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Civil servants' trade union urges members to 'vote no' to Croke Park II

The Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants have said the proposals were “unfair” and “disproportionate” on its 2,700 members.

THE ASSOCIATION OF Higher Civil and Public Servants (AHCPS) have called on its 2,700 members to ‘vote no’ to the Croke Park II proposals.

AHCPS General Secretary Dave Thomas said the proposals were “unfair” and “disproportionate” and a no vote would send a message to government:

Our members are essentially being asked to bear the brunt of these cuts – on top of successive cuts and levies in recent years. Meanwhile the government resolutely refuses to engage on the broader matter of equitable taxation, something that would allow for a much fairer approach.

Public sector trade unions are at odds over how they are advising members to vote  on the proposed extension to the Croke Park agreement.

The 24/7 Frontline Service Alliance says the deal will result in pay cuts of between 3 and 11 per cent for many workers, and are calling for it to be rejected. However, SIPTU, the union representing more than 200,000 members,  said that the proposals on the table were “the best that could be obtained through negotiation” and are urging for a ‘yes’ vote.

Meanwhile, the Garda Representative Association says the deal now being voted on by the trade union movement is “blatantly unfair” and have questioned the Taoiseach Enda Kenny’s judgement for allowing it to be put on the table.

The deal being proposed aims to achieve the entire €1 billion in savings sought by the government over the three-year period by increasing working hours, cutting overtime rates, cuts to pensions, sliding pay cuts for workers earning above €65,000 a year and reducing the Sunday pay rate.

Read: Frontline workers ramp up campaign against Croke Park 2 >

More: Four unions launch joint No campaign to Croke Park 2 >

Read: GRA protest at the Dáil over cuts to pay >

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74 Comments
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    Mute Gerry Corbett
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    Mar 20th 2013, 12:52 PM

    Banker gets 850000 euro
    Worker’s get croake park 2
    Vote Vote No

    230
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    Mute Regonald Timpson
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    Mar 20th 2013, 4:45 PM

    Can the country even afford the public sector payroll?

    Did you see what we pay compared to other Eurozone countries?

    17
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    Mute Jim Kavanagh
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    Mar 20th 2013, 7:40 PM

    Did you see what CEOs are getting, have you seen the pay rise for CEOs in this country since 2009?

    13
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    Mute werejammin
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    Mar 20th 2013, 12:45 PM

    Proper order. Fine Gael have ripped up the current agreement to ‘negotiate’ (i.e. dictate) the terms of a new one which will be legislated for anyway if rejected.

    Showing their fascist roots as always.

    176
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    Mute Regonald Timpson
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    Mar 20th 2013, 4:51 PM

    Not everyone rejects a 20% salary increase like the one back near the time of the millennium.

    12
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    Mute werejammin
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    Mar 20th 2013, 5:37 PM

    I hope you remembered to stand up when you were pulling that figure out of your behind.

    30
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    Mute Terry Turner
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    Mar 20th 2013, 1:08 PM

    Top civil servants and politicians should be taking even bigger cuts to establish the moral authority to implement the cost savings that this country unfortunately needs.

    150
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    Mute Regonald Timpson
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    Mar 20th 2013, 4:48 PM

    At what point (if ever) will some come to realize that any public employees are there to serve the public?

    19
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    Mute Elisabeth Butler
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    Mar 20th 2013, 5:38 PM

    What is your definition of serve?

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    Mute Tommy C
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    Mar 20th 2013, 7:34 PM

    Public employees like myself have studied our backsides off to get a medical career. We put ourselves through constant training courses to upskill and constantly learn new and innovative technologies. We pay for this ourselves. This training we pay for allows us to be good at our jobs which in turn is good for your healthcare and treatment. We are not here to SERVE anyone.

    33
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    Mute Jim Kavanagh
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    Mar 20th 2013, 7:43 PM

    And they also PAYE/USC/PRSI LEVYS etc and your point is??? Lets do a once off 10% tax on all savings etc over 250,000 euros, what say you then??/

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    Mute Gavan Duffy
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    Mar 20th 2013, 8:12 PM

    Nice Trolling there Reg.

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    Mute censored
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    Mar 20th 2013, 10:15 PM

    Some people have trouble with the “serve” part of “public servant”. But we already knew that.

