law,real responsible and fantastic example to set

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    Mute Jarrett moon
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:14 PM

    Well said Patrick. However the spa’s on here don’t understand facts. Much better to be populist and angry.

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    Mute Meelick Change
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:28 PM

    Capitalism has led us to a situation where Speculators gamble on a mortgage bond performing or not. It’s has led us to a situation where these capitalist Speculators invest in financial instruments and when it goes wrong and these speculators have been bailed out by society. That isn’t capitalism Tim. When you gamble on the stock market or put money into financial instruments and it does not work out you loose your money etc. Also we have all heard of low risk, medium risk and high risk investments. If I invest in an instrument and it fails I may loose my money. The bank bailouts are one of the biggest cons in human history. I mean the socialisation of private debt. That is socialism practiced by failed capitalists

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Mar 19th 2016, 4:28 PM

    Tim, my GF lived under communist rule into her early teenage years. She never suffered pain nor misery. Me, being very curious about socialism, and herself have had many discussions of what life was actually like under such a regime. People had jobs, a roof over their heads, food on the table, heat in the homes, good free education to the highest level, all their medical need well taken care of. A sense of community and looking after people that still lives on to a great extent. There were some shortages in shops, and queuing became a sport. Personal freedom was the biggest problem. The freedom to travel, to have an opinion and the right to express it, you could never criticise the party. As kids in school, you learned never to speak of what was said behind closed doors at home. Kids were encouraged to do so. But in general life was ok. Many people still hanker back to those days. The main difference between then and today is that under socialism people mattered, as they have found, under capitalism the only thing that matters is profit. People dont. What’s happening in Tyrrelstown is a prime example of where profit comes before people. The lives of the people dont matter, how they are effected doesn’t matter. Naked capitalism is tyranny. It doesn’t matter if its the tyranny of communism or capitalism. Tyranny is tyranny.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 4:49 PM

    “Personal freedom was the biggest problem. The freedom to travel, to have an opinion and the right to express it, you could never criticise the party”

    “But in general life was ok”

    Interesting post – but clearly the loss of personal freedom, freedom to travel and having an opinion is a high price to pay for an “ok life”?

    18
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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Mar 19th 2016, 5:29 PM

    Pantylyndo, there is a lot more detail i could go into, but i’d be writing all night. I was trying to give a flavour, to counter Tim’s assertion that socialism is all “pain and misery”. My GF hates communism, and never wishes to see it again.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 5:33 PM

    “My GF hates communism, and never wishes to see it again.”

    But isn’t this the point? I mean there may have been aspects that may have (appeared to have) worked and of course some could be adapted – but clearly for all the positives – your GF and many others hated it.

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    Mute Mike Hall
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    Mar 19th 2016, 5:47 PM

    I think the point here for the brain dead muppets lauding Capitalism and trashing Socialism is that it is NOT a simple binary choice – one or the other. In reality, the extremes of both will fail, but for different reasons.

    A more pragmatic approach is called for imo.

    In this matter the issue is housing – homes for people. These are essential for all of us for a life of basic dignity and should not be the exclusive domain of a ruthless Capitalist (rigged) market.

    Tyrrelstown is a perfect example of unacceptable Capitalist behaviour in a market with captive demand for an essential good.

    Poor or no housing destroys lives, social mobility and the equality of opportunity for the next generation. We KNOW all this as FACT, from any number of studies. Social deprivation COSTS us a great deal, but the wealthy don’t pay, only ordinary citizens, disproportionately.

    It is immoral and unacceptable for people, usually the already wealthy, to make obscene levels of unearned income off a rigged property market.

    If that wasn’t bad enough, the greed of the rigged property market was primary cause of the Financial pyramid scam crash in 2008.

    We don’t ever need to ‘nationalise’ some manufacturer of consumer goods if the go bust, but we should absolutely be ensuring collective provision of somewhere to live. Both as a human right, AND as a more optimal strategy for society as a whole, and in the long term.

    But such is the mass propaganda by vested interests, and appeal to unallayed selfishness and myopia, at least half of the citizens vote against their own long term interests. Wake up, idiots.

    22
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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 6:12 PM

    Mike Hall, the same arguments as are now being deployed against protection of fixity of tenure and fair rent fir rural tenants from 1878 onwards, including arguments made on behalf of large landlords to the Bessborough Commission are being repeated today.

    There will always be those with a vested interested in assisting and promoting the interests of the super wealthy at the expense of lower income households, without regard for the social and family consequences. For some, extreme cupidity is perceived as some sort of moral good.

    People such as you who provide reasoned, reasonable and humane suggestions are disliked by the opportunists and speculators because they cannot bear to reminded of the fact that there is a greater interest than individual self interest at the expense of others.

    The problem for those who oppose reform is that the housing crisis, if not addressed, will cause massive political conflict and social upheaval. Large sections of the population can become radicalised when the basics of a secure home and the opportunity of a working life with dignity are removed.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 6:25 PM

    “I think the point here for the brain dead muppets lauding Capitalism and trashing Socialism is that it is NOT a simple binary choice – one or the other. In reality, the extremes of both will fail, but for different reasons.”

    Are you responding to my post? Well let me remind you what I said:

    “I mean there may have been aspects that may have (appeared to have) worked and of course some could be adapted”.

    Was I advocating a “binary choice” – no, I was clearly saying that some aspects could be adapted.

    Clearly having an opinion is against what you stand for Mike – which is what the poster referred to.

    We know what happened in the crash.

