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DUTCH PAEDOPHILE GROUP Martijn, which argues for society’s acceptance of consensual sex between children and adults, cannot be banned, an appeals court said today, overturning a 2012 ruling.
“According to the court of appeal, the work of the association is contradictory to public order but there is no threat of disrupting society,” the Arnhem-Leeuwarden court in the north of the country said.
The decision came after the head of the association, Martijn Uittenbogaard, appealed a June ruling by a court in nearby Assen banning the group, which has around 60 members.
Association
Founded in 1982, the association lobbies for the acceptance of paedophilia but says it is fiercely opposed to any form of sexual abuse.
The appeals court ruled that the fact that some members had previous convictions for sexual abuse was not the association’s responsibility and it had never committed a criminal act.
Words and images on the association’s website are legal and do not advise people to have sex with children, the court said.
Nevertheless, the association is against some principles of Dutch law as it “makes banal the dangers of sexual contact with young children, speaks well of such contact, even glorifies it”, the court said.
But this would not lead to a “disruption” of society, a required condition for an association to be banned, as society is “sufficiently capable of defending itself against undesirable utterances or reprehensible (but not punishable) behaviour”, it said.
Following the ruling, the head of the association tweeted: “Luckily there are still some wise judges.”
A court in Leeuwarden in 2011 declined to pursue criminal proceedings against the association, despite the malaise the group caused even in the liberal-minded Netherlands.
The group’s former head Ad van den Berg was sentenced to three years in jail in 2011 for possession of child pornography.
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She said it best. Poor woman.
I am really very sorry for the family but the mothers comment “The rules should be changed as per the requirements of the Hindus” is ridiculous.
The laws of the land are as he Irish constitution, not what immigrants or any other group think they should be.
Paul, bear in mind the comment is a translation from a different language. It could just be a bad translation.
@paul
I’m sure many doctors adhere to the beliefs of Jehovas Witnesses. So in a way I agree with the mother, just because Savita was in a “catholic country”, why should she have had to adhere to “catholic beliefs”?
I do hope I’ve worded this correctly. I think faster than I can type!
Paul the religious views of the majority should never be enforced upon the minority. This isn’t Iran. If you believe for whatever reason that a foetus has a soul then don’t have an abortion. But don’t enforce those standards on everyone else.
couldnt agree more Barry.
I have absolutely no problem with people who are religious, or have religious beliefs. As long as you don’t force them on me. If they do, we’ll have a problem!
Thumbs down voters stop voting with you emotions and read the article again. I don’t want a country where the law is applied depending on where you come from, if I come from a Muslim country does that mean sharia law applies when I commit a crime in Ireland?
Read the article and use your brain before voting.
I think the foetus should have been removed and the life of the mother saved, however I do believe that any doctor that carried out an abortion would have been hounded out of the country by holy joes, do gooders, misguided and ignorant fools.
If it was my wife I would have been screaming for them to save her whatever it took.
Aisling – it’s nothing to do with “adhering to catholic beliefs”, it’s about adhering to the law. The law of the country applies to everyone. It’s not a “catholic law”.
Regarding the Jehovah Witnesses, read this report on a baby who was saved after a court order against his parents objections on religious grounds http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0112/transfusion.html
My apologies Eamonn. I guess I was speaking in more of a ‘belief’ way than a ‘law’ way.
This is a touchy debate, will many angles. And I’m learning a lot through various comments and people’s opinions, so I apologise if I make any ill thought or uninformed comments.
I agree Paul. But what the mother was saying was that religious laws shouldn’t be forced unto people who don’t purport to have those beliefs. Not that immigrants shouldn’t be bound by the laws of the land.
Link is from mobile, hope it works.
I’m not saying that I think the country is catholic, but the statistics are there, however representative they actually are!
Oh please. You use the census to count the number or practicing Catholics. People just tick that box because they got baptised. Walk into churches on Sunday and see if 84% of the area are in.
Agreed. I was simply showing a source for what I had thought I read!
I guess 84% of people may technically be catholic, but in reality the amount of practicing Catholics would be significantly lower!
@Aisling,
Fair dues, I’m just getting a bit irritated by how the debate and reporting on this issue are focusing so much on the “catholic country” aspect. None of us know the context in which that remark was made. For all we know it might have been a throw away remark by someone who was actually criticising the law. It may not have been meant as justification for not aborting, as is being reported around the world.
Exactly . They wouldn’t change their laws to suit Christians would they
@Paul. the point she was making was Catholic country or not, we don’t all have the same beliefs and nobody should be able to impose their religion’s values on someone of another religion or none, regardless of the constitution. why should she have paid with her life for the values of someone else’s religion?
@Paul Mc I agree, our laws are to be applied to ALL citizens Irish or not who decide to make Ireland their home irrespective of their religion.
If I took a drink (alcohol) and never mind getting drunk in Saoudi Arabia I would get jail irrespective of my beliefs or that my home laws accord me that grace.
India itself has some pretty stringent and ruthless laws wish we would have to observe like it or not if we were living there.
When in Rome do as the Romans do once said my grandmother.
This of course does NOT mean I agree in any way with this law and its tragic outcome (especially when there is existing legislation to avoid such tragedies) as I am sure there may be Saoudi Arabians who themselves think the drinking ban is unjust.
The matter of fact is that we are ALL subject to unjust laws and regulations in each of our respective countries and it’s up to us to reverse those unjust laws but also up to us ALL to obey them with no exception to race, religion or political beliefs.
Saying that…..I hope this law is finally kicked in the butt.
“But what the mother was saying was that religious laws shouldn’t be forced unto people who don’t purport to have those beliefs”
YES YES YES. Across all countries in the whole world.
@Barry
Don’t give Iran a bad name.
Seems Ireland is a sad little backward theocracy.
Just like Israel.
If Savita’s family decided to sue the Irish state, would they have a decent chance of being successful?
Yes. There is a failure to enact upon already existing court judgements (x2), of which had both been enacted upon their daughter would most likely still be alive.
If they do take a case, I hope they go for the ninth mile and clean this place out.
“If they do take a case, I hope they go for the ninth mile and clean this place out.”
See now that – that is just irrational.
No, it really isn’t. This state has failed to legislate for something that has a very real chance of happening, and what is more it has failed to do it despite there being 2 judgements stating that it must be legislated for.
The legislation that is in place does less than nothing to protect the rights of the mother, foetus, doctor, nurse and midwife. It protects the interests of interest groups, no more, no less.
