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The Dáil chamber (File photo) Screengrab

'Not fit for purpose?' Why the Dáil's party whip system may need reform

The whip system – where TDs must vote with their party position or risk expulsion – is the subject of some debate in political circles but immediate reform, ahead of potentially divisive abortion debate, appears unlikely.

THIS WEEK THE Fine Gael TD Eoghan Murphy outlined a series of radical reforms to how the Dáil conducts its business including a major overhaul of the current party whip system.

Murphy is not the first and is unlikely to be the last TD to discuss the possibility of members being allowed a free vote on certain issues particularly when the government has a huge majority and with legislation on the thorny issue of abortion due to be debated and voted on in the coming weeks.

“I don’t know if the whip system is fit for purpose to be honest,” one expelled TD, Labour’s Patrick Nulty, said this week. “It’s a very rigid system in Ireland and individual TDs have got to reflect on whether our democracy is working and whether we have system that is robust.”

The whip system – which dates back to the 19th century – is not a creature of any Dáil procedures but is adopted by individual parties, most of whom observe the tradition that if a TD votes against the party position they are expelled from the parliamentary party.

Some, like Sinn Féin, will discipline members by stripping them of certain committee memberships as in the case of Peadar Tóibín who is at odds with the party over its position on abortion.

“If an elected member votes against the party policy there must be consequences,” a Sinn Féin spokesperson said. “If this were not the case, instead of a party we would have a collection of independents voting as they wish.”

Party discipline

With the threat of expulsion hanging over TDs it ensures strict party discipline and allows a government to get its agenda through without any damaging divisiveness. Some expelled TDs quietly return to the parliamentary party months later but others remain out in the cold.

Denis Naughten said he has not been approached by Fine Gael about rejoining the parliamentary party: “If they want to come back and discuss it, my door is open.”

Both government parties have lost TDs over the past two years with Fine Gael’s Denis Naughten expelled over voting against cuts at Roscommon Hospital and Labour losing a number of TDs, including Nulty, mainly over budgetary matters.

With the government having such a large proportion of the Dáil’s overall membership the whip system is particularly scrutinised when it comes to the coalition partners but they are clear that there is no scope for reforming the whip system as it currently stands.

Government backbenchers will vote with the government’s position or else be expelled from their parties.

“Just loosening the whip system will not make it work better than what it is at the moment,” government chief whip Paul Kehoe told TheJournal.ie this week saying that no consideration is being given to the issue at present.

Calls for reform of the whip system and free votes have come from all quarters, ambitious backbenchers like Murphy, a junior minister in Brian Hayes and those who have incurred the wrath of expulsion like Naughten:

“The whip system in Ireland is probably completely different to anywhere else in the world,” Naughten said. “It’s far more rigid than any other democracy where they have a whip system in place. It does weaken democracy when you have such a rigid whip system.

“It would make the Dáil far more effective as a tool in passing legislation if you hadn’t a strong whip system in that it would force ministers to listen and engage with all members of the house.”

In Britain, the application of the whip is a lot less rigid than it is in Ireland with the provision for single-line whips where attendance and voting is not binding on an MP.

Recently over 100 Conservative MPs voted against the party leadership following a Commons debate on gay marriage. None of these MPs were expelled from the parliamentary party or ostracised by the leadership.

Smooth running of government

A one, two and three-line whip system actually exists in our own parliament but its application is non-existent among the political parties.

Not that this is the problem according to DCU political scientist Eoin O’Malley who argues that any issues with the functioning of the Dáil are not solely because of the whip system:

“The problem of the absence of separation of powers is because the government controls the Dáil agenda, controls election to chairs of committees, Ceann Comhairle and the the party leaders control the careers of TDs. Address these issues, and stop obsessing about the whip system.”

The whip system, O’Malley argues, “enables a reasonably smooth running of government” and he believes the issue is not the whip system but rather individual TDs who seem to vote against a measure they say they would like.

“This probably relates to re-election,” he said. “So it is obvious that voters don’t punish TDs who vote against their own conscience, indeed many seem to feel sorry for the TDs.

“The parties obviously have some power over people’s careers and party labels are important for re-election, so TDs make calculated decisions about whether to incur the wrath of the party or not.

