We need your help now
Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.
You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.
If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.
Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
By continuing, you are indicating that you accept our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.
Updated 1.30pm
GOVERNMENT TDS SHOULD be allowed a free vote on certain matters under a series of radical proposals to reform the Dáil that have been suggested by a backbench Fine Gael TD.
An internal document circulated among the Fine Gael parliamentary party this week has outlined a series of proposals that would radically alter the way in which Dáil business is conducted on a weekly basis with TDs allowed to vote against the government on certain issues.
The document, seen by TheJournal.ie, is authored by Dublin South-East TD Eoghan Murphy who has previously called for TDs to have a free vote on upcoming abortion legislation.
In the document he calls for a wider loosening of the party whip system to allow government TDs to vote against the coalition on certain matters as well calling for the reform of Leaders’ Questions to allow backbenchers to ask questions of the Taoiseach.
A Fine Gael spokesman said that the document has been discussed with senior figures and is in the spirit of the party’s 2011 general election manifesto which “contained a strong element of political reform” but noted the proposals are not currently party policy.
In the document Murphy criticises the current party whip system whereby any government TD who votes against the government position is automatically expelled from the parliamentary party. He says this “in essence means that a TD can never take an opposing view to the leadership”.
He says the party whip system should remain in place for important bills such as those concerning the Budget but calls for it to be relaxed in circumstances where TD might wish to introduce a “meaningful amendment” to legislation which the party leadership may not support.
He also proposes that the whip system be removed when:
Taoiseach Enda Kenny has explicitly ruled out a free vote on legislation for the X Case on abortion, despite calls from one junior minister.
At present any government TD who votes against the coalition is automatically expelled from the parliamentary party as has happened to Fine Gael’s Denis Naughten and a number of Labour TDs.
“The government can not be expected to draft the best possible legislation every time,” Murphy writes in the internal document saying that the “state and the country suffer” as a result of members being subject to the party whip “on every single decision”.
Murphy also proposes that Leaders’ Questions be taken by the Taoiseach once a week for 40 minutes and that each opposition leader be given 10 minutes to have as many exchanges as possible with the Taoiseach. A provision for backbenchers to ask questions of the Taoiseach should also be introduced.
He calls for reforms to the committee system including holding committee meetings outside the time when the Dáil is in session as well as time for committees to report to the Dáil chamber. Other proposed reforms include:
“A parliament should never be reduced to acting as a vehicle of the executive for rubber-stamping its decisions,” Murphy writes saying that the “vast majority” of what happens in the Dáil is an “aside to the main week-to-week business”.
He says that issues are often tackled outside of the chamber in committee and “to a greater extent” in private meetings with ministers, civil servants and special advisors.
Murphy claims that initial reforms introduced by the government in September 2011 such as Friday sittings, topical issues and extra sitting days have not been built upon.
A Fine Gael spokesperson said in response to a query about the document: “We have many young, ambitious and capable TDs and Senators, who are not currently office holders. They are anxious to see us pursue a strong reform agenda.
“While the proposals contained within this document are not currently party policy, we have a number of fora through which our members can raise new policy ideas, and stimulate debate.”
Eoghan Murphy did not wish to comment when contacted last night.
Updated 1.30pm: Following our story this morning, Eoghan Murphy has published the document ‘Reforming Dáil Éireann: A view from the backbenches’ in full. The 24-page document can be read here
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
What appears to be proposed here is the opening up of debate and openness in Government.
Guess Enda will be gtting rid of Mr. Murphy so.
My first thought as well.
Are we getting more cynical or more realistic?
Jim
I think we are getting more cynical because we are getting more realistic.
Its depressing to think that we live in a country where an open debate would actually be a radical reform.
Johny
Thats why FG have attempted to stop online discussion forums like The Journal. People like FG who are so far on the right that they are meeting the far left on issues like open debate don’t like the freedom of speech & expression the internet has brought.
