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SIPTU, UNITE AND the Women’s Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU) have today called for immediate action from government to legislate for the X Case.
Officials from the three groups presented a statement to Taoiseach Enda Kenny earlier this morning which called for legislation to be enacted that would not contain any restrictions that would make abortion “unavailable in practice”.
The move comes following reports last weekend that the Protection of Maternal Life bill would mean that women with suicidal ideation who wished to have an abortion would have to face six medical professionals.
In a joint statement, the unions said that any such restriction would be “callous, unacceptable and fly in the face of the X Case ruling of the Supreme Court and the ABC ruling of the European Court of Human Rights.”
The regional equalities organiser with UNITE, Taryn Trainor, explained today’s move, saying that Ireland’s trade union movement had “a proud record of campaigning for equality and human rights.”
“UNITE is calling on the Government to bring forward X-case legislation immediately, and to ensure that a woman can easily access her rights under the legislation,” she said, adding:
Women account for around 50 per cent of UNITE’s membership in the Republic of Ireland. As a trade union, we cannot accept a situation where the lives of our members continue to be put at risk because of a failure to legislate for the X case judgement.
Ethel Buckley of SUPTU said that the 20-year wait for legislation in this area was adding to the suffering of victims, while the chair of the ICTU Women’s Committee, Máire Mulcahy, said that it was “absolutely repugnant that the State exposes a woman’s life to danger by the absence of such legislation.”
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Anybody else remember reilly stating last year that this would be sorted by easter?
It does not suit the FG agenda to legislate…..too many hard core voters to loose.
Ryan
Your language is too “loose” on this subject.
The delay is only down to F.G. trying to keep everyone happy. They are afraid to alienate some in society. We and they know who they are. Its sickening. They had now problem rushing through legislation on the promissory note! Do it and do it know. Or you will lose more votes come next election than you expected!
The Unions have female members so of course it’s in their interest
Wynner
I thought Trade Unions dealt with issues of employment rather than their members wombs.
Abortion is a woman’s issue, women are part of unions and have been for Years, I’d imaging they are thinking about the long term view of women being treated equally to their male conterparts in every respect
Yes, because having children has NOTHING to do with your work life. At all.
Don’t look over there, look over here. You don’t want to talk about how we represent the interests of workers. You want to talk about abortion. This way! Oi!
The unions really should just stick with undermining our economic recovery, collecting dues and dispersing them among their own leadership and leave social policy alone.
The delay is ”absolutely repugnant”
What about instead; the termination & disposal, of a tiny HUMAN life, – being ‘absolutely repugnant’
Their values are totally screwed up.
Until a foetus is viable outside the womb, ie survive outside the womb on its own, it can not be considered ‘life’.
Anything to the contrary is just wrong. Simple.
what is it then, – if not human life?
Surely it has human cells, organs, its own unique and individual DNA,
the capacity for growth & potential, – like any other human life.
It’s a foetus. It cannot, and I repeat CANNOT survive outside the womb on its own until a certain number of weeks:
No one is asking to have abortion at any stage during the pregnancy, we’re asking the Government to grow a set and legislate for abortion in certain circumstances.
You lot paint it as the Pro-Choice lobby are monsters and want to rip and fully functioning baby out of the womb whenever. You lot are also insulting women by suggesting that legislating for abortion will lead to thousands of women getting abortions on a whim!
Do you really have that much respect for Women ?
If denying its humanity, makes its easier to terminate that life, than thats ok.
But nothing can change the fact,- that it is a human life.
And that has to be taken into consideration, in the making & formation of our laws.
Zoe are u a believer in democracy? The people have spoken TWICE on this issue in referenda. What do u suggest? Shall we tear up the constitution and disband the Supreme Court. What shall replace them in ur opinion???
DublinLad , it cannot survive outside the womb , thats why we must protect it and make sure it doesn’t have to , we must protect it from the anti life people ,
it is a life with its own rights which it cannot express , so it depends on others to defend its rights and I am more than happy to do so here even if it means debating with machines which have been assimilated into collective thinking .
Dublinlad is right.
It is absurd apply human rights to something which is incapable of either cognitive thought or independent existence outside of the womb.
If an embryo is entitled to rights equal to those of the woman carrying it, why then do we not apply those rights to all the fertilised ovums which women’s menstrual cycles expel before implantation?
Thank god you’re here to protect the things growing in other peoples wombs! I’m sure the hundreds of women who travel every year are pleased that you’ve taken such an interest in something that very blatantly doesn’t concern you. I’m sure you have great intentions of helping these babies once they are born. or is it just unviable foetuses you are concerned with?
a life is a life , you cannot take it away from someone outside the womb , why should it be any different inside
Once again freebies, it is not universally accepted that an embryo is entitled to the right to life.