    But I can tell you people would love to be back there, this is what you don’t account for, they want their homes to be assets, they want to make money on property – human nature.

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Mar 19th 2016, 7:06 PM

    Pantylyndo, The Party system was what was wrong. If you had no reason to rock the boat, and accepted you lot, life was good. If you were ambitious, you joined the Party, if you were allowed, not everyone could. The higher you went up in the party, the more the privileges , the better the food, no shortages. My GF’s mother was the grand daughter of a mill owner. When communism came in 1945 he lost everything, was considered an enemy of the people. That stigma effect my GF’s mother all through her life under communism. She was a Republican rowing champion, competed internationally, but was never chosen for any Olympics, all because of her grandfather. She could never go to university, and there was always a very low glass ceiling she could never rise above. That was the Communist Party.

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    Mute Michael J
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    Mar 19th 2016, 7:41 PM

    The vulture fund people aren’t the ones people need protection from. It’s the fat cats in NAMA who sold them these properties for a nice bit of commission and with the promise that there will be no problems after buying the lots. Who created NAMA? The government. I don’t think they will be sending the cavalry anytime soon.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 7:43 PM

    Wow Dave, hard to comprehend really, I can see why your GF feels the way she does, thanks for the info.

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Mar 19th 2016, 8:06 PM

    Welcome, Pantylyndo :-) By the way, in school, Lenin was always referred to as “Uncle Lenin” !

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    Mute Matthew O' Reilly
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    Mar 20th 2016, 4:58 PM

    Why the Government have dithered at Credit Union proposals to offer 5 billion loan to get the building of homes started, is evident when you look at what’s happening out in Tyrrelstown in North County Dublin; Goldman Sachs buying up two hundred rented homes, and evicting the occupants; who’ve been living in and rearing children for ten years and more.
    It beggars belief, but the truth is that the FG FF cabals represented by Denis the Philistine O’ Brien from Blackrock, and Peter the ”Jew” Sutherland, who is CEO of Goldman Sachs and, a Fine Gael man from Dublin 4 are behind what is going on here. These two people are numbered among the first named as Americas and Germany’s Irish representatives of secret vulture fund enterprise holders, these people secure the possession of these very valuable Irish properties for wealthy American and European Hedge funds. Threatening the very existence of our Independent Irish Nation.
    This enterprise and illegal ownership of vast tracts of Irish building land and other extremely valuable property, has been going on apace since the early decades of the last century. Copper fashioned by the FG FF Shonnens since 1926. It is a little bit like the Royal Family believing they have a devine right to rule. FF and FG believe they are politically invincible. The legitimate owners of Ireland, as it were. These two along with others have had their greasy hands deep in the stash of Irish cash and property belonging to the people of Ireland since the establishment of the Irish State..

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    Mute Paul
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    Mar 19th 2016, 12:49 PM

    18 months is a very fair amount of time to look for somewhere and it prehaps gives time for new construction in the area.

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    Mute For Connolly
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    Mar 19th 2016, 12:50 PM

    Can we take it you’re not one of the people facing eviction ‘paul’?

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    Mute Suzie Sunshine
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    Mar 19th 2016, 12:56 PM

    Agreed Paul . 18 months seems fair .

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    Mute Neal Ireland Hello
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:08 PM

    If not 18 months, what would be a fair amount of time to move out of a home that you don’t own? Five years? A decade? Until the lowest poimt of the next recession?

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    Mute Deborah Behan
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:50 PM

    200 families looking for accommodation in the same area is going to push up rents and I doubt there is going to be 200 properties in the market anyway. Scary situation.

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    Mute Lisa Saputo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:32 PM

    I’ve been “evicted” twice and each time all I got was 28 days notice. It’s stressful but a fact of life if you rent. I honestly don’t understand the hysteria around this.

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:53 PM

    Lisa, it depends on whether you have children in local schools and whether you have the financial capacity to pay much increased rents for alternative rented accommodation.

    People put down roots, become members of community, children have friends, they are familiar with teachers, child minding arrangements are in place. The adverse impact of familes moving goes far beyond mild disruption and is more severe, the lower the household income is.

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:59 PM

    Paul, new housing cannot and will not come on stream within 18 months unless the projects are already financed. Please identify these financed projects, where are they located, what number of units will be provided and what will the rent of these new units be?

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    Mute AN other
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:03 PM

    The problem with this Lisa is that the vulture fund bought these houses in the cheap at the taxpayers expense and now that very same taxpayer is getting shafted. Whether it’s the taxpayer living in the houses or the taxpayer that owns the local business that now has 200 fewer people in the catchment area

    The other problem is that commenters here would like to see this vulture fund get away with it and throw the gates open for this to happen again and again, and again!

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    Mute Mike Hall
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    Mar 19th 2016, 5:18 PM

    No, 18mths is not enough time where so many families in a mass eviction case will all be looking for new tenancies in the same area.

    One could reasonably argue that one or two families could find alternative accomodation, but not dozens in one go. Not at all.

    Further, the reasons for these evictions are purely for gouging excess profits solely because of an artificially created shortage of housing supply.

    I cannot understand the fools that voted for FG, FF or Labour, as ALL these parties seek to ensure ever increasing housing costs by squeezing supply, so that their Golden Circle friends can get even richer.

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    Mute Mike Hall
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    Mar 19th 2016, 5:23 PM

    Lisa Saputo

    Did you have a family? Children with local schools and friends? Were you competing with 100 other families to relocate in the same area, at the same time? In a situation of severe housing crisis, such as now?

