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TRANS PEOPLE AND human rights allies are being called on to take part in a campaign to urge the government to speed up bringing in gender recognition legislation.
The call comes from TENI following a further delay in the progress of Gender Recognition legislation. In the latest government legislation programme, the expected publication date for Ireland’s Bill for Gender Recognition has been moved back to 2014. The heads of bill have not yet been approved by Government.
“We are surprised – and deeply disappointed – at the further delay,” said Dr Orlaith O’Sullivan, TENI campaigns and advocacy manager.
This is a matter of basic human rights for people in Ireland. Our country remains in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights, and the international community is keenly aware of the State’s inaction.
In December 2012, the Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights Nils Muizneiks wrote to Minister for Social Protection Joan Burton TD to “strongly encourage” her to proceed with legislation.
In 2008, the UN Human Rights Committee said that the State should “recognise the right of transgender persons to a change of gender by permitting the issuance of new birth certificates”, said TENI.
Recognition
TENI Chair Sara Phillips said:
while Government neglects their obligation to legislate, people continue to be marginalised and excluded. The suicide attempt rate among our community is 40 per cent. We have waited long enough for our basic human rights.
TENI is urging trans people who were born in Ireland to request a new birth certificate from the Registrar General. TENI is also counting the years that people in Ireland have been waiting for recognition, and publishing them in on their website.
Dr Lydia Foy, for example, first requested her corrected birth certificate in 1993.
Impact
O’Sullivan told TheJournal.ie that transgender people in Ireland have been waiting very patiently thinking there will be due process with regard to the legislation. The delay is causing issues for some, such as people who have missed a place in college because of not having a new birth certificate, people running into issues trying to obtain welfare, and people finding their identity is questioned over and over again.
One man stood in a post office and was asked ‘whose ID have you stolen?’ because his gender identity did not match the gender on his passport, said O’Sullivan. People also face transphobia due to outing themselves.
Everyone under the EU convention has a right to privacy – trans people and intersex people in Ireland have to out themselves and are denied this right because of gender recognition issues, said O’Sullivan.
“We are not asking for a special right,” said O’Sullivan, as Ireland chose to sign up to the human rights convention.
O’Sullivan said she believes “we are in a very hopeful, positive place in Ireland” and are beginning to have the conversation more around gender and gender identity. “People are mobilising to support themselves,” she added.
Details of TENI’s ACT NOW campaign are at: www.teni.ie/act_now
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A whole new document recognising a physical change of sex makes sense. Altering a historical record doesn’t
I agree Chuck- I can understand when members of the transgender community would want an amended birth cert, but it is in effect changing a historical document- yes, they should be provided with some sort of other document that can be used- similiar to the way that adopted people do things, as often times they do not have access to their birth Certs, but the docs they have are sufficient for getting passports , drivers licences etc
Mike don’t get ahead of yourself. You’re actually an egg. One day you’ll be a fully fledged chicken ;)
Mike, You have the right to remain silent.. ;)
Yes Mike… Not only a donkey but you’re an ass as well.
The birth cert is merely a bond for making sure the new baby is bonded/enslaved and makes no difference whether it is male of fe-male.
Ah yes adoptees, now that’s a whole different discussion with natural parents often written out of the child’s life.” In their best interests of course” as Hitler said.
Adoptees for the most part are not allowed to know their birth family and have no access to family medical records etc.
That’s the Irish way to keep secrets.
You’re suggesting a new change in how society does identity, by using “a whole new document”. Please go into detail of your proposal, rather than being flippant. If we rename “Brith Cert” to “Fundamental Identity Document”, that would actually solve all your objections.
How am i being flippant?
I’m not suggesting any change in how society “does” identity. I’m saying that if we introduced a state recognised/produced document that officially recorded a change of physical sex then we wouldn’t need to literally re-write history
How much detail do you need to understand that?