Because its my womb. And i will grow babies in it when I’m damn ready and not a minute before. we are lucky we live in proximity to the UK otherwise the amount of pregnant women committing suicide would be much higher because they wouldn’t have access to abortion services at all.
International Convention on Civil and Political Rights.
ICCPR Article 6(1) every human being has the inherent right to life
ICCPR not only protects human beings during the pre-natal period of life under paragraph 5 it protects them as holders of human rights.
Article 6(5) implicitly recognised that the right holder is the new Human…
Yes Briget, but it is not accepted that an embryo is a person. That’s the issue here.
DublinLad
A foetus is not viable outside the womb after nine months of it is abandoned by its parents. So be careful in the language you use!
Biologically Viable Quentin. everyone else managed to grasp that without the meaning being explicitly spoon fed to them, if you are going to try and take part in the debate please try keep up.
Quentin,
You really are an insufferable tit.
‘The Womb’ belongs to a woman who is a person not an incubator. Foetuses do not exist in space, they are dependent on the woman they are inside, she is already a person not a potential person her rights should always come first. If my life was in danger due to pregnancy my husband and my parents would choose that I live not the foetus and rightly so.
As a woman, I find it highly insulting, that some sections of this debate seem to assume, that if this legislation is passed, women will be rushing to the hospitals and clinics.
Thankfully, I have never found myself in the situation where I felt that this was my only option.
I find it very offensive that certain people seem to think that if abortion becomes available, women will just see it as an ‘easy’ way out of a crisis pregnancy.
Any woman who finds herself in this situation, does not take the decision lightly, it is a life changing event, and to have it denigrated to the same status as somebody choosing which variety of ketchup to use, is downright wrong.
If women had proper access to full , non-judgmental options, will proper counselling and information, some of them may decide to keep the baby, once the sheer panic of the situation can be abated.
How many Articles in the last few hours calling for Abortion is that now ?
honestly … you Libertarians crack me up , the amazing thing is people actually pay you to post the same rubbish over and over on all the usual websites.
If anything it appears to be you with the agenda.
Do us all a favour then and leave.
Freebies don’t read it and comment on it then. Hopefully they legislate soon and eventually it leads to abortion on demand. It’s a woman’s choice. No one else’s.
Then don’t read them.
Freebies I’ve noticed you seem to be the one posting alot of rubish lately. Get over yourself and stop with the crap your saying
Oh the irony of the right wing American funded anti choice brigade accusing others of getting paid. You people are incredibly arrogant. You do your cause far more harm than any pro choicer ever could.
DublinCity. The “its my body i will do what i like” argument. What about the body of the baby she is carrying? Oh ya. Hoover it out and throw it in the incinerator. Problem solved.
I agree Freebies.
The ‘pro choice’ lobby & the Labour party etc, are already thinking beyond the X case legislation.
That is already old news. Nothing will be enough, until abortion on demand.
Fine Gael may only realise this too late.
@Deirdre it’s a fetus and it is up to that individual carrying it what to do. Not you or anyone else.
“Do *us* all a favour” …… is that some sort of admission of organised trolls
It has arms and legs like u and me. Tell me would u work in an abortion “clinic”. Would u like to be that highly paid person that looks into the tube to check that the entire baby has been sucked out?
“The ‘pro choice’ lobby & the Labour party etc, are already thinking beyond the X case legislation”
Zoe says that as if there was something sinister about it. The X case is an important start, but that’s all it is: a start.
We need to continue on until women are granted full reproductive rights.
Ah sure Deirdre let a tiny clump of cells have more rights then the women and why are you being so graphic with your posts? Sounds a bit like desperation. Legislation is finally coming and it’s about time.
Well said John.
Good post John! This legislation will provide the most basic and limited form of termination possible. It will have a million strings attached and in reality probably won’t be worth the paper it’s printed on, for either ill women or their doctors.
It won’t take into account fatal foetal abnormality which to me should be a matter or common sense not morality, never mind the right to a woman to have complete autonomy over her body and life.
I am simply telling u what happens in these clinics…. If u believe its a tiny clump of cells u really dont know your biology..
The irony of Deirde accusing anyone of not knowing biology.
You know who knows more about biology than you Deirdre? The doctors at the Royal College of Obstetrics and Gynaecology; the same doctors who in a report published in 2010 conclusively determined that an embryo is not a baby.