    Put yourself in these peoples’ position and perhaps for once your life try a little empathy. Houses are homes and vital stability for most people past a certain age of youth.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 5:50 PM

    So screw Lisa and anyone else who has found themselves in this situation Mike eh?

    You have to fit a certain type that get your sympathy I see.

    I have to laugh when people who have been through the very same thing – are spoken down to here – their situation is never as bad, their family situation never as important, their roots irrelevant.

    But if if can make headlines then you lot are on it like a hot snot.

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 6:21 PM

    Why was Lisa Saputo “evicted” twice? What caused this to happen? Was it a default on a buy to let mortgage or an unacceptably high rent increase? If personal experience is to be generalised from, we need much more detailed information about when, why and in what circumstances of the “evictions”.

    I have never found logic in the argument that because one person has suffered from miserablle or unfortunate experiences, other and even more persons should suffer even more.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 6:36 PM

    “Why was Lisa Saputo “evicted” twice? What caused this to happen? Was it a default on a buy to let mortgage or an unacceptably high rent increase? If personal experience is to be generalised from, we need much more detailed information about when, why and in what circumstances of the “evictions”.

    So in Lisa’s situation all of this matters?

    “I have never found logic in the argument that because one person has suffered from miserablle or unfortunate experiences, other and even more persons should suffer even more.”

    But yet your logic ignores that lisa was left in the same situation:

    “Eviction or lease expiry, the practical consequence is the same, tenants seeking alternative accommodation in a scarce supply market with inflating rents. This is very bad news for the tenants involved. Some may end up homeless.”

    I rest my case.

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    Mute Mike Hall
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    Mar 19th 2016, 6:55 PM

    No Patlyndo, you totally miss the point again and throw up another straw man argument.

    The point is that Lisa doesn’t seem concerned (by her own comment) at being evicted twice with only 28 days notice. A young single person may not be concerned about that but she ignores (or diesn’t care) that it would be a different matter for a whole family to be forced to move house. And a different and far worse situation for a mass of eviction of families from the same location.

    But I think your approach is obvious Pat. You are ok, and care nothing for the housing situation of others. A selfish s cum bag in other words. Likely invested in property yourself, but too ashamed to either admit it or post here under your real name.

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 7:03 PM

    Partlyndo, thank you for quoting me but why are your counter arguments so feeble? Resting your case may sound well in court but it does not constitute an argument of any kind.

    The surprising feature of Lisa Saputo is her invocation of her own “eviction” twice as a validation fir evicting others. It really makes no sense.

    Mike Hall has properly identified that there is a difference between one induvidual with no dependants being evicted and a family with children at school, with local friends, belonging to local sports clubs, members of community groups being dislocated. Mike raises fair points. Why do you evade dealing with his reasoned arguments?

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 7:56 PM

    “The point is that Lisa doesn’t seem concerned (by her own comment) at being evicted twice with only 28 days notice. A young single person may not be concerned about that but she ignores (or diesn’t care) that it would be a different matter for a whole family to be forced to move house. And a different and far worse situation for a mass of eviction of families from the same location.”

    No Mike, the point is that nobody was concerned when Lisa was evicted twice with 28 days notice, so Lisa just had to do what she had to do.

    “A young single person may not be concerned about that but she ignores (or diesn’t care) that it would be a different matter for a whole family to be forced to move house. ”

    Like you don’t care about Lisa – irrespective if she’s single or not – you speak down to her as if her situation didn’t matter. It’s all relative really,

    “And a different and far worse situation for a mass of eviction of families from the same location.”

    But that’s not what is happening is it? Leases as they fall due will not be renewed, that means for some it’s 6 weeks, for others longer, many have time now to make other plans – like everyone else in the same situation on a weekly/daily basis for the last few years sadly.

    @Fiona:

    “Partlyndo, thank you for quoting me but why are your counter arguments so feeble? Resting your case may sound well in court but it does not constitute an argument of any kind.”

    I’m quoting you to show you your own hypocrisy because clearly you don’t see it.

    “The surprising feature of Lisa Saputo is her invocation of her own “eviction” twice as a validation fir evicting others. It really makes no sense.”

    No, that’s your interpretation of her post, Lisa, like many others found themselves in that situation, not once but twice and she had to simply deal with it – no AAA, no protests, no media – she had to dealn with it.

    “Mike Hall has properly identified that there is a difference between one induvidual with no dependants being evicted and a family with children at school, with local friends, belonging to local sports clubs, members of community groups being dislocated. Mike raises fair points. Why do you evade dealing with his reasoned arguments?”

    No, Mike Hall did not deal with it – Mike Hall presumed that Lisa didn’t have any of the above issues and Mike Hall wrote her off without a thought or concern.

    And both Mike Hall and you have no idea of the personal circumstances of all the residents, you don’t know if they all have kids – you and Mike Hall need to stop with the hysterics and behaving as if these people would shoved out on the road overnight – this has not happened and it will not happen.

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 8:26 PM

    I saw the interviews with the residents on television. The vast majority of those who received notices to quit have young familes of children attending local schools. This was confirmed by a local estate agent living in the area.

    The facts remains that these families will not be able to secure alternative housing in the area and will have to relocate elsewhere.

    As for Lisa Saputo, I have considerable doubts as to the accuracy of her personal statements and do not believe that her individual experience, dubious as it s. Is s sensible foundation for policy making.

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    Mute Mike Hall
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    Mar 19th 2016, 9:37 PM

    Patlyndo…. what on earth are yoy rambling on about you utter clown?