If a transgender can change their name and sex on the original birth cert then i should be allowed to change my name on my original birth cert and not use deed poll and all those who have used deed poll should also be allowed to change their names on their birth cert. If someone changes it once whats to stop them changing it every year?
And if you can alter your original birth document what happens in the case of those on the sex offenders list, can they change their name too, if they do what will happen to their criminal records will they be wiped or amended, even with safeguards to prevent such a thing happening, some will fall through the cracks.
Having an option on deed-poll to change sex as well as ones name might be a better way.
I’ve only had to produce my birth cert about twice in 40yrs, you don’t use it for ID as its not ID .I didn’t need it for my new passport ,just old one and driving license . No employer would ask for it ? So if you want to go flashing it around everywhere ok but that’s manipulating the situation .You should be able to change gender on official ID’s eg passport and driving license and only have to disclose you gender change when it affects others directly .Marriage being the only example that springs to mind .
I’m fully supportive of L, G and B but the T just doesn’t sit right with me. Is that wrong??
In fairness it’s probably the one that the general public knows the least about and therefore we don’t fully understand it. Hopefully some positive comments on here may answer any questions we may have.
Depends on your interpretation of ‘wrong’? Personally I see it as a different issue to L G B rights but similar in that’s its ultimately about equality. Just like I’d stand up for the equal rights black people and women.
Oh Egg I missed you princess. Cum back to bed so I can whip you up in to a scrambled frenzy bbz <3
Looks like Im talking to meself now we’re Eggless :p
You must have ruffled his feathers.
Egg the tool.
Yes.
Yes. That is wrong.
Laughing quite heartedly at some of these comments….but it is a serious matter.
Trans people pay their taxes employ people, come from all walks of life and yet we are treated as second class citizens without legal recognition in our own country. A country which I’m proud to be a citizen off, yet when I go to do something official which needs a birth certificate I’m outed straight away and I have no legal redress if the person I’m dealing with is transphobic. I’m exasperated at this interminable delay.
We are virtually the last country in Europe in this situation and legally under article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights trans people have the right to privacy along with every other Irish citizen… The government have had since 2002 to sort this out…Words cannot describe my total disgust at this delay
Everyone has rights. Human psychology thinks that if it looks like a fish it probably is as fish but when an enigma is introduced most peoples initial response would be fear and when that happens that’s where all the jokes and jibes come from. The whole birth cert thing is another issue. I changed my name by Deed Pole a few years ago. I didn’t want my kids to have my fathers surname. I didn’t get my birth cert changed all I got was the deed pole and told to use that with the birth cert when the need would arise.
I just wondering if you think trans people that haven’t had the op should be able to change their birthcert? That would seem wrong to me.
I wasn’t able to change the last name on mine so no one should be able. Equal rights and all that.
This isn’t about just changing your name though. If you are asked for a birth cert and there’s a different name on it then the assumption is – oh you changed it / your mother remarried / you were adopted.. When a transgender person is asked to produce their birth cert the reaction is going to be “you used to be a different sex”, which as the commenter above pointed out, could get you discriminated against and there is nothing they can do about it.
Plenty of people have to disclose medical information that can lead them to be discriminated against, but they still have to disclose it.
The person you ARE is more than being just a male or female.
Very interesting article, I have the upmost respect and admiration for the trans community who make transitions in our society where infantile jokes and hostility seem to be the norm. Official Ireland might still be stuck in a time warp attitude wise but hopefully the general public are a bit more emphatic and accepting.
official Ireland has to keep the old system alive for their masters.
We do not.
An insult to who?
“Historical document” my behind. When I signed up for a passport I had to show my Birth Cert, when I applied for my passport, I had to show my Birth Cert and when I applied for my Age Card guess what I had to show? That’s right, my Birth Cert. The fact that it needs to be presented so often is why people want it changed, not to try and edit history or some nonsense. Consider yourself what it would be like, applying for something only to have to present a document stamped in the opposite gender and then having someone look at you with a look that says “what manner of weirdo are you?” or then trying to explain it and then having them become unsure of what to refer to you as, despite the fact you clearly look like the gender you are and then had no issue up until 5 minutes ago.
