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THE DÁIL has approved emergency legislation to immediately liquidate the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, the combined former Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide, with immediate effect.
The approval came after four hours of debate in a dramatic late-night emergency sitting, called by the government after it openly feared for the security of IBRC’s €12 billion in assets.
Those fears came after Reuters and Bloomberg reported that Ireland’s plans to scrap the IBRC promissory notes, and replace them with a long-term government bond, would involve the liquidation of the former Anglo.
Being unable to deny these reports, the government appointed interim liquidators to the bank at the close of business yesterday, and stood down the board, ahead of tabling the IBRC Resolution Bill which would appoint a special liquidator as soon as it is passed.
In an act unprecedented in recent history, President Michael D Higgins – who is this week visiting Italy – interrupted his trip to return home so that he would be available to consider any legislation presented for his signature.
The legislation – which finance minister Michael Noonan said had been drafted several months ago, but which was still only distributed to opposition TDs just half an hour before the Dáil discussed it – was passed by TDs shortly before 3am, by 113 votes to 35.
If passed by the Seanad and signed into law – with a Seanad vote due at about 5am – the legislation would see the special liquidator proceed to sell off all of IBRC’s assets and liabilities – with the bulk going to NAMA, which will act as a kind of purchaser ‘of last resort’ if no other parties wish to buy each asset.
It would also immediately lay off IBRC’s workforce of approximately 800 – though Noonan said he understood that most of these staff would be immediately rehired either by the liquidators, or by NAMA when it takes on IBRC’s assets.
Noonan said he regretted that this was the case, but conceded that it was necessary that the legislation be introduced overnight so that there could be no attempt by IBRC’s creditors to try and stop the process in the courts in the morning.
Other features of the legislation include an immediate freeze on any legal action involving IBRC, with court approval required before any new proceedings can be brought against the bank. Any injunction against the liquidator can only be granted in the public interest.
The intention of the bill is that the promissory notes – which currently require an annual repayment of €3.06 billion, due at the end of March – will be replaced with NAMA-issued bonds, which are covered by a government guarantee.
This will have the effect of removing the annual repayments, but also incorporating IBRC’s former liabilities into NAMA and therefore bringing them fully within the State. Because the cash will be owed to the Central Bank – and therefore to the ECB – this cannot be written down.
ECB approval for the scheme could come later today when its governing board meets in Frankfurt. A preliminary agreement had originally been expected last night, but was put on ice when the bank was reluctant to commit to the idea immediately – a delay which originally called off the late-night Oireachtas sittings.
It quickly emerged, however, that the outstanding question marks about the future of IBRC left the government with no option but to kill the institution – and prompting the late-night parliamentary business to pass the laws necessary to do so.
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Look at the video from Russian military from 2014, with 5 star generals in flashing room presenting their version and blaming Ukraine. Then watch Russian “new evidence” from 2 days ago. These two versions are completely apart. Basically with a “new version” they completely cancelled their lies in 2014. Why would you so cheaply lie and hide black boxes for 2 weeks if you are innocent? I am not even talking about “experts” and fake Twitter accounts like “Spanish traffic controller” on Twitter and “spreading the news” by Putin’s trolls on Internet. Before becoming “controller” that account was used by one of Russian propagandists.
Apparently the #TrumpWon which started trending last night originated in St. Petersburg. There’s an abundance of fake accounts from Russian trolls trying to distort public opinion and destabilise politics in the west.
That Russia Today channel is no more than a propaganda tool as well.
@Oleksandr Savitskyy: Indeed it was quite remarkable how the “evidence” the Kremlin put forth in 2014 managed to change so dramatically compared to 2 days ago.
Perhaps they assumed people wouldn’t remember?
The Catastrophe of #MH17: #BBC in the Search of the “BUK” – The Video Report Deleted by BBC…
”The BBC pulled this broadcast in total panic when they realised the evidence of the eye witnesses did not correspond to the narrative the US & their NATO allies wanted to convey, many witnesses verified there were 2 Ukraine SU25 very close to the downed MH17, their presence was also confirmed by Russian satellite images provided by their air ministry. The US has thus so far refused to disclose their satellite images instead relying on YouTube videos provided by Ukraine secret Police which have subsequently been proven to be faked. This raise the very strong suspicion that MH17 was a staged false flag attack.”
”Furthermore, the Ukraine/US version of events is totally implausible, the BUK missile system is not simply a standalone launcher on a truck, it can only be deployed as part of an integrated system comprising of a number of sophisticated radar units.”
”It also require up to 20 specialised men with dedicated training to operate it, which the separatists simply do not have. Though the Seps admit they have a BUK launcher which they captured from the Ukr Army but it was not operable, there was several parts damaged on it.”
@Aisling Farrell:
“Russian trolls trying to distort public opinion and destabilise politics in the west.”
How anyone can say something like this with a straight face is beyond me.
Fraud Alleged in NYT’s MH-17 Report
by Robert Parry, for Consortium News
Forensic experts are challenging an amateur report – touted in The New York Times – that claimed Russia faked satellite imagery of Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile batteries in eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, the day that Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot out of the sky killing 298 people.
“The Times article suggested that the Russians were falsely claiming that the Ukrainian military had Buk missile systems in eastern Ukraine on the day that MH-17 was shot down. But the presence of Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile batteries in the area has been confirmed by Western intelligence, including a report issued last October on the findings of the Dutch intelligence agency which had access to NATO’s satellite and other data collection.
Indeed, the Netherlands’ Military Intelligence and Security Service (MIVD) concluded that the only anti-aircraft weapons in eastern Ukraine capable of bringing down MH-17 at 33,000 feet belonged to the Ukrainian government, not the ethnic Russian rebels. MIVD made that assessment in the context of explaining why commercial aircraft continued to fly over the eastern Ukrainian battle zone in summer 2014. (The MH-17 flight had originated in Amsterdam and carried many Dutch citizens, explaining why the Netherlands took the lead in the investigation.)”
https://off-guardian.org/2016/07/21/fraud-alleged-in-nyts-mh-17-report/
Der Spiegel Apologizes to Readers over Coverage of Bellingcat MH17 Report
Under the headline “What we learn from the coverage of the Bellingcat report,” Der Spiegel’s online edition has published an apology for taking it at face value.