    “… Mike Hall wrote her off without a thought or concern…. ”

    Huh?

    In her own words, above -

    “..I’ve been “evicted” twice… ”

    Note the use of ‘I’, not ‘we’ or ‘my family’, or any other collective noun. ie seems to be saying to me that she is single and no other family to be concerned with.

    She seems very casual about having to move home twice with 28 days notice… so why SHOULD I have ‘concern’ – according to you – for Lisa’s situation when she herself doesn’t? Please explain how your clown brain managed to arrive at your idiotic conclusion?

    “… It’s stressful but a fact of life if you rent. I honestly don’t understand the hysteria around this…. ” – Lisa

    Her eviction experience doesn’t seem to merit mentioning anyone else’s ‘stress’, does it Patlyndo? Did you notice that?

    And that changes the situation enormously. Which is what I posited and Lisa has not deemed fit to correct or expand on her particular circumstances.

    This is just basic English language comprehension Patlyndo…. talikng to you is like arguing with a monkey

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 10:24 PM

    The claimed 28 days notice period for Lisa Saputo makes me highly suspicious.

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    Mute Vladimir Vasyectomy
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    Mar 19th 2016, 12:48 PM

    Asking the government to intervene is like asking a fox to protect the chickens from a wolf.

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    Mute Leo Lowe
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:53 PM

    Chickens would not be high on the list of a wolf’s diet. The last wolf in Ireland was said to have been killed in Tipperary in 1786. This would tend to suggest that Irish chickens face very little threat from wolves.

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    Mute Vladimir Vasyectomy
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    Mar 19th 2016, 4:38 PM

    if you can conjure up a better analogy for 2 predators and a defenceless victim, – be my guest…

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    Mute Anne Marie Devlin
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    Mar 19th 2016, 12:53 PM

    Interesting article on the front page of today’s Examiner. Even business leaders are calling for the government to intervene in the housing crisis. There are talks of jobs being diverted away from Ireland as there is simply no accommodation for workers

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    Mute Frederick Higginbottom
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:52 PM

    True, I work in a Dublin based multinational company that is very dependent on skilled labour from countries like
    Spain / Italy / France, even China / India to survive. Lately these people are leaving the company at an alarming rate to return home or move to other parts of Europe where rent isn’t consuming 60% of their salary. This housing crisis has the potential to devastate the economy if the supply issue is not sorted very quickly.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:25 PM

    It’;s not only that they are looking at Frederick, they are looking at unrest, strikes, demands for higher wages all across the board.

    We have the AAA actively supporting this while ignoring the potential effects.

    These people want everyone back to 2006 wages – can they not see that 2006 was the glitch?

    Companies won’t want to invest, our own companies will become less competitive if they have to give in to these demands.

    Ireland is a basketcase,

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    Mute Mike Hall
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    Mar 19th 2016, 5:26 PM

    Sure Patlyndo, but you missed the point as always.

    It is the housing crisis and resulting cost rip off that is driving up wage demands.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 5:39 PM

    “It is the housing crisis and resulting cost rip off that is driving up wage demands.”

    But yet the AAA want to revert PS wages (And of course increase SW payments) back to a time where these increases were funded – from income that came from property.

    They want house prices and rents to decrease, while simultaneously promoting wage increases across all sectors???

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 6:17 PM

    Increased wages and salaries in a “booming economy” are required to meet the escalating rents. Rents went up first. Salaries and wage levels are under pressure to keep pace with the cost of living, one of the major components of which is monthly rent and mortgage repayments.

    The average household is facing increased costs of accommodation, heating, commuting, health insurance for the decreasing number who can barely afford it and the hidden costs of education for children. These are the conditions which combine to drive up wage and salary demands in a recovering economy. People have to live and have a foundation for an improving life.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 6:28 PM

    “Increased wages and salaries in a “booming economy” are required to meet the escalating rents. Rents went up first.”

    Are we in a booming economy? Really?

    So where does it end? I am afraid that you have it backwards Fiona. But sure I’m wasting my time.

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 6:56 PM

    The escalation in rents was a function of shortage of supply, which started about 3 years ago and is getting worse and worse because of the continued lack of suitable housing construction. Paying increased rents puts salaries and wages under pressure. The additional burden of new taxes and the water charges are adding to the gpfinancial pressures of households.

    It may have eluded you despite the fuss made by FG that GDP increases are almost up to 8% and unemployment is down. Profitability in most sectors, especially, but not only in tourism and hospitality is up.

    In the light of increased rents and the high margin on nin tracker mortgage repayments, wages and salaries will have to climb. Increased residential rents have consequences for economies.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 7:45 PM

    Fiona, so where does it end? You haven’t answered that question?

    Higher salaries, higher cost of living costs, higher salaries, higher cost of llving costs – have a look back to about 15 years ago, not to the 19th century Fiona.

    Have a look back and tell me how that all went.

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 8:21 PM

    The legislative land law reforms of the 19th century proved progressive and led to the immense success of a proprietary agricultural class which set the foundation for later Irish economic success.

    Clearly, we need to control rents in the public interest whilst supply is limited following the failure of free market and laissez faire economic policies. We know the results of such failed policies. We are living with the consequences.

    We can reform, improve and secure that families have stable and reasonable cost renting, contributing to lowering the cost of living. We can have a better and fairer society if we have the will and the courage to embrace it.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 8:55 PM

    “Clearly, we need to control rents in the public interest whilst supply is limited following the failure of free market and laissez faire economic policies. We know the results of such failed policies. We are living with the consequences.”