This states inaction to legislate for termination of pregnancy has killed these parents daughter, and it is an absolute, unmitigated, thundering disgrace that in 2012 a woman should be put at risk of losing her life due to such a trivial medical condition.
no
The fact that she was Indian and Hindu is a massive red herring. She could have been a devout Catholic from Leitrim; the real issue is whether she received adequate medical attention and if Ireland’s abortion laws played a part in her death. This issue affects every woman in Ireland, no matter what race or religion they are.
Perhaps, but Bernard can you honestly blame either her parents or husband thinking the religion is a big factor in all of this?
They were told they could not have something done because they were in a catholic country, in fairness how could you not think that religion has something to do with her death?
Religion has impacted on this whole issue and to say it hasn’t is just foolish,
anti-abortion lobby groups all have their groundings in religious organizations and they have lobbied for Ireland to remain in the dark ages even in cases of rape, incest or mothers life being at risk.
In this case the baby was not going to live and had she had an abortion on say Monday or Tuesday it could have saved her from going down hill and dieing, even if it was just going to improve her chances by 10% it should have happened.
The doctors had already confirmed the baby was not going to live, instead they left her and left her open to infection and the the complications she experienced.
@barry
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I completely understand her parents’ reaction. If this had happened to an Irish woman in an Muslim country, I’m sure people wouldn’t hold back in condemning Islam.
What I meant was that her race & religion have no effect on how we should react. A few people – including some commenters here – think this story is about an Indian Hindu. It’s not. It’s about a woman. And it could have been literally any pregnant woman in the country.
We’ve got a problem in this country that goes beyond the X Case. In 1983, we voted to recognise the rights of the unborn child. But we have never addressed the rights of the mother of this child. Regardless of what the report into this event says, it’s time Ireland realises that our laws are confused and unfair and they need to change.
This all comes down to our antiquated abortion laws, religion aside, if the doctor had of terminated a foetus with a heart beat, s/he would of faced prosecution. The media is sensationalising a comment that there is no proof was even said.
Exactly Bernard, the very same outcome would have happened whatever the race or nationality. She was a human being and because of stupid religious beliefs she is dead.
I don’t think her husband would lie. But his interview has made it seem like it wasn’t said with any form of malice, just to explain the outdated situation.
i think that she was hindu is relevant because she has never been catholic but died under catholic legislation. the irony in that is overwhelming. of course it would be equally as horrifying if it was an irish woman but the irony of her being indian adds a bitter twist.
Since 1992 at least, according to reports in the Irish Times, and even on my local radio, terminations have been carried out in some Irish hospitals to preserve the life of the mother where it was at risk. No prosecutions have resulted. That makes the recent tragedy even more poignant. Legislation is required to ensure women’s lives are given primacy in failing pregnancies no matter where they present in the state.
I think there is a criminal negligence case here. The Gardai should be investigating!
Les Reed – I wonder how many of those terminations were for example – laparotomy to remove ectopic pregnancies (counts as termination as Stephanie pointed out, but is really being cut open and having some of your reproductive system removed – which carries its own drawbacks I am sure you would agree), vs taking a drug or having it administered by injection and then miscarrying as the body would have had a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) taken place..
Anything that ends the life of a foetus in utero is an abortion. But not all of them are what we would think of when we use the term.
Shanti, what you say is true. The strange thing is that so-called pro-life supporters don’t have a problem when, in the case of ectopic pregnancy, fallopian tubes are removed. They only consider it abortion when the implanted egg is removed leaving the woman’s reproductive organs intact. It is very strange that they need to put mothers through as much trauma and permanent damage as possible before they are satisfied that a termination has not happened.
An obstetrician confirmed on my local radio that he had terminated pregnancies where he believed a woman’s life to be at risk, including terminations in miscarriages where there was foetal heartbeat. I am confident that other obstetricians in the state would have acted to protect Savita’s life had she presented in their hospitals.
I am beginning to have a concern that this matter is stepping way too far out of control. Accusations are being made and people’s opinions are fixed and the reality is that nobody has any facts to ground the assertions that are being made. The entirety of the Medical and Nursing teams involved in the treatment of this unfortunate woman are being accused of either ignoring Professional Guidelines or simply allowing this woman to die without providing the appropriate interventions.
This is wrong and the Minister was quite correct when he asked people to suspend judgement until the official enquiries are complete.
Like everything the enquiries will be skewed and ambiguous so not to implicate the shambles of a state and health service!!!
I’m disappointed at how rare the voice of reason is in the matter too Garry. It’s emotive so we are seeing a lot of irrational opinions expressed. That is just human I suppose.
Have to agree with you. I feel terribly sad for poor woman who lost her life. Legislating for x case is long overdue. But accusing us of killing her daughter because of our ‘beliefs,’ while understandable in the wake of such a tragedy, is still hysterical and We do need to know more before brandishing our picks and forks.
The chances are medical staff did everything within their power to save both mother and child. They would hardly have said, oh we cannot legally provide an abortion so chin up and do your best! As distressful as it is for a woman to have to do, and i am no doubt displaying my ignorance with this question, but if her life was at terminal risk, couldn’t they have sent her to England to have the procedure? There is more to this than meets the eye.
Ailis, she would have had to book an emergency flight to England while miscarrying with a dilated cervix. It would have been near impossible.
John, stupid and uninformed comment. I am sick tired of “Irish” people running down their own country endlessly.
Ireland has one of the best records in western Europe for medical care for pregnant women. That’s the factual reality. There will always be isolated mistakes in hospitals around the world. Let’s wait and see what happened in this care before slamming the country, eh.
Alan, Ireland does generally have a good system of care. But we can always do better and work to improve it. This is obviously a scary story for anyone who has recently started a family, because it’s so pointless and tragic.
Nick, all health care services should always seek to improve. But in all the media articles around the world about this, how many have actually stated that Ireland’s treatment of pregnant women is among Europe’s best? None that I have seen. This is a horribly tragic story, but there are many more of those that occur in hospitals around Europe and yet somehow Ireland is being portrayed as some backward country because of an isolated mistake.
@ Garry Fitzgerald. You are right and logical in what you say. I am not condoning people jumping to conclusions about the medical staff but what has added fuel to the fire re this debate and internationally is the fact that savita’s husband stated that the medical staff told him they would not perform the termination because they said this is a ‘catholic country’. Also the big issue is that government should have legislated for this long ago from supreme court and European ruling so Savita’s mother’s reaction is very understandable. @ailis. Saying that savita’s mother’s reaction was hysterical is lacking in compassion. How would you feel if your daughter died in agony over several days in hospital when she could have been saved? I also agree with nick beard in his response to your comment- fly over to England for the termination….really? In her medical condition? Are you for real ailis?