Of course, being born with genetalia that matched your gender means a person can’t imagine this and so often doesn’t seem to see what the issue is. They were born looking like X and are X, so being born what looked like Y but being X makes no sense to them, their gender has always been linked to what they were born as and so anything else is something they can’t imagine and thus is considered nonsense. I’m tired of this being an issue. -Every- single document I have says “F”, everyone I meet sees a female, my hetrosexual male partner sees a damn female. I’m tired of my gender being some massive debate, just like every other “trans” person is!
Heterosexual partner…… Do you or have you ever ovulated. Do you have ovaries do you have all the natural things that a woman does. I’m sorry I really do not mind trans people but you can feel like a woman even have an op but the underlying issue is your still a man. If I put on a dress am I instantly a female.
@ Ellie.. great to hear a trans person talk some sense here :)
@ Paul.. You really should go and educate yourself before commenting on something you clearly have no knowledge of.
What a load of balls. Psychologicly thinking your a woman does not make it fact. As I have said I have no problem with trans people. It’s just it wouldn’t be so hard on them if they didn’t try to change things that can’t be changed and I am on about laws not anything else.
Are women less than men? Are men better than women?? Are you fearful that these individuals challenge this hegemony? You know there are women that reassign to men too? My opinion is that they are harming no one else so should be respected and allowed live their lives whatever way makes them happy without ignorant bigots inflicting their misinterpreted ideals of what merits masculinity/femininity/lifestyles etc upon them.
Legal documents are changed every day. Even when adopted a person is issued with a new birth cert. so why not issue a new document for the mental and physical well being of another living person and allow them get on with their lives as they see fit.
Women are not less then men. Im just trying to put a logical spin on things but all I get is insulting comments directed at me. If a woman puts in a fake mustache does she become a man. As I said psychologically you can think your a man but it doesn’t make it so.
Paul ur knowledge and depth of this issue is so shallow. It about letting people live their lives as happily and contented as they see fit for themselves. Without harming others. If ur happy in ur sexuality then fair dues. But why the need to spin it any way. The transgender issue goes a lot deeper than ur trivial comments on dresses or moustaches.
@M Bowe. As I said my birthcert wasn’t changed so why should anyone else’s
Well Paul that an issue for you to follow up on for whatever reason that was denied, I neither need nor want to know. But that should not be a reason for denying another person the same opportunity to apply for the same consideration to have theirs amended.
The key word is equal rights. Trans people can live and do what they want. What bothers me is trying to change science to suit someone’s needs and the birth cert thing one should one group of people be able and not another
What happens when a trans man wants to become pregnant? How on earth can you have documents saying you’re a man when at the same time you’re pregnant?
Paul, with respect those comments you have made to a woman who has stated that she is transgender are extremely offensive. You have basically just denigrated Ellie out of your ignorance.
You clearly don’t want to understand. If you did you would try to put yourself in Ellie’s shoes, someone put Ellie down as male when she is clearly female. You do not know Ellie’s specific circumstance, she may have changed, she may have been a hermaphrodite, and you just steam rolled in there with your childish comments about putting on a dress. There’s a hell of a lot more to it than that. There’s transvestism and then there is transgender – they aren’t the same thing, but you seem to think they are.
Basic human nature Shanti. To me it see illogical to assume that someone who convinces themselves to be a woman or man even if the had an op or hormone therapy that they are really are what they think. A lot of these people who say they are woman or men still look like they did before.
Ellie im sorry for jumping to conclusions that was bad form of me.
Thank you for insulting me, Paul. Despite the fact you have never met me, interacted with me or even spoken to me. Thank you for ridiculing my gender and my very identity with no information on who I am, how I was born or how my life has panned out just because you can.