    You know I advocated this not too long ago and as soon as the 2 year thing was announced rents increased, so how to control such a market?

    It’s a complete and utter mess at the moment and I think it’s going to get worse, as a matter of fact it is getting worse, supply is shrinking outside Dublin.

    We me disagree on issues, but we do agree that this is a crisis.

    “We can reform, improve and secure that families have stable and reasonable cost renting, contributing to lowering the cost of living. We can have a better and fairer society if we have the will and the courage to embrace it.”

    I agree.

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    Mute Beano
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:13 PM

    ‘Their’ homes? Do they own them? Didn’t think so

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    Mute Moderate Michael
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    Mar 19th 2016, 12:57 PM

    18 does seem fair, does it not? What else can they expect?

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    Mute IrishGravyTrain
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    Mar 19th 2016, 12:48 PM

    No point calling on the Government for help. Noonan is good friends with these Vultures.

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    Mute Mike Hall
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    Mar 19th 2016, 5:11 PM

    Absolutely true, but the demand should still be made.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 5:40 PM

    What would you have the Government do Mike?

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    Mute Trevor Beale
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    Mar 19th 2016, 12:43 PM

    This is wrong, no two ways about it.

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    Mute Alan Wiley
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    Mar 19th 2016, 12:57 PM

    What is the vulture fund planning to do with the houses ?

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    Mute Wally Mooney
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:00 PM

    It was a great meeting in Tyrellstown last night and the community is ready to fight this attack on local families to further enrich the bloated parasites of Twinlite/EPF and Goldman Sachs.

    Statement from the Anti Austerity Alliance Dublin West
    Ruth Coppinger TD and Cllrs Matt Waine, Tania Doyle & Sandra Kavanagh

    * Govt must legislate to stop mass evictions by vulture fund
    * Residents must take United stand and refuse to leave
    * Housing emergency already rages in Dublin West
    ” It is outrageous that potentially hundreds of tenants in Tyrrelstown, Dublin 15, now face eviction by a vulture fund investment company looking to make a quick buck.

    The fact that hundreds of houses were bought in one transaction and that the fate of so many families lies in the hands of one greedy investment fund says it all about how the private market has been allowed dominate housing by successive governments.

    The tenants of this European Property Fund have been fleeced with rent increases and many are currently paying €1,500 in rent, way above the justifiable rate for the price of this housing.
    A housing emergency rages in Dublin West, as evidenced by a recent report that said 40 percent of all homeless Dublin families hail from this constituency.

    It is absolutely untenable that 200 more families would voluntarily vacate their rented homes and swell the ranks of the homeless. Today, only 63 properties are available for rent in Dublin 15 on DAFT.ieand some of these families are on rent allowance and wouldn’t be able to get those scarce properties.

    The Anti Austerity Alliance in Dublin 15 therefore calls on effected residents to take a stand together and refuse to leave their homes, many of whom have lived there since they were built eight years ago.

    It should be illegal for any family to be put under this horrrendous stress. The caretaker government must immediately introduce legislation to stop evictions on this basis. Having failed to do so for five years, they must act now. A statement from the Dept of the Environment that due notice should be given is absolutely useless.

    It should be illegal to evict anyone who doesn’t have alternative accommodation, never mind a vulture fund carrying out mass evictions in the midst of a homeless emergency.

    The Anti Austerity Alliance councillors will move an emergency motion on Fingal Council this evening calling on the government to legislate to prevent such evictions and giving support to tenants to remain in their homes.

    When the Dail resumes on March 22nd, time should be given on this issue and Ruth Coppinger TD will raise it on the Dail floor.

    Tenants should now come together and form their own action group to save their homes, with the full support of political representatives and the wider Dublin community .”

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    Mute William Clay
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:54 PM

    I’m sorry Wally but these families are not being evicted, they’re leases are not being renewed. Speaking as a tenant for the past 11 years, I’m fully aware that although I’m comfortable in the apartment I’m currently in, I could be asked to leave when my next lease is up. It’s something that all tenants are aware of.
    I do genuinely feel sorry for theses families, but 18 months is ample time to find somewhere else.

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:55 PM

    Eviction or lease expiry, the practical consequence is the same, tenants seeking alternative accommodation in a scarce supply market with inflating rents. This is very bad news for the tenants involved. Some may end up homeless.

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    Mute Terri MacDonald
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:31 PM

    Just for clarity – the rent on these houses is €1500 and is being covered by *rent allowance*? Did I understand that correctly? Oh and just for ref – 3 bed, 3 bath houses for rent in Navan for 1K per month.

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 6:26 PM

    Terri, please send on the details of the properties currently available to rent in Navan for €1,000 per month. 3 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms! Are these the ones with the Carlsberg sign on them?

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    Mute Andrea Byrne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 8:01 PM

    As a texter on Niall Boylan show said the other day – Ruth Coppinger and crew wont be happy until this country is bankrupt , paying this and that for everyone and the working people breaking their backs for people who do nothing. AAA party is just awful. We dont need all this left wing shite!

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 8:29 PM

    Sadly, the country was bankrupted by the failures of right wing economics which facilitated greed and reckless irresponsibility.