There’s a difference between disliking a forum and disliking what is posted in that forum. If you’re in doubt as to what FG believes, a read of this column (posted on this site) from Minister Ciaran Cannon is worth a read.
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/social-media-regulation-ciaran-cannon-745542-Jan2013/
Enda kenny wouldn’t be able to talk straight for five mins never mind 40.
The only “radical reform” needed is to reduce the number of TDs to around 50 and abolish the Senate.
In a true democracy TD’s would ALWAYS be allowed vote against their party..
But this is an FG/Labour dictatorship
There is merit in a free vote for some issues but look at the US congress and senate free vote system for every bill! It becomes a mess.
There shouldn’t be a free vote. If people don’t like their parties policies, they shouldn’t accept the party money when running in an election.
Yeah this doesnt go nearly far enough to create a true democracy. We need direct democracy!
Actually this applies to all partiesin the Dail, not just FG and Labour
there is no democracy in government ..you toe the line or get expelled
Yes please!
Party whip system usurps power from the legislative branch to the executive and damages democracy.
We have too many TDs also … 70/80 would be nearer the mark.
And how did you reach that totally arbitrary number? The smaller the number of TDs, the greater the importance of each and every vote, which increases the temptation to apply a strong whip as the loss of a few votes could be vital. So your model would just lead to a further concentration of power in the Government.
So increase it to say 300? Would that help? No. Cost savings for a start. Smaller numbers equals less resistance to change, better chance of a meaningful new option open to change. There’s 2 whips in currently, one within cabinet and the rest. No chance that any of current parties are open to real reform
Without a whip, the US senators shamefully voted down proposals to provide for background checks on gun purchasers due to pressure on them from the NRA. (The problem we have is meaningless manifestos and a rigid whip system which makes zero sense).
Except that it wouldn’t have passed WITH a whip either, given party numbers in Senate.
US Filibuster makes such comparisons onerous. Also, the US Senate under-represents the most populous states, which (it happens) are also the most liberal ones.
But if the US had a system like ours, it wouldn’t be possible for one party to form the executive while the other had a majority in parliament.
Firstly you need to check your facts. America does have a party whip system. One of the reasons Congress and Senate can end up voting different to the whip is that 1) individual candidates are responsible for a lot of the funding that got them there – meaning vested interests that can be more powerful than the threat of whip. And 2.) that there is a far more complex selection procedure to becoming a congressman/senator that makes party expulsion/committee deselection an arduous and lengthy task.
TL:DR America has a party whip system. Stop saying it doesn’t.
Knowing that Fine Gael are conservative to their core a free vote on social issues by TDs from this party would see Ireland return to the 1950s
Sure that would be way to Democratic!!!
I notice in interviews lately, ministers and TD’s ask and answer the questions themselves.
I’m impressed they seem to know the answers.
Only some matteres. That is key. So basically Enda can choose and pick. So no real change then just another false promise of change but no real change.
This illusion of democracy is starting to wear thin.
Do free votes really work and deliver the best possible outcome? We the ordinary people have a free vote to elect people who have us and the countries beat interests to heart!!! Look where that has got us in the past!
Our free vote doesnt work as we cant get the traitors out for 4yrs after putting them in.
You should look up direct democracy in places like Switzerland. No system is going to be perfect and without abuse. But direct democracy offers citizens a real opportunity to see matters brought to forum and voted on instead of out representative ‘democracy’ which only allows for three forms of political action that provide limited direct democracy.
At least with a free whip, people will need to put much more thought into the personality and merits of the candidate as opposed to the party flag they fly.
Yes, we have a vote and yes we allocate it preferentially to a number of candidates. However, certainly in general elections, that doesn’t mean we get what we think we are voting for even if our chosen ones are elected.
The last GE is a case in point. Both FG and Labour published manifestos that were the, supposed, mainstays of what they would do if elected. Central to both of these were Job Protection/Creation, protection of the poorest and burning of senior bondholders.