As for your question, no I do not have ovaries. But I not not see what your point is. An aunt of mine had her ovaries and most of her womb removed several years ago due to cancer, are you to say she stopped being a woman? Is being a woman solely deticted by your fertility? If so, are infertile women also to be considered “men”. I hope you’ll forgive me if I take the advice of the many medical experts who have seen fit to declare me female over the rantings of some random internet poster.
You honestly make me sick, Paul. But thank you very much for the insult nontheless.
I said sorry. I think that infertile women where still born women. Is it that hard to explain. If someone is born male then he is male. If someone is born female then they are a female. If some one is born a female but think the are a male guess that still makes them a male. No amount of bullplop on the internet is going to change that or medical experts. Go ask a geneticist what they think.
As for your other statement I did not just “put on a dress” infact I’ve not worn a dress in a very long time, generally I prefer jeans.
I underwent much soul-searching as a child, numerous ( And often painful ) medical procedures, rejection by my mother who threw me out at the age of 17, gone through a second puberty before my first was even finished to develop all the typical female secondary sexual traits and spent many nights considering suicide due to comments such as yours. I did not just put on stereotypical women’s clothes, walk down the street and scream “I’M A WOMAN EVERYONE!!!!” because I am an actual woman, not a stereotype.
I have it quite easy, I’m young and started everything while still in my teens, I have no issues with looking and being treated as female. ( I’m quite sure if we met in person you would not be declaring me a “man”. ). But many people do not have it as easy, and have to deal with comments like yours in person on a regular basis. I can’t imagine how difficult it is for them, and to be honest, I don’t want to. Not with people who think such as you do.
I would appricate it if you saw fit not to demean and make fun of my identity when replying to this.
I have infact asked as geneticist. Her response was to say that DNA is not as simple as “XY” = MAN! AND XX = WOMAN!”. More often than most people would think people are born with verious slight differences on that, but as most people generally don’t get DNA tests it goes un-noticed.
It is also quite possible to be born with DNA that does not match up wit birth genetalia, thus someone deemed male at birth may be “XX” ( Perhaps even yourself, if you’ve never had a DNA test you can’t be sure. ). I’ve never had a DNA test, so I cannot say for sure which I am, but nor can anyone else. I’m not a geneticist myself, so I’m no expert on it. But then I assume neither are you, so I doubt it’s something either of us really has much knowledge on
Presumed identity. Your argument has no basis in scientific fact. Ok here is another explanation if I believe in my head that I am Superman I dress like superman I tell everyone that I’m superman does that make me Superman will the public accept me as superman can I fly without a bag of weed. My whole thing is that people think there something and everyone should just accept it
Will people refer to you as a superman or treat you correctly as a superman? Does superman have a specific set of pronouns or behaviours or socialisations tied to him? No. If you wandered around doing everything as superman people’s reaction would be “Oh look, it’s that crazy bloke in the superman outfit again”. Whereas when I go out, people see a woman, interact with me as such, refer to me as such and generally treat me as such. Because being a woman is a real set of experiences and feelings, being superman is just moronic bullpoo. A real way to think of it was if you woke up tomorrow, looked in the mirror and looked totally female to the point that people treated and refered to you as such. Would you fine that plesent? I doubt it, as I assume you are infact male, so you would try your best to look as such and to be treated as such.
You clearly have no idea what “trans” is. And honestly, you don’t want to. So I give up and won’t be commenting any more, your ignorance is too much and this has upset me more than enough already.
Well that’s not right. Superman has been in people lives for decades. So anyone can become a different gender but I can’t become superman, even if I wear my underpants on the outside and change my name to Clark Kent. Well I think that that is discrimination. How can one set of rules apply to some people but not to others it’s just not fair.