But he also noted that some Labour TDs have made the calculation that their election chances are probably improved by being outside the parliamentary party.

“The first interest of TDs is to the people they represent, not their political party,” argued Nulty

One of those could be Dublin-West TD Nulty, expelled over his vote against the 2012 Budget, who said that the onus is on individual TDs to make the “rigid” and “not fit for purpose” whip system redundant:

“The best way is for TDs to stand up and take responsibility, cast their vote on legislation on its merits and if people have courage the whip system will become redundant.”

Nulty said the current government is not interested in reform. This argument is strongly refuted by Kehoe who pointed to the Dáil having sat more in the past year than at any time since the 1920s in addition to the introduction of Friday sittings, Topical Issues and other measures.

“When you’re implementing changes you’re not going to do it all in two years in government, There are more pressing issues to see the Dáil working in a a more efficient way [than loosening the whip],” Kehoe said.

‘Opening the floodgates’

“Just be opening the floodgates to free votes doesn’t mean it’s going to strengthen legislation,” he added, insisting that ordinary backbenchers’ participation in bills has already been increased by the reforms he has introduced.

This view is clearly at odds with that of his former parliamentary colleague Naughten:

“Government TDs don’t put forward amendments to legislation because they could propose an amendment, argue for it, but end up voting against. This is just crazy. For the government to look at reform it would take an awful lot more work within the Whips’ office and the Whips’ office isn’t going to bring more work on itself.”

Naughten said that TDs should be entitled to a free vote on abortion, a view shared by many on the Fine Gael backbenches who have talked about it being a “matter of conscience”. But Kehoe argues it’s difficult to distinguish what constitutes a matter of conscience and what doesn’t.

“Cutting disability is a matter of conscience for me but we are in a space where we have to do it,” Kehoe said. “Cutbacks in specific areas are a matter of conscious, [so] where do you draw the line?”

“Loosening the party whip for legislation doesn’t improve legislation in any way,” Kehoe said.

Eoghan Murphy’s ideas for reform centre on removing the whip to allow TDs a free vote at committee stage of legislation, or during the Order of Business or on certain private members bills. There is no specific reference to the upcoming abortion vote in his document.

But this is where debate about the whip system is likely to focus in the coming weeks and months. The government and the Taoiseach have been clear that there will be no free vote but that might not be the end of the matter according to O’Malley.

He said: “The problem for the government on the impending abortion legislation is that it needs to get a majority, so it can’t lose half the parliamentary party to the other side.

“So what might happen is that Fine Gael allows a free vote but waits until the day of the vote to announce this.”

But Kehoe was crystal clear this week that there is no scope for reform of the whip system now or in the near future: “There will be no free vote on Protection of Maternal Life Bill and no free vote on any bills for the foreseeable future.”

Note: Fianna Fáil did not respond to a request to contribute to this article.

Pics: Photocall Ireland

More: Free vote for TDs among radical proposals for Dáil reform

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36 Comments
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    Mute Dara O'Brien
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:34 AM

    I blame chemtrails, the rothchilds’s, fractional reserve banking, George Soros, the EU open border policy, the mainstream media, Denis O’Brien and FFG/Irish Water

    By blaming all of these, I don’t have to prove any allegation I make and can dismiss all who disagree with me by saying ’baaaaaaaaa’

    387
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    Mute Sean Oige
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:10 PM

    @Dara O’Brien: ’baaaaaaaaa’

    104
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    Mute Frank Cauldhame
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:14 PM

    @Dara O’Brien: Wrong on all of the above usual suspects, it was obviously Kim Jong-Un and Cliff Richard in cahoots.

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    Mute Padraig Corcoran
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:32 PM

    @Dara O’Brien: Keyser Soze?

    30
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    Mute Toomasu Sumitsu
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:33 PM

    @Dara O’Brien: some of those things are responsible for bad things happening. Chemtrails are nonsense but Irish Water does exist. It’s a bit disingenuous to mix them all together like they’re all equally ridiculous conspiracy theories.

    47
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    Mute Dara O'Brien
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:38 PM

    @Toomasu Sumitsu: baaaaaaaa

    48
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    Mute David Jordan
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:49 PM

    @Dara O’Brien: Not true, the no drone story was a miscommunication.