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    Mute justasheedy
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    Mar 20th 2013, 1:21 PM

    This is not a negotiation. The government came in and said it wanted 1 billion. There was no movement from this figure. That’s not negotiation that’s dictatorship. Gilmore has said in an earlier story that if cp2 is not accepted that cp1 will be torn up immediately. The goverment will implement the changes with or without the agreement of the people it directly affects. This is not a fair deal for anyone. This government has not delivered on any of its party promises and are failing its people who they are misleading constantly in my opinion.

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    Mute Regonald Timpson
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    Mar 20th 2013, 4:48 PM

    It is clear that the public unions no longer care about anything but their agenda (in some cases). That said, there is a great deal that can be done to counter them including the troika. The troika analysis more or less warned that if the high pay in the public sector wasn’t dropped or otherwise reformed, we would not need to introduce new taxes or increase existing taxes. The union screamed and opposed. Everyone should use it to counter them.

    12
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    Mute Elisabeth Butler
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    Mar 20th 2013, 5:35 PM

    You keep going on about this high public sector pay Reginald. Go on please list below what you would describe as a fair wage for the following public sector workers: for the sake of simplicity let’s suggest a fair wage for someone with 10 years experience.
    Nurses
    Doctors
    Firemen
    Police
    Teachers
    Tds
    Senators
    Office staff
    Bus driver
    Go on, enlighten us all!

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    Mute 5☆Fily
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    Mar 20th 2013, 5:51 PM

    How about along the same lines as other similar countries in Europe pay their employees for these tasks ?

    Germany for example

    17
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    Mute Elisabeth Butler
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    Mar 20th 2013, 6:08 PM

    Well go on then, give us some figures…..

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    Mute Jim Kavanagh
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    Mar 20th 2013, 7:54 PM

    Their agenda, the farmers agenda, shareholders agenda, private sector agenda, the church agenda, the money salted away in Cyprus, Spain holiday homes agenda.Quinns agenda, Lowery Agenda, Goodman agenda,

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    Mute Elisabeth Butler
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    Mar 20th 2013, 10:09 PM

    I didn’t think you’d actually come up with anything Reginald. The usual rubbish-talking public sector bashers who haven’t got a notion! @5*fily thank you for just having suggested a 10k payrise, because that’s what the equivalent German in my job would earn. And before you go and dispute this fact, I just got it off the OECD website, and yes the figures are up to date. Now stop talking sh*te

    13
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    Mute Stephen Adam
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    Mar 21st 2013, 5:52 AM

    @ Justasheedy
    The government cannot move from 1 billion because that’s what it needs. The public finances are a disaster. The negotiation is about how best to generate that 1 billion – not the 1 billion itself.

    @ Elisabeth Butler
    It’s not realistic or helpful for people to suggest what is a “fair” wage for those workers. The only person who can decide what their work and qualifications are worth is you. If you deem the age fair then take the position, if not – look elsewhere.

    @5Fily
    Germany is not a comparable nation to Ireland – they are both a European financial super power and they have a significantly larger population.

    It’s unrealistic to suggest that PS workers should be earning the same as their German counterparts. Elisabeth I hate to be so blunt about it but if the conditions are better in Germany perhaps you should consider moving there?

    The sad fact is that Ireland is in this mess because of Irish people – we have a choice. We can sacrifice to put our country back on track or we can refuse to sacrifice and seek personal opportunities elsewhere.

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    Mute Elisabeth Butler
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    Mar 21st 2013, 1:18 PM

    Stephen, the only reason I named Germany was because this was suggested by 5*fly. I do not consider them to be comparable. You might read Reginald’s constant whining about how public sector workers earn too much, yet when asked how much he would suggest the state should pay he couldn’t come up with anything. So before you tell me again that I should emigrate maybe find out the context of my post. Dankeschön

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    Mute Stephen Adam
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    Mar 23rd 2013, 3:21 AM

    @ Elisabeth

    I read the posts Elisabeth. As I said – what Regonald considers to be “fair” is totally irrelevant. The likelihood is that whatever pay he suggests (given his posts to date) is likely to be low and you are likely to dismiss it out of hand.

    The only person who can adjudge whether the pay you receive is fair or not is you. If you believe it to be fair then there isn’t a problem. If you believe it to be unfair then I suggest you start to look for other positions. You pointed out that German employees in your position get 10k more – Germany may be a good start.