But of course you may just dismiss the opinions of these trained medical professionals as “pro-abort propaganda”.
pot kettle black
Just so you know Deirdre its the doctors check that the termination is complete not anyone else working in the clinics. Also the method of choice now is to give a tablet and have you pass the foetus at home then you come back for a scan its very rare they use suction these days.
Freebies.
The Irish people voted to uphold the X Case judgement in full in 1992.
In 2002 we were asked to remove the suicide clause – you know, in case we got it wrong in 1992, but we rejected the motion and kept the X Case judgement in its entirety.
The only people with an agenda are the ones who wish to subvert democracy and ignore the democratic will of the Irish people..
John Everyman. And the irony of a man like u orating to women about their wombs. What would u know about it????
What do u know about being pregnant? What do u know about carrying a child? What do u know what its like when a mother-to-be sees a scan of her 7wk old blob of cells. I will tell u what she sees. She sees her baby. His heart beating.
The cheek of u, u insensitive unfeeling moron. Go back to your cave
like the doctors who ensured that for me after both my miscarriages?
Chris
If that was for me then the answer would be yes they should have. I’m sorry that its the same procedure and that’s why I used the correct medical term. I hope I didn’t offend or upset you that was not my intention.
@ Silver Fern, sorry, if you mis-understood, my comment was actually in reply to Deidre, it just came much further down the page than i expected.
I am sick to death of these people ‘explaining’ to me.
I have lost two children, and know exactly what it involves, both emotionally and medically. I am still pro-choice though.
That doesn’t mean that I condone ‘abortion on demand’ and I imagine that there are very few out there who would advocate it, even if they are on the ‘choice’ side of the debate
I don’t think any of us do condone termination on demand a fact sadly lost on the pro life brigade.
Deirdre, you’re the unfeeling one if you believe that even raped women and girls should be forced to carry the offspring of their rapist to term. You are the unfeeling one if you believe that women who have been told their baby will die at or shortly after birth should be forced to go to term. You are the unfeeling one if you think a woman should be denied cancer treatment in order to protect the foetus (remember MichelleHarte)
Anti-choice people are unnaturally obsessed with foetuses and think women are nothing but vessels and aren’t terribly concerned about born children ( or they would be adopting orphans) they are the ones who are lacking in compassion for the sometimes awful positions women find themselves in.
Kelly. Thats where u are wrong. A womans life or her health should never be put at risk because she is pregnant. Her health must be priority at all times. Its called pro life. Pro life of mother too.
Unions to the rescue once again ?
In what can only be one the stranger twists of fate. It appears the unions have turned their attention from solving the thorny issue of legislation for abortion in Ireland.
This allows them to stay well away what has transpired to be an even thornier issue, public sector pay and conditions.
I will add irish trade unionism to that ever increasing list of old staples that are rapidly loosing their relevance in modern Ireland.
so a woman can have an abortion by saying she is suicidal if this is approved? Or am I wrong?
You’re wrong.
She can say she is suicidal but she has to be suicidal too.
How is that proved? That she is suicidal?
Are you a psychiatrist Macca?
why would I be a psychiatrist? Lol
If you were I’m sure you’d know exactly how to assess someone for suicide. How’s about letting them get on about their own job, you stick to yours, and we’ll all be happy, and there’ll be more women for the foreigners to steal as a result.
Deal?
Lol! so r you saying women shouldn’t have to be assessed?
No, I’m saying that you don’t have to worry about it. You’re not a psychiatrist, therefore how they are assessed is none of your business.
I never once worried about it lol! I’m just discussing like many others! it’s obvious women have to be proven to be suicidal
Not necessarily. In many countries that we aspire to be like, the only proof that is needed is for the Ma to say “I’m suicidal”. But here we have to go the extent of making her feel like she’s a criminal. The only thing this would do if brought in is show that Ireland and mental health aren’t the greatest of buddies, and pregnant mothers should get pregnant elsewhere.
I can’t be certain, given that I haven’t seen the draft legislation, but I assume a woman in this situation would be found to be suicidal in the same way anyone else is found to be suicidal.
I am not a psychiatrist so I can’t give you exact details of how this is done.
Personally, I trust a medical expert in this field to make that judgement.
I wouldn’t agree with that in a month of Sundays! A woman to walk in off the street and say “I’m suicidal” so that guarantees an abortion imminently? If that’s the case any woman could do it to get an abortion!
Ah sure miss Terry, didn’t ye know Macca is the journals resident Sigmund Freud.
You are being a pedant Macca. Quite simply she will be assessed by a medical professional trained to assess these women.