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    Mute David Farrell
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    Mar 19th 2016, 12:49 PM

    Unbelievable! !!! It’s worse this place is getting

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    Mute James O Brien
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:41 PM

    “It should be illegal to evict anyone who doesn’t have alternative accommodation” – Wally Mooney So basically it should be illegal to evict anyone ever? Because nobody who doesn’t want to leave will organize alternative accommodation. What a stupid proposal

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    Mute Neuville-Kepler62F
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:31 PM

    Sounds more like Irish citizens need protection from vulture Political Parties failing to protect citizens.

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    Mute Paul Mc
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    Mar 19th 2016, 12:54 PM

    Indeed the current government don’t give a fiddlers about these poor unfortunate people, all they care about is getting their arses back on cabinet seats.

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    Mute Trevor Beale
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    Mar 19th 2016, 12:53 PM

    Stop kicking people out of their homes in place of profit would be a start.

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    Mute LITTLEONE
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:38 PM

    Well think it’s obvious the government don’t care about the housing crisis. They dont care that it’s these People that actually bailed out these banks.. They are best friends with banks , vulture funds … Google hedgecraic …

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    Mute LITTLEONE
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:45 PM

    It’s not just people renting that this a problem for . it’s also people that have a mortgage ..
    A farmer in nenagh sadly took his own life this week after he was destroyed by a mortgage company that was charging him 25% interest… 25% . for all those who think it’s only rentals , its not… Who knows if your mortgage has been sold on to a vulture fund or will be.. Will you be so flippant then on people being made homeless.

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    Mute AN other
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:08 PM

    35% of TDs in the last dail were also landlords (given the recent general election I don’t have current figures) so why would they lay a turd on their own doorsteps?

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    Mute SarahK
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:00 PM

    Is it possible for some of these people to purchase their homes? Has the price deflated from boom time prices enough that makes that an option?

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    Mute Anne Marie Devlin
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:28 PM

    @SarahK. I would doubt that people who have been paying €1500 – €2000 a month in rent would have had the means to save a further €50000 minimum for a deposit. No new houses are being built, rents are enormous and a 20% deposit is required before you get a mortgage. €1500 a month is €18000 a year taken from post tax income. You would need to be saving another €2000 a month to realistically come up with the deposit before house prices soar again. That’s €42000 a year after tax that needs to be spent on rent and savings if you want to buy a house That would be a salary of about €80000 a year and that is before you spend a penny. So if you live like a monk you need to be earning about €100000 before you can enter the housing market.

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    Mute Tomasz Kuchnik
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:44 PM

    Anne Marie: yeah sure I bet they pay 1500-2000 for houses in Tyrellstown… If they paid this much then they wouldn’t have problem to move on now…

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    Mute Andrea Byrne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 7:57 PM

    Theres a lot of rent allowance here i thought – Niall Boylan show discussed it the other day

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    Mute Bob Mac
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:35 PM

    As far as I can see it here, If I were just an ordinary Joe Soap landlord and I decided I wished to sell my property and in a timely manner I told my tenant that I planned to do so and their tenancy would no be renewed, there would not be a problem.

    If you accept the above scenario as being completely fine, then no person can possibly have an objection with what’s going on here. The difference here that it is not a Joe Soap landlord, it is a a faceless entity. We cannot have one set of standards for one scenario and not for another. they must be the same. I fully sympathise with the people losing their tenancy here but they are not being evicted. they never owned the properties.

    Vulture funds taking over mortgages and hiking interest rates is another story entirely. We need to highlight the difference between the two or else its just a case of mob anger.

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 6:23 PM

    It is not necessarily the case that the vulture fund intends to sell on immediately after obtaining vacant possession. It may refurb and charge much higher rents, taking advantage of an escalating rental market before selling on.

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    Mute TTIP McGowan
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:27 PM

    Let’s all defend a man made concept of earning money to survive rather than showing empathy for one another . Ya know. Basic humanity which we lost somewhere along the way.

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    Mute Aoife
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    Mar 19th 2016, 1:38 PM

    Imagine if the likes of Google were told to vacate cos the landlords were selling up or Facebook or Intel. I’m sure the opinions on here would be different.

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    Mute Jarrett moon
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    Mar 19th 2016, 5:18 PM

    Bit too heavy on the peroxide there Aoife

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    Mute David Hefner
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:47 PM

    Unfortunately their leases are not bring renewed. Thats the rental market.

    Its the tenants choice to live in overpriced Dublin with a shortage of rental accommodation

    What ‘plan B’ have the tenants put in place when this time came? They have to take the consequences of choosing to live in Dublin.

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    Mute David Hefner
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:51 PM

    They way they’re whinging on like they are entitled to be there for the rest of their lives. What have they done about their situations?
    Load of bullshit attitude. Life is not plain sailing get over yourselves!

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    Mute kaz
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:22 PM

    This is Goldman S who got bailed out getting paid again!!!

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:38 PM

    Free market principles are such that the continuing shortage of housing supply will continue to permit rent gouging by larger landlords who have significant power in local geographic markets. Departing tenants will be facing enormous increases in rent elsewhere. As for the houses which are to be vacated, the holding will be sold at a huge gain over what was paid for them or rented at a huge increase in rent. It’s a typical example of exploitation of shortage of supply being exploited by a limited number of greedy landlords but this will get much worse.

    Emigrants will not return to Ireland, FDI will be deterred, homeless will get worse, and social dissension will develop. Squatting will develop as a phenomenon. Social cohesion will be undermined. This is all so a few can make super profits at the expense of the many.