Ridiculous comment. You want to put a dying woman on a plane? Mad
Alan, the problem seems to be in a very specific situation. Women who are clearly dying receive care (ectopic pregnancies being a good example). Women who have maybe a 40%, 20% chance of dying, like this situation or cancer patients? Less so, it would seem. So you’re right, that this is a very specific set of circumstances, but you can surely understand why this scares so many people?
Ireland has the best care, despite this tragedy.
From the experience of anyone I know who had an ectopic pregnancy it was not an abortion they got – despite the fact that the pregnancy could never be carried to term.
They are all now minus Fallopian tubes or ovaries however, and were cut open when their lives were in danger rather than just being given a drug to induce miscarriage, which is the treatment elsewhere (unless of course the pregnancy has progressed to the late stage each of the women I know were left until, where surgery is necessary life saving intervention).
Ireland has an excellent mortality rate. That does not equate to excellent care. If the health service is measured according to mortality rates only then you we can all stop whinging about the HSE.
Patient care is about more than just whether they live or die. Women in Cork can no longer get physiotherapy from the HSE for musculoskeletal problems developed as a result of pregnancy. CUMH can no longer provide that service so patients have to pay for private practice physiotherapy to treat what can be very long term conditions such as slipped discs, chronic hip pain, symphysis pubic disfunction and more. I’ve seen patients with congenital hip problems who have been turned down physio while pregnant.
Women deserve a higher standard of care than simply being kept alive. What good is life to women if the quality is no good? If Savita had lived but suffered long term damage as a result of her infection would you not be just as outraged? If the infection had caused transverse myelitis and left her partially paralysed? Of if she suffered brain damage due to oxygen deprivation if the infection invaded her lungs?
Calling a pulse a success story is a shockingly low standard to set for a national health service.
Yeah, by all means. Red thumb it without providing any counter argument. Good to know you really stand by your beliefs.
Yeah I wasn’t sure of the timing of when an abortion was requested by savita but since reading more on it, I see that it would have been impossible.
@feargalgarvin no I personally don’t want to put dying women on planes. I was only speculating, trying to understand the situation. No need to get hyper about it
The facts are clear and have been widely reported. As a dentist, she was an intelligent woman who asked for what she knew would end her and her foetus’ agony. She was denied that, and died as a result.
Tens of thousands of pregnant women die each year in India due to malnutrition, brought on by the fact that traditionally men get to eat before their wives do.
This whole issue is being blown out of all proportion. Of course changes need to be made and perhaps people need to be held accountable for what happened the poor woman, but at least wait for an inquiry to be conducted before accusing a nation of murder or claiming medical negligence. You’d think this was the worst abuse of human rights happening in the developed world right now.
The issue is that a person of a completely different culture with completely different beliefs has been effectively killed as a result of someone else’s beliefs.
That person knew they were coming to a different country with different beliefs
I suspect she never dreamed in a million years the church would be ruling a so called rich European nation in 2012
Oh so that makes it ok then Trevor???
Well I lived in a Muslim country for two years and despite its faults I can assure you this would not have happened!
“Tens of thousands of pregnant women die each year in India due to malnutrition, brought on by the fact that traditionally men get to eat before their wives do.” – i think you probably made up the “Tens of thousands” part…
How do you know that?
I think they were under the impression that Ireland was an extremely safe place to have a baby, I think I heard her husband say this. And it is something pro lifers like to bandy about as defence for Ireland when it fails those women who had to go to the UK for a termination. But as one commenter put it yesterday, this may be one of the safest countries to *have* a baby, not the safest when you are having a miscarriage though..
I’m really sick of this argument that India is worse so who are they to complaint. What sort or argument is that? So if Ireland isn’t the most worst its okay. We never have to improve/change as long as we can say “we’ll they are worse then us”
Trevor – the One Choice to Bind Them All fallacy!
Savita’s family must not complain about her death because she knowingly chose to live and work in a country “with different beliefs”?
Her choice, her consequences, she brought it on herself?
She did X – therefore must forever accept ALL the consequences that flow from that, forever?
Absurd!
The Hindu faith does not agree with abortion either!
57,000 maternal deaths in India in 2010 – i.e. at least one mother dies every 10 minutes there in childbearing problems, many related to legal abortions, even though it’s the fastest growing developing economy…
Religion kills! The government and Danas of this country needs to come out of the dark ages!
I think it was medical negligence that actually killed her.
That’s fine! Except, YOU DON’T KNOW. We, all of us, know nothing! And we should not judge until we are in possession of THE FACTS.
I’m ashamed.
why is everyone ashamed to be irish!! weather you agree or not its the law of the land.. i am truely sorry for this ladies loss, but im not ashamed of where i come from because of it.
@Katrina
Doctors have a duty of care towards patients. And it is of my understanding that a termination can be offered in this country if there is a significant risk towards the mother’s life.
It is an extremely outdated “law”.
Katrina Im ashamed because every media group around the world is blaming this state by saying the cause was catholic beliefs & a catholic country which this country no longer is. I want more for this country than it be down graded to a catholic country. It stopped being a catholic country a long time ago.
I agree that unofficially this is not a catholic country, however didn’t I read recently that the census results stated that 80something % of the country considers themselves catholic?
no Aisling according to an article on the journal Ireland is below average in the religious states with only 47% claiming to be religious. The last census did not offer us a non religious or atheist choice. We are rated as low in the religious league. 49% is the average.
As far as Im aware the 47% includes all other religions as well.
I see. I would agree more with that figure, not the stats in this article
Aisling 84% identifying as catholics is misleading. I was raised catholic but I am an atheist & many atheist or agnostics fit into the same slot as myself. Also many atheists are very private about being so as they feel marginalised here.
Were the family not told ‘this is a catholic country’. That is why it is being reported and why the mother is likely asking for provisions being made for hindus. RIP Savita
Nothing can be done to bring her back. But whatever course of action her parents take, I hope they are successful.
Hopefully they get to sue the state for millions and compound the embarrassment our state should be feeling. This needs to be international news, our archaic state should be held responsible.
Hopefully they do, but as has often been seen, those in positions of authority in the hospitals will attempt to settle without accepting responsibility, how many time have our hospitals done this. I hope her parents fight this all the way and force the hospital to acknowledge their negligence.