    If you do not consider Germany to be comparable I would ask what country you do suggest as comparable to Ireland – any country of similar size, development, and economic strength would probably do.

    It is not a question of whether PS employees “earn too much” – its about what the government can afford to pay them. Which, right now, is relatively little. That is the problem for PS workers – their employer is bankrupt.

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    Mute Nurse-Interns Earn Their Pay
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    Mar 20th 2013, 2:08 PM

    Sorry Pablo but you are completely and utterly wrong. I am a nurse on less than 35k and I stand to take an 11% hit in my wages, as an independent actuarial report recently corroborated. Fact.

    70
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    Mute Pablo
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    Mar 20th 2013, 2:14 PM

    Fair enough, guarantee you it will be worse if that deal is voted down. Not only will they take your shift they will also cut your basic, which under the current deal they will not.

    14
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    Mute Paul White
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    Mar 20th 2013, 4:14 PM

    Have to agree pablo, unfortunatel I think you are right, there is nothing in this world that will stop this government from ramming home whatever germany tells them to. There isnt a single thing they have done to suggest otherwise. Democracy has been overruled by technocrats.

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    Mute Pablo
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    Mar 20th 2013, 4:22 PM

    You said it Paul when you see what’s happened in Cyprus over the weekend it’s a bit of a leveller. I was fairly annoyed at the union’s government also etc. last month but it wasn’t Angela Merkel who recommended this deal, it was the LRC. We are not getting a better deal and what amazes me is that some people on this forum vehemently think that we are going to keep all our current T&C. This is defo a case of better the devil you know.

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    Mute 5☆Fily
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    Mar 20th 2013, 5:36 PM

    That’s a crazy reduction to face on such a (no offense intended) low wage for a skill set such as your own

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    Mute ag_macnamh
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    Mar 20th 2013, 7:01 PM

    Ah yes but what’s to stop the government from coming back to the pot for more and more if they see the people in public service as weak. It is time to make a stand, not one cent more (to quote a hypocrite of a labour leader!)

    16
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    Mute Padriag O'Utraged
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    Mar 20th 2013, 1:19 PM

    AHCPS represents “senior civil servants and managers in the commercial and non-commercial State sector in Ireland.”

    Are these not the higher paid PS workers that should be targeted rather than the frontline services? No surprise they don’t fancy CP2 much..

    58
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    Mute Regonald Timpson
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    Mar 20th 2013, 4:47 PM

    If the unions’ primary concern was the welfare of the people they serve, there would be no problem. Unfortunately, their leadership apparently places the never-ending expansion of benefits to its members ahead of the needs of the very people who pay their salaries. The thought of the union determining who teaches our children and not the principal of the school who is held responsible is simply beyond the scope of reason. Why would anyone wish to be a principal? Why would anyone send their child to such a school…if they had a choice, which most people do not have? Is there any wonder why the quality of public education is so low?

    14
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    Mute Elisabeth Butler
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    Mar 20th 2013, 5:37 PM

    You contradict yourself! Aren’t the union members those served by the unions?

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    Mute Brendan Greene
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    Mar 20th 2013, 6:52 PM

    Reg,you are talking uninformed nonsense.Unions don’t control the actions of Principals, the DES memos and local agreements,where they apply, do that.l

    12
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    Mute Jim Kavanagh
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    Mar 20th 2013, 7:48 PM

    I earn just over 50,000 gross can my kids go to Uni without fees? I have a farm worth 1 million but I only earn 50k can my kids go to Uni free? I would love the answer, also all our nice CEOs really love their employees, am I correct?

    5
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    Mute David Roban
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    Mar 20th 2013, 5:00 PM

    @ Simon Blake, I’ve never heard a public sector employee being called a leach and I object to that profanity strongly. Who are you to call anyone such an awful name. If you wish public sector employees to work for free, so be it. See how many hospitals and Garda stations are open when this happens. Unintelligent, uneducated, uninformed trolltalk like yours should be left in the gutter. Clown

    58
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    Mute Pierce2020
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    Mar 20th 2013, 1:21 PM

    Honest question, what would happen if Civil Servants went on strike?