“Reading Tea Leaves
Harms justifiably recalls that, already on June 3, Der Spiegel published an interview with image forensic expert Jens Kriese who was quoted, right from the headline, as saying that: “Bellingcat engages in reading tea leaves.”
@Aisling Farrell: “That viral image showing #TrumpWon starting in Russia is fake” https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/09/27/that-viral-image-showing-trumpwon-starting-in-russia-is-probably-fake/
Welcome Pat.
The “vlad signal” went out then.
“Putinistas Assemble!!!!”
@Aisling Farrell: The only thing I am amazed that Europe and NATO does so little to counter these trolls. I have been dealing with them since 2004 on Ukrainian media. In case of MH17 their actions are not really effective, just spam, because too many lies. But their activities on subjects like refugees, religious tensions etc in Europe or racism in US is quite effective. Exactly the same way the hatred was spread in Eastern Ukraine. Interference in for example Brexit vote or US elections could be pricey. In the moment of Brexit the same people posted comments “f..k Europe and then “Putin is great leader” (600 likes vs 120 dislikes). For example their tactics on refugee’s crisis is usually to create tensions on both side. They use their fake accounts to pretend to be locals and call “all Europeans to do something about Muslims” and then on Muslim radical networks they are Muslim guys who hate Europe and call for violence. I think you remember alleged rape by immigrants (which never happened) of Russian girls Lisa, even Lavrov was talking about it. Yet beheading of the child by Muslim radical woman in Moscow went unreported on mainstream Russian media controlled by Kremlin.
MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up
.Black box evidence as to why the aircraft had been diverted from its original flight route to a lower altitude and over a contested military area have not been disclosed. No wonder. The Black boxes have ended up by some mysterious means, in an English military basis in Farnborough never to be seen or heard of again.
There is also the very strange situation that Kiev, a potential perpetrator of the crime have been given a veto right on any information disclosed concerning the results of the investigation. This does not point to impartiality and is similar to an accused having a veto right on the outcome of the jury.
The BBC reported on July 17th:
“Ukraine’s SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency.”
Independent investigators are worried that ATC audio records of the MH17 flight appear to have been confiscated by the Kiev government. No reason has been given for this loss of transparency, but not a word from Washington regarding this cover-up of crucial evidence.
Did this order to change the flight path come from the Ukrainian authorities? Was the pilot instructed to change course? To be sure, the order to change the flight path did not come from Eurocontrol, but rather from ATC in Kiev.
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/
What did I tell you all. Here is the start of it. “Sputnik Pat” to Mother Russia’s rescue.
@Pat O’Dwyer:
“many witnesses verified there were 2 Ukraine SU25 very close to the downed MH17″
Actually, Russia’s released radar data only showed that there was one Ukrainian SU-25 in the area. This was later revised to ‘one Ukrainian aircraft’ when Sukhoi rubbished claims by the Russian government that the SU-25 could close to within engagement range of a trans-continental passenger aircraft.
As to your point that the rebels didn’t have the manpower to operate a Buk system, you are correct in that assertion. Hence why the investigation has provided evidence that Russia had a direct hand in operating the system for the rebels.
@Pat O’Dwyer: Keep posting “evidence” from July 2014 articles. Did you even listen to the report? Even Russian government changed their mind on what the links you posted say.
@Oleksandr Savitskyy: rubbish the ‘Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT)’ is not reputable. the usual anti slavic racist trolls are out in force
@Pat O’Dwyer: doing some job of spreading as many tinfoil theories on how this happened as possible there Pat. You even got some content from alt-infortainment spoofer Robert Parry.
BBC realised they’d been duped by locals -themselves under instruction from rebels to tell western press they saw Su25s. Jeez even the Russians are NOW saying there were no other planes close to MH17 if you’d watch their press conference from just 48 hours ago. Try and keep up.
@O’Callaghan Stephen: I am slavic myself. What does the investigation has to do with that? And who are reputable? Russian Generals who openely lied and reveal it by themselfs?
Stephen. This may come as shock to you but the Ukrainians are Slavs too. And as for the Malaysians they wouldn’t know the diffrence between a Slav and a Nordic yet they were also involved in the investigation. So that kind of throws your anti Slav narrative out the window.
We get it Pat. Russia has conclusive proof that MH17 was shot down by Ukrainian jets, and even if it was, in fact, shot down by a BUK missile, it wasn’t a Russian one….
@Piotrek Król: How someone can sit and watch RT with a straight face is beyond me.
@Piotrek Król: ya i prefer to watch cnn with a straight face. they always tell the truth. they never lie
@Piotrek Król:
Former workers tell how hundreds of bloggers are paid to flood forums and social networks at home and abroad with anti-western and pro-Kremlin comments:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house
Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks
@Oleksandr Savitskyy: I just was watching Russian news on Lenta.ru. It looks like Russian propaganda gave up on MH17 accusations abroad, apart from few odd trolls keeping links from 2014. But the troll army is booming on internal Russian sources and come in the full force. Classic Putin’s propaganda. Russian TV only shown a little part of the report, concentrating mostly on evidence from social media. They did not mention that investigators bought few Buk missiles, satellite images provided by US and European space agency. It is easy to follow trend which will be soon incorporated by Pat O’Dwyer and Ko as soon as he’ll receives new orders. The main topic of their post that the report only based on Social media pictures. It seems their lost the game so now their trying to brainwash own citizens by usual way: twist the information and cover that twist by 100% TV and thousands of trolls.
Are you sure your name isn’t comrade Pat O Dwyerski ? Lol another of putins trolls failing miserably with his so called facts/propaganda !! I bet he’s in a squalid room in Moscow with a single light bulb smoking cheap cigarettes and watching re runs of the man from uncle !
Lol business cat
@Aisling Farrell: as opposed to western media: BBC CNN ABC NBC the list goes on. they are not propaganda machines at all ?
@Oleksandr Savitskyy: You must explain something to me. I have been observing for the past few months that when you post something, inside a few minutes you have 10 t0 20 greens, and the person that opposes your view has 10 to 20 reds, even if you and they post something a few days after the article has first appeared . How do you do this ?
@Pat O’Dwyer: Balh blah blah. keep writing essay like posts in the hope of conflustering everyone. You sir, are the wally mooney of putins internet troll factory.
I hope people remember just how ridiculous Pat’s conspiracy theories are in other threads.