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    Mute John McCann
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    Mar 19th 2016, 4:18 PM

    While i do feel sorry for the residents they are being given more than enough time to find somewhere else to live. But this happens everyday in Ireland,leases are not always renewed for whatever reason. I was given 8 weeks notice that my lease wasnt being renewed a few years back and strangely enough it didnt make the news. They are not being evicted,their leases are not being renewed and there’s a BIG difference!

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 6:01 PM

    Same consequence, dispossession in a rental market which is subject to scarce supply and increasing monthly rents.

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    Mute Paul Mc
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:32 PM

    A basket case run by basketcases for basketcases. Ireland Inc.has been sold to the corporate conglomerates by successive Irish Government’s to the detrimental effects on its citizens, well put Patlyndo.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:55 PM

    Nope Paul a basketcase is when people who stand in support of higher wages scratch their heads when companies don’t want to invest here because of the rising cost of living/transport/housing.

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:10 PM

    Yes, increased housing costs are and will continue to me a major deterrent factor to FDI.

    Higher rents are also driving increased wages demands.

    The cost of living in Ireland is getting quite expensive. Energy costs are high. Monthly rents are prohibitive. Transport is expensive. Peole need higher incomes to be able to cope.

    Moderate rental and housing costs would be a factor in reducing high wage demands. It’s about financial survival. There is a limit to the rents affordable by lower income households, especially those with children.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:16 PM

    No Fiona, if you continue to increase wages, then the cost of living continues to go up. We need to reduce the costs of living, what we are seeing is different sections lining up for pay rises, like the Luas drivers and now the buses and trains – soon it will be the PS.

    This means more taxes to meet those demands.

    This means less money going where it’s needed – like housing.

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 5:59 PM

    Patlyndo, the cost of living increases as residential rents, one of the biggest items of monthly outlays, increases inexorably in a short supply market, pricing out lower income households who can no longer qualify for the former but now non existent social housing.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 8:09 PM

    http://www.environ.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad%2C29414%2Cen.pdf

    Net income for a single person – 35k

    Net income for a family – 42k.

    Net income, after tax, PRSI, USC.

    Is this your idea of low income?

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 8:35 PM

    Income must be related to cost of living in relative terms.

    When rents are extortionately high and other loving expenses are unafforably high, such incomes are too low.

    To put this as simply as I can, an annual income which is adequate when rent for a household is say €1,000 per month will be grossly inadequate when monthly rents climb say to €2,000 per month as a result of extreme housing shortage. That should not be an unduly harsh concept to grasp for you Patlyndo, although I make allowance for the fact that your mental processes lack cognitive acuity.

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 20th 2016, 9:08 AM

    Are you actually listening to yourself Fiona.

    “Income must be related to cost of living in relative terms.”

    “To put this as simply as I can, an annual income which is adequate when rent for a household is say €1,000 per month will be grossly inadequate when monthly rents climb say to €2,000 per month as a result of extreme housing shortage.”

    You are saying that if rents continue to rise, that annual income becomes inadequate, so following this logic, incomes should rise accordingly.

    So tell me this – what happens when employers have to meet the demands of their workers?
    What happens then the PS (and they will) come along with their pay demands?

    Where do you think the pay increases come from?

    If wages increases, then goods and services must be increased to pay for the wage increases – can you not grasp that. IF we increase PS pay, then where do we find money to invest in it?

    If all we do is increase wages. then we make the same mistakes we made 10 years ago.,

    You said you were a SD supporter, well maybe you might listen to Stephen Donnelly:

    http://www.newstalk.com/election2016/Social-Democrats-GE16-manifesto-promises-USC-Stephen-Donnelly-Roisin-Shorthall-Catherine-Murphy

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7hTX_nop6XkRGdURzVoendyQzQ/view?pref=2&pli=1

    “That should not be an unduly harsh concept to grasp for you Patlyndo, although I make allowance for the fact that your mental processes lack cognitive acuity.”

    At least I have a mental process.

    You should try and broaden your mind, we have other issues besides housing, childcare, health service, costs of services.

    We need to reduce the cost of living, not keep up with it – can you not grasp that this is the very madness that happened a decade ago?

    Health service in crisis – throw money at it.

    Childcare problem – throw money at it.

    We reached a point were nurses and Gardai couldn’t buy a house – sound familiar?

    We threw money at it.

    Now we have a housing crisis because the Government took their eye off that ball.

    Whatever solution is to be had won’t be found overnight – but to suggest that one solution is to throw money at it – is bonkers.

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    Mute Terri MacDonald
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:26 PM

    Sorry, can I clarify something here -the rent on these houses us €1500 and it’s being covered by rent allowance?

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    Mute Patlyndo
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:34 PM

    That’s not true Terri, while of course some people are in receipt of RA, not all are and even if they were, the limit for RA is not 1,500 euro.

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    Mute Drew TheChinaman :)
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:23 PM

    Why is it funds and banks are to blame… Branded evil, parasitic…?

    Is the former owner/developer that borrowed and leveraged, gambled, made bad investments, mismanaged their businesses until they couldn’t repay debt or dig their company out of a financial hole not to blame? If a so called vulture fund didn’t take over the assets, interest and debts would just mount until the indebted zombie company collapsed and a liquidator would be called in to do just the same.

    It’s sad that say a company like Cleary’s no longer exists, but if they CAN’T make money, using their business model and several attempts to turn around the business fail. Is it not better that it’s iconic building is sold off to someone that can?

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:05 PM

    Higher rents and increasingly difficult access to the housing mortgage market will mean that many younger people with higher mobility due to experience and ability will need to emigrate in order to have stable living arrangements to raise families, losing Ireland its more talented and younger workforce.