Lol the point in makin is simple! Be examined and proven to be suicidall then get your abortion! That’s what should come in
Yes Macca, heaven forbid, but there are countries where “freely available” abortion means just that. All that is required is for any other mother to walk in and say “I want an abortion”, and hey presto, bazinga, quick assessment for physical and mental fitness – the same as for any other procedure in the book, and voila – there’s your abortion. Stigma free and all, just like that!
Exactly, an assessment is done! What I have been saying all along! Lets face it they could bring in abortion in certain areas but women will never be happy unless its in on demand in all scenarios
An assessment is done with every single procedure carried out for the simple reason that a doctor can’t carry out a procedure if the patient is found to be making their decision under duress and inline with the IMC guidelines. They carry out the physical assessment to make sure that they’ll make a decent recovery post surgery.
So let me ask and this is to everyone! Do u ever think abortion on demand in all scenarios will ever be legalised fully in Ireland?
I think you’ll find many women who would be very unhappy with abortion in all scenarios.
Can’t say I’d agree with any of them but the numbers of women at anti abortion protests a few months back would seem to rubbish your assertion Macca.
I’m saying women who want abortion legalised in this country, the majority of them want it on demand and not just in certain circumstances
Yes, it will be. The same way there’ll be marriage equality and such things that we dare not speak of. The ECHR will have it’s day. Fear not.
I’d be very unsure will it come in on demand in Ireland! I have spoken to loads on this issue and its amazing how many don’t agree with abortion on demand but do agree in serious conditions
All that abortion on demand needs in this country is for some very brave women to make a case of discrimination against mothers who can travel and who’s lives are not at risk. Abortion is a medical/surgical procedure in every book everywhere. It is recognised as such. Therefore it should absolutely be available, in the same way that you can get plastic surgery or breast implants, it is much safer to be done openly and and under the authority of the IMC than it is to send a woman to an abortion clinic in another country that may not be recognised, or even practicing to highest and best of standards, which is what any patient of any service deserves in the least respect.
So let me get this right , you think a young girl who gets pregnant through carelessness with her bf, who has a supportive family behind her should be allowed an abortion as easy as that and kill the child because she was careless?
It will, I think, and it will happen sooner than you think. The past few decades the world has bit by bit become more liberal and more in touch with human rights. It once would have seemed insane to think homosexual couples would be equal with straight couples but that will, thankfully, be here soon. It was once considered normal to think of white people as being superior to black people, now only the truly deranged believe that.
Once abortion is in this country this year people who have worries about it, but aren’t bible bashers, will see that it’s not the end of the world and that you can trust women to make the right decision. These floodgates everyone fears won’t open, life will carry on as normal and eventually full choice rights will be allowed. Women aren’t fully equal with men until it happens, that’s why it will change.
Again Macca, I can’t see where you’re pulling these assertions from.
I agree that support for abortion in certain circumstances has increased greatly (life of the mother in danger and to a slightly lesser extent, health of the mother in danger, rape and incest cases).
But even in the IT poll in February, which was slated in certain areas for asking ‘leading questions’ in favour of legislating for abortion, the majority-63%- were against abortion on demand.
Given how high the figures were in favour of abortion being allowed in the case of the woman being suicidal, and factoring out 50% as a rough figure for the male respondents, it doesn’t follow that all women who were for this were also for abortion on demand.
Ah Macca, you’ve gone and contradicted yourself before I’d even finished tapping out my response.
Contradicted where? I’ll stick by what I said abortion should come in under condition but this will not be enough for most women! Lots want it on demand
Macca, your assertion there wasn’t overly nice on teenage girls – it takes 2 to tango. Unless its the immaculate conception.
A scenario: assume a girl and a woman get pregnant, accidentally. The woman flits to the UK, has abortion and returns. The girl is from a less well off society, therefore can’t just go to the UK. It’s a very unequal society when the woman who might be able to afford keeping pregnancy can go to the UK, yet the girl who can’t afford to go to the UK or have the baby is the one landed with the pregnancy and as a result ends up leaving school, thus reducing her ability to get anywhere or anything out of her life.
Mistakes happen. It takes 2 to knock someone up the duff, the first who has never made a mistake may cast the first stone etc etc etc
“I have spoken to loads on this issue and its amazing how many don’t agree with abortion on demand but do agree in serious conditions”
Now unless everyone you’ve been talking too is male, by your own admission there are ‘loads’, including women, who do not want abortion in demand but do want it in limited cases.
If everyone you have been talking to is male, then all your assertions regarding the views if women seem to have come from your arse.
Mistake? I call it carelessness! it’s very easy to stop a pregnancy
Don’t you mean THEY were careless Macca? She might have the procedure but he helped don’t you think?