What happened, however, was a programme that bears almost zero focus on the supposedly key points. Instead, we have a government that chooses to interpret its election as a mandate to do anything even if the opposite of the promises and commitments made.
When will it happen, why aren’t their pay/expenses/pension/numbers not being tackled and is it more hot air?
TDs and ministerial pay was due to be cut by Croke Park II but that’s dead now.
It wasn’t like TDs were going to take much of a hit at all. Those cuts youre talking about are largely ceremonial in the scheme of things. And heres why: Th salary for a member of Dáil Éireann is €92,672 and that for a Senator €65,621. At first look you’re looking at a CP2 cut of 5.5%-8% of pay. That figure can easily be made back up in the system of allowances and expenses. For example a Dublin-based TD could have a package worth almost €200,000, including unvouched expenses and two secretaries or parliamentary assistants at a combined salary of €70,000 in the first year after election. With vouched expenses he or she could be pulling in about €210,000. If the TD lived in a far-flung district of Co Kerry, extra travel expenses would bring the figure to about €235,000 – and if the deputy were an Independent there would be €41,152 on top of that, making a total of about €276,000 before tax. So yeah woe betide the state that TD’s wont be able to take hits like the rest of us.
Well said – the “marginal rate” of tax for TDS when expenses are included in earning can’t be over 30%
Disgraceful!
If td’s had any back bones they would vote the way their constituents want them to vote for,not the party. That’s why democracy never really existed in ireland.
We really need TDs to move away from the constituent/parochial politics. TDs are elected to a National Assembly. They should be focused on national issues. It’s county councillors that should be concerned with local politics. Its a broken useless system either way. But you’re right, if TDs had a back bone I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t be in half the mess we are now.
Then you support whip politics. The only way a national executive can work is by promoting the election of policies over individuals. Perhaps a Germany-like list system?
The Dail numbers should be reduced, with perhaps 30-40 TDs elected via a list system. More power should be diverted to local councils to deal with local issues, with the priority of those issue dictated at a national level (e.g. 25% of local funding must be spent on building of local sports facilities etc…). And local councillors should be full time.
Of course all the rest of the common-sense reforms (fully vouched expenses etc…) should be brought in at all levels.
Most TD’s don’t understand the legislation anyway so a free vote option would mean special interest lobbying. Look what happened when FF had to offer to the Kerry independents to get laws passed. You think that would not happen again if a TDs vote could stop legislation?
I agree on the committee changes. Most of the Dail floor talk is just PR waffle.
Dennis Laffey, I really don’t get how you get my saying National Assembly for national issues and local assembly for local issues = support party whip. I’ve explicitly said NO to party whips. I agree with all your points that you made. What would the point of my local councillor in Dublin deciding what should be done in Kerry or vice versa. Local issues are best addressed by those locally. It is simply that if there is a need for national policies to be made that they are made at a national forum with people who are free to vote in the best interest of the country. It follows that we have a representative from across the land to carry out that vote. I would much prefer direct democracy/technical groups.
LOL
Now they are stealing the proposals of Direct Democracy Ireland and twisting them to suit their parties draconian leader agenda!
…Sure why not – they are trying to steal everything else from the people!
So it’s not your argument that matters, but who gets to say it that matters to you?
The point is that the entire system needs to be changed – just not changed and twisted again and again – like many times previous.
Its this typical regurgitated antics that convinces people that such changes are a waste of time, when the twisted version is allowed to taint the more original and proper idea.
Ifs its worth doing – its worth doing RIGHT!
Why don’t they just cut to the chase and introduce a the direct democracy system that’s in Iceland and Switzerland??………cause they know we’d fire the lot of them , repeal their scandalous pensions /pay and nationalise our resources.
There is no democracy in this country!
…but watch out traitors its coming!
Genuine question: who would we put in instead of them? Would there be enough new candidates in the next election to fill the Dáil?
I really think Direct Democracy is a far better system of governance. All the more so when you consider our population isn’t massive, and the geographical size of the island isn’t massive either.