@Pat O’Dwyer: Pat is it not obvious? I am posting updated info and not propaganda links from 2014
@Oleksandr Savitskyy: Did you ever hear of multiple accounts ?
@Pat O’Dwyer: Yes, I have heard. Here some info https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades. Which I am sure you know about :). Do not worry about me. I am using my personal account and do not pretend to be Irish like majority of Russian trolls posting here.
From the maidan to MH17 the litany of murders ordered by Arsen Avakov
This is an update on an earlier blog about mh17 while bellingcat and kiev withheld the names of the so called witnesses in an attempt to hide incriminating videos {further down the page} and photos but thanks to max van der werff we can reveal the witnesses are ukraine army and so-called buk vapor trail is blatant lies some of the key players are linked to pravy sektor and known maidan snipers were in the area
http://baz2000.blogspot.ie/2015/02/mh17-truth-finally-revealed.html
Russia just does what it wants while the international community tut tut away.
All “super powers” are unaccountable. It’s one of the perks. They can even start unjust wars at will. Sure isin’t that the very definition of a super power these days.
What do you want the international community to do here? When the American military shot down a passenger plane in 1988, killing all 290 onboard sweet f all was done, there was barely even condemnation of the US military! If nothing was done back then about a military taking out a plane there is hardly going to be anything done about Russian backed rebels doing the same.
Paul, lots was done. It was a terrible tragedy. The US expressed regret and paid the victims families over $60million. It’s small consolation but I doubt the Russians will follow suit.
Charlie they wouldn’t even apologize to begin with and eventually nearly a decade later agreed to pay $213,000 to each victims families. Their behaviour in the direct aftermath was disgusting, and they couldn’t even deny it as it was their military not some proxies who committed the crime.
Paul, you said sweet f all was done. I was merely pointing out that stuff was done. It may not be to everyone’s liking and the delay was certainly unnecessary.
What was done by the international community, absolutely nothing. No sanctions or anything else for that matter!
@PaulJ:
The crew of the USS Vincennes mistook Iran Air Flight 655 for an Iranian F14 Tomcat (By the way, in case you’re puzzled as to why an enemy of the US was flying and US-manufactured aircraft, I’ll remind you: the Shah bought it in the 1970s).
@Charlie Wrex: The US initially denied it and never apologised.
Oh right Ciaran, so the rebels in Ukraine mistook this flight for a Ukrainian military plane so that makes it ok yeah?? Ffs man, they killed 290 and 298 innocent civilians respectively, big f*cking mistakes to make!
@meltyface – Reagan said they deeply regretted such a tragic loss of life. I’ve no doubt they initially denied it. $60million to the Iranian victims plus legal costs and the cost of replacing the plane. $40million to other nationalities who died. Time will tell if the Russians will do the same.
@PaulJ:
Well, the USS Vincennes mistake can be understood to a certain degree. The USS Stark had been hit the previous year by Iranian Air Force jets while USS Vincennes herself came under fire from Iranian warships earlier that day. A combination of mistaken readings from the Aegis system, edgy crew who were just involved in armed combat and the refusal of Iran Air Flight 655 to communicate back to the USS Vincennes led to the authorisation to fire.
While the US never apologised, they did pay the families compensation which we all know Russia will not do.
Why single out that one? Quite a few civilian passenger planes have been accidentally shot down by various militaries over the years.
Just like NATO accidentally repeatedly bombed a Syrian Army base for over an hour while ISIL launched a ground invasion.
Got to love the whataboutry Joe.
Thanks Mick, love yours too xxx
Why single that out you ask?? Because what other country has shot down a plane, or in this case proxies, and is as strong militarily as the Russians. No other country is comparable, and it’s in reply to a comment asking what the international community will do!
Meanwhile, the Ukraine and USA released no radar images. I am all for finding out the root cause, with an open and honest investigation, alas without the cooperation of the Ukraine and USA that has not happened. So this entire whitewash I will take with a grain of salt.
Oh and let us not forget the Ukraine have form for shooting down passenger aircraft and so too, the American’s
Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 was a commercial flight shot down by the Ukrainian Air Force over the Black Sea on 4 October 2001
On the 3rd July 1988, an American Warship the USS Vincennes while in Iranian waters shot down Air Flight 655. A passenger flight carrying 290 people, all died. America has never apologised for the shooting down of the passenger airliner.
Sure its highly speculated that the British Army shot down an Aerlingus plane off the coast of Wexford in 1968 but as usual our Government are great at brushing stuff like that under the carpet..
Like moths to flame the Puntinistas just keep coming. And keep repeating the same old whataboutry. Some haven’t even kept up to date on the latest BS from Moscow and still try and use the old fables to convince us that it’s everyone else but Russia and it’s tame Terrorists who were to blame.
@Padraig
The investigation team had the full cooperation of both Ukraine and the US – they even say so in their reports. Don’t let that stop you from spreading more lies though.
Full support is not releasing radar footage – sorry bud -
Sorry Padraig, but I’d rather take the word of the investigation team over a pro-Kremlin internet troll.
Just because you haven’t seen the radar data doesn’t mean the investigators didn’t have full access to it.
Padraig. It was the Russians that refused to co-operate with the investigation. Even using its veto in the UN to stop a UN investigation. But the truth is out there for all to see now. And no amount of twisting and squirming, lying and obfuscation will change it. It was a Russian missile launched from a Russian launcher in a Russian backed terrorist held area. And shortly after it shot down MH 17 the Launcher went back to Russia.
And nice of you so called truthers in your whataboutery to omit Korean Airlines, very convenient.
@Pádraig Ó Raghaill: How can you spot Russian troll? They do not even saw a report yet posting the same info since 2014. Listen to report. Ukraine provided all the radar info. US and European space agency provided satellite images. When Ukrainian forces shot down the plane they had joint exercises with Russians in Crimea. It was Ukrainian AA system but it was guided by Russian radar crew. The other reason the plane was shot is that all the countries closed their airspaces except Russia. The plane was shot in Russian airspace. That why Putin tried to cover up this story and Russian courts tried to close the case ASAP and do not pressed charges against Ukraine.
@doorhandler: Evidence Is Now Conclusive: Two Ukrainian Government Fighter-Jets Shot Down Malaysian Airlines MH17. It was Not a ‘Buk’ Surface to Air Missile
By Eric Zuesse
This important article was first published in August 2014. Its assessment is broadly correct.