@Macca,
If any woman gets pregnant through carelessness/mistake/rape/incest then who are we to judge what she wants to do. Are you willing to point fingers are people that ‘deserve’ access to health care?
People make mistakes, forgivenness is a great thing, but minding your own business and not judging someone is better.
What ur point here macca. It isn’t a case of want or demand. It a case of the health/ life of the woman over the pregnancy. Any other scenario would require a referendum. So lets quit stirring and implement that prev 2 referenda. It called democracy.
Miss terry I mainly go by women’s views on the topic of abortion on the journal which has been covered endlessly over the past year! I have seen the majority say “it’s about time abortiob was legalised on demand in this country”
@Macca
If ‘lots’ want it ‘on demand’ i.e. dont have to partake in a theatre performance in order to access it, then by your own common sense, is that not telling you that the current situation here is not working and access should be granted?
I regard the life of a child who was formed through carelessness by their mother and father! serious medical conditions are totally different! You legalise abortion on demand here, whether u admit it or not will lower the usage of protection with younger males and females!
So Macca, you’ve never made a mistake in your life? Lets all now to your unmistaken life. All hail Macca.
Call it a mistake, call it carelessness, call it a didgery doo, whatever it is or was, the girl should not be paying back her entire life for one half moment of insanity. I say half moment because that’s how it works Macca… It wasn’t just her…
I’m having sex since I was 16. I’m now 27. I haven’t had an “accident” because I take care and any girl I’m with takes care! As I said its easy prevent a pregnancy and any young girl who is not on a contraceptive or doesn’t make her bf use a condom should not have the right to abort an innocent child!
What about girls and felkas who make more then one “mistake”! U pity them 2?
So how exactly will this work, if I get pregnant and become suicidal 7/8 months in can I have an abortion and “get rid” of an almost fully developed baby, If they are going to put a time frame and I can’t have a late abortion, at what point does my suicidal intention become less of a risk to my life? Are we actually going to allow almost full term abortions if not at what point am I not allowed to become suicidal! Also if I say I am suicidal and I’m assessed as not being suicidal and denied an abortion, commit suicide a week later won’t there be hell to pay for that psychiatrist to denied an abortion? That’s putting psychiatrists in a very difficult position and it will despite assertions to the contrary lead to abortion on demand as no one is going to deny that I’m suicidal for that reason! So we’ll have abortion on demand with no time frame, that’s wonderful that it is! A real step forward for human rights!! Go us!!
Fair enough Macca.
Again, I don’t think the commenters on the journal are representative of the majority of women. There are too few, many of the same people comment on all articles on this topic, the journal has a limited readership demographic etc.
I’d refer you again to the IT poll (and other similar polls) where respondents are taken from all age groups, across the whole country and questioned by independent pollsters.
Well isn’t that wonderful Macca. You’re responsible. Good for you. I’m having sex since I was 16 and I’ve never had to deal with that issue, because as you say I’ve been responsible, any partner I’ve been with has been responsible.
You’re ignoring a few factors Macca:
Sexual health education is non existent – and where it is existent, it’s not of the standard it should be.
Contraception isn’t 100% effective 100% of the time. (Even when it is used as intended – the closest to perfection is a condom – 99.5% effective when used as intended. Take into account human error and the best a condom will ever do is 90% – that’s for everyone – including you and me Macca.
It’s very easy to be high and mighty when you’re on the right side of high and mighty. It could very well be you or your partner in this instance Macca, it could be your sister, mother, aunt, daughter, cousin… 4,500 women a year have abortions! If you know more than 500 women the chances are at least one of them has had an abortion. Macca – meet reality.
Starry Eyed – your comment is utter boloney – there is nobody advocating abortion upto birth – you should give up the pro life craic. It’ll do you no good now.
I still don’t agree with abortion on demand! It’s far to much of a delicate issue! I don’t know one girl who has had an abortion
Have you asked? I know of 2 in my family – and I know neither was exactly published on national radio…
WanderArch, what part is baloney? It’s a very genuine question! At what point of the pregnancy am I not allowed to become suicidal? If I become suicidal at 7/8 months, how am I any less suicidal at that point than if I was to become suicidal at 7/8 weeks? suicide poses the same serious risk to my life no matter what point the pregnancy so at what point is this gov going to say well its ok to be suicidal at this point but its not ok to become suicidal after such point? If that question is baloney maybe u can explain to me when u think its too late for me to become suicidal?
Well in the first instance, the foetus is deliverable at 7/8 months, so that would be the preferred option – just guessing like! Scaremongering at its finest. Don’t ever change.