‘We are very sorry Mr and Mrs Yalagi, but our country is governed by people who bend on the whims of the Catholic Church. We the Irish people feel sad, angry and abandoned by those in power. This is not the only instance of blundering by those in power in our country, there have been countless other instances where people have been abandoned to abuse and neglect. They want power and all that comes with it. We are truly sorry we have failed your daughter and yourselves’
get a grip man
we are to blame, we let them
how about some self-immolation?
thank you William for being one of the voices of reason! how I feel exactly. Youth Defense, who share Atkin’s belief that hormones stop pregnancy resulting from rape and the Catholic Church with all their problems are dictating this policy via a government that’s as fundamentalist religious right wing as the tea party!
wait
for
the
report
How
Many
Years
Do
We
Have
To
Wait
And
At
What
Cost,
More
Lives
Lost
??
I would imagine the report can be sorted in a few weeks? Honestly have no idea how they go about these things but the sooner the better obviously. In the mean time we can look forward to a large proportion of the population jumping to endless conclusion while wallowing in shame
I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for the report emmomac. Such things don’t move fast. The supreme court ruling for case X was in 1992. That was 20 years ago and government still haven’t legislated for it.
Fair point. I am hearing three months now. Surely its prominence warrants a sooner date?
As well as an investigation into the hospital in question perhaps an external investigation should also be conducted into why, AFTER 20 YEARS, the supreme court rule has still not been legislated for. I cannot for the life of me fathom why 20 years after the supreme court ruling on the x case, legislation did not follow suit? Was it negligence on behalf of the successive governments? Political cowardice? Or a bit of both?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0413/mccabet.html
This link is about Gda Tanya McCabe’s death and that of one of her twins ,
due again to sepsis , that happened when she was sent home after misdiagnosis.
There was uproar then and today hardly remembered !
I know evcery case is seperate , but it just shows that nothing has changed.
What happened is tragic and cannot be allowed to happen again… however religion has to be kept out of it. Legislate because its the right thing to do, not because one religion permits it and another doesn’t.
Yes, yes they did..But whom can we blame…doctors, t.d’s, minister for health. If i was her mother id be after the lot of them.
This is what happens when Dark Age dogma overrides 21st century common sense. If the words ‘this is a Catholic country’ were thrown at this poor, innocent woman then I for one don’t have to wait for any report. The country is now a source of derision throughout the rest of the civilised world. The people of Ireland and their pathetic political representatives are a bloody disgrace to allow this barbarity to happen.
“If the words ‘this is a Catholic country’ were thrown at this poor, innocent woman then I for one don’t have to wait for any report.”
Those words are just hearsay as it stands. So, yes, you will have to wait for the report like everyone else if you are a rational person. That husband went through a nightmarish ordeal, and journalists do good work but they are neither medics nor judges. Wait.
This wait-for-the-report mantra is why every pregnant woman in the country is at risk (however small) of suffering the same fate. And possibly why Savita Halappanavar is dead. The highest court in the land submitted its report 20 years ago.
Actually Savita’s husband said that this was what the doctor said to him. Hearsay would be if he repeated something told to him that the doctor had said to that person. “Duirt bean liom go nduirt bean lei” (a woman told me what a woman had told her). Excuse lack of fadas. Can’t get them on the Journal with my phone.
the law, as it stands now, states that a termination can be performed to save the mother’s life, but not her health, can you believe that? if you were suffering a pregnancy that threatened to completely ruin your health – as has been mentioned previously here, brain damage, paralysis etc. – the government, the church, youth defense etc all believe that you should be denied a termination of your pregnancy! I believe it was that differentiation that lead to this tragedy.
Anita, I noticed that too. It seems like they waited until her life was threatened and by then it was too late.
I think the criteria for medical termination need to be widened slightly.
So there should be three main reasons for a medical termination:
Spontaneous miscarriage where the foetus is unviable.
Danger to the life of the mother.
Danger to the health of the mother, either physical, or mental (ie suicide).
Mary all three of those, whilst having merit in principle, are utterly vague and would be nigh on impossible to delineate legally by even the best constitutional lawyers. If a girl wants her unborn killed and removed, under your wording, she could just casually threaten suicide to a GP. Where is the GP left then?
My sincere condolences to the family, however I’m totally disagree with her mother’s statement. Ireland became multicultural society with the common rules stated in its constitution that recognises republic’s identity. And we all have to respect this and follow these laws. However in this case I see medical error where the surgeons were required to set priorities and to save a woman’s life in spite of the law on abortion.
Sure we see medical error, but the main reason IMO is because our many governments have fudged the issue because they didn’t want to lose the pro life vote.
Perhaps. Irish Medical Service is one of the poorest I have ever experienced. It’s obvious that the time came when we need massive medical reforms over here.
Surely if one can abort an ectopic pregnancy legally already, one should be able to abort a foetus where miscarriage is definitely happening. It’s disgusting and barbaric to do nothing. The pain emotionally she must have felt to be losing her baby and all the dreams she had for him/her but to lose your life too. It’s untenable.
But do they abort ectopic pregnancies?
Or do they wait until the mother is in danger territory and perform a laparotomy to remove the pregnancy and whatever else has been affected? Because if they do offer abortions I know some women who really should be suing..
Indeed it’s not called an abortion but they are still aborting a pregnancy/embryo/foetus because it will kill the mother if left unattended.
@shanti. If you look up treatment of ectopic pregnancies, it says the foetus can not survive and is life threatening to the mother so they remove the pregnancy. I read that on an Irish ectopic pregnancy site. nSo what’s the difference in this case? Medical negligence I think.
Yes, they removed the pregnancy, and thus the risk to the mothers life. They also removed the damaged Fallopian tube / ovary, and cut them open, when there wasn’t really any need to do so.. My question is, whether this is routine or if other women actually get given the drugs and manage to keep their reproductive organs intact..
Administration of methotrexate by injection or pill is an option but I don’t know if they do that in Ireland. The medical term for the treatment by fallopian tube removal is still abortion by the way.
Ah, I see. I know which option I’d prefer!
i’m no medical expert… But the poor unfortunate woman was admitted to hospital in Galway on a Monday miscarrying & was told it would be all over within hours.. so why was she left until Thursday when she sadly passed away…It’s not rocket science this woman’s life could & should have been saved….
Gabriel
You said…..you are no medical expert. Agreed . Now contribute no more until you have some or any facts.