We’ll go considerably farther than has yet been revealed by the professional intelligence community, to provide the actual evidence that conclusively shows that (and how) the Ukrainian Government shot down the Malaysian airliner, MH-17, on July 17th.
The latest report from the intelligence community was headlined on August 3rd by Robert Parry, “Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts,” and he revealed there that,
“Contrary to the Obama administration’s public claims blaming eastern Ukrainian rebels and Russia for the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, some U.S. intelligence analysts have concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame, according to a source briefed on these findings.
It’s actually based on lots more than that; it’s based not on an absence of evidence, but on positive proof that the Ukrainian Government shot the plane down, and even proving how it was done. You will see this proof, right here, laid out in detail, for the first time.
The reader-comments to my July 31st article, “First Examination of Malaysian MH-17 Cockpit Photo Shows Ukraine Government Shot that Plane Down,” provided links and leads to independent additional confirmatory evidence backing up that account, of retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko’s reconstruction of this event, to such an extent that, after exploring the matter further, I now feel confident enough to say that the evidence on this matter is, indeed, “conclusive,” that Haisenko is right.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/evidence-is-now-conclusive-two-ukrainian-government-fighter-jets-shot-down-malaysian-airlines-mh17-it-was-not-a-buk-surface-to-air-missile/5394814
Come on Pat, even your handlers have given up on flogging that particular dead horse…
@Pat O’Dwyer: You may want to have a word with your buddies in Moscow. Even they accept that it was a BUK Missile that brought down MH 17. I know you say you live in Russian Central Asia, but even a Carrier Pigeon from Moscow would have reached you with that news by now. Try keep up to date with what your masters are saying.
@Pat O’Dwyer: Another “fresh” report. November 2014. Did you see the latest Russian report and today’s report by investigators?
@Mick Jordan: No it is just one of their tactics. Spam more so whovewer will read comments will be lost. The good part is hat this is their last tactics of desperation :))).
Oleksandr, Only a complete imbecile would believe they rubbish the Putinistas are spewing. They can keep putting there rubbish out there but all they are doing is making themselves look stupid.
“Instead of [working together], international investigators suspended Moscow from comprehensive participation in the investigative process, allowing our efforts only a minor role. It sounds like a bad joke, but at the same time they made Ukraine a full member of the JIT [Joint Investigation Team], giving it the opportunity to forge evidence and turn the case to its advantage,” Zakharova added.
The spokesperson also noted that the JIT bases its findings on evidence provided by Ukrainian power structures, which are “undoubtedly a party with a vested interest.”
“To this day, the investigators continue to ignore the overwhelming evidence provided by the Russian side, despite the fact that Russia is the only side that submits accurate information and constantly discloses new data,” Zakharova said. https://www.rt.com/news/360946-mh17-ukraine-fabricate-evidence/
Buk missile producer Almaz-Antey has told RIA Novosti that three of its experiments showed flight MH17 was downed from Kiev-controlled territory. The body adds that international investigators lack technical proof for their theory presented on Wednesday.
https://www.rt.com/news/360950-buk-producer-mh17-jit/
Do you actually know what whataboutery is, Joe? Sounds like you’re assuming it’s some sort of generic insult, else you wouldn’t have flung it back at someone who has done nothing of the sort.
Why does Kiev refuse to release the communications between Ukrainian air traffic control and MH-17? Why was a civilian airliner routed over a combat zone? The Dutch report does not answer these questions. Washington prevented all answers that conflict with its propaganda.
Only Washington, whose presstitutes can be relied on to control the explanations for Washington, and Washington’s vassal in Kiev had anything to gain from downing the airliner. Whether intentional or an accident, the downing of MH-17 was used to blacken Russia and to convince the EU to go along with Washington’s economic sanctions and military moves against Russia.
As the Romans always asked: “Who benefits?” The answer to that question tells you who did it.
https://goo.gl/Ee60MF
@PaulJ: Ever heard of the Korean Airlines plane that was shot down over Kamchatka
@Pádraig Ó Raghaill:
Oh, you must mean the ATC communication whose entire transcript is contained in the official investigation report here:
https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/77c9b856be08report-mh17-crash-appendices.pdf
Your desperation to spread lies and disinformation is becoming quite laughable at this stage. I guess you have to keep your supervisors happy though….
@Pádraig Ó Raghaill: @Pádraig Ó Raghaill: The JIT said they have it. What do you want the US to do for you -stick it up on youtube?
This isn’t reality TV. This is a mass murder investigation.
Now what did the Russians supply? They SAID they’d handed over their radar data (from 21.7.14 exposé about Su25s etc) to the DSB and JIT. What did they ACTUALLY supply -screen grabs !(jpegs).
Then Russia gets Almaz Antey to do their missile tests -the results of which they announce, with similar pomp to 21.7.14, but on the day last October (2015) that the DSB announced their findings. That day they SAID they’d forwarded that data to the DSB and JIT. When did the JIT (and assumably the DSB) ACTUALLY get that data? Two weeks ago. That’s correct -early september 2016.
Then on monday, in an attempt to wobble todays announcment of the bleeding obvious, they have another go at proving their utter lack of involvment and in the process only demonstrate that
(a) everything they said on 21.7.14 was made up rubbish -a conjured narative they were trying to shoe-horn onto emerging data and
(b) whatever radar they used couldn’t detect a smelly boot if it trod in crap.
…and has this newly discovered data* been handed over to the JIT. Of course it hasn’t. They SAID they will of course. Y’know -in the rounded fullness of time. Hopefully it’s not just jpegs this time.
*Almaz Antey found this radar data when they’d the decorators in or something. Russias primary ATC radar data was deleted by RUSSIA -or so they tell us. When pressed on why they’d do this they told the investigators they’d deleted the primary radar data 30 days afterwards (mid August 2014 approx) as a matter of protocol as the crash hadn’t happened on Russian territory.
Now, as you’re concerned about who supplied what radar to whom, have you nothing to say about that?
Let me put it another way -A party or person accused of mass murder has, in their own possession, electronic evidence that may utterly exonerate them –and they wilfully and knowingly delete it in an act of good Hard-drive management or desktop de-clutter?
@Pádraig Ó Raghaill:
Oh, and whilst you’re following my link above, you can also see all the radar images that you claim were withheld from the investigation team by the Ukrainian authorities.