What about a general election? Is that too radical or them?
We are meant to live in a democratic society. TD’s should have the freedom to vote on particular issues based on their own belief systems. Just because you are part of a group of like minded people that have similar view points on most things does not mean that you will 100% agree on everything.
Smells a lot like D.D.I. in parts you know that new party the media pretend doesn’t exist. and F.G Labour and the rest have to worry about but spoof they are not.
Dose committee equal quango
No. Committees are made up of TDs and Senators and are a fundamental part of any democracy. They’ve nothing to do with Quangos
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/oireachtasbusiness/committees/
It will never happen. Murphy is whistling against thunder!
When you look at the last European treaty and FF. Eamon o Cuiv was against it. If he had won the leadership of the party in all probability the party would of campaigned for a no vote. Such grave decisions should not be made on how the leader of a party sees an issue. Removing the party whip makes alot of sense. On important issues TDS should be able to vote how they think their constituents what.
Another reform I think should be passed is to get rid of proportional representation. One would vote for one person and whoever gets the most fills the seat.
This is a load of shite. Yes they may bring this in for some of the unimportant stuff that needs a vote at 10 pm at night with 10 tds sitting in the Dàil talking about slurry in rural ireland. Guaranteed though for the major decisions the party whip will be out in force.
how about reform of the expences of tds.its ridiculous that in this day and age we have unvouched expences.if you spend money on something you will have a receipt so what’s the problem. no receipt no money.
In a Revenue Audit unvouched tax expenses would NOT be acceptable by the Irish Revenue Authorities. How many TDs have had Revenue audits in Ireland?
Did not Liam Cosgrave vote against a Fine Gael proposal when he was Taoiseach?
Taoiseach Enda Kenny gave a pre-election undertaking that his Government wouLd Not legislate for abortion. If he forces all Fine Gael TDs to vote on Edna’s whip he is revealing himself as a dishonest Leader of the Fine Gael Party. He received a mandate from the electorate on his party pre-election undertakings. Lets have a response from an Taoiseach!
I think the whip should remain for votes that pertain to the manifesto the party releases before getting into government. As in if the party gets elected on a platform, then it is reasonable to use the whip to get that platform passed. After that I think they shouldn’t be allowed to use the whip for anything else.
Fine Gael gave a pre-election undertaking that it would NOT legislate for abortion – yet Enda intends to impose the whip! A contradiction in reality! Where’s Fine Gael 5 point plan?
never going to fly …any political is build on centralised control and power …they aren’t going to give it away, even within the wider party
DDI are being shunned by the media,,,,Why is it because the powers that be have something fear,i know i want Direct Democracy,a party for the people by the people ,from the bottom up instead of the top down.in order to do this to get rid of the corrup government,cronyism,jobs for the boys,decisions behind closed doors, we have to take a leap of faith this can be scary,but what is the alternative. if we want real change,we have to look elsewhere.
DDI are being shunned by the media,,,,Why is it because the powers that be have something fear,i know i want Direct Democracy,a party for the people by the people ,from the bottom up instead of the top down.in order to do this to get rid of the corrup government,cronyism,jobs for the boys,decisions behind closed doors, we have to take a leap of faith this can be scary,but what is the alternative. if we want real change,we have to look elsewhere.
it is a sad commentary that a proposal to allow elected representatives to vote their conscience or in accordance with the wishes of their constituants instead of how they are told to vote by their party leaders is seen as “Radical”. who ever came up with the whip system in the first place should have been branded radical at the time, radically undemocratic.
Nice thought TDs should be allowed to vote the way their conscience dictates no Leader should be able to force their party members to vote the way the party wants a vote to go. Do we not live in a democratic Country or is it only when it suites that we can be democratic. Don’t believe this will be allowed to happen Enda and Co as will all party leaders not want TDs to have a free vote as they might not toe the party line.
That must be one of the most difficult poses ever staged….to look interested while Enda chatters on:)
have your say