He is using facts. She did enter on a Monday. She was told she was miscarrying. She was dead by Thursday.
Poor woman It’s a discrace !!!!!!
I am very humbled, shocked and and very very ashamed, i am so sorry that this has happened to this poor woman, what a truly horrible way to die. Recently i have become more and more ashamed to be irish.
That’s very sad Keith.
But before you feel even more ashamed, why don’t you wait for the report first?
It think the country is going to need PTSD before Sunday at this rate.
Perhaps Keith you should join an amateur dramatics club? You have a talent for melodrama.
I don’t quite no if I’m embarrassed to be Irish, however I am embarrassed that this is the horrible view the world is getting of our country! We are a good country, with good people, governed by some silly gooses though!
No one should be ashamed to be Irish, Indian, Polish, American or whatever nationality they are. There’s no need for that. It’s the law that should be changed and medical care improved. I come from Poland, very Catholic country, would even risk an assumption ‘more Catholic’ than Ireland. An abortion In the case where mother’s life is at risk is the must in Poland, stated by the law and it’s a doctors duty to save a woman’s life in such a situation. And a medical care according to pregnant women… there’s a huge gap between those countries as well. In Ireland a woman is ‘considered’ pregnant at 12 weeks, sees no gyneacologist whatsover during the whole pregnancy, gets one maybe 2 scans, one maybe 2 bloodtests, no doctor is present during labour, baby sees no peadiatrician after being released from hospital. I had two babies in Ireland, so I say by my experiences. In Poland, just to compare, a woman is considered pregnant as soon as she realizes she might be pregnant and The gyneacologist of her choice confirms it by a scan. She gets scan And bloodtests every month, her pregnancy is monitored by a gyneacologist not a gp, The gyneacologist is present during labour always, baby’s development after birth is monitored by a peadiatrician not a public health nurse, and there’s many many more… I think Ireland needs a change in its law urgently. It’s a great country with lovely and brave people, who deserve better, more affordable and easy accessive health care, and the law that would protect their lives, not religion !!
Are any protests being held outside churches?
Why would there be?
It’s because of the church’s influence that abortion is illegal
Why do I keep hearing and reading that the church is responsible? It is incorrect. The law on abortion was a British law from 1860s. It is still on our books.
It is a shame that this woman died. I do not believe in outright abortion myself, BUT in cases of incest, rape and in this instance (the mother is in danger), medical abortion is justified. I do think its ludicrous that professional medical doctors did not do what they are trained to do and uphold their medical code of ethics. By trying to save one life they wasted two.
I think that the law should be changed regarding the above scenarios but dont cheapen the womens death by scoring political points off her. Nor do I think that certain foreigners should demand special treatment based on their faith. At the end of the day , last week, this was the law of the land and none of you gave a shit. Young 15 year old girls in the 50s died in the side of the ditch pregnant and none of you gave any thought to them today.
I’m an agnostic myself but some of the anti catholic sentiments would make Paisley proud. I know you think its cool and “in” to bash religion these days but your still a whiner.
I was only thinking last week that Ireland has escaped the international negative attention once and for all and then this happens. We are not that bad, we are not perfect and maybe this is an opportunity to make a law to protect rape and incest victims and to put womens right at the forefront.
Be proud of who we are ,we are still and always will be a work in progress. This is just a glitch that we will fix.
I hope the lady in question, Savita is at peace.
Thank you Robert for taking the time to put some realism and common sense into the thread. ;-)
But they weren’t trying to save the foetus. It was aborting spontaneously, it was dying. This woman had come to terms with the fact she was miscarrying and had asked them to terminate the pregnancy, it was simply a matter of speeding up the process, her cervix had been dilated all along and that’s just asking for an infection, which she got..
If it was a case that they were trying to save the baby I would take your point, but they were not. They were merely waiting for the foetal heartbeat to stop before they removed the contents of her uterus and allowed her cervix to hopefully contract again. Had they done this at first then perhaps there is a chance that she would have survived, the outrage comes from the knowledge that despite the fact that she was having a confirmed miscarriage (ie her body was aborting anyway) the doctors still could not act to speed up the process because the foetal heartbeat was yet to stop.
Robert, yours is the most rational comment I have read on this whole situation. I agree with all of your points wholeheartedly.
Point 1 It was terrible tragedy
Point 2 Government needs to act on the issue
Point 3 Laws of the country shouldn’t differ for different religious beliefs
Point 4 Before any Indians get started India has the highest mortality rate of children under 5 in the World according to the UN (sort out your country before criticising Ireland)
I was thinking the same thing. Not that we can ever take away whats happened and a tragedy here but India has some horrific ethics toward their children in regards to honor killings and child beggars. The state and their media would need to keep their stones in their pockets
I hate when people say ‘I’m ashamed to be Irish over this’. I’m not ashamed to be Irish but I do agree that this was a terrible mistake and hard to believe that the will of the people was not legislated for 20 years later. Irish people voted to save the life of a mother over that of her unborn child and successive governments have sat on the fence and did nothing about it. That’s the issue here.
heard an Indian guy on radio this morning.
he said that there were millions of abortions carried out in India each year,
& 20,000 (i think that was the figure he quoted) women died each year, as a result of having abortions.
i reckon the Irish situation is preferable for both women & unborn children.
20,000 people in India is equal to 72 in Ireland when you take away the population differences. Then take into account the poverty levels in India and access to even basic healthcare and I think we can completely disregard that point.
don’t know what point you’re trying to make
my point was that “i reckon the Irish situation is preferable for both women & unborn children.”
You can reckon that all you want you’d still be wrong. Healthcare access in India is abysmal. In Ireland it’s relatively good. The WHO puts the risk of death from safe abortion as carried out in the UK at 1 in 100,000. Taking the number of Irish women who have travelled to the UK for abortion since the 80′s and you’re talking about a grand total of 1.5 women. Meanwhile we have 5.7 women dying per 100,000 live births.
You are so right Michael. It is besides the point, but there is a huge gender balance in India, with an estimated 30 to 70 million women “missing” partly due to abortions based on sex selection.
And due to the fact that women are second class citizens. It’s just ignorant to claim that women are oppressed due to abortion access – it’s a symptom of the way women are treated, not the cause.
ok Stephanie
no reckon
the Irish situation is preferable to that of India, despite the wide availability of abortion there, for both women & unborn children.
& not only when compared with India.