The MH17 Pilot’s Corpse: More on the Cover-Up
Even His Family Was Blocked from It. Here’s Why.
Eric Zuesse
It might be the decisive piece of evidence proving who and what and how and why the MH17 Malaysian airliner over the conflict zone in Ukraine on 17 July 2014 was shot down, but the pilot’s corpse has been hidden even from the people who have the most right to see it.
The corpse of the pilot of the MH17 Malaysian airliner might contain in it bullets, or bullet-residues, that can prove a Ukrainian military jet intentionally fired into the pilot; or else it might contain only missile-shrapnel, which would be consistent only with the plane’s having been erroneously shot down by a ground-based missile such as the Ukrainian government says it was; but the Malaysian government has prohibited anyone to see it — not even his relatives, who are still trying to find out how and who murdered their loved-one and the 297 other people who were aboard that tragic plane on July 17th of 2014.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/08/the-mh17-pilots-corpse-more-on-the-cover-up.html
You’re 100% right man ,the west and all the media are just telling lies the whole time ,sure 911 was an inside job and the banks run it all ,they control the whole world man,Russia and Putin are the only honest ones ,you can totally trust them ,its all a conspiracy man against them ,they have a model society and its totally fair not like the corrupt west and corrupt banks,not to mention all the false flags ,JFK and area 51! Id say it was Obama himself who used a flying saucer to shoot it down!
@Avina Laaf: Created data, “not raw,” credibility ZERO… As mentioned above -
@PaulJ:
The rebels in eastern Ukraine are unlawful combatants – they are supported by Russia in a war against a democratic government.
@Padraig
Backed up by raw transponder data provided by Ukrainian authorities, as detailed in the report itself.
Funnily enough, the report also confirms that Russia refused to hand over any raw data whatsoever, saying it had been deleted.
What are the chances of that eh? Deliberately deleting the very data that would completely exonerate you in one of the biggest geopolitical scandals of the decade because you didn’t
think it was relevant?
Alternatively, perhaps the Kremlin are lying…
* I would think about the same as the chances of Boris Nemtsov accidentally turning up dead in Moscow two days before he was due to present a report detailing Russia’s involvement in Ukraine….
Paul do you remember Kal007. Korean airliner shot down by ussr and denied for years.
Kal007 shot down by ussr.
Troll
Trollster
Trollski
Trollskis
@Avina Laaf: Because we must always have an enemy ! if we don’t have an enemy how will the elites push their agenda, headed by the US government
Grow up Karen, this has nothing to do with some kind of lizardman conspiracy to keep us all in fear. This is an evidence-based report into a complete military f*ck up that resulted in the deaths of nearly 300 innocent people.
@Pat O’Dwyer: Pat this is second and last post with which I’m bothering with you because your posts are straight copy and pastes from Robert Parrys Consortium News and Center for Globalisation Research which are in turn already copy and paste jobs from RT.
Your nonsense about the pilots body comes straight from an RT propagandamentary where they went and hassled the pilots family to see if they’d been allowed see the body of a man who’d been dead for weeks and out under the elements for quite some time too. RT spun this out to be a conspiracy to keep the truth from them. The truth is on page 85 of the DSB report but I suspect you’re not bothered with the truth and I know you haven’t bothered to read the report so I’ll bring you up to speed.
The captains shredded body, which was so badly smashed up they didn’t even recognise he was the captain til they were well into the autopsy and examination process, had literally hundreds of metal fragments in it. Not bullets or bullet holes. Hundreds of metal fragments as well as broken bones and other injuries consistent with “the impact of metal fragments travelling at high velocity.”
The first officers body had over 120 metal fragments with a strong concentration on the upper left side of the torso and pretty much every bone in his body from head to toe was broken. Now you’ll likely come back and tell me the Ukee Air Force have issued their pilots with dum-dums and have Luke Skywalker pulling the trigger. Whatever. I’m done with your nonsense. When you want an evidence based discussion we’ll see then.
@niall quinn: Had to add a footnote as I may have just spoken there about two human beings as though they amounted to nothing more than prosecution evidence.
The man with hundreds of metal fragments in his shredded, smashed up body left a heartbroken wife and two boys, aged 8 and ten, behind.
His co-pilot, left a similarly heartbroken wife and a two year old toddler who sometimes excitedly exclaims dad’s coming back when he sees aeroplanes pass overhead.
@Pádraig Ó Raghaill: So by your beneficiaries=perpatrators logic we can also reasonably conclude that Brian Johnson killed Bon Scott, Kenny Jones killed Keith Moon and Jason Newsted was driving the bus on the fateful morn Cliff Burton died.
No surprise. The truth eventually outs.
The Puntinistas will be along shortly to accuse the investigation of anti Russia bias and it being all a fraud by the West. But the simple truth is there now for all to see. The Russians and their tame terrorists shot down MH 17 with a BUK missile. Not as the has previously tried to claim (and a lie propagated by many on here) by Ukrainian SU 25.
Most of the Vlad fan club still won’t accept facts Mick, you’re wasting your time with those guys.
@Mick Jordan:
It will be interesting to see what they come up with this time. The SU-25 which had capabilities that even the lead designer of the aircraft refuted as impossible was a particularly mind-boggling example of mental and verbal gymnastics.
As I said above the Puntinistas Parick, Padraig, Joe, Hello Google Tracking etc all trying and failing to either claim the investigation was biased, false, racist, mistaken. And if not the above they try and turn and deflect the conversation away from Russia.
They will be back once they get their talking points from Kremlin State RT. Also all the bloggers registered by the Russian Media Oversight Agency are diligently reviewing the data and a normal level of obfuscation will be restored shortly.
Who are the Russians trying to fool on this one?
The technical investigation proved that the damage to the aircraft was confined to the frontal arc. The criminal investigation has shown that the aircraft was pointing at rebel-controlled territory and had just crossed into it when it was hit.
Unless they’re now claiming that the Ukraine devised a way to fire a missile from behind an aircraft and turn said missile travelling at Mach 3 so that it could hit the plane from the front. You’d have to be delusional to believe the Kremlin’s side of the story.
@Jason Culligan: There’ll be enough little Vladimirs here soon, to claim exactly that
@Jason Culligan: Come on when the Kursk sank they blamed the yanks as well. It’s always the West’s fault.