    “The suggestion there may not have been any drones at Gatwick Airport was a “miscommunication by police”, a government source has told the BBC.”

    ” During a conference call between ministers, chaired by Transport Secretary Chris Grayling, it was agreed the 67 drone sightings were legitimate.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46670714

    13
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    Mute John Mulligan
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:36 PM

    @Toomasu Sumitsu: Irish water! Those bstds are out fixing water mains all over Dublin. Do they not care about the cost of all that? Don’t they know that water falls from the sky and is $£€€%÷== free?
    Don’t get me started on Irish water! Bstds!

    21
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    Mute Brendan Cooney
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    Dec 24th 2018, 3:30 PM

    @Toomasu Sumitsu: rubbish.

    3
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    Mute Maximus Decimus Meridius
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:38 AM

    It was a bit odd that no photos emerged!

    140
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    Mute Ian McNally
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:26 PM

    @Maximus Decimus Meridius: no photos is understandable with the speed some drones are capabale of but no videos is a bit suspicious

    48
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    Mute David Jordan
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:55 PM

    @Maximus Decimus Meridius: No, there is footage of a quad copter drone over the airport…

    https://news.sky.com/video/gatwick-drone-caught-on-camera-in-unverified-footage-11587927

    Also, the no drones story was a miscommunication, a reporter was fishing for a story and pressed a police to say there could have been no drones…

    “The suggestion there may not have been any drones at Gatwick Airport was a “miscommunication by police”, a government source has told the BBC.”

    ” During a conference call between ministers, chaired by Transport Secretary Chris Grayling, it was agreed the 67 drone sightings were legitimate.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46670714

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    Mute Joe L
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:36 PM

    @Maximus Decimus Meridius: I’d say there are a few media outlets that wish there were no photos of the couple questioned in relation to the incident!

    8
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    Mute Pixie McMullen
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:32 AM

    Way to go!! Now they have just announced that the airport was closed down solely relying on “eye witness” calls and accounts, not verifiable confirmation of said drones.
    crackpots have just been told that a few phonecalls is going to cause mayhem.
    As if terrorists hadn`t got enough tools in their arsenal already

    142
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    Mute Squiddley Diddley
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:36 AM

    @Pixie McMullen: If eye-witnesses are not enough what would you require?

    48
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    Mute Pixie McMullen
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:37 AM

    @Squiddley Diddley: Video evidence of the drone actually over or around the airport would be a good start – anyone can ring up and say they saw one otherwise

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    Mute Squiddley Diddley
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:46 AM

    @Pixie McMullen: Fair point.

    14
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    Mute niamh ryan
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:59 AM

    @Pixie McMullen: it’s no different than a bomb threat I suppose. They have to be investigated. Better safe than sorry. But saying that I had assumed the drone was seen and/or was being tracked by airport or the police

    30
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    Mute Tom Tom
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:59 AM

    @Pixie McMullen: I thought there were videos on the news of drones in the air?

    16
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    Mute Kathy Paul Dowd
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:39 PM

    @Pixie McMullen: they’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t, had they not closed the airport and a plane was damaged or worse downed they would of been crucified, it was a no win situation for the police and the airport.

    30
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    Mute Jordan Dowd
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:40 PM

    @Pixie McMullen: they’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t, had they not closed the airport and a plane was damaged or worse downed they would of been crucified, it was a no win situation for the police and the airport.

    7
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    Mute Pixie McMullen
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:42 PM

    @Jordan Dowd: LOL – 2 accounts……..Busted! :-)

    47
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    Mute Kathy Paul Dowd
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:47 PM

    @Pixie McMullen: not really I’m on my sons phone as mine has broken, it wouldn’t let me post on my fb account so I thought but it would On his twitter you can follow my fb account and see this is fact, I post in my own name and stand by anything that I post unlike these key board warriors that use fake names pixie

    33
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    Mute Declan Edward
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:48 PM

    @Pixie McMullen: ouch!