Ireland is a very safe place for a womwn to have a baby – for both mother & baby,
& we should all be happy with that, rather than asmhed – shouldn’t we ?
how many women per 100,000 live births. die in the UK, Stephanie ??
Of course the Irish situation is preferable to India. What an inane question that proves absolutely zero about abortion. Abortion is also widely available in Sweden which has a better maternal mortality rate, we’re tied with Greece which also has abortion widely available. Austria is also ahead of us – again abortion widely available, so is Australia and Luxembourg and Italy. All of which have legal abortion.
To answer your question 8.2 women die per 100,000 live births in the UK which also has widely available abortion. Oh and you should know that Mali has the same rules on abortion as us and 669.7 women die per 100,000 live births.
You should also read those words carefully – per LIVE births. Savita’s death will not count among those statistics, nor will any other situation where both mother and fetus die.
Sorry folks, I may be off on the stats issue there. Currently trying to establish how it’s calculated and presented.
The uk figure is 12/100,000 so access to abortion solves the problem, does it?
I always thought that the duty of care for doctors was to their patients first, Savita was their patient not the baby. Deeply embarrassed to be Irish and never thought I would say that. RIP Savita.
But Suzanne, we don’t know anything yet other than the poor woman (and the baby) died. All we have so far are the words of a grief stricken husband and father. I’m not calling the poor man a liar or anything but we know no facts yet as to how she reached her condition and what they tried to do to save both lives. If it is true that they refused an abortion on moral or legal grounds then sure, it’s a shitty country we’re from. But I personally refuse to judge this until I see the reports/investigations findings first of all.
Yes, Suzanne, it is yet again embarrassing to be Irish, especially abroad. Last night, this story was all over Dutch teletext. A terrible tragedy regardless of the facts as to how she reached her condition, Meehawwl. We’ll see if the reports shed light.
if you mean that we should be embarassed because we don’t have abortion like they have in England, in this state, i’m certainly not embarassed.
we don’t know exactly what went wrong in this tragic case,
but unfortunately things go wrong, in hospitals, in every country.
we frequently hear of huge compensation for victims of medical error, but these victims don’t get the publicity that the unfortunate victims, in this case are getting.
wonder why not ?
Probably got something to do with the fact that their medical care was badly administered as opposed to being illegal.
Didn’t the Supreme Court rule on this 20 years ago , it’s been successive governments who have failed to act on it , so that needs to be sorted ASAP
As for what happened agree that we need to wait on the report
David
Don’t be so ignorant. How could the Courts rule on something that didn’t take place until twenty years after their Ruling. What are the facts of this case as you know them. Are you a staff member of the University College Hospital Galway or are you just making it up on the hoof?
We currently have three facts. The unfortunate lady was admitted to the hospital due to a miscarriage in process. She was treated with antibiotics for unknown reasons. She died from septicemia .
That’s all we know. Anything else is dangerous speculation.
Suspect you are the ignorant one Garry if you don’t understand what David Curran was saying about a SC ruling 20 years ago.
Garry, you missed one of the other facts we know.
She was miscarrying, in a lot of pain, requested a termination (to move things along as it were) and was refused.
Gary, you’re so adamant that people are being stupid, just for stating their opinions, which is what this space is all about! we know more than the three facts you’ve stated. we know that she was refused a termination on a miscarrying foetus that had no viability, because the law here forbids a top to protect a mother’s health. we know this because her husband told us this. or do you think he’s lying?
Nope Gary don’t work for any hospital and not making anything up , maybe you should have a look back at some old newspapers
Finding this sensationalist take on a woman’s death to be more than a little disrespectful to the departed and her family. Wait for the report is the rational attitude. No doubt the press have taken full advantage of a very sad situation
Christina, I really agree with you on this. Things are getting a bit out of hand and people are using the situation to further their own agendas.
I think the person who made this “sensationalist” statement was Savitas mother.. So rather than disrespecting her memory or her family, she is just venting her anger in this time of grief.
Why are we all so sure an ” abortion” would have saved Savita’s life ?
Has it been established when her life was first believed to be in danger .
Two fundamental issues.
Wait for the report.
There’s no guarantee. But it would have been less likely, as the longer a miscarriage occurs, the less likely blood poisoning will develop. The report won’t be able to say it 100% would have made a difference, but the option for treatment certainly should have been there, regardless of the foetal heartbeat.
Been reading about this on and off all day
It’s is very sad that this has happened
May she rest in peace
No mater what we say here or in the Dail or on the news or in the papers this poor woman has lost her daughter through negligence. There are issues in India for sure way more than can properly be discussed here. But she wasn’t in India she was in Ireland. Discounting that countries stance because they are not without flaws is, in my opinion, grasping at straws in an attempt to somehow justify how we have let this woman down . Shame on this government that this legislation won’t go through this week in order to protect any other poor soul who may find themselves in this situation.
“It is important to remember that Ireland has one of the lowest maternal death rates in the world.”
Indeed, Henry. But you’d never know it the way the country has been denigrated in the last 48 hours.
Ah yeah, quality of life should only be measured by whether you’re alive or dead.
very lame, Stephanie.
surely, you can do better than that ?
Not only can I, I did. See a comment above or here, I’ll copy and paste it for you.
Ireland has an excellent mortality rate. That does not equate to excellent care. If the health service is measured according to mortality rates only then you we can all stop whinging about the HSE.
Patient care is about more than just whether they live or die. Women in Cork can no longer get physiotherapy from the HSE for musculoskeletal problems developed as a result of pregnancy. CUMH can no longer provide that service so patients have to pay for private practice physiotherapy to treat what can be very long term conditions such as slipped discs, chronic hip pain, symphysis pubic disfunction and more. I’ve seen patients with congenital hip problems who have been turned down physio while pregnant.
Women deserve a higher standard of care than simply being kept alive. What good is life to women if the quality is no good? If Savita had lived but suffered long term damage as a result of her infection would you not be just as outraged? If the infection had caused transverse myelitis and left her partially paralysed? Of if she suffered brain damage due to oxygen deprivation if the infection invaded her lungs?
Calling a pulse a success story is a shockingly low standard to set for a national health service.
The report. Will it actually tell us anything ? Will its contents be released in full ? Who knows. I do know that the tide of public opinion already appears to have made its judgement and that is what will be remembered. Ireland is too busy sucking up to the IMF et al to pay any heed to its inhabitants needs. Sue the Irish state is what I say to that lady’s family. Not for money because no amount of money will replace your loss, but to go all the way to a full and factual revelation of what happened, how and why. Better still, if you can get India to sue Ireland on behalf of one of its citizens then go for it. It’s shameful what has happened and Ireland cannot be let off the hook for it with no consequence.