“Russian-armed rebels shot down flight MH17″
We all knew that on the day itself.
It is tragic for the families though that this changes nothing and no one will be held accountable.
@Business Cat:
I’m sure some Russian soldiers ‘went missing’ after this attack happened. Little comfort to the families who will likely never know why the plane their loved-ones were on was needlessly shot down.
Pretty much like SEAL team 6 all perished shortly after catching and killing a dead man eh?
Joe. Are you claiming that his wives are lying? That the body of his son wasn’t real?
@Jason Culligan: Wasn’t there a theory around in the days following the attack that the BUK came complete with some Cossack militia operators? If this were to be the case, Russia would technically be telling the (semantic) truth in stating that their military personnel and resources played no part in the downing of MH17. And as you state – even if true, this would be of no comfort to the families and friends of the casualties.
Watcher. As the Launcher and Missiles came out of Russia did the crew just go to the local Russian Tesco’s and pick it up? Or did it come from Russian Military Stockpiles on a Russian Military base? And if the latter are we to believe that Russian Military security is so lax around their weapons systems anyone can just walz in with a large Low Loader take a BUK Launcher complete with 4 Missiles, drive out the gate and nobody notice?
@Mick Jordan: No idea. I was just asking whether there was any substance to a story that briefly flashed on the interwebs for a couple of days, back when this happened. My point is that the Cossacks are a militarised sub-society – I have no idea whether they have their own BUKs or get them from Rent-a-BUK or wait for the Lidl specials. My point was that if the operators were Cossacks, then the statement “No Russian Military personnel were involved” is semantically and technically correct.
Ahh so they must have gotten them from the Russian Tesco’s then. They must be great places. You can buy sophisticated anti aircraft systems, The 72 tanks, all the best Russian Military hardware.
The RUSSIANS are WAR CRIMINALS
@Tony Hartigan: Unlike the EU who “democratically” overthrew the Gaddaffi “regime” resulting in tens of thousands of deaths. Or supporting the outing of Assad where there’s half a million dead because “Assad is bad”.
Is he 500,000 dead bad?
@Tony Hartigan:
What about Nuclear bombs on japan = war criminals
Israeli attacks on lebanon and siege of gaze = war criminals
Invasion of Iraq without UN approval based on a lie = war criminals
So a civil war started by the west in Ukraine, which results in the destruction of a civilian plane the stupidly overflew a war zone to save fuel and risk all lives onboard is ok?
Shot down by Rebels, not the Russian army, or Russia.
Like blaming the US for everyone killed by a an American manufactured bullet
@HelloGoogleTracking!:
Attacking known MSF hospitals by American military, even after told = War Crimes
So will Putin’s best pal Trump come out and defend him.
@Peter King: You believe that bull…
And then comes Putin refuting any allegations. A bit busy with the aul refuting with Moscow’s involvement in killing the aid workers in Syria.
Putin /Erdongan /Kim in N.Korea/maybe Trump !!
The World is in the midst of some real Apocalypse I tell thee !
Do you mean the white helmets mrknowitall?
These 298 poor souls are nothing more than collateral damage atleast there relatives have some closure and maybe someday someone will be held to account for these murders. It’s offers some closure to the victims family’s and a far better outcome than that offered to hundreds of thousands of souls who are killed as collateral damage in the Middle East. Whoever fired that missile may not have entended to shoot down a defenceless commercial plane but they knew they would shoot down some type of aircraft. It was a military act that was ordered from someone in command. Hopefully lessons have being learned that flying commercial aircraft over a war zone is ill advised. I hope someday Ukraine will be able to bring to justice those who tarnishes that great nation will a unjustable deplorable war crime.
The saddest thing about this whole saga is that there should have been no need for investigations. If from the beginning the Russian’s has said “Mea Culpa” we are sorry, it was a mistake. Then the relatives of those murdered would have had closure. But it just shows that Russia is still stuck in Soviet mode. Deny everything. Lie and obfuscate. Blame everyone else.
@Mick Jordan:
The report blames Ukrainian rebels in Ukraine – not Russia.
They simply say the weapon was manufactured in Russia, and is used by Russia and Ukraine……the rebels could have got it from any military base in the east.
HGT. Who gave them a missile and launcher capable of reaching that altitude? Now the report clearly states that it came from the Russian Federation and the Launcher returned to the Russian Federation minus one missile.
@HelloGoogleTracking!:
Actually, no they couldn’t.
You see the Buk missile system is a highly complex piece of equipment. The controls for the Buk take months of specialist training to complete, require teams of support troops to maintain and require supporting radar units to guide the missile onto target.
The odds of the rebels capturing an intact Ukrainian launcher and radar unit and having the expertise on-hand to operate both systems effectively are negligible.
I have to agree with you there Mick….the Russkis should have fessed up straight away.
This is getting hilarious – now the proof of who is responsible is out there, all of a sudden according to HGT they’re not “pro-Russian rebels” any more, they’re now just “Ukrainian rebels” (even though for the past couple of years HGT and the other Puteenies have been going on about how they’re ethnic Russians who want independence from the evils of neo-nazi Ukraine yada yada yada….).
So they shot down a passenger jet but never fired on Ukranian jets….seems a bit weird.
Jonathan what are you waffling about? They had shot down several Ukrainian planes prior to MH 17.
@Johnnathan Biskalero:
Eh… the UK-AF got pretty shot up in the early days of the conflict…. eventually they ceased ops altogether, attrition was too high.
Go easy on him Mick – I imagine the troll factory keeps their bots on a short leash.
False flag, no jet, no flight number. See Truthseekers101 on YouTube.
Foxtroot Oscar you idiot.
Sure, a YouTube channel run by conspiracy theorists is more reliable than a multi-year long investigation by aviation experts.
@ACturnbull: this page might be good for you, since you seem to buy tinfoil wholesale
http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/grocery-categories/Aluminium_Foil_in_Tesco.html
Yes Jason ‘year long’ fake investigation revealed exactly what the sheeple were told from the outset. How convenient.
@ACturnbull: Well one wonders why flight control vectored it over an active war zone with multiple air defence shoot downs prior.
@ACturnbull:
You are the one who is accepting the words of some mentally delusional individuals on YouTube who see conspiracies at every turn over the words of experts who are trained and experienced in air crash investigations.