@ Paul Murray, I work in the health service where women who have had breast cancer or uterine cancer have had to have their breasts and wombs removed. Men with testicular or penile cancer have had their testes or pneis surgical removed. In both these cases the woman or man, despite having body parts that are generally accepted as being part of their gender identity removed, still regard themselves as women or men respectively. This is because WHO THEY ARE is not just a physical identity it is a psychological imperative for them – it is their true gender.
When a person is transgender they self-identify as their true gender. The body parts don’t match their identity and this is extremely distressing to them which is why gender realignment surgery is so important. By the way, please keep in mind that many transpeople CANNOT undergo surgery, often due to medical health reasons. They should not be denied their gender recognition certificate when it becomes available because of something beyond their control.
Paul, you have NO IDEA what it is like to be born into a body which does not match your self-identified gender. I don’t know either – but my wife does, and I support her and all trans men and women in their fight for their rights.
All the operations you talk about your still a male or female heading in to them so I would say your the same coming out. It’s all psychological, The whole trapped in a man’s body is your brain thinking that it’s not nature’s fault.
‘All the operations you talk about your still a male or female heading in to them so I would say your the same coming out. It’s all psychological, ‘
EXACTLY! Finally.
Who we are is within our psyche, within the essence that makes us alive. I am happy in my body because my psyche matches my physiology. My feminine identity matches my feminine body.
For transgender people the psyche and the physical are a mismatch, but it is the PSYCHE that controls us, that IS us. As important as the body is, if that psyche determines that we are male or female, then the difficulty comes from the misalignment.
Trangender men and women are seeking to gain the birth certificate to aid them survive a world that is generally hostile to their plight. I am sure that you do not really wish to be a source of pain to trans people – so why not back off, go learn some more details and then come back with a better understanding of their trials.
As I have stated I had to do with a deed pole. Why should some other group be able to get what I’m not. Its the same with same sex marriage. I say let them get married and adopt if I can do it so should they be able.
And a trans person has to do a deed poll as well – it is part of the real life experience, showing that they are committed to living in their real self-identified gender. My wife quietly celebrates that anniversary.
It’s really no one else’s business what gender you are the transgender community go through enough sh”"t would the government ever just legislate !
I don’t see any harm in reissuing an amended birth certificate. And frankly a 40% attempted suicide rate is pretty horrifying. If an amended cert would go some way towards being more inclusive and alleviating that, then I’m all for it.
we were all female once , babies are female for the first 2 months in the womb
im all for equality but DNA dont lie
I hope that’s makeup not some vicious genetic disorder you have :p
If your argument is that XX means female and XY means male what is a person with Kleinfelter’s (XXY)?
What a lot of people who haven’t studied genetics don’t realize is that we are more then the sum of our DNA, and I don’t mean that in a nature vs. nurture way, I mean that there are a host of epigenetic factors that we still don’t understand and that making sweeping judgments on the basis of a junior cert. understanding of biology is a bad idea.
Most people don’t actually get their DNA tested. There are numerous intersex medical conditions where DNA ≠ what people think their gender is.
Its all a load of crap.. Real sh1te…
Your current or previous gender?
The fact that people think its a “human right” to change their gender and then to claim an amended birth certificate to say what their “new” gender is… The clue is in the wording “birth”… This whole thing is to put it very simply unnatural.. You cannot be born a man, change gender and expect a birth cert to be amended to reflect this alteration.. Thats like buying a toyota, registering it as a toyota, making a few changes, putting a bmw badge on it and re-registering it as a bmw… I know thats a simplistic way of looking at it but facts are facts… You cannot change what you are born as.. It is not natural…
Its not natural to attenuate viruses and inject them to induce immunity, but I assume you’re still vaccinated.
What a silly argument David. You don’t have to change your Birth Cert because you get a vaccination.