Man on the Stree
Gabriel has no facts and he claimed this woman was left to die. That is a monumental slander and so totally unfair when the idiot has absolutely no facts. If I were a member of the Medical team I would sue his ass off and the Courts would give me access to his IP address. So let’s be very very careful here and await the enquiry as set up by the Authorities.
The doctor or surgeon can not break the law no matter how much they would like to and if it is not legislated for then they can’t do it end of. I guarantee had they done it, it would still make news for the reason of killing a UN born. It’s terrible what happened a disgrace to be honest but UN less the government make it law then it will happen again.
I believe that we have been dishonest in how we deal with abortion in this country. There was no overwhelming clamour for legislation because the safety valve of UK abortion existed. However, in this instance we should wait to find out what actually happened and in particular why the hospital took the decision it did. Was it for clinical, ethical, religious or legal reasons? It is important to remember that Ireland has one of the lowest maternal death rates in the world.
Maternal death rates refer to child birth don’t they? This woman was having a miscarriage, where do they fit into that statistic?
Actually, the maternal mortality rate (MMR) is the annual number of female deaths per 100,000 live births from any cause related to or aggravated by pregnancy or its management (excluding accidental or incidental causes). The MMR includes deaths during pregnancy, childbirth, or within 42 days of termination of pregnancy, irrespective of the duration and site of the pregnancy, for a specified year.
Thank you, I wasn’t sure on that one..
@meehaawl. We know this poor girl and her husband asked for a termination of the pregnancy which all knew was never going to go full term with a living birth. This was denied them. For whatever reason it should have been their wishes adhered to.
‘m not ashamed to be Irish, we have punched well above our weight in many scientific and cultural fields. However I am ashamed of the history of religion in Ireland and the world in general. This is just one of a long litany of crap to happen because otherwise intelligent people believe sky fairies intervene in human affairs. I’m sorry I don’t believe in the equality of all views. Religious persuasion may have been an acceptable position in the thirteenth century. In the 21st century it should be considered the same as belief in spell casting or voodoo. This is the price society must pay for a progressive society. Ideas are not human and some ideas should be ridiculed. The failure to do so has resulted in a degree of societal lunacy not seen even within psychiatry. As long as we deny evidence humans will continue to be a liability to each other.
Well I am embarrassed to be Irish with headlines like this all round the world. The reason I’m embarrassed – because it’s true. This woman died because of medical negligence, our appalling attitude to abortion, our warped relationship to Catholicism, our despicable spineless morons in government who have been too busy lining their own pockets to legislate real issues and our continued allowence for the Catholic Chruch to keep a firm choke hold on our nation. We treated that woman in a barbaric manor, we would not treat our dogs in such a way. So yes I am very much ashamed!!!
There are so many things going through my head about this tragic situation, some opinions I’ve formed and some questions.
1) I understand that termination where the mothers life is at risk is a constitutional right but that it is illegal.
Therefore I understand that an OBGyn would not be in a position to carry out a termination. However I don’t understand how Savita was allowed to become so ill that she died. Could she not have been aggressively treated for the infection ? I guess this is where the report will shed some light.
2) the comment about Catholic Ireland I believe may have been out of context and said more in exasperation of the current situation than from a moral standpoint ! I understand that a doctor cannot refuse to treat a patient based on moral grounds but can refer the patient to another doctor.
3) I know that Savita was desperately ill but why wasn’t an alternative arrangement put in place where she could have been medically transferred to the Marie stopes clinic in Belfast where they could have treated her ? This a genuine question. Could it have happened ?
4) this whole situation is the fault of every government that has been in power for the last 20+ years that failed to legislate on a constitutional right. I think it’s immensely arrogant of them to think that the nation just accepts this. So I for one will be doing everything I can do to change this. I have contacted every local TD to demand the issue be legislated for and I will continue to do so. I urge everyone that has an opinion here to do the same.
Marie Stopes only offer abortions up to 9 weeks. Savita was at 17 and regardless, a transfer would have been impractical in the medical condition she was in.
The interview with her husband would indicate they said that to explain to her why they were legally bound, not that they personally refused…
With regards 2, I wonder whether the comment was made in frustration, as in “I wish I could help but this is a catholic country”, I know my mother always refers to “holy catholic Ireland” in situations like these.. Perhaps with a slight language barrier it could have been lost in translation, but we do not know and will indeed have to wait for the report.
With regards 3, as I understand it her cervix was dilated throughout, transfer may have made things worse. Her husband said she was given antibiotics upon arrival so the sepsis may have been present or she may simply have been miscarrying, but leaving her cervix wide open for so long most certainly would not have helped.
All this talk of transferring her is nonsense. You can’t put a woman with an open cervix on a plane. Nor should you bloody well have to.
@Stephanie Fleming: No its not nonsense. If you know a hospital won’t do what you want or that they are not taking something seriously then why wait around? Its called common sense
The woman came in looking for an abortion from the first moment before her open cervix.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0910/1224323797477.html
This event took place very recently in Dublin -
International symposium on maternal healthcare.
Really needs to be publicized more in light of events.
No, it doesn’t, because it was a pro-life publicity stunt. The spokesperson mentioned is Eoghan De Faoite, a doctor no more than two years out of college by what I’ve heard and current or former president of Youth Defence (not sure which). The conference was not mentioned in any respectable medical publication, not referenced by any article and not backed up by any research. Every speaker is a known anti-choice campaigner and the committee that set it up was started less than six months ago.
YD may seem to not be as violent, hateful and vitriolic as they were in the nineties but all that’s happened is they’ve gotten some PR lessons from their benefactors in the US.
It shouldn’t be given a single line in any publication.
That’s the point I was making. Also look who was one of the organisers and where they are based.
Think more, rant less.
If that was your point it was badly made and there’s no need to get narky over it. And it’s my understanding that this particular man is based in the university, not the university hospital. Is he actually in practice?
The docor is going to get away with this scott free isint he, she was legally entitled to and should have been given an abortion like she had askied for.