@meltyface:
They didn’t ‘vector’ it anywhere. MH17 was flying along an established flight corridor which was considered safe for high-flying civil aircraft. It was believed at the time that the rebels did not possess the hardware required to down aircraft at 37,000 feet and would have no need to shoot at such aircraft anyway.
ACturnbull. So according to you there was no plane and no victims. Then maybe you can explaine why every government, agency and organisation on the planet say yes there was a plane and yes it was shot down and yes there were innocent victims. Even those that disagree as to who shot it down agree that it was real.
Wow truthseekers101….. I suppose JFK/911/area51 and solved too… Oh and Elvis & Tupac are still alive… Thank god for Truthseekers
Here’s a fun little fact – every tinfoil-wearing crank who refers dismissively to ‘sheeple’ has learned and copied the very term ‘sheeple’ from someone else. The irony…
Feeding trolls is bad for everybody
Idiots for flying over a war zone to save fuel……hopefully lesson learned by airlines.
Should never have been shot down, but flying over a war zone is reckless in the extreme, as proven by this tragedy.
So it’s Malaysian Airways fault now? You Puntinistas really to plumb the depths to protect Russia.
@Jason Culligan: But what really did they say?
Confirmation of what we already knew. Really shocking and hopefully although unlikely perpetrators will be brought to justice.
In establishing any crime you first establish a motive, then you ask who is the main beneficery of this act. Stating it was Russian made or as the BBC says the “Missile came from Russia” are meaningless. Who possesses these missiles? Certainly not the Rebels, so it can only be Russia or Ukraine. Then you look at who is on the panel of investigators and blah blah blah enough………………
It came down by a BUK missile, yet in this age of technology where almost everyone has a video recorder on their phone.
‘Thousands of witnesses’, yet not one video of a missile being launched on that day, here’s a video of a BUK missile being launched, you can see the exhaust trail is very obvious.
https://youtu.be/DDXScnEKaP0
There are witnesses as seen in the BBC deleted report stating that they seem military jet fighters in the air around the time of the attack.
This is a stitch up, operation Northwoods style.
Sorry Frank.
Even your boys in the Kremlin dropped the jet fighter/air-to-air missile angle on Monday.
You probably didn’t get briefing notes.
@Joe Corleone:
The jet which whitnesses claim to have seen was an SU-25. When the Russian government claimed that perhaps a Ukrainian SU-25 was responsible, Sukhoi (a Russian firm and primary supplier to the Russian Air Force) were quick to point out that the aircraft was physically incapable of doing so.
Not really Jason, the maximum ceiling of operation of the frogfoot was well within striking distance, but anyway, seeing as your a bit of an ‘expert’, can you explain to me why the black box recordings weren’t fully released? And why they’re stuck in a military base?
@Jason Culligan:
Had the Kremlin been smart enough to falsify a different airplane, like a Mig-29 then their lies would have carried more weight.
Actually Joe there are photographs and witness statements of a missile trail, but it originated in rebel territory. Your supervisor must have forgotten to mention that to you…
@Joe Corleone:
Joe, remember what I said about Sukhoi rubbishing claims that the SU-25 was even remotely capable of committing such an attack?
I’ll take the word of the manufacturers of the airplane over an anonymous Twitter account:
http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/03/11/buk-missile-took-out-mh17-russia-military-expert/
So where’s the photos Avina, surely the would have been presented at the briefing?
The black box questions Jason? Can’t answer that can you?
Joe. Even Moscow have accepted that it was a BUK missile why can’t you? And the investigation team have stated at the press conference that they are not going to publicly release any evidence they have gathered because to do so may predeudice future criminal trials.
@Joe Corleone:
What black box questions?? The official investigation report confirms they had full access to all black box data, as documented here:
https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/77c9b856be08report-mh17-crash-appendices.pdf
Any suggestion otherwise is just yet more Kremlin propaganda and smear. The game is up, and the more desperate yourself and the other Puteenies get the more laughable and easily disproven your claims become.
@Joe Corleone:
Oh and Joe, one of the photos showing the missile trail WAS presented at the briefing – 38:29 in this link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BtBEV_rAd0
@Joe Corleone: “can you explain to me why the black box recordings weren’t fully released?”
Joe -can you tell me where you normally find blackbox recordings “fully released” before an inquest or in this case a criminal prosecution?
Would you like them stuck up on Spotify or Soundcloud so we can all pour over them?
But seeing as you, an apparent advocate of the ‘Su25 shootdown theory’, bring up black boxes -maybe you’ll enlighten me on how you think the tiny 6lb warhead on an air-to-air missile -perhaps fired in concert with a machine gun or even a canon (presumably while the nefarious Ukee air force pilot steers with his ass-crack) managed to stop BOTH the CVR and FDR black boxes dead at the exact same moment?
@Avina Laaf: But no access to US Military images they had of the plane being shot down or to the Ukraine witnesses of it being shot down, why and John Kerry stated they had those images as I stated earlier on this thread.
@Alois Irlmaier: John Kerry stated, I believe I’m correct in saying, they detected the ‘heat signature of the launch’.
Both the DSB and JIT indicated, with thanks, what they’d received and not received (Russian primary radar) from various parties. They got everything they needed from the US. They may or may not have revealed everything they got from them. That’ their prerogative. The presentation on wednesday doesn’t allude to the heat signature. It’s conclusions and deductions are not diminished one jot by it’s not being in there.
I can’t help but think that people looking for disclosure of what the US (or NATO) saw or were capable of seeing are interested in that information for reasons way beyond the scope of this criminal investigation.
@niall quinn: John Kerry stated they have satellite images of where the missile came from striking the plane, why will they not release this to the investigation, youtube clip link on earlier post here…
@Alois Irlmaier:
Out of curiosity, where exactly did Joh Kerry state that the US had images of the plane being shot down?
@Alois Irlmaier: Alois I’ll say it again -the JIT have not indicated any dissatisfaction with the level of co-operation they’ve received from the US. That means (a) the investigation has your ‘satelite images’ from the US but didn’t see fit to include them in the presentation for their own good reasons or (b) the investigation didn’t need US satelite images to slam dunk this. Sure they’d copperfasten or bootstrap it but they’d ultimately just be confirming something demonstrated and confirmed by other information.