    Facebook and Google are now block reserving rental accommodation in the Barrow and Grand Canal areas for young European staff whilst Irish resident employees of SMEs on lower income are priced out of the local rental market.

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    Mute @mdmak33
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:13 PM

    Stay in your homes.

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 2:48 PM

    In other countries, sales of investment residential properties usually permits rent paying tenants to remain in possession, sales being based on the capitalised value of the rent roll.

    In this case the Goldman Sachs debt vehicle is using the opportunity, having acquired control very cheaply, to leverage massive capital gains by selling on with vacant possession.

    This is all about treating basic housing as a trading speculative commodity, transferring wealth out of Ireland to foreign hedge funds and private equity houses at the expense of the Irish economy.

    What is happening and is sadly permitted by law, is benefiting a few foreign investors at the expense of the Irish public interest. It seems that this is acceptable to many Irish people.

    The impact will be to radicalise urban tenants by making them wake up to the fact of their gross exploitation. The price to be paid will not be merely financial. This and other looming situations have the potential to create massive social discord.

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    Mute Bob Mac
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:46 PM

    And if this was to be the case, then when properties are being built, they should be built as residential properties for lease/rent., such as they can be bought and sold in that form. If we had proper planning in this country, property use would be defined in this regard. It is prudent for Dublin to have a strong property ownership and rental market. The entity’s here are operating within the constraints of the law as it was never stated that this list of property’s have to remain as rental properties.

    This is a manifestation of problems that failed to be foreseen in the past and very little can be done about this in the short term.

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    Mute proctor
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    Mar 19th 2016, 12:50 PM

    Agreed but what if anything can be done?

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    Mute Keith Richardson
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:00 PM

    A mortgage is a different contract. They could sell your mortgage, but not evict you unless you fell into arrears.

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    Mute proctor
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    Mar 19th 2016, 12:51 PM

    This is a reply to Trevor

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    Mute Fergus Crawf0rd
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:17 PM

    Guys, CMON! They have to create the illusion of scarcity to inflate the market. Sure if there was plenty of houses for sale for 100k in Dublin west, how could we peddle gafs with 3 beds and large fridge for 800k!! Homelessness is part of the equation. People will respond to fear better, so the fear of homelessness pushes them to make irrational decisions regarding property purchases. Would you pay 500k for a box? Regards! Fergus (I’m better than you) Crawf0rd.

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 5:55 PM

    I’m reading a lot of historical material on the Land War and the development of the Land League, including the evidence given to the Bessborough Commission. This led to the statutory Land Law reforms by the Parliament of Westminster, which started in 1880 and continued into the early 20th century.

    It is interesting that the bombastic remarks and hostility to Land Law Reform from landlords, landlords agents and the various interest groups which supported landlords and opposed sensible land law reform and agrarian reform are similar in tone and content to the voices in the 21st century which favour the protection of the banks, hedge funds, vulture funds, private equity houses and the speculators who today seek to exploit lower income householders.

    Truly, history repeats.

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 20th 2016, 12:58 AM

    It is an interesting feature of human nature that social injustice, inequality, exploitation, material hardship and lack of security eventually trigger a strong left wing reaction and social dissension. It starts with intense unfairness but seems less than significant. It is like tinder. Too much tinder eventually will be lit.

    Governments or regimes, the establishment, fail to recognise these seemingly insignificant events, these turning points, these events which reveal political systems as unfair and simply wrong towards the most disadvantageous. Civil society depends on common or popular adherence and loyalty. Too many injustices will discredit the system and eventually cause the people to lose trust and loyalty in the current system of political control.

    Too much Governmental support for those who are super wealthy and privileged will alienate more and more people, who will demand a fair and just society.

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    Mute Terri MacDonald
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    Mar 19th 2016, 9:42 PM

    Daft.ie, Navan, houses to rent. I’d post a screen cap but can’t do attachments

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    Mute Fiona deFreyne
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    Mar 19th 2016, 10:33 PM

    No 3 bedroom, 3 bathroomed properties for rent at €1,000 per month in Navan. You just concocted that in order to support your argument. It would have been simple to give the address. You could just post a link if you were genuine.

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    Mute Peter
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:39 PM

    Ru Would.

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    Mute Peter Buchanan
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    Mar 20th 2016, 11:36 AM

    Careful here GS is a big contributor to Hillary Clinton’s election fund….

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    Mute Gus Sheridan
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    Mar 20th 2016, 7:13 AM

    Thank God for the recovery and the wise stewardship of our Great Temporary Leader Enda, where would the country be without him?

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    Mute Terri MacDonald
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    Mar 19th 2016, 3:39 PM

    I’d be interested in seeing the proof of that statement as I know many people – Irish and EU – who work in both companies and they have *exactly* the same issues as everyone else. Some companies in the area do rent either for corporate visitors or short term for new hires, but I’ve never heard of anyone getting long term accom from those companies. Also, rental property in the area is massively expensive – I’m an Irish resident employee of an SME and I wouldn’t even bother looking at D4 for an apartment rental. Still, makes for a good story and everyone automatically believes it without question.

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    Mute Terri MacDonald
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    Mar 19th 2016, 9:57 PM

    I notice that I got no replies to *this* post. So no actual proof then, just believable speculation stated as fact.

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    Mute Terri MacDonald
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    Mar 19th 2016, 9:55 PM

    Hence the *question* – because that’s how it reads in the AAA statement

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