    54
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    Mute simonjblake
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    Mar 20th 2013, 4:21 PM

    @Pierce. They wouldn’t dare. They are on such nice gigs that they couldn’t afford to for a week.

    9
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    Mute Operator
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    Mar 20th 2013, 1:40 PM

    GRA & AGSI may recommend a No vote however there members have no vote!

    52
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    Mute Regonald Timpson
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    Mar 20th 2013, 4:44 PM

    Public sector workers average weekly wage is € 918.99 compared with € 611.66 in the private sector (at the end of June 2012), according to the Central Statistics Office (CSO):

    http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2012/earnlabcosts_q22012.pdf

    17
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    Mute Liam kelly
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    Mar 20th 2013, 4:53 PM

    Reginald, still copying and pasting all your comments I see… Yawn!

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    Mute 5☆Fily
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    Mar 20th 2013, 5:34 PM

    Well done Reginald, the fact that they refuse to listen to any facts doesn’t make the red thumbers right

    Your completely correct, the public pay in this country is way over the top and each scale needs to be looked at and regulated in turn where justified

    For every hardworking frontline nurse that’s put forward by the unions there is a lazy useless demarcation merchant gets massively overpaid with no possibility of losing his/her job.

    The government should gut these wasters out of the system and employ people who want to work and will work

    23
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    Mute ged_star
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    Mar 20th 2013, 6:02 PM

    @Regonald Timpson
    The average may well be €918.99, but I don’t even earn half of that, so taking the average is absolute rubbish, should be based on fact not fiction.
    I would love to be on the average public sector pay that you pointed out, but that ain’t going to happen.

    29
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    Mute 5☆Fily
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    Mar 20th 2013, 6:10 PM

    How can taking the average be rubbish ?

    It’s the average!

    12
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    Mute Sean Beag
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    Mar 20th 2013, 7:30 PM

    If you compare individual jobs of a similar rank between countries you will see why the average pay figure is meaningless.

    8
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    Mute Jim Kavanagh
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    Mar 20th 2013, 7:58 PM

    And the average CEOs earnings for the last 4 years was what? thought so, that may you stop.

    5
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    Mute werejammin
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    Mar 20th 2013, 10:09 PM

    70% of public servants make less than the average industrial wage, 40% of those make less than 25 grand. That €900 figure is lying lie statistics at its very best.

    13
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    Mute FuxAcheLad
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    Mar 20th 2013, 10:54 PM

    The average is higher in the public service because it is top heavy. It is also higher because the majority are professionals, as opposed to much of the private sector being for example minimum wage service sector jobs. Employers including the Government want exactly what is going on here, a race to the bottom. Cop on folks, all citizens should stick together to maintain what we have, they’ve already taken too much from both public and private.

    9
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    Mute Pablo
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    Mar 20th 2013, 1:18 PM

    Ha course they would, it affects the majority of them, and not the lowest paid

    45
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    Mute April Walsh
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    Mar 20th 2013, 1:25 PM

    Lowest paid! Ha! Get your facts right!!

    12
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    Mute Pablo
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    Mar 20th 2013, 1:31 PM

    Fact: anyone under 35k not touched.

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    Mute Pablo
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    Mar 20th 2013, 1:32 PM

    Another fact. I said lowest, not lower.

    13
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    Mute werejammin
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    Mar 20th 2013, 1:45 PM

    If you’re going to use the word ‘FACT’ pablo, try to do so when you are correct. Civil Servants under 35K will be working extra hours for the same wage which is effectively a pay cut of 6-7%

    97
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    Mute Pablo
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    Mar 20th 2013, 1:51 PM

    Hold on we are talking physical wages here. It is a fact that anyone under 35k is not taking a hit in their wages. I mentioned nothing in my op about hours increments etc. And another thing I would bet my left nut that if this thing is voted down the government will take money from people under 35k and still increase their hours too. Have you read the LRC document? The LRC have said this, the mediators.

    21
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    Mute werejammin
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    Mar 20th 2013, 2:48 PM

    It is a FACT that anybody working extra hours for the same money is seeing a reduction in their hourly rate i.e. a pay cut.

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    Mute Pablo
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    Mar 20th 2013, 3:30 PM

    Yeah you don’t understand what I am saying forget it

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    Mute eric nelligan
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    Mar 20th 2013, 3:34 PM

    Pablo, all teachers are due to get a pay cut, those over and under €35k. Now that’s a FACT. Yours are only half facts, something indo readers regularly fall for.