Ok so lets say 5/6 months? U didnt answer my question, at what point is it not ok for me to become suicidal? And u say child is deliverable at that point, what happens then? I have the baby and then commit suicide? Or I recover and am left with a baby that caused me to become suicidal in the first place!, what should I do? Give my baby up for adoption….. But i thought that that is meant to be utterly distressing so an already distressed me will have to have extra stress causing me to become even more suicidal! Plz honestly tell me at what point am I not allowed to become suicidal and if I become suicidal after that point what should I do? Again a very genuine concern from a young woman who has suffered depression in the past!
stupid questions pro lifers ask :
What if she wants an abortion the week before her due date/at 8 months etc?
what if your mother aborted you?? (My personal favorite)
whats to stop people using it as a form of contraception?
why should a baby (read unviable foetus) pay for the mothers mistake?
Wat sort of mother wouldnt out her life on the line to protect her baby (unviable foetus) why would she want to life at the expense of her baby? (ACTUAL QUESTION on YD page! )
Yikes!
What pro choicers say when they can’t answer a genuine question-
Your must be one of those youth defence nutters so I’m not going to answer your question!
My questions are genuine concerns, what point is it not ok for me to become suicidal and ps I’m not not have I ever had any connection with youth defence, nor was I aware they had a website not have I ever looked at said website!
If abortion is a genuine treatment for suicidal ideation these are serious questions that need clarification!
you just asked if someone thinks its OK for someone to have an abortion at 8 months. If you want to be taken seriously don’t ask such stupid questions.
I agree with the point what if doc deems them not suicidal and then they go off and commit suicide!there will be war! It’s a very delicate issue
They wont answer SES because they’re hypocrites, simple as. They dont like that sort of question because it contradicts their mantra of full abortion rights.
Legislation for X will happen (and rightly so) but their messed up dream of abortion on demand will never happen in Ireland and they know it.
Joy I’m pretty sure that’s not what I asked because I’m pretty sure no one on this earth thinks its ok to have such a late term abortion, my question was at what point does my suicidal threat become any less of a risk of my life? At what point are the gov going to say its no longer ok to become suicidal? This is a very genuine question! If we are seriously going to include suicide as a reason for abortion then is there going to be a cut off point and at what point will that be or should that be? And after that point what do U recommend a suicidal mother should do?
you dont ‘abort’ a 8 month old viable foetus. you deliver it. It really is simple.
Again u didnt answer my question, at what point is it too late to become suicidal/ at what point does suicide become any less of a risk to ones life? At what point should this gov have as a cut-off point? When someone answers this question then maybe we can move on and have a real debate on abortion to treat suicide! Come back to me when ur ready to answer these questions!!
well yes , it would be a step forward for human rights . you are correct
I have no interest in debating abortion as a treatment for suicide, i don’t think there should be any qualifiers or provisos on a woman’s right to access safe and legal abortion within the first trimester and after the first trimester in special cases of maternal risk and foetal incompatibility with life. I think the debate should be why we don’t have abortion on demand.
Starry eyed,
Firstly, if you really want to engage in a fruitful debate on this issue, please stop using emotive language that misconstrues the issues.
Obviously, there is no point at which ‘it is too late to become suicidal’. For anyone. If someone becomes suicidal, no law could or would ever tell them they aren’t or ‘are too late’. So please stop using this phrase-it does nothing to further the discussion.
The issue that arises is one of balance, as it always is in this debate. Once a foetus becomes viable, delivery is the obvious solution to the issue.
Before that, I would expect that some legal cut off point will be made-normally between 12 and 24 weeks. This often comes down to the ‘person’ debate-that is, at what stage the foetus becomes a person. It is determined-as far as possible- with reference to medical evidence.
At this stage, the lives of two people are balanced. If an abortion were to be carried out, it would be the certain death of a person against the risk of death of another. That is why there is a cut off.
It is not that it is ‘too late’ to become suicidal. It is just that the law balances the risk to the life of one person against the certain loss of life of the other.
Isn’t a baby practically fully formed (albeit still very small) by the end of the first trimester? I don’t even want to think about a “foetus” being carved up a scraped out with a functioning nervous system. It’s just barbaric!
U are not interested in debating it because u can’t answer my questions so well done on confirming what I already knew!! Anyone else out there want to answer the question or do ye all want to pretend that yer logic is perfect and that this is just a simple decision for the gov! It is not because we are talking about potential life and who or when we have the right to take away such a life! Yes abortion should be allowed when there is a serious threat to the life of the mother but including suicide is just not an option due to the difficulties in defining how great the risk is or when it is no longer a risk which can be clearly seen by your inability to answer my question!!