So Shane is now an expert on science. Sure it’s not natural to take medication. To go on and oxygen ventilator, to smoke, to wear clothes, to fly etc, You get my point?? You’re being a hypocrite ain’t you? We both know you’ve engaged in some of these unnatural occurrences ;)
I don’t understand ur concern in this matter. If I feel myself to to transgender and go through all the far reaching procedures to achieve this to satisfy my mental and physical well being. What has my being issued with a new birth cert to show my gender got to do with you??? Live and let live people…..
What in the world!
Is that a question?
Just shocked that it is apparently a “Human Right” to have a “New” Birth Cert issued. Isn’t a birth cert supposed to show your gender at BIRTH?
Sure ain’t you supposed to wear sunglasses outdoors Carl? World is getting stranger mate :p
Gender isn’t always detectable at birth – sometimes it can take a while to identify the sex of a newborn, and that’s without them being transgender.
Transgender brings a whole set of complications with it – the biggest one being that you can’t ask a newborn what sex it feels like.
What are you smoking pal?
Probably a big fat pink cigar. Jealous?
Are you serious?? I think the genital area of a new-born baby might just give you a clue.. just might… Straight from Kindergarten Cop… Girls have a vagina, Boys have a penis… Does that make explain it? It has nothing to do with what sex the new-born “feels like”…….FFS
My point exactly Carl… You cannot change a material fact like that..
@ Shane ever heard of a hermaphrodite? FFS
Shane really is lacking in the scientific department. There certainly is as previously explained many anomalies of diversity in physical, psychological and sexual normality. There have been cases where doctors unsure of a child’s physical gender at birth have assigned it another. These children grew up confused, hurt and shamed as they identified more with the opposite gender as ‘nature’ intended. Tragically some ended their own lives as they couldn’t handle living their lives according to societal ‘norms’.
@Shane Florish, Biology is considerably more complicated than that. It is possible for an embryo to not produce testosterone or lack the ability to respond to it. In which case the baby would be born with a female body-type, even if it had male genetics. It is possible for a child to be born with ambiguous genitalia, where the baby can have characteristics of both male and female genitalia, and usually an operation is preformed to assign the child to one gender or the other.
Perhaps the understanding of biology you gained from kindergarten cop was a little sparse on actual subtleties that the real world contains?
Listen people, being transgender is not simply a matter of ‘putting on a dress’. To qualify for gender realignment surgery a person must receive an offical diagnosis of gender identity disorder – they have to visit a psycholigist numerous times; a psychiatrist at least twice; endocrinologists, sociologists etc for hormones and other medications; they have to undergo a 2-year ‘real-life test before they get anywhere NEAR a surgical referral, including changing their name by deed poll. They also have to negotiate their change at work, which can often result in a loss of job – Louise has shown us all how hard that can be. They also have to negotiate their way through the changes affecting their families – the majority of marriage do not survive the transgender person’s life changes.
All of this is painful, harrowing yet if successful, ultimately liberating. If, after they survive all of this crap, some of you STILL want to make stupid judgement against them by making sweeping blase statements regarding their gender identity then all I can say is – you are morons because you really know NOTHING about what they have been through and you will never have enough brain cells to even get CLOSE to understanding.
We are all moron’s because we disagree with you’re argument and your a moron to me for disagreeing with mine. You even said in the argument you use that it is psychological that’s what I have been saying all along. The matter at hand is a birthcert is a recorded document of what you were born and named just because you have an identity crisis at some point later on does not change what you were born. Insulting peoples intelligence because you think that you are right is just another example of internet warrior syndrome gone wrong
Paul, I very rarely insult people within an internet discussion and my (admittedly heated) comments come from my increasing frustration with the repetitive diminution of the legal and social hurdles that transpeople have to face by those who do not comprehend.
I have been married for nearly 28 years. My spouse and I never expected what has happened to our lives. Dealing with her trans status was frightening to us as when we were living in a time without the immediate availability of the internet and with little or no resources by which to learn what being trans MEANT. Add to this a young family and you will understand how complicated our life was.