    36
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    Mute Pablo
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    Mar 20th 2013, 3:46 PM

    Gave up reading that rag 3 years ago.

    16
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    Mute April Walsh
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    Mar 20th 2013, 5:54 PM

    Ooh I read it wrong.. Didn’t realise it was the high paid guys. Certainly not one of them! Whoopsy! :P

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    Mute keith
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    Mar 20th 2013, 6:50 PM

    Em? I’m on lower than 35k and yet I’m getting deductions? Please get ur facts right

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    Mute Emma Kelly
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    Mar 20th 2013, 9:30 PM

    Agree

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    Mute Penfan
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    Mar 20th 2013, 1:29 PM

    How many unions and associations recommending a “no” vote does that make? Is it 11″, with 1 neutral, 1 Yes-leaning neutral and 2 “Yeses”

    “No” camp
    UNITE, IMO, INMO, CPSU, MLSA, AHCPS, IFUT, TUI, ASTI, GRA, AGSI

    Neutral
    INTO

    Neutral leaning towards “yes”
    SIPTU

    “Yes” camp
    IMPACT
    PSEU

    Looks like it will all depend on how our colleagues in SIPTU vote, because when it comes to ICTU votes, size does matter!

    35
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    Mute Hugh Corrigan
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    Mar 20th 2013, 1:56 PM

    GRA and AGSI do not count as they are not a Union. Their vote is not included with the Union vote. Outside the talks and outside the vote.

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    Mute Robbie Redmond
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    Mar 20th 2013, 2:09 PM

    You missed pna, ifesa, and Nasra in the no camp and very firmly so

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    Mute Penfan
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    Mar 20th 2013, 4:44 PM

    @Robbie Redmond
    Thanks for updating the list – impressive!

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    Mute Christopher Dalton
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    Mar 20th 2013, 6:11 PM

    All that money out of the economy, bye bye more private sector jobs.well you did cause the problem in the first place,.

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    Mute Ru Ni Digs
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    Mar 20th 2013, 4:32 PM

    “We must act for the benefit of everybody in this country and not pander to any powerful vested interest. Be assured that under my leadership, Fine Gael will step up to the mark. We have the people, the ideas and the ambition. We will accept the responsibility of leading this country to a strong and prosperous future”

    http://www.yfg.ie/newsevents/press/126-enda-kennys-ard-fheis-speech

    As hollow now as they were when they were spoken!!!

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    Mute simonjblake
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    Mar 20th 2013, 4:19 PM

    Who would they rather “bear the brunt”. Oh yes, the private sector with no absurd entitlements, juicy pensions and job security. Yes that’s fair. Lets penalize the people who people who contribute to the economy and protect the leeches.

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    Mute Pablo
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    Mar 20th 2013, 4:42 PM

    Ridiculous comment

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    Mute Daisy Chainsaw
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    Mar 20th 2013, 6:05 PM

    Glad you think nurses, teachers, firefighters, social workers etc are “leeches”.

    Should have joined the public service when you had the chance and leech off society with the rest of us!

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    Mute Elisabeth Butler
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    Mar 20th 2013, 8:16 PM

    Oh yes the private sector with no absurd entitlements, juicy pensions….funny thing to say the day we find out about Boucher’s salary don’t you think?
    I don’t want anyone to bare the brunt, I want them to eliminate the waste in the public sector instead of cutting across the board and at the same time paying exorbitant amounts of money for stupid things. But that wouldn’t fit in with your idea of us ‘self obsessed, stupid, scrounging’ idea of public ‘servants’. You really must have a shoulder hanging off that giant chip there.

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    Mute censored
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    Mar 20th 2013, 10:17 PM

    Oh really, Boucher works in the private sector? Funny that. I was sure my taxes are paying his salary too.

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    Mute Elisabeth Butler
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    Mar 20th 2013, 10:34 PM

    Yes censored he does. The government only own a 15% share in bank of Ireland.

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    Mute Shayne O'Donoghue
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    Mar 20th 2013, 4:11 PM
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    Mute Mr Grumble
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    May 9th 2014, 8:44 PM

    Civil/Public servants
    = Self Servants

    1
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