Bottom line is if a woman went into hospital tonight having a miscarriage she would be made go through the agony and torture and could die #Fact
Thanks Nick. That answers the question about Marie stopes. Sooner there is change here the better.
think of it this way to wait for the report to come out would be the worst outcome
religion may or may not played a part in decisions made at the time
what was said by whom and to whom is now irrelevent and sadly so
the fact is that this lady died and the possibility is that it will happen again
so it would be high time that the legislation would be put in place asap
this is not a question of hands been tied behind there backs
rather it is a question of why they sat on them for so long
There’s no evidence that an abortion would have averted this terrible tragedy. I don’t understand why labour wasn’t induced immediately – the appropriate treatment for an “inevitable miscarriage”- characterised by full dilation and broken amniotic sac/waters. This would have been a perfectly legal option, regardless of the presence of a heartbeat.
Unfortunately, however, we do not have the full story. And E. coli septicaemia, esp ESDL is a very serious illness. We need to wait for the findings of the investigation.
Not, it wouldn’t have. There’s no provision for an abortion for an unviable foetus unless the mother’s life is clearly at risk. Based on her husband’s interviews, it seems clear that her life was not deemed to be sufficiently at risk and so doctors could not terminate.
An abortion may not have stopped this tragedy, but it would have made it much less likely due to less time in labour. We need to make the law clear so that doctors know exactly what a “substantial risk” means. 20% risk? 30%?
Out of interest what is the Hindu position on reproductive rights does anyone know?
Do what will cause the least harm, balancing the two lives. Overall, balancing an unviable foetus, an abortion would have been granted immediately under Hindu law.
Leave out the Religeon, think of it from a Human perspective….
If your wife or sister had 2 small kids and she was in this situation, what would you think?
Should you follow the law and have 2 motherless kids, or face reality and allow the woman the right to live and be with her living kids….
The fact that she had medical training (as a Dentist) and knew the risks of infection, and that she asked for, and was refused a termination should be the issue here. If she was refused a DNC for either Religeous or Legal resons, then someone is responsible for the death of this young woman. Thats what this artical is about, her mothers outburst…
But this is Ireland, no-one will ever be held responsible. The Law will be vindicated. The politicians will breath a sigh of relief and kick the can of Legislation on the matter down the road. And good old Ireland will return to Status Quo Ante…
Nothing will change in this country because we all espouse change, but fear it too. This will happen again. All we can do is spare a thought for this poor woman and her poor husband that she leaves…
Life is precious and cannot be bought in any supermarket, or by any religious bodies, or any ethnic group in any country of the world. RIP Savita loss her life today and cause lots of distress among her love and close one, instead of bringing joy and happiness to her family in few coming month with the birth of the decease child.
We will keep on discussing on this matter and this will bring nowhere, unless the people in power have the guts to bring a reform in the legislation to help any other human being from facing such a painful reality. Race, religious belief, color, EU or non EU does not matter when your life is at stake. A medical practitioner must be way beyond any third party decision when it comes to the life of his /her patient, as he is the best person to judge over the safety of the person, respecting life and death and to act on compassionate cases for the well being of his patient, and in the interest of his own conscious,as he deliver the best of himself to protect and save the life of his/her patient. Tomorrow it can be any one in the same situation. The time is to act on the matter for a change. Jitsingh.
The fact that this is predominantly a Catholic country should have no bearing on this case. Savita had every right to expect that her life would be given primacy over that of a failing foetus because the Irish Constitution allows it, as the Supreme Court ruling of 1992 clarified, and because the Irish Medical Board Guidelines indicate termination as the procedure to follow if a woman’s life is at risk. Certainly since 1992 and possibly since even the 1983 referendum, terminations have been carried out in some hospitals where the consultant followed the spirit of the Constitution and protected the life of a woman with a failing pregnancy. No prosecutions have arisen as a result. Following the enquiries, Savita’s death may indicate that not every consultant will act to support the Constitution in the absence of legislation to enforce it. Pro-lifers and pro-choicers should not hi-jack this tragic death for their ongoing battle and prevent swift action from our notoriously contentious shy legislators to enact the Constitution and prevent similar tragedies befalling pregnant women for presenting to the wrong hospital.
Tragic though this woman’s death is it pales in comparison to the 50,000 plus women who die each year in child birth in India , the Indian government would want to clean up its own act.
Maternal mortality rate
Ireland: 6/100,000
UK: 12/100,000
India: 212/100,000
Who’s in a position to point a finger at Ireland?
when a pregnant woman waters break she needs to go straight to hospital, Savita did this . The hospital needs to check her temp. reg and after 24 hours if she hasn’t had her baby she needs to be put on a IV anti-biotics. this needs to happen no matter how far along into her pregnancy she is. this didn’t happen to poor Savita this is total lack of basic care.every pregnant woman needs to know this, seeing Irish doctors don’t!
If she’s too early in the pregnancy for the baby to survive those actions need to be taken way before 24 hours pass.
Twice 51% of the country have blood on their hands. Lets get the same question asked for a 3rd time, we usually say yes the 2nd time so better chances this time!
Blood on their hands? Still trotting that one out where there is a woman dead? What about her blood shed? Give it a rest and have some respect.
@Harry Coffey: @zedabelzer: we have laws ..obey those laws till we change them..stop blaming our laws
Very personal article written from an Irish perspective about abortion published in a US website xoJane
There needs to be unambiguous legislation on this matter and clear guidelines for medical staff. The whole “we won’t do it because we don’t want anything to do with this, but feel free to go to other countries who managed to take a stand on this issue and here’s your information leaflet – have a nice trip”-attitude is nothing but hypocritical.
I find it hard to explain to someone not from Ireland that raped women who wish to have an abortion for quite understandable reasons have to be shipped out of the country in order to do this. Modern Ireland has an open-minded, progressive society and I cannot understand why this is not reflected in Ireland’s legislation or its Constitution. Successive governments have acted in such a cowardly manner. Why can they not take a clear position on this? As a result Irish law does not say black or white or even any of the 50 shades of grey.
It is about time that this madness is ended. Most other countries have managed to draft legislation that allows abortion under certain circumstances and grand rights to pregnant women that no person in their right mind would deny them.
Oh shut up. No one asked you to come. There was sufficient time to go to England. The lady was well enough for 2 days and demanded an abortion the moment she walked into the hospital
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faZj8L5pqGw&feature=related Sativa demonstration via Ellen Cooke
shocking story! Just so tragic… found this link yesterday and was genuinely surprised..have a look perhaps others will be too..www.catholiccomment.ie/news/14-nov-2012.html.
It appears that even within the Catholic teaching, doctors SHOULD have intervened and induced the poor girl… if the doctors were Catholic, it appears they didn’t know their own teaching. Clarification needed there too it seems!
have your say