    23
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    Mute Fr. Fintan Stack
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:52 PM

    @Kathy Paul Dowd: ’baaaaaaaaa’

    7
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    Mute David Jordan
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:00 PM

    @Pixie McMullen: No, there is footage of a quad copter-drone over the airport…

    https://news.sky.com/video/gatwick-drone-caught-on-camera-in-unverified-footage-11587927

    Also, the no drones story was a from a reporter was fishing for a story and pressed a police officer to say there could have been no drones. He the reporter got his sound bit and ran with it…

    They are now saying the police office was wrong…

    “The suggestion there may not have been any drones at Gatwick Airport was a “miscommunication by police”, a government source has told the BBC.”

    ”During a conference call between ministers, chaired by Transport Secretary Chris Grayling, it was agreed the 67 drone sightings were legitimate.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46670714

    9
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    Mute Pixie McMullen
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:11 PM

    @David Jordan: That makes more sense David, i was only going by what the journal report said.

    Jaysus Kathy, calm down before you have a coronary, i couldn`t care lees if you had 10 accounts, i just thought it was funny

    5
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    Mute Kathy Paul Dowd
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:20 PM

    @Pixie McMullen: lol I’m always calm you’d know that if you were my friend if you’d like to FB friends request me I’ll even introduce you to my sons wayne and Cameron you’ve already met jordan, have a lovely Christmas, chat soon ;)

    12
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    Mute Pixie McMullen
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:29 PM

    @Kathy Paul Dowd: Happy Christmas Kathy :-) I hope you have a good one

    12
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    Mute Mill Lane
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    Dec 24th 2018, 3:58 PM

    @Pixie McMullen:
    And what if there was a drone with an explosive charge waiting near the runway to attack a plane on take off or landing when they are especially vulnerable?

    Not something you’d want to take a chance on .

    6
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    Mute Paraic
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:28 AM

    Dear God no! The conspiracy theorists will be in overdrive.

    85
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    Mute Sam Harms
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:51 AM

    @Paraic: its ok they can use the left over tin foil from the turkey to make some nice new hats.

    47
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    Mute Chemical Brothers
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:52 AM

    @Paraic: they were the ones calling it in

    13
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    Mute Picture This
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:42 AM

    OOoop! Imagine the Garda being that honest.

    54
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    Mute @mdmak33
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:56 AM

    The culprit is the person that broke into the Irish presidents house,evading all security personnel and found in the president’s office and escaped as no name was ever given or charges brought. Strange times.

    42
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    Mute Colette Kearns
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:31 AM

    I smell compo!!

    48
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    Mute Cal Mooney
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:41 AM

    And these guys voted for and are organising Brexit…

    49
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    Mute Malcolm Smith
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:41 AM

    I blame, I blame…..someone!

    34
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    Mute Patricia Mcnamara
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:05 PM

    @Malcolm Smith: it wasn’t .meal olm. Honest

    1
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    Mute Patricia Mcnamara
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:07 PM

    @Patricia Mcnamara: should read. It wasn’t me, Mal colm. Honest. Damed.predictive text and my old fingers

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    Mute ThatGuy
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:34 PM

    @Patricia Mcnamara: ah duck it, it’ll be alright!

    4
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    Mute Malcolm Smith
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:34 PM

    @Patricia Mcnamara: yea right, we believe you!

    2
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    Mute Emer Daly
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:13 PM

    Surely they have cameras that they can look at and them confirm if there were drones?

    27
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    Mute David Jordan
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:13 PM

    @Emer Daly: There is footage of a possible quad copter drone over the airport…

    https://news.sky.com/video/gatwick-drone-caught-on-camera-in-unverified-footage-11587927

    Notice the square outline.

    The police just clarified that there was a miscommunication, there were in fact 67 verified sightings of one or more drones over the airport. Seems a reporter was fishing for a story and pressed a police officer to say there might have been no drones. He got his little sound bite and that sells papers.

    6
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    Mute DeFonz
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:42 AM

    Rudolph & Santa?

    22
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    Mute Patricia Mcnamara
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:08 PM

    @DeFonz: nope. Rudis red nose would have been a giveaway.

    12
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    Mute Pounamustone
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:15 PM

    @Patricia Mcnamara: Christmas cheer starting a bit early there Patricia ?