Its not a baby yet, the Foetus is smaller than your thumb and completely unviable outside the womb at the end of the first trimester.
I bet you do know women who have had terminations Macca you just haven’t been told. Because of the stigma still involved its not a subject that women who have had them discuss in case their judged by paragons of virtue who never make mistakes or have accidents.
thats where you are wrong. it is an option, and it will be a very real option when the legislation comes in. the next logical step is abortion on demand. And your question was already answered, if the Foetus is unviable you abort, if its viable you deliver. its really not as complicated as your making it out to be.
Miss terry I’m sorry for using “emotive language” but how can I not use such language when that is the core of the topic which we are debating! If u want me to come up with some fluffy language just to make those in favour of allowing abortion to treat suicide feel better then I can try but the subject topic remains the same and the questions are still the same, at what point is abortion no longer acceptable as a treatment for suicide! If its acceptable at 6 weeks at what point does it become no longer acceptable and how at that point can we say “oh sorry your not worthy of an abortion its too late so just get better or go ahead and commit suicide”! The reality is abortion is not a treatment for suicide and if it truly is then how can we allow it to one and deny it to another when the same risk exists!
I answered your question but I notice you haven’t responded to me.
Just look at any picture at 12 weeks of development and tell me that it isn’t a baby. I just can’t believe the heartlessness of some people on this site.
WONT SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!
It’s not heartless a baby is able to survive outside the womb a foetus is not.
A baby can’t survive outside the womb either if you’re going to be pedantic. It has a functioning brain by the end of 12 weeks so that’s why I’m against it on demand. Once it’s not the product of rape or is going to suffer a life of pain due to a abnormality I believe it has a right to life and you’ll never shake that viewpoint.
The reason that abortion can be allowed up to one point and not after that, is as I explained above.
The nature of the foetus has changed. At some point the bunch of cells become a person-which is often deemed to be when sentience is achieved.
The law then has to balance the lives of two people, not the life of one person against that of non-sentient foetus.
It becomes the risk of the life of one person against the certain death if another. Whereas prior to that point, it was the risk of the life of one person against that which is not a person. In the latter case, the risk wins out because only one person exists but not in the former. The balance has shifted.
Also, with regards to the emotive language, I hope you agree this is a nuanced issue.
To say that it is a case of ‘ you’re too late to be suicidal’ is to misconstrue the issue. You are using a hammer where a needle is required.
So you in fact would believe in murder under certain circumstances by that logic… Do you think foetus’s conceived out of rape are different to those conceived out of love??
This has to be black or white yes or no, opt in or opt out clauses should be gotten rid of its the woman’s body only she can make and live with her decision not you or I but she should have that right to choose.
Mr Jingles, the foetus doesn’t have a fully formed brain at 12 weeks, the brain is not fully developed until near the point of viability outside the womb – please see the following.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1440624/
Starry, if you would care to read the expert report that was commissioned last year after the ECHR ruling in ABC, once the foetus becomes viable it will be delivered and brought to a neonatal ICU.
The suicide clause cannot be removed because it would require a third referendum on that particular issue, the people voted to uphold the X case in full in 1992, suicide risk and all, we were asked to remove the suicide clause again in 2002 and rejected the motion. So the government is obliged to include it in the legislation.
If it was just black and white I would opt out for the greater good but life isn’t as simple as that and if you’re going to go down them lines ill take it you’re in favour of abortion at any stage of pregnancy. Maybe you can take up where that evil bastard in America left off?
1. Read the link
2. Play the ball not the player.
I am pro choice yes, I have enough knowledge to know that if a pregnancy is at a stage it is safer to induce labour that is what they do and up until then they terminate either medically or surgically.
I did look at a picture, somebody very kindly shoved it in my face, the day I left hospital, after having a miscarriage at 9 weeks, I foetus, which by the way, the doctor instructed the nurse to throw into the bin.
Shanti there are many doctors that will argue that a foetus can feel pain as early as 16 weeks. Just because you produce a link to a paper does not mean you’re right (and ill say the same about the opposite views).
Silver Fern isn’t the death rate for abortion something like 15 times less than labour? So by your logic you can only be in favour of abortion at any stage. After all, it is safer.
Chris I’m sorry to hear that but what has that got to do with the topic?
That’s very unusual Chris as most products go for histology both here and the UK. I’m sorry you had such a sad experience.
I’m not going to argue with you Mr Jingles, you have your beliefs I have mine and never the twain shall meet!!
@silver fern, the nurse did actually question the doctor, but he insisted, that as it was ‘only’ the second miscarriage, and not the third, there was no need for the histology investigations.
Mister Jingles , you previously posted ‘Just look at any picture at 12 weeks of development and tell me that it isn’t a baby. I just can’t believe the heartlessness of some people on this site.’
I was merely pointing out , that in a traumatised state, I had had these pictures shoved in my face.
Something we can agree on
Chris I am truly sorry that you had that experience I know how sad and emotional miscarriages can be without having to hear that.
Again sorry to hear that but I just don’t see what relevance it has to do with what we are taking about.
well , then maybe you are also missing a lot of other relevant points Mr Jingles
It’s in answer to a post further up Mr Jingles and because other people have replied to other comments it gets put in at next available slot.
Mister Jingles.
You said earlier that the foetus had a fully functioning brain at 12 weeks.
I posted a link to a respected source which proved this to be untrue.
Your response is to say that “many doctors” (no source provided) will argue that it’s as early as 16 weeks, so which is it? 12 weeks or 16?
And if you could cite your sources to back up your claims that would be great, thanks :)
Respect Shanti
I find it difficult to debate with people who miss the point and make sweeping statements.
Just because the foetus can feel pain does not mean a foetus can survive outside the uterus.
People really need to let the experts do their jobs, and just mind their own business! Doctors aren’t butchers. They’re qualified and professionally registered. They know what they’re doing. They don’t need back seat doctors telling them how to do their job – the very job they spend 8-10 years training for! Just let them get on with it and be done with it!
What business is it of yours? Are you thinking of tendering for the work, macca?
Gee, and as we all know EVERY woman wants an abortion, right macca?
And we can’t have women getting what they want now, can we macca? That would be out of order, wouldn’t it?
Bang out of order Sheik keep the women suppressed barefoot pregnant and tied to the kitchen sink lest they get notions (joke)
And the rest Wander Arch I have yet to meet a doctor who only trained for 8-10 years its continuos is it not?
You are correct let them do their job with the other health care professionals perhaps we would have the termination issue settled quicker if we left it to them to decide without worrying about legalities.
Oh yes Silver, 8-10 years minimum! Agree with all you say! :-)
Absolutely, we would be happy then, abortion on request is the ideal scenario instead of having our lives and bodies controlled by those who think that their views and morals should be imposed on all.
Unions jumping to get some good coverage! They’ve helped to ruin our public sector.
These are the same unions whos leaders dont even have the support of their members , now the question we need to ask ourselves is how many of their members agree with their official line this time , The Trade Union Leaders have all been bought and sold , they are only in it for themselves and dont care about their members.
One union voted against its leadership. One. Singular.
But the biggest one as it turns out!
Legislating for the X Case is a legal human rights imperative. It has to be done. There is no option. It’s time for the Anti-Choice Group to respect Ireland’s legal obligations.
It’s time for the Government to comply with its legal obligations.
Savita’s tragic death, caused by bad law, also has to be addressed.
Yes, there will be hard line fundamentalists, primarily Roman Catholics, who will oppose civil law reform but these right wing irredentists eventually accepted artificial contraception, divorce, legalisation of male homosexual acts, equality laws and eventually they will come to terms with the necessary changes in the law.
A brave Government, with a large majority, would disregard the opposition of these ultra conservatives.
We will move forward.
If one looks coldly over the comments of the anti-choice lobby, their lack of logic, lack of rationality, lack of regard for facts and their eccentric notions are obvious. I once tried logic and argument but a fundamentalist is not receptive to sense. Their arguments become more and more extreme, irrelevance, curious and fanciful notions such how would I feel if my mother had aborted me and so on are introduced.
The point is that ” pro life” position is considered absolutely right by the pro-life lobby. It tends to be monolithis in nature.
For those who wish to see some freedom of choice, the range of opinion varies from available abortion in very restrictive and exceptional circumstances to those who favour a more liberal regime. Each person tries to work out their own views and supporting reasoning. They see the matter as often grey but the absolutist “pro-life” lobby sees the matter as black and white.
With reasonable people, one can and should reason. With those who argue from an a priori notion based on religious dogma, reasoning is sadly futile.
Since when is SIPTU running the country?
SIPTU are acting as an unelected Government.
Can we have full disclosure of salaries and perks of all SIPTU executives?
It’s time for reality!!
Because they represent woman as members of their union
Dermot, they’d be doing a better job than the government – who as a whole (FG and FF) have refused to legislate for the will of the people as expressed in not one but TWO referenda. Or are we just going to ignore democracy now because it doesn’t suit you?
have your say