Now my wife is post-surgery and female. SHe IS female and I love her still. Her immediate family are not so supportive and to spare an elderly parent the ‘embarrassment’ of having a ‘daughter’, my wife has to avoid social gatherings on that side of the family. That hurts her, I know.
The proposed legislation in its present form, as welcome as ANY legislation would be, will not allow any transperson who is married or in a civil partnership to change their birth certificate. As I said, surviving marriages are rare and now they want us to divorce just so that she can get her official documentation in line!? By the way, the new certificate would not mean that the old one on file in the registrars’ office would be torn up – the new cert would be amended to the original legal document. The new cert would however allow the trans person to live a better life without being exposed to legal and social prejudice.
So no, I shouldn’t have been so sharp – but when the delays are running into decades and yes, when being transgender is so misunderstood, then sometimes it is very hard to bite one’s tongue, even through the medium of the internet.
There is no excuse for the family cutting her off. If my son came home and said he was gay or wants to be a woman I would support him because he is still my son. I guess what really got to me today was the whole birth cert thing I really wanted my old surname gone but they can’t do it for me. So if another group of people might be able under new legislation I guesd it pee’s me off Fair play to you and your wife you have opened my eyes a bit tonight
The UN Human Rights Committee states that the state should “recognise the right of transgender persons to a change of gender by permitting the issuance of new birth certificates”. I think this is part of the problem in Ireland. I’m not sure what occurs in other jurisdictions, but if you ever actually looked at an Irish birth certificate it does not mention gender. It mentions sex. Sex and gender are very similar concepts but with different meanings. These two are often confused, and it appears many commentors here either don’t know the difference (and I don’t mean that as an insult as I myself am not 100% clear on these types of distinctions when it comes to identity) between the two, or are unaware of what is actually described on a birth certificate. Surely, the best way to handle birth certificates would be to only describe those features and facts that are permanent, rather than transitional or temporary. E.g. we don’t have eye colour on a birth certificate as the eyes can, and usually do, change colour over time. On top of everything, sex and gender are concepts far more complex than a simple “male” or “female” mark on a birth certificate, and, even leaving the scientific description behind, doctors are only human can make, and have made, mistakes.
Why don’t we just remove the sex/gender section in birth certificates? This way there will be no need to “alter” documents in the future. As for those people already issued with birth certificates: personally, I don’t see any reason why we can’t allow this. Just like any record which is altered, there will be a record of this alteration, but it won’t be displayed on the actual amended birth certificate, which means the original document’s contents are maintained, but the person requiring the amendment no longer has to produce a document which displays the “wrong” sex/gender.
There should be no gender recorded on birth certificates. It’s entirely irrelevant. Equality for all people, cheers.
Intrigued by those who proclaim to understand what is a ‘fact’ and what is ‘historical’ fact. @Paul – I assume you think that only the State can determine what is fact & only the State is infallible in its determination! Just how much of a fascist State would you prefer to live in?
Goodwins law buddy. The state does not decide what gender you are that’s just silly what decides your gender is what you are born with and others genetic deciding factors. Silly man on about fascist.
No! A determination is made based on a visual observation by a medical person. That visual determination is included on the birth certificate – that agent of the state determines at that point in time what then becomes what your calling ‘fact’ – after that point in time the State will not alter this ‘fact’ even on the basis of other evidence AND even if it is wrong. So if you follow you’re argument you are actually advocating State infallibility. I guess it’s easy to dismiss arguments as silly so you don’t have to engage with them.
And just to comment on Goodwins Law – first off its not a ‘law’ – but it’s interesting you try to reply on it so as not to deal with the specific point made.. It serves to illustrate how you’re arguments throughout the thread have be based on dubious logic and ‘laws’
Yeah I want the government to come into my house and decide im a girl. I’m sure this is what the globalists have in mind for world domination.
All Babies are Female for the first 2 months in the womb
Ah bell better change my birthcert
have your say