    16
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    Mute Patricia Mcnamara
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:39 PM

    @Pounamustone: to my horror I have become a Sherry swigger in old age. I sigh for my whisky drinking youthful days. But my hips forbid me to be tipsy. Happy Winter fest.

    9
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    Mute brian
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:04 PM

    Why didn’t they ask for advice from Shane Ross?

    20
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    Mute Craig Hughes
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    Dec 24th 2018, 11:40 AM

    Omg UFOS over gatwick airport

    18
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    Mute Ian James Burgess
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:05 PM

    Why, because they were unable to deal with the situation let’s pretend it never happened.

    14
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    Mute ian holmes
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:58 PM

    Can’t believe everyone is still droning on about this story………

    14
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    Mute Liam Byrne
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:55 PM

    Misleading headline is misleading.

    11
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    Mute David Jordan
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:04 PM

    The no drones story was a miscommunication, a reporter was fishing for a story and pressed a police officer to say there could have been no drones, he got his sound bite and ran with the story.

    The are now saying there was a drone(s) over the airport…

    “The suggestion there may not have been any drones at Gatwick Airport was a “miscommunication by police”, a government source has told the BBC.”

    ”During a conference call between ministers, chaired by Transport Secretary Chris Grayling, it was agreed the 67 drone sightings were legitimate.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46670714

    Also, there is footage of a possible quad copter drone over the airport…

    https://news.sky.com/video/gatwick-drone-caught-on-camera-in-unverified-footage-11587927

    10
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    Mute Dave O'Keeffe
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:25 PM

    Stupid media and especially Piers Morgan publishing and promoting images of the couple brought in for questioning should be sued out of existence.

    41
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    Mute Aine O Connor
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    Dec 24th 2018, 2:33 PM

    @Dave O’Keeffe:
    He is apologizing like

    1
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    Mute Aine O Connor
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    Dec 24th 2018, 2:33 PM

    @Aine O Connor:
    Already

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    Mute Dave O'Keeffe
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    Dec 24th 2018, 7:00 PM

    @Aine O Connor: by retweeying the picture. He didn’t delete it immediately he retweeted it instead

    2
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    Mute Padraic McDonagh
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:58 PM

    Breejits

    7
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    Mute Michael Lynch
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:41 PM

    This effort just keeps getting funnier. The gift that keeps on giving. UFO sightings over Gatwick a more believable story.

    6
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    Mute Bilbo Baggins
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    Dec 24th 2018, 2:08 PM

    Crawley’s are Gona have some case against the papers for being Grade A Pr!cks and rightly so.

    7
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    Mute Eire
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:29 PM

    It’s all a bit like Brexit really The UK is in a mess “total cock up of a police investigation “

    9
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    Mute Batster
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:30 PM

    GREAT Britain …

    3
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    Mute Patricia Mcnamara
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    Dec 24th 2018, 3:53 PM

    @Batster: G B. Grotty brexit

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    Mute David Jacobsen
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:15 PM

    It was a UFO

    3
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    Mute Ross Fehily
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    Dec 24th 2018, 5:29 PM

    Russians did it, or can they play that again

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    Mute Sportmad
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    Dec 24th 2018, 12:54 PM

    No way seeing no footage..

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    Mute David Jordan
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:08 PM

    @Sportmad: Here is footage of a possible quad copter-drone over the airport…

    https://news.sky.com/video/gatwick-drone-caught-on-camera-in-unverified-footage-11587927

    The latest news is that a reporter pressed a police officer to say there might have been no drones over the airport, the reporter got his soundbite and that sells papers. T he police have just clarified that there were 67 verified sighting of one or more drones over the airport.

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    Mute Matthew Gorman
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:21 PM

    @David Jordan: are you aware sky is a murdoch thing.

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    Mute Paul Freeman
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    Dec 24th 2018, 1:50 PM

    Arseholes.

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    Mute Austin Rock
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    Dec 24th 2018, 4:45 PM

    A bit of a mess all round

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    Mute Claire Cahill
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    Dec 24th 2018, 3:12 PM

    An Post have a drone hiding in the G.P.O. Made me wonder…

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    Mute sandra clifford
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    Dec 25th 2018, 2:23 AM

    UFOs lol

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