Comrades Pat and Pádraig have really had their work cut out today. Alarms going off at the troll factory – keep going boys, those old RT links won’t copy-n-paste themselves!
The journal refers to this as a “tragedy”….while acknowledging that these civilians were murdered by a military or para military force…with that intent. This was an Atrocity, not an accident.
Are ye sure it wasnt Lee Keegan that did it???
Why are the journal censoring comments on here?? Twice I’ve tried to post a comment yet it doesn’t show up!
@TDV: Good
There are two side to every story and so far what we’ve seen is credible evidence released and presented from one side only. Washington has said they have absolute proof that the missile was fired from a rebel held area but refuse to release it, why so?….
I’m by no means a fan of the Russian government but the wests story seems to be full of holes. I could be wrong but if we recall Obama himself stated last year that Washington had “brokered a deal” in support of “regime change” in Ukraine, which suggests direct involvement by the US.
Given the history of US involvement in many countries where they support regime change along with lack of, or lose evidence suggest that Washington are still playing from the same old playbook and we all know how they like to “spread democracy”.
@Gazza Lazza: You do realise that the West’s Story was carried out by experienced Crash and Criminal investigators who when asked for Russian participation in the investigation were refused and stonewalled. Russia killed off any UN investigation before it even got going by the use of it’s veto. Not exactly the actions of an innocent party.
Added to their refusal to assist in the investigations they put out multiple versions of what they claim happened, each of which were shown to be utterly preposterous.
@Mick Jordan:
Yes Mick sure and Enron release reports saying they can see no evidence that carbon and fossil fuels affect the climate.
Look all I’m saying is lets reserve judgement until all the facts are on the table because until then and only then is all this just speculation.
The only credible evidence I’ve seen has come from the Russians, if the west has real evidence then lets see it. So far all we have seen are statements based on very sketchy evidence, speculation and youtube videos don’t count as credible evidence as far as I’m concerned and taking other factors like the notion or the wests definition of regime change says to me that not all the pieces fit.
Which version of the Russian evidence do you find most compelling? The SU 25 story or the Spanish ATC or maybe the magic Ukrainian BUK missile that turns 180 degrees at Mach 3 in the space of a few hundred yards from the target to explode in front of the Aircraft?
Aul Mick McCarthyist Jordan creaming yourself today with this sh*t aren’t ya haha fs get a life man, Phuk off to Thailand n get yerself a lad-bride ye PR!cK ye.
What’s wrong Joe. Don’t like the Truth about your buddies being revealed? Suck it up.
Nothing wrong bro, and who the f*ck knows what the truth is it certainly ain’t what the JIT reports findings are.
I’d love to know what your definition of “credible evidence” is Gazza…
And you know this because Moscow says so, Joe!!!!
@Joe Corleone: “who the f*ck knows what the truth is…” Brilliant. Truly answered like a proper Russian diplomat. Truth is elusive, etheral, like quicksilver. Like trying to catch water in a net is truth.
Now, have a strong coffee and get back to me about the FDR and CVR both stopping at the exact same moment. I’ll get you started -FDR stands for Flight Data Recorder ….
@Avina Laaf:
Credible evidence?
Facts & rational thinking rather than here say and youtube videos.
Look I’m not defending Russia, heck knows they’re guilty of numerous things, I’m just not sold on the western story and simply because their story lacks definitive proof and also have holes in the story, also proof they are unable or unwilling to provide. There is no bias here, I’d rather wait until all the facts are in before making a judgement, I’m just saying given the wests history I’m just not going to take their word for it.
@Gazza Lazza: I’d suggest you read the official investigation reports and then apply some rational thinking. No hearsay or youtube videos there, just facts and verifiable evidence, which is pretty compelling (far more compelling than the Kremlin’s story, which has changed several times as facts have emerged each time which blew the previous story out of the water). They have launched a huge propaganda and disinformation campaign, as shown by the various commenters here who have faithfully parroted the Kremlin lines (Ukrainian authorities withheld ATC recordings, radar data was not released, black boxes were confiscated and hidden, bodies were confiscated etc. etc. etc.) even as other posters have disproven the various points.
@Avina Laaf:
I have read the official investigation reports and I’m still not convinced. As I’ve said I’m not willing to just take their word for it, at least not until all of the facts are out and hey we may never get the full story but that is to be excepted I suppose.
There have been many “official investigation reports” that have been full of bias.
As you’ve said yourself, Ukrainian authorities have withheld lots of information, Washington have also withheld information, apparently information that proves beyond a doubt that it was the rebels/Russia but yet refuse to release it, why so? there are many right questions that have yet to be asked and many right answers that have yet to be given, the propaganda machine works both ways
Exactly what information are you accusing the Ukrainian authorities of witholding?? Investigators reported full cooperation from Kiev.
I’m well aware that both sides in a conflict engage in propaganda, but the investigation reports are based on verifiable facts, not some unpublished ‘proof’ which the US claims to have.
@Joe Corleone: The weekend’s just about over Joe -and you’ve had over three days. I’ll have to take your restraint from coming back on here, if even only to call me or anyone else names, as a concession you can’t explain how a frogfoot with a tiny missile and a machine gun stopped both these black boxes you’re all upset about dead in their tracks at the exact same moment.
The fog of war. The rebels had one BUK and the Govt force had 43…several right on the edge of rebel held areas. Many others hold the view that it was hit by the model the Ukranians had rather than the rebel one. Of course there are many factors at play here so any investigation carried out in the west is only going to lean one way. For them to conclude that the govt held model was the one that hit would be unthinkable.
Patrick. Why on earth would the Ukrainians have anti aircraft missiles stationed in a battle zone where the enemy doing the fighting has no aircraft? That would be sheer stupidity as it would use up not only the crews but tie troops for provide security.
and why shoot at an aircraft coming from the west, where your own forces are?
@Patrick J. O’Rourke:
And why tweet that you shot down a plane if you didn’t?
@Patrick J. O’Rourke:
And why hide a tweet about shooting down an enemy plane, unless of course it wasn’t?
And why claim a provide evidence of a plane shooting down an airliner if that plane is incapable of shooting down an airliner?
BUT all the weapons Ukraine military has are USSR made from bullets to BUKS to tanks and all made in the 80s?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78r1qAHUVwY
John Kerry stated they had satellite images of the plane being shot down in Ukraine but will not release them?
More US led